"A new age of shamelessness" | Slavoj Žižek on Trump, authoritarians and "the new left"
Interview · BBC Politics ·
2025-04-18 · 0:17:25 · 2,365 words
geopolitics-warcapitalismideologydemocracyrevolution-violencefascism-populismliberalism-political-correctness
Žižek analyzes the political shift from neoliberalism to a new geopolitical order characterized by three superpowers, arguing that Trump's rise exposes the failure of liberal democracy. He critiques the modern left for its focus on identity politics and performative protest, advocating instead for a 'charismatic authoritarian' approach similar to FDR's militarization and economic control. The excerpt concludes with a provocative call for a 'leftist Trump', a decisive, pragmatic leader who can manage a controlled market while preserving democracy.
every located moment in this recording, click one to read it
The ideas in it 10
in the order they first come up; click a row for what he does with the idea here
A strategy Žižek attributes to the Democratic Party, which he claims distracted from the 'wide popular discontent' of the working class.
as “globalization”
The economic system of the neoliberal era where the US profited by keeping dollars within its sphere, now collapsing under the pressure of Chinese competition.
The current historical epoch defined by globalization and US oligarchic exploitation, which Žižek argues has reached its end due to the rise of China and Trump's reaction to it.
as “charismatic authoritarian”
A figure Žižek argues the left needs: not a dictator, but a strong leader like FDR who can ignore Congress and drive militarization/economic production through decisive, almost dictatorial force.
as “morning after”
The practical, material reality for ordinary people three months after a protest or political event, which Žižek prioritizes over the 'orgasm' of mass protest.
as “neo-conservative left”
A paradoxical concept where the left adopts the right's discipline: global organization, market control, and speaking for 'common decency' and the 'moral majority' rather than subversive irony.
as “postmodern relativist”
A label Žižek applies to Trump, describing him as someone who makes jokes of himself and changes positions, contrasting him with the 'consistent' Bernie Sanders.
Žižek's dismissal of the modern left's reliance on irony, postmodernism, and subversion, which he argues has been co-opted by the new right.
as “age of shamelessness”
The current geopolitical reality where big powers (US, Russia, China) act without hypocritical justification, openly dividing spheres of influence.
Žižek's final provocation: a hypothetical leader who acts with Trump's decisiveness and speed but for leftist goals, akin to FDR's successful militarization and economic management.
Stories he reaches for 4
Žižek describes Biden's inauguration as a 'fake, false spectacle' that falsely implied Trump was an 'abomination' and an 'accident,' ignoring the deeper structural truths Trump exposed about liberal democracy.
“It was a fake, false spectacle which implied that Trump was just an abomination, accident. He'd gone.”
Žižek compares Trump and Bernie Sanders, arguing Trump is a 'pure postmodern relativist' who changes positions, while Sanders is a 'common decent consistent man,' suggesting the left should stop being subversive and embrace consistency.
“Compare persons like Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders. Donald Trump as a person isn't he a pure postmodern relativist... Bernie Sanders is a common decent consistent man.”
Žižek quotes Lenin (1921) to argue that when revolution gets stuck, one must 'descend back to zero point and start to climb the mountain from a totally different direction,' implying the left must abandon its current ironic/subversive stance.
“Lenin who said in '21 when revolution gets stuck it's not enough to just stop and rethink situation. You have to descend back to zero point and start to climb the mountain from a totally different direction.”
Žižek ironically notes that the January 6th Capitol attack looked like a 'leftist dream' of 'united people penetrate[ing] the seat of power,' but highlights the tragedy that the right took this tactic from the left.
“My friends were crying because they said isn't this the leftist dream, united people penetrate the seat of power.”
Works invoked 1
1984 book
Žižek distrusts Orwell's vision personally but uses the book's geopolitical model (Oceania, Eurasia, Eastasia) to accurately describe the current world order of three superpowers.
People invoked 9
Kamala Harris negative
Žižek states 'Nothing against Kamala Harris' but criticizes her inability to articulate a response to popular discontent.
Vladimir Lenin positive
Žižek quotes Lenin's 1921 advice to 'descend back to zero point' as a directive for the left to restart its strategy from a different direction.
Donald Trump positive
Žižek views Trump as a 'pure postmodern relativist' and an 'abomination' personally, but intellectually uses him to expose the failure of liberal democracy and the new geopolitical reality.
Žižek mentions Farage as a figure known outside the UK whose small number of MPs commands significant support, illustrating the lack of dominant figures in the UK.
George Orwell positive
Žižek says 'I don't quite trust Orwell's vision' personally but admits 'in one point he was terrifyingly right' regarding the three-superpower geopolitical structure.
Bernie Sanders positive
Žižek contrasts Sanders with Trump, describing him as a 'common decent consistent man' to highlight the left's need for consistency rather than postmodern relativism.
Joe Biden negative
Žižek dismisses Biden's inauguration as a 'fake, false spectacle' that masked the reality of Trump's rise.
Žižek groups Putin with Trump as part of the new 'age of shamelessness' where powers divide spheres of influence (Ukraine, Georgia) without justification.
Franklin Delano Roosevelt positive
Žižek cites FDR as a model for a 'charismatic authoritarian' who successfully used militarization to boost civilian production, serving as a positive example for the left.
Transcript 33 turns
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What crossroads have we reached? Where are we in world history and how quickly
What crossroads have we reached? Where are we in world history and how quickly
Slavoj Žižek
has it changed? I think that the situation is tragic but it gives some hope. Tragic in the sense that you know the left was babbling all the time about neoliberalism, we have to go out of leave behind neoliberalism, Trump did it! Something radically new is emerging. We had after World War II the Bretton Woods era, early welfare state. The rules-based order. Then we had neoliberalism where what the US are complaining now. Globalization. Importing, yes, yeah. But this US tremendously profited from it because most of the dollars remain, but that's another story. But now it reached the end because of the success of China
has it changed? I think that the situation is tragic but it gives some hope. Tragic in the sense that you know the left was babbling all the time about neoliberalism, we have to go out of leave behind neoliberalism, Trump did it! Something radically new is emerging. We had after World War II the Bretton Woods era, early welfare state. The rules-based order. Then we had neoliberalism where what the US are complaining now. Globalization. Importing, yes, yeah. But this US tremendously profited from it because most of the dollars remain, but that's another story. But now it reached the end because of the success of China
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and so on. So we're saying that Donald Trump accelerated a change in the global order that was coming anyway? Yeah, accelerated, but you know what was the tragedy?
and so on. So we're saying that Donald Trump accelerated a change in the global order that was coming anyway? Yeah, accelerated, but you know what was the tragedy?
Slavoj Žižek
That not only the left, but even this moderate liberal left didn't get this. For me, the sign that we are doomed was, do you remember inauguration of Biden? This is America's day. This is democracy's day. A day of history and hope, of renewal and resolve. It was a fake, false spectacle which implied that Trump was just an abomination, accident. He'd gone. It's gone. No. Now with the repetition, it's clear that Trump got some things more correctly than the liberal democratic
That not only the left, but even this moderate liberal left didn't get this. For me, the sign that we are doomed was, do you remember inauguration of Biden? This is America's day. This is democracy's day. A day of history and hope, of renewal and resolve. It was a fake, false spectacle which implied that Trump was just an abomination, accident. He'd gone. It's gone. No. Now with the repetition, it's clear that Trump got some things more correctly than the liberal democratic
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left. Yes, because here's what is forgotten by the critics. It's a competitive choice in a democracy and the voters were offered this changemaking Trump or Joe Biden who could not talk, walk or ride a bicycle. Why is, why do we criticize voters for choosing the changemaker? Why are people so obsessed with criticizing the voters in a democracy?
left. Yes, because here's what is forgotten by the critics. It's a competitive choice in a democracy and the voters were offered this changemaking Trump or Joe Biden who could not talk, walk or ride a bicycle. Why is, why do we criticize voters for choosing the changemaker? Why are people so obsessed with criticizing the voters in a democracy?
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We, the citizens of America, are now joined in a great national effort to rebuild our country and restore its promise for all of our people.
We, the citizens of America, are now joined in a great national effort to rebuild our country and restore its promise for all of our people.
Slavoj Žižek
I understand voters because again the Democratic Party played this really upper-middle-class games of identity politics and all that stuff, while there was a wide popular discontent which they didn't really
I understand voters because again the Democratic Party played this really upper-middle-class games of identity politics and all that stuff, while there was a wide popular discontent which they didn't really
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address. So the people who did some of the best work for Donald Trump are the US Democrat Party? Absolutely. Look at the debates
address. So the people who did some of the best work for Donald Trump are the US Democrat Party? Absolutely. Look at the debates
Slavoj Žižek
that preceded the last election. Nothing against Kamala Harris, but you couldn't even get out of her a
that preceded the last election. Nothing against Kamala Harris, but you couldn't even get out of her a
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serious clear statement. Now this is the thing because you took a lot of fire in because you said I imagine that voting for Trump will produce an awakening on the left. So you were criticized around the world. You appeared to be saying vote Donald. So are you pleased that you've got the Donald in the White House? But is there an awakening on the left that you wanted? Has it started? There was a little bit. Remember that so-called democratic socialism. I don't want to talk about democratic socialism. I want to ask you in the United States do you see an awakening on the left? It did happen. Socialism became through Bernie Sanders and so on an option. But I what disappointed me was that I knew that history is on the side of
serious clear statement. Now this is the thing because you took a lot of fire in because you said I imagine that voting for Trump will produce an awakening on the left. So you were criticized around the world. You appeared to be saying vote Donald. So are you pleased that you've got the Donald in the White House? But is there an awakening on the left that you wanted? Has it started? There was a little bit. Remember that so-called democratic socialism. I don't want to talk about democratic socialism. I want to ask you in the United States do you see an awakening on the left? It did happen. Socialism became through Bernie Sanders and so on an option. But I what disappointed me was that I knew that history is on the side of
Slavoj Žižek
Trump. My very dangerous wager was if we let him take power now before he fully formulated his vision, maybe people will feel what he is and turn against him.
Trump. My very dangerous wager was if we let him take power now before he fully formulated his vision, maybe people will feel what he is and turn against him.
unknown
But it didn't work. Okay, so can we say about America before we leave America, has it got early onset autocracy? Yes, but you know where I am more of a pessimist. Yes, but the key point is to see that Trump is nonetheless a symptom, a reaction
But it didn't work. Okay, so can we say about America before we leave America, has it got early onset autocracy? Yes, but you know where I am more of a pessimist. Yes, but the key point is to see that Trump is nonetheless a symptom, a reaction
Slavoj Žižek
to the failure of the mainstream welfare state liberal democratic capitalism. And the failure of the globalists to
to the failure of the mainstream welfare state liberal democratic capitalism. And the failure of the globalists to
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spread the booty.
spread the booty.
Slavoj Žižek
They make the billionaires
They make the billionaires
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did very well from globalization but the American steelworkers, the American carmakers, they did not boom like the billionaires boomed. It was an inequity has given us the problem. No and here Trump
did very well from globalization but the American steelworkers, the American carmakers, they did not boom like the billionaires boomed. It was an inequity has given us the problem. No and here Trump
Slavoj Žižek
is right. The situation in neoliberalism was American oligarchs exploiting
is right. The situation in neoliberalism was American oligarchs exploiting
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Chinese workers. And American workers at the same time. They did the double, didn't they? Because they...
Chinese workers. And American workers at the same time. They did the double, didn't they? Because they...
Slavoj Žižek
Yeah, but also many of them were unemployed and so on. They didn't find... but I think Trump's illusion is that as it was often noted, that it's possible a kind of a return to the 50s, factories in the United States and so on. I think that capitalism is... that type of capitalism is over. But you know what really worries me? Now I move from Trump to the world. Yeah, we need to do that. Yeah, that I saw here at the entrance to this house a statue of George Orwell. You did. I met you near it. Yeah. I don't quite trust Orwell's vision of But in one point he was terrifyingly right. You know the geopolitical situation in Three big superpowers, each has its sphere of influence. Oceania, United States, United Kingdom; then you have Eurasia; and you have China. This is where we are now. That's the horror today. That's why Trump and Putin even where they don't agree, they speak the same language. Like the deal is you Trump do what you want more or less with Greenland, Canada, I do what I want in Ukraine, Gruzia, Georgia and so on. And I think Europe is caught in between, divided. So I am here a pessimist in the sense that Europe not only should do it but it's condemned to become to a superpower, to act as a superpower. Even if this means, I have no illusion about China, but even if this means at least a temporary at the trade level pact with China.
Yeah, but also many of them were unemployed and so on. They didn't find... but I think Trump's illusion is that as it was often noted, that it's possible a kind of a return to the 50s, factories in the United States and so on. I think that capitalism is... that type of capitalism is over. But you know what really worries me? Now I move from Trump to the world. Yeah, we need to do that. Yeah, that I saw here at the entrance to this house a statue of George Orwell. You did. I met you near it. Yeah. I don't quite trust Orwell's vision of But in one point he was terrifyingly right. You know the geopolitical situation in Three big superpowers, each has its sphere of influence. Oceania, United States, United Kingdom; then you have Eurasia; and you have China. This is where we are now. That's the horror today. That's why Trump and Putin even where they don't agree, they speak the same language. Like the deal is you Trump do what you want more or less with Greenland, Canada, I do what I want in Ukraine, Gruzia, Georgia and so on. And I think Europe is caught in between, divided. So I am here a pessimist in the sense that Europe not only should do it but it's condemned to become to a superpower, to act as a superpower. Even if this means, I have no illusion about China, but even if this means at least a temporary at the trade level pact with China.
unknown
Right, now there you are you see because the country that is most free to act in all of this is the UK because there is a problem for the EU moving swiftly as we know. The UK could choose between Europe and China and the United States. Do you think it's inevitable that Keir Starmer is at a fork in the road? He's trying to play all sides but will he have to choose? You know in short term up to a certain point you can play this game but in the long term you lose. And what should who should he choose? What should he choose? If he can do... I think absolutely Europe and China with... But we voted to Brexit. We told Brussels push off with your mission creep. This is a similar message to the Beltway was sent by American voters. The British voters marginally said we wanted away with your big Brussels, we want more control. But as it is clear now the alternative to to Europe is not big sovereign
Right, now there you are you see because the country that is most free to act in all of this is the UK because there is a problem for the EU moving swiftly as we know. The UK could choose between Europe and China and the United States. Do you think it's inevitable that Keir Starmer is at a fork in the road? He's trying to play all sides but will he have to choose? You know in short term up to a certain point you can play this game but in the long term you lose. And what should who should he choose? What should he choose? If he can do... I think absolutely Europe and China with... But we voted to Brexit. We told Brussels push off with your mission creep. This is a similar message to the Beltway was sent by American voters. The British voters marginally said we wanted away with your big Brussels, we want more control. But as it is clear now the alternative to to Europe is not big sovereign
Slavoj Žižek
United Kingdom. It's United Kingdom as de facto in some sense a colony of the United States. So will will Donald Trump be an accelerant for bringing a new European unity that is post-EU? I'm not saying that the EU will... Let's hope. I'm more of a pessimist because I think he is already in full accordance with Putin disuniting splitting Europe. Will the EU fracture? Do we know as Europeans what
United Kingdom. It's United Kingdom as de facto in some sense a colony of the United States. So will will Donald Trump be an accelerant for bringing a new European unity that is post-EU? I'm not saying that the EU will... Let's hope. I'm more of a pessimist because I think he is already in full accordance with Putin disuniting splitting Europe. Will the EU fracture? Do we know as Europeans what
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vision we have of our political
vision we have of our political
Slavoj Žižek
unity? Do we know it yet and
unity? Do we know it yet and
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will the EU
will the EU
Slavoj Žižek
fracture?
fracture?
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We don't know it yet which is why
We don't know it yet which is why
Slavoj Žižek
surprisingly for a leftist I am in favor of militarization, arms and so on. I don't believe in this pseudo-leftist bullshit. You have to choose either arms or or butter or whatever. Yeah, trade. Listen, one so I will surprise you even more. I think the left needs, sorry for saying this, a leftist not dictator but charismatic authoritarian person. They already had it. I know that they're not the same, I'm not crazy. But look at FDR, Roosevelt. He de facto ruled as not as a dictator but he was so strong that he ignored the Congress and with investing especially with World War II into arms, this didn't diminish the consumerist production. In '45 even if you discount take away all military production, the production of civilian consumers was higher than ever. So if you do militarization in an intelligent way it can help boost production. But what Europe doesn't have is it's not just enough to militarize. You have to have a clear political vision. You know what I really hate? I hope we'll agree. This leftist who whose orgasm is my God one million people on the main square all protesting. I don't care about that. What interest me is interest me is what you call I think in English or American the morning after. How will actual people feel the difference three months later when things return to normal. And here the new left will have to be really in a good sense pragmatic in the sense of not making this crazy nationalize this do that, but like Chinese allow free market but nonetheless control it, regulate it and we have models. Singapore, China up to a point and so on. The challenge of Europe is a very simple one. How to do this controlled market with nonetheless democracy surviving. That's the big choice. Right. But the figures that are best known to the outside the borders are from the right. Nigel Farage has has got to a situation where his small number of MPs in the UK Parliament has a third of the support or at least it has percent... But that's the tragedy of the United Kingdom. Well we're not a tragic country. We are a country with a democracy and we have the ruling party has percent, the old Conservatives has percent and the Reform Party has percent of the support at the moment. And that proves my point is there is no dominant figure from from politics at the moment in our own country let alone in the countries of the EU. But nonetheless I think that what gives me
surprisingly for a leftist I am in favor of militarization, arms and so on. I don't believe in this pseudo-leftist bullshit. You have to choose either arms or or butter or whatever. Yeah, trade. Listen, one so I will surprise you even more. I think the left needs, sorry for saying this, a leftist not dictator but charismatic authoritarian person. They already had it. I know that they're not the same, I'm not crazy. But look at FDR, Roosevelt. He de facto ruled as not as a dictator but he was so strong that he ignored the Congress and with investing especially with World War II into arms, this didn't diminish the consumerist production. In '45 even if you discount take away all military production, the production of civilian consumers was higher than ever. So if you do militarization in an intelligent way it can help boost production. But what Europe doesn't have is it's not just enough to militarize. You have to have a clear political vision. You know what I really hate? I hope we'll agree. This leftist who whose orgasm is my God one million people on the main square all protesting. I don't care about that. What interest me is interest me is what you call I think in English or American the morning after. How will actual people feel the difference three months later when things return to normal. And here the new left will have to be really in a good sense pragmatic in the sense of not making this crazy nationalize this do that, but like Chinese allow free market but nonetheless control it, regulate it and we have models. Singapore, China up to a point and so on. The challenge of Europe is a very simple one. How to do this controlled market with nonetheless democracy surviving. That's the big choice. Right. But the figures that are best known to the outside the borders are from the right. Nigel Farage has has got to a situation where his small number of MPs in the UK Parliament has a third of the support or at least it has percent... But that's the tragedy of the United Kingdom. Well we're not a tragic country. We are a country with a democracy and we have the ruling party has percent, the old Conservatives has percent and the Reform Party has percent of the support at the moment. And that proves my point is there is no dominant figure from from politics at the moment in our own country let alone in the countries of the EU. But nonetheless I think that what gives me
unknown
hope is this very chaos. Because this chaos it's tragic situation people are aware of it and I hope that there will be enough popular dissatisfaction in Europe with Trumpian alternative to neo-globalism and that something out of this dissatisfaction will emerge. But the left has to get rid absolutely of first of this old welfare state social democratic dream that's over. Because you end up with Keir Starmer. Can I be very brutal here and I'm not against him personally. Isn't it that the UK has today one big center center-right moderate party? It's called Labour
hope is this very chaos. Because this chaos it's tragic situation people are aware of it and I hope that there will be enough popular dissatisfaction in Europe with Trumpian alternative to neo-globalism and that something out of this dissatisfaction will emerge. But the left has to get rid absolutely of first of this old welfare state social democratic dream that's over. Because you end up with Keir Starmer. Can I be very brutal here and I'm not against him personally. Isn't it that the UK has today one big center center-right moderate party? It's called Labour
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Party. And then it has some rightist
Party. And then it has some rightist
Slavoj Žižek
marginal parties. So the first thing for the left to realize is I'm sorry to provoke you to quote Lenin who said in '21 when revolution gets stuck it's not enough to just stop and rethink situation. You have to descend back to zero point and start to climb the mountain from a totally different direction. That's what left has to do and I'm very open here we don't have time to go into it. For example enough of this postmodernism, irony and so on. The new right took this from us. The new left should be literally neo-conservative left in the sense of yes it's global organization control the market. But at the same time we should speak now for moral majority, common decency and so on. The new right is obscene enough. That's why for me the mega tragedy was you remember 6th of January five years ago. My friends were crying because they said isn't this the leftist dream, united people penetrate the seat of power. Yes, sorry they took even this from us. So isn't the paradox in this? Compare persons like Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders. Donald Trump as a person isn't he a pure postmodern relativist making jokes of himself, changing position? Bernie Sanders is a common decent consistent man. I think it's time, it's horrible what I'm saying, for the left to stop with this subversive bullshit and so on. We are entering with this new Orwellian order it's a new age of shamelessness. Big powers do what they want want because they can. They don't even feel this hypocritical need to somehow justify it. You have brought me near the end of our time. You've brought me near I think your unifying view. This new age of shamelessness. And
marginal parties. So the first thing for the left to realize is I'm sorry to provoke you to quote Lenin who said in '21 when revolution gets stuck it's not enough to just stop and rethink situation. You have to descend back to zero point and start to climb the mountain from a totally different direction. That's what left has to do and I'm very open here we don't have time to go into it. For example enough of this postmodernism, irony and so on. The new right took this from us. The new left should be literally neo-conservative left in the sense of yes it's global organization control the market. But at the same time we should speak now for moral majority, common decency and so on. The new right is obscene enough. That's why for me the mega tragedy was you remember 6th of January five years ago. My friends were crying because they said isn't this the leftist dream, united people penetrate the seat of power. Yes, sorry they took even this from us. So isn't the paradox in this? Compare persons like Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders. Donald Trump as a person isn't he a pure postmodern relativist making jokes of himself, changing position? Bernie Sanders is a common decent consistent man. I think it's time, it's horrible what I'm saying, for the left to stop with this subversive bullshit and so on. We are entering with this new Orwellian order it's a new age of shamelessness. Big powers do what they want want because they can. They don't even feel this hypocritical need to somehow justify it. You have brought me near the end of our time. You've brought me near I think your unifying view. This new age of shamelessness. And
unknown
it reminds me as a student of history and you're a leading thinker but I study study the history, this is the past. That's what we had before. It led to war and reorder and the rules-based order that followed the Second World War and the generation like my father who came out of that war, they had seen what war was so they knew what peace was. I think what we've looking at is complacent voters. Are we not people who took so much for granted? Why should America pay for Germany's defense in Why should the Europeans pay less than the three percent of NATO? The Europeans are shown by history are they not to have been smug. In the new age of shamelessness were smug Europeans who wanted American voters to pay for their defense. That's what history will show the Europeans. Absolutely. That's why I always emphasize this. Don't dismiss Trump just as a confused idiot. And don't just criticize Trump. Yeah, he his points about this trade imbalance about how Europe plays its small game by always secretly relying on the American umbrella and so on. Here Trump is right. Liberal democrats are just they didn't propose anything new. They just
it reminds me as a student of history and you're a leading thinker but I study study the history, this is the past. That's what we had before. It led to war and reorder and the rules-based order that followed the Second World War and the generation like my father who came out of that war, they had seen what war was so they knew what peace was. I think what we've looking at is complacent voters. Are we not people who took so much for granted? Why should America pay for Germany's defense in Why should the Europeans pay less than the three percent of NATO? The Europeans are shown by history are they not to have been smug. In the new age of shamelessness were smug Europeans who wanted American voters to pay for their defense. That's what history will show the Europeans. Absolutely. That's why I always emphasize this. Don't dismiss Trump just as a confused idiot. And don't just criticize Trump. Yeah, he his points about this trade imbalance about how Europe plays its small game by always secretly relying on the American umbrella and so on. Here Trump is right. Liberal democrats are just they didn't propose anything new. They just
unknown
repeat the old mantra let's return to social
repeat the old mantra let's return to social
Slavoj Žižek
democratic welfare state. That will not work. I the only hope is that this obvious void felt by people will give birth to something. And I'm ready to go pretty far here. This something can even be, now you have the final provocation, this something could even be a leftist Trump. When by Trump we mean somebody who acts decisively in a fast way like Franklin Delano Roosevelt who did it ultra-successfully. We must say to you thank you very much indeed.
democratic welfare state. That will not work. I the only hope is that this obvious void felt by people will give birth to something. And I'm ready to go pretty far here. This something can even be, now you have the final provocation, this something could even be a leftist Trump. When by Trump we mean somebody who acts decisively in a fast way like Franklin Delano Roosevelt who did it ultra-successfully. We must say to you thank you very much indeed.