Jon Ronson and Slavoj Zizek discuss psychopaths on Q&A
Debate · abcqanda ·
published 2011-10-06 · 0:03:48 · 636 words
with Jon Ronson, Tony Jones
the date above is when the video was uploaded, no recording date was found
historyideologyreligion-theologyfascism-populism
Žižek examines the banality of evil by analyzing Reinhard Heydrich's appreciation of high culture, specifically Beethoven, to argue that evil can coexist with aesthetic refinement. He extends this argument to Japanese Zen Buddhism during WWII, citing D.T. Suzuki's justification of murder through the lens of 'no-self' and cosmic detachment, questioning whether such figures are merely psychopaths or representatives of a deeper ideological failure.
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The ideas in it 3
in the order they first come up; click a row for what he does with the idea here
The capacity for extreme evil to coexist with mundane, even refined, behaviors like listening to Beethoven, as seen in Heydrich.
as “no-self”
The Buddhist concept used by Suzuki to justify murder: if one has no self, one is merely a passive observer of 'dancing' phenomena, removing moral agency.
as “cosmic dance of phenomena”
Žižek's rendering of Suzuki's justification for killing, where the victim's eye 'stumbling upon' the knife is framed as an impersonal cosmic event rather than a personal act of violence.
Stories he reaches for 2
D.T. Suzuki justifies killing in war by claiming that through enlightenment, one sees no self; the killer is just a passive observer watching the 'knife dance' and the victim's eye stumbling upon it.
“my knife is dancing around, and in the cosmic dance of phenomena your eye seems to stumble upon it.”
Reinhard Heydrich, organizer of the Holocaust, spent his evenings listening to Beethoven's string quartets with his SS friends, illustrating that evil does not preclude appreciation for high culture.
“He gathered with his SS friends. Even better, Beethoven's string quartet.”
Works invoked 1
Zen at War book
Described as 'the Bible' for understanding the complicity of Zen Buddhism in Japanese militarism.
People invoked 4
Brian Victoria positive
Author of 'Zen at War', cited as a 'Bible' for understanding how Zen Buddhists supported Japanese expansionism.
Ludwig van Beethoven positive
Referenced as the music Heydrich listened to, highlighting the contrast between aesthetic refinement and moral evil.
D. T. Suzuki negative
Described as a 'propagator' who supported invasion; his justification of murder via 'no-self' is presented as psychopathic.
Reinhard Heydrich positive
Cited as an example of evil who enjoyed Beethoven, used to illustrate the tragic lesson of history.
Transcript 15 turns
Jon Ronson
Hitler and Stalin, psychopaths.
Hitler and Stalin, psychopaths.
Tony Jones
Well, I think, you know, if you've got a kind of grotesque costume, a kind of uniform that's kind of garish, plus a penchant for genocide, that's a big clue. So if you get them on to the subject of empathy, what they hate is weakness. They hate weakness. And so if you can get them to talk about how empathy really is a weakness, that's a big clue. drunk with power. I don't want people to read either my book or the Hare Checklist and become like I did a power-crazed psychopath spotter because that can turn you a little bit psychopathic. So be slightly wary of that.
Well, I think, you know, if you've got a kind of grotesque costume, a kind of uniform that's kind of garish, plus a penchant for genocide, that's a big clue. So if you get them on to the subject of empathy, what they hate is weakness. They hate weakness. And so if you can get them to talk about how empathy really is a weakness, that's a big clue. drunk with power. I don't want people to read either my book or the Hare Checklist and become like I did a power-crazed psychopath spotter because that can turn you a little bit psychopathic. So be slightly wary of that.
Slavoj Žižek
Let's hear it from this very panel.
Let's hear it from this very panel.
Tony Jones
Kate was going to
Kate was going to
Jon Ronson
What does it profit us to actually label people as psychopaths, to actually analyze and say they are psychopaths, partly because to me you seem to be describing the kind of ruthless bastards who get to the top in every kind of walk of life.
What does it profit us to actually label people as psychopaths, to actually analyze and say they are psychopaths, partly because to me you seem to be describing the kind of ruthless bastards who get to the top in every kind of walk of life.
Slavoj Žižek
Yes.
Yes.
Jon Ronson
And if you're going to label them and say these are psychopaths, what are you going to propose to do about it? Do they live in a pen somewhere saying, don't let them out, don't give them something to write?
And if you're going to label them and say these are psychopaths, what are you going to propose to do about it? Do they live in a pen somewhere saying, don't let them out, don't give them something to write?
Tony Jones
No, no, you don't do that. And in fact, they are trying to do that in America. They are trying to. People who are coming up for parole are being scored on the psychopath test.
No, no, you don't do that. And in fact, they are trying to do that in America. They are trying to. People who are coming up for parole are being scored on the psychopath test.
Jon Ronson
I'm sorry, Mr President. Yeah.
I'm sorry, Mr President. Yeah.
Tony Jones
No, I totally agree with you. Labeling is clearly in our society a tyrannical and problematic thing. However, psychopathy exists.
No, I totally agree with you. Labeling is clearly in our society a tyrannical and problematic thing. However, psychopathy exists.
Jon Ronson
And you say, no, no, no.
And you say, no, no, no.
Tony Jones
cured and the evidence is that it can't be cured unless you get better data once you've got them what do you think about that No, I have an answer to that.
cured and the evidence is that it can't be cured unless you get better data once you've got them what do you think about that No, I have an answer to that.
Slavoj Žižek
I see things in a much more Would you agree or not? It's a so-called serious question. When we talk about people like Hitler and so on.
I see things in a much more Would you agree or not? It's a so-called serious question. When we talk about people like Hitler and so on.
Tony Jones
Hm.
Hm.
Slavoj Žižek
Listen, I read a book on the history of SS, SS German. and especially a chapter on Reinhard Heydrich. He organized, you know, Wannsee conference, Holocaust, and so on. What strikes me so much is that, you know, what this guy, if there ever was a evil guy in his team, you know what he was doing in the evenings? He gathered with his SS friends. Even better, Beethoven's string quartet. And I think that's the really tragic, depressing thing. You cannot say, oh, they must have gotten it wrong or whatever. No, the tragic lesson of history is, and I can go on through like read a book which is the Bible for me, Brian Victoria, a Zen monk. It's called Zen at War. It demonstrates how the large majority of Zen Buddhists in Japan, not only totally supported Japanese military expansionism, but provided the properly Zen Buddhist justification for it. To amuse you very shortly, you know D.T. Daisetz Teitaro Suzuki, when we are young hippies, the glorious propagator in the hippie West of Buddhism. He not only fully supported Japanese invasion of China, but he faced this problem. I have to kill you in war. He said, if I remain caught in the illusion of my ordinary reality, I perceive myself as an agent killing you. I may hate you, who knows, but it's difficult for me. Then he says, if you go through a Buddhist enlightenment, You see that you have no self. You became a passive observer of your acts, and I no longer perceive me. stabbing a knife into your eye as my act, but just as he puts it, my knife is dancing around, and in the cosmic dance of phenomena your eye seems to stumble upon it. Was this psychopath or not?
Listen, I read a book on the history of SS, SS German. and especially a chapter on Reinhard Heydrich. He organized, you know, Wannsee conference, Holocaust, and so on. What strikes me so much is that, you know, what this guy, if there ever was a evil guy in his team, you know what he was doing in the evenings? He gathered with his SS friends. Even better, Beethoven's string quartet. And I think that's the really tragic, depressing thing. You cannot say, oh, they must have gotten it wrong or whatever. No, the tragic lesson of history is, and I can go on through like read a book which is the Bible for me, Brian Victoria, a Zen monk. It's called Zen at War. It demonstrates how the large majority of Zen Buddhists in Japan, not only totally supported Japanese military expansionism, but provided the properly Zen Buddhist justification for it. To amuse you very shortly, you know D.T. Daisetz Teitaro Suzuki, when we are young hippies, the glorious propagator in the hippie West of Buddhism. He not only fully supported Japanese invasion of China, but he faced this problem. I have to kill you in war. He said, if I remain caught in the illusion of my ordinary reality, I perceive myself as an agent killing you. I may hate you, who knows, but it's difficult for me. Then he says, if you go through a Buddhist enlightenment, You see that you have no self. You became a passive observer of your acts, and I no longer perceive me. stabbing a knife into your eye as my act, but just as he puts it, my knife is dancing around, and in the cosmic dance of phenomena your eye seems to stumble upon it. Was this psychopath or not?