Optimism or Pessimism? | Slavoj Žižek Meets Yanis Varoufakis on the Future (Part 4)
Debate · How To Academy ·
2024-12-23 · 0:21:39 · 2,879 words
with Yanis Varoufakis
capitalismcommunism-socialismideologyecology-climategeopolitics-wardemocracyliberalism-political-correctnesseconomicsphilosophy-generalsubjectivityethics
A live Q&A panel with Slavoj Žižek and Yanis Varoufakis fielding audience questions on political action, neoliberalism, and the left's relation to freedom. Žižek argues that theory must precede action (proposing to rewrite Marx's Thesis 11), calls for global coordination and elementary central planning against ecological and geopolitical catastrophe, and rejects the Stalinist opposition of 'formal' versus 'real' freedom while insisting bourgeois formal freedoms need material conditions to become meaningful. He distinguishes freedom from the empty slogan of 'justice' (which 'means nothing') and closes by affectionately roasting Varoufakis in a Monty Python 'what have the Romans ever done for us' routine.
every located moment in this recording, click one to read it
The ideas in it 10
in the order they first come up; click a row for what he does with the idea here
Varoufakis's term he endorses: today's capitalism is no longer capitalism, something new is happening, this is the kind of theory action needs.
as “common sense utopian”
His self-positioning: the proposal for global coordination is naive but, given the threats, the only rational utopia available.
as “libertarian communist”
His self-label for a left that defends formal freedom rather than trading it for Stalinist 'real' equality.
His term for the regime of crisis management, previewed by COVID, that we are definitely approaching and that requires central planning.
He calls for 'elementary central planning' and global coordination mechanisms (not a corrupt world government) to cope with ecological and geopolitical emergencies.
Following Rousseau/Freud, egotism is usually self-damaging; a rational egotist sees that long-term friendliness serves him better.
as “ideology as practiced non-belief”
Ideology today is a belief you practice even while disavowing it, 'it works even if you don't believe in it' (Bohr's horseshoe).
Marx already explodes against egalitarianism in the Critique of the Gotha Program; 'equality of what?' is the unanswered question.
as “real freedom”
The Stalinist claim that the state knows what you really need and provides it; he rejects the very opposition of formal vs. real freedom as the origin of evil.
Bourgeois/legal freedoms are 'a very precious form' that must be respected and given material-institutional conditions so they have actual meaning.
Stories he reaches for 1
Niels Bohr had a horseshoe on his country-house door; when a scientist friend asked why a scientist would keep a superstitious charm, Bohr answered 'I was told it works even if you don't believe in it', Žižek's model for ideology today.
“of course i don't believe it, i'm a scientist, but i was told it works even if you don't believe in it.”
Works invoked 5
Uses the 'what have the Romans ever done for us' routine as a rhetorical template to enumerate Varoufakis's achievements and then negate them.
Technofeudalism book
Varoufakis's analysis he endorses: today's capitalism is no longer capitalism, something new is happening, the theory action needs.
Marx's text, used to refute Peterson's equation of Marx with egalitarianism, Marx explodes against egalitarianism with right-wing-sounding arguments.
Capitalist Drive book
Adrian Johnston's book, cited for the thesis that capitalism is not egotism, a proper capitalist will sacrifice his children for profit.
Thesis 11 on Feuerbach essay
Marx's dictum that philosophers should change the world; Žižek proposes inverting it, now is the time to reflect.
People invoked 17
Locates the origin of the formal/real-freedom error already in Lenin, before it develops fully into Stalinism.
Mentioned as one of the 'bad guys' who, despite corruption, went full force during COVID, evidence for the emergency state.
Donald Trump positive
Ironic: calls Trump 'the great American communist theoretician' and agrees his claim that accepting climate change means accepting communism was right.
Alain Badiou negative
Disagrees with Badiou's opposition of democracy/freedom in favour of 'justice', justice means nothing and can mean everyone in their proper place.
Elon Musk negative
Held up as the supposed pure neoliberal whose SpaceX actually depends on state funding, a foil exposing neoliberal hypocrisy.
Quipped 'saint Paul Polanyi' in response to an audience question about Polanyi counter-movements in Hungary/Poland; no substantive engagement.
Adrian Johnston positive
Calls him 'my friend'; cites his book 'Capitalist Drive' for the point that capitalism is not egotism, a proper capitalist will ruin his children for profit.
Yanis Varoufakis positive
Co-panelist; endorses his techno-feudalism analysis and insights into developed-capitalism corruption, and closes with an affectionate Monty Python 'what did he do for us, nothing, fuck you' roast.
Jordan Peterson negative
Recalls their debate with regret; Peterson labelled Marx egalitarian, which Žižek corrected via Marx's Critique of the Gotha Program.
Jean-Jacques Rousseau positive
Credits Rousseau with seeing clearly that egotism is usually self-damaging, and that a rational egotist reasons for long-term friendliness.
Appreciates accelerationism 'in some sense' but is not pursuing that line; his interests lie elsewhere (quantum physics, ideology).
Niels Bohr positive
The horseshoe-on-the-door anecdote is deployed as the model for ideology today, a belief that 'works even if you don't believe in it'.
Max Horkheimer positive
Quotes Horkheimer's late-1930s motto 'pessimism in theory, optimism in action' approvingly, while saying he otherwise dislikes him; the closest-to-establishment Frankfurt School figure.
Joseph Stalin negative
Emblem of the 'objective laws' / 'real freedom' error he rejects; mocked as the one 'who knows objective laws'.
Karl Marx positive
Cites Marx's Critique of the Gotha Program exploding against egalitarianism with right-wing-sounding arguments, and proposes inverting Thesis 11 on Feuerbach.
Sigmund Freud positive
Cites Freud's dictum that people are at once much more ethical and much more corrupted than we imagine, against the egotist objection to communism.
Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel positive
Invokes 'my Hegelian touch' to approach the formal/real-freedom problem and the origin of evil.
What it argues
pessimism in theory, optimism in actionglobal coordination and central planning against catastrophethe approaching emergency stateneoliberalism's authoritarian potentialformal vs. real freedom (rejecting the Stalinist opposition)freedom versus the empty slogan of justiceideology as belief practiced without being believedcapitalism is not egotism; egotism is self-damaging
Dialectical moves 7
“In the 20th century till now, philosophers have tried too much to change the world, now it's time to reflect on it.”
Marx's Thesis 11 (change the world) is inverted into a call for theoretical reflection as the precondition of action.
“Trump, the great American communist theoretician — he was right: accept climate change and you must accept communism.”
The right-wing climate-denier's refusal secretly concedes the communism implicit in climate action.
“Capitalism is not egotism; a proper capitalist is ready to ruin his children for profit.”
What passes as egoism is in fact self-sacrifice to profit, capitalism is the opposite of self-interest.
“It doesn't matter if I win — it's more important that the other guy loses.”
The true motive of capitalist envy is not gain but the other's loss (the Slovene fairy-magician proverb).
“It works even if you don't believe in it — that's ideology today.”
The truest ideological belief is the one practiced while disavowed (Bohr's horseshoe).
“The origin of evil is opposing so-called formal and then real freedom.”
What is sold as deeper (real) freedom is the deception; the superficial (formal) freedom is what must be defended.
“Apart from everything he did, what did he do for us? Nothing.”
The full enumeration of achievements is the setup for the negation (Monty Python routine applied to Varoufakis).
Claims 24
asserts
Theory must precede action today; we should rewrite Marx's Thesis 11 so that, after a century of trying to change the world, philosophers now reflect on it.the theory-action relation
reframes
The opposition of theory versus action is a false choice; action without theory is blind.theory/action dichotomy
asserts
Radical pessimism in theory coexists with optimism in action (Horkheimer's motto).pessimism and action
asserts
Global coordination and elementary central planning are necessary to prevent ecological and geopolitical mega-catastrophes; there is no other way.catastrophe prevention and central planning
asserts
We are definitely approaching a type of emergency state.the emergency state
asserts
Trump was right that accepting climate change would mean accepting communism; the denial reveals the communism implicit in climate action.climate change and communism
rejects
The 'human nature / people are egotists' argument against communism is false.the human-nature objection to communism
asserts
Capitalism is not egotism; a proper capitalist is ready to ruin his children for profit.capitalism and egotism
asserts
Egotism is usually self-damaging; a rational egotist sees that friendliness pays in the long term (Rousseau).rational egotism
rejects
Ordinary people are not simply corrupted; there is a simple decency and shame in them, and the pseudo-critical cynical attitude is wrong.the pseudo-critical view of ordinary people
asserts
Raising salaries beyond a certain point makes workers more obsessed about money and lowers the quality of their work.incentives and pay
asserts
Every form of neoliberalism today has a tremendous authoritarian potential.neoliberalism
asserts
The only way to beat liberalism is through effective social coercion and power.beating liberalism
asserts
Elon Musk is not a pure neoliberal: SpaceX depends on the state paying its way.neoliberal hypocrisy
asserts
Marx explodes against egalitarianism in the Critique of the Gotha Program with arguments that today sound right-wing.egalitarianism
rejects
The Stalinist opposition of formal versus real freedom — the state knowing better what you really need — is the origin of evil.formal versus real freedom
asserts
Formal bourgeois freedom is a very precious form that must be respected and protected; the point is to create material and institutional conditions so it has actual meaning.formal freedom
reframes
The real conflict today is not freedom versus justice; 'justice' means nothing — it can mean everyone in their proper place.freedom versus justice
rejects
Badiou's opposition of democracy and freedom in favour of 'justice' is wrong; justice means nothing.Badiou's privileging of justice
asserts
Freedom of the press means nothing if the press is controlled by monopolies.press freedom
asserts
Freedom means nothing without broadly available public healthcare.freedom and healthcare
asserts
Ideology today functions as a belief you practice even while not believing in it (Bohr's horseshoe).ideology and cynical belief
reframes
His current theoretical interests are quantum physics as the foundation of a new serious materialism and the functioning of ideological belief, not accelerationism.research priorities versus accelerationism
rejects
The 'lazy leftist' ploy of evoking cleaning ladies to shut down a debate is a manipulation.manipulative debate-closing
Quotes 17
“pessimism in theory, optimism in action.”Slavoj Žižek · theory/action relation (Horkheimer)
“in the 20th century till now, philosophers have tried too much to change change the world, now it's time to reflect on it.”Slavoj Žižek · rewriting Marx's Thesis 11
“action without theory is blind.”Slavoj Žižek · theory before action
“i'm not naive. i'm not saying world government.”Slavoj Žižek · global coordination, not world government
“we are definitely approaching a type of emergency state.”Slavoj Žižek · the emergency state
“capitalism is not egotism. a proper capitalist is ready to ruin his children, everything just to that profit goes on.”Slavoj Žižek · capitalism is not egoism
“it doesn't matter if i win. it's more important that the other guy.”Slavoj Žižek · envy over gain
“ordinary people are not simply just corrupted.”Slavoj Žižek · decency of ordinary people
“i was told it works even if you don't believe in it. that's ideology today.”Slavoj Žižek · ideology as practiced non-belief
“every form today of neoliberalism has a tremendous authoritarian potential.”Slavoj Žižek · neoliberal authoritarianism
“the only way to beat liberalism is through an effective, i'm not afraid to say, social coercion and power.”Slavoj Žižek · coercion to beat liberalism
“equality of fucking what?”Slavoj Žižek · against empty egalitarianism
“the origin of evil, as it were, is this tendency which you at a point find already in lenin, but then in stalinism, of opposing so-called formal and then real freedom.”Slavoj Žižek · rejecting Stalinist real freedom
“freedom is just in bourgeois society. forum yes, but it's a very precious forum.”Slavoj Žižek · defending formal freedom
“what does it mean freedom of the press if the majority, if the press is controlled by monopolies?”Slavoj Žižek · formal freedom needs material conditions
“this is the deepest manipulation all the time lazy leftists, when they are afraid of a debate, lazy leftists evoke some poor cleaning ladies who must go home.”Slavoj Žižek · manipulative debate-closing
“apart from that, what did he do for us? nothing so fuck you.”Slavoj Žižek · Monty Python roasting of Varoufakis
Transcript 73 turns
Audience Member
up here.
up here.
Yanis Varoufakis
okay, up there. hi, thank you. man up, stand up, stand up. we need to look at you. to admire you.
okay, up there. hi, thank you. man up, stand up, stand up. we need to look at you. to admire you.
Audience Member
ah. i. i was wondering how, when we all want to take action, you've spoken about setting up a third party and other kind of action steps we can take. how we can take action without falling into some of the kind of ideological traps that people fall into.
ah. i. i was wondering how, when we all want to take action, you've spoken about setting up a third party and other kind of action steps we can take. how we can take action without falling into some of the kind of ideological traps that people fall into.
Slavoj Žižek
why it why do you think action necessarily means
why it why do you think action necessarily means
Audience Member
ide i didn't say i thought it meant how do we how can we avoid it? i don't equate them, but can you... if you want to take action and you say, i'm... stuck on the idea that we need x. how do you not become so dogmatic that you are not willing to change your opinion when new evidence and new perspectives comes? or how do you avoid yourself simplifying the situation by kind of fixating on a very precise idea? i mean, i'm not saying that's the case, but i think it's a risk that we could fall into if people focus purely on action, they aren't open to new ideas. you begin. well...
ide i didn't say i thought it meant how do we how can we avoid it? i don't equate them, but can you... if you want to take action and you say, i'm... stuck on the idea that we need x. how do you not become so dogmatic that you are not willing to change your opinion when new evidence and new perspectives comes? or how do you avoid yourself simplifying the situation by kind of fixating on a very precise idea? i mean, i'm not saying that's the case, but i think it's a risk that we could fall into if people focus purely on action, they aren't open to new ideas. you begin. well...
Yanis Varoufakis
there is no guarantee. no guarantee because we have we live in... extremely hierarchical societies, in power-hungry societies, in societies which have conditioned us into a zero-sum kind of understanding. so speaking from experience, i've created a third party, it didn't do very well. but, you know, it doesn't matter. it doesn't matter. it's the journey that matters, not the destination. . we hope to get there one day. but... for me, number one is you must never ever allow yourself to become a professional politician. sorry two. never allow yourself to become a.
there is no guarantee. no guarantee because we have we live in... extremely hierarchical societies, in power-hungry societies, in societies which have conditioned us into a zero-sum kind of understanding. so speaking from experience, i've created a third party, it didn't do very well. but, you know, it doesn't matter. it doesn't matter. it's the journey that matters, not the destination. . we hope to get there one day. but... for me, number one is you must never ever allow yourself to become a professional politician. sorry two. never allow yourself to become a.
Slavoj Žižek
professional politician.
professional politician.
Yanis Varoufakis
and you must never love doing it. the moment you start loving being in a political party, you should get out. you should look at it, in my view, as a necessary evil. i'd like taking the garbage out. somebody has to do it. it's a dirty job. the moment you start loving taking the garbage out, you're dangerous. and secondly, the most important thing is to have mechanisms with institutions within the party that keep checks on you. the opposite of my friend stalinist tendencies here. so it's, look. my view is that we're going to fail. and there is no alternative to enjoying life while you're trying to fail. the alternative is the utopia of believing that this life, without trying to go against the grain, can be useful and fun. and sexy.
and you must never love doing it. the moment you start loving being in a political party, you should get out. you should look at it, in my view, as a necessary evil. i'd like taking the garbage out. somebody has to do it. it's a dirty job. the moment you start loving taking the garbage out, you're dangerous. and secondly, the most important thing is to have mechanisms with institutions within the party that keep checks on you. the opposite of my friend stalinist tendencies here. so it's, look. my view is that we're going to fail. and there is no alternative to enjoying life while you're trying to fail. the alternative is the utopia of believing that this life, without trying to go against the grain, can be useful and fun. and sexy.
Slavoj Žižek
no, i sincerely... agree with you here because you know what's the incredible tension today and here i am like you. at the same time, radical pessimist, but here i like to quote, otherwise i don't like him. max horkheimer, the most closer to establishment figure of frankfurt school, when he said already in the late 30s. pessimism in theory, optimism in action. what do i mean by this? as you said, uh there is no guarantee. and i would even say, you know, it's a false choice, either theory or action. action without theory is blind. we need today also theory more than ever. at some point i went even too far maybe when i said that we should today rewrite thesis 11. in the 20th century till now, philosophers have tried too much to change change the world, now it's time to reflect on it. and that's what you are doing. instead of going on blah blah blah capitalism, no, techno-feudalism. something new is happening. that's theory. without this theory, there is no proper action. second thing, you know what? maybe i'm a common sense utopian here. but you know what i think. now, why am i a moderately conservative communist? for me, would you agree or not, i will put it in all possible naivety.
no, i sincerely... agree with you here because you know what's the incredible tension today and here i am like you. at the same time, radical pessimist, but here i like to quote, otherwise i don't like him. max horkheimer, the most closer to establishment figure of frankfurt school, when he said already in the late 30s. pessimism in theory, optimism in action. what do i mean by this? as you said, uh there is no guarantee. and i would even say, you know, it's a false choice, either theory or action. action without theory is blind. we need today also theory more than ever. at some point i went even too far maybe when i said that we should today rewrite thesis 11. in the 20th century till now, philosophers have tried too much to change change the world, now it's time to reflect on it. and that's what you are doing. instead of going on blah blah blah capitalism, no, techno-feudalism. something new is happening. that's theory. without this theory, there is no proper action. second thing, you know what? maybe i'm a common sense utopian here. but you know what i think. now, why am i a moderately conservative communist? for me, would you agree or not, i will put it in all possible naivety.
Yanis Varoufakis
okay.
okay.
Slavoj Žižek
uh... isn't it? absolutely clear and we all know it we are just not ready to minimally act upon it that think about. d terrible threats to our survival, crisis, ecology, war danger and so on, name them. genocides and so on. isn't it clear that in all these cases oui ne! some kind of global organization mechanisms i'm not naive. i'm not saying world government. if we do it with people who are there now, it would be unimaginable corrupt world government. but what i'm saying is that think just about, that's a good part. this will be probably too much for you. what i liked about covid epidemics. okay, i loved it personally. it meant i could get rid of my friends and work in peace at home. but i really laughed about, look, even the bad guys like boris johnson here, trump at that point there, they were full forced, although they did it in a totally corrupted way. but for example, in the united states, every family, everybody got $2,000. that was ridiculous with regard to the corruption, economic, blah, blah. but it's absolutely clear for me this, that we are definitely approaching a type of emergency state. and two cope with it. we absolutely need not communism in the sense of new central committee blah blah but some kind of central planning. sorry central planning. my god, you are my friend because i was afraid to pronounce this word yes, elementary central planning and not just some kind of a bullshit of endless negotiations with a certain
uh... isn't it? absolutely clear and we all know it we are just not ready to minimally act upon it that think about. d terrible threats to our survival, crisis, ecology, war danger and so on, name them. genocides and so on. isn't it clear that in all these cases oui ne! some kind of global organization mechanisms i'm not naive. i'm not saying world government. if we do it with people who are there now, it would be unimaginable corrupt world government. but what i'm saying is that think just about, that's a good part. this will be probably too much for you. what i liked about covid epidemics. okay, i loved it personally. it meant i could get rid of my friends and work in peace at home. but i really laughed about, look, even the bad guys like boris johnson here, trump at that point there, they were full forced, although they did it in a totally corrupted way. but for example, in the united states, every family, everybody got $2,000. that was ridiculous with regard to the corruption, economic, blah, blah. but it's absolutely clear for me this, that we are definitely approaching a type of emergency state. and two cope with it. we absolutely need not communism in the sense of new central committee blah blah but some kind of central planning. sorry central planning. my god, you are my friend because i was afraid to pronounce this word yes, elementary central planning and not just some kind of a bullshit of endless negotiations with a certain
Yanis Varoufakis
or the liberal idiocy that
or the liberal idiocy that
Slavoj Žižek
yes, are we aware when you say this is utopia, i would say. but do you see any other way to prevent mega catastrophes than to do this? second thing, you know
yes, are we aware when you say this is utopia, i would say. but do you see any other way to prevent mega catastrophes than to do this? second thing, you know
Yanis Varoufakis
trump once said, and he was absolutely correct, that there is no way he will accept that there is climate change because if he did, he would have to accept
trump once said, and he was absolutely correct, that there is no way he will accept that there is climate change because if he did, he would have to accept
Slavoj Žižek
accept communism. and he was right. he was right. you know who is trump, the great american communist theoretician and so on. yes, i totally agree with you. second thing that we, the left, should get this. you know, the usual argument is, oh, human nature, you dream, you communist, but people are egotists and so on. no, here i would quote freud. he said somewhere, people are at the same time much more ethical and much more corrupted that we can imagine. as for corruption, my friend adrian johnston wrote capitalist drive. a good book where he points out that. capitalism... capitalism is not egotism. a proper capitalist is ready to ruin his children, everything just to that profit goes on and so on and so on. and even i think that even egotism, already rousseau saw this clearly. that egotism is usually self-damaging egotism. if you are a good rational egotist, you see that if i'm friendly to you in the long term, it will be better for me.
accept communism. and he was right. he was right. you know who is trump, the great american communist theoretician and so on. yes, i totally agree with you. second thing that we, the left, should get this. you know, the usual argument is, oh, human nature, you dream, you communist, but people are egotists and so on. no, here i would quote freud. he said somewhere, people are at the same time much more ethical and much more corrupted that we can imagine. as for corruption, my friend adrian johnston wrote capitalist drive. a good book where he points out that. capitalism... capitalism is not egotism. a proper capitalist is ready to ruin his children, everything just to that profit goes on and so on and so on. and even i think that even egotism, already rousseau saw this clearly. that egotism is usually self-damaging egotism. if you are a good rational egotist, you see that if i'm friendly to you in the long term, it will be better for me.
Yanis Varoufakis
delight and selfishness.
delight and selfishness.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, but we, slovenes, are the model. we are worse than scots and so on. we know that the basic rule is what? you know a beautiful slovene proverb, self-characterization. fairy magician comes to you and say, i will give you or do you one thing, but warning. your neighbor will get or do twice as much. you know what is immediate slovene answer. take one of my eyes. because, you know, like the paradox of capitalism is it doesn't matter if i win. it's more important that the other guy. look, on the other hand, may i, and then you have the concluding question me? no, we need very briefly. conclude with.
yeah, but we, slovenes, are the model. we are worse than scots and so on. we know that the basic rule is what? you know a beautiful slovene proverb, self-characterization. fairy magician comes to you and say, i will give you or do you one thing, but warning. your neighbor will get or do twice as much. you know what is immediate slovene answer. take one of my eyes. because, you know, like the paradox of capitalism is it doesn't matter if i win. it's more important that the other guy. look, on the other hand, may i, and then you have the concluding question me? no, we need very briefly. conclude with.
Yanis Varoufakis
we are getting out of here by 9 o'clock, right?
we are getting out of here by 9 o'clock, right?
Slavoj Žižek
that's yeah.
that's yeah.
Yanis Varoufakis
but but i read these are the objective conditions of our reproduction.
but but i read these are the objective conditions of our reproduction.
Slavoj Žižek
and now you think. you think you are stalin who knows objective laws no, seriously, i read a wonderful study of how they made in america first an experiment, they repeated it in india. they took a collective where people were engaged not in stupid work, but in a relatively creative work. and they gradually raised their salaries. and they discovered that if you raise the salaries, up to a certain level, they will work better, blah, blah. but if you raise the salaries too much, they will become more obsessed about money and the quality. so it's not really that we want more and more money. also don't underestimate, and sorry to sound naive here, a simple decency shame of ordinary people. no, ordinary people are not simply just corrupted. so i... i refuse this. simple! critical, pseudo-critical. attitude towards ordinary people are corrupted, they don't know no it's much more complex.
and now you think. you think you are stalin who knows objective laws no, seriously, i read a wonderful study of how they made in america first an experiment, they repeated it in india. they took a collective where people were engaged not in stupid work, but in a relatively creative work. and they gradually raised their salaries. and they discovered that if you raise the salaries, up to a certain level, they will work better, blah, blah. but if you raise the salaries too much, they will become more obsessed about money and the quality. so it's not really that we want more and more money. also don't underestimate, and sorry to sound naive here, a simple decency shame of ordinary people. no, ordinary people are not simply just corrupted. so i... i refuse this. simple! critical, pseudo-critical. attitude towards ordinary people are corrupted, they don't know no it's much more complex.
Yanis Varoufakis
question.
question.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah. to him, i've suffered enough.
yeah. to him, i've suffered enough.
Yanis Varoufakis
no, no, no, no.
no, no, no, no.
Slavoj Žižek
and now you are a right-winger, move to the left a little bit. people notice that you tend okay, who is speaking? here, here, here, i see hand.
and now you are a right-winger, move to the left a little bit. people notice that you tend okay, who is speaking? here, here, here, i see hand.
Yanis Varoufakis
okay, now... the power structure has been corrupted.
okay, now... the power structure has been corrupted.
Audience Member
ach.
ach.
Yanis Varoufakis
slide
slide
Audience Member
just quick questions to.
just quick questions to.
Yanis Varoufakis
the pie.
the pie.
Audience Member
just quickly, are we ever going to get a debate between you and nick land at any point? thank you. uh now... you are not by any
just quickly, are we ever going to get a debate between you and nick land at any point? thank you. uh now... you are not by any
Slavoj Žižek
chance nick land? because i don't know him. no, what i wanted to say is that now i in some sense appreciate him, accelerationism and so on, but i... you know, there are so many theories, new ideas today. i'm not particularly interested in pursuing that line. i have other interests today. quantum physics is the foundation of a new serious materialism then the way ideological beliefs function today in the sense that as you indicated, you know, we live in a unique era. although it was all the time a little bit like this when people... you practice a certain belief even if you think that you don't believe in it. like we are all in daily life cynical, don't take it seriously, but we practice it. i will now make a great risk of repeating myself for the 30th time. i always quote here very brief. my favorite story of nis bohr, you know, when they visited him, some guys in his country house where he had a horseshoe on the door, in central europe, superstitious item, it presents evil spirits entering and scientist friend asked him, but you are a scientist, why do you have this on your door? and he said, of course i don't believe it, i'm a scientist, but i was told it works even if you don't believe in it. that's ideology today. that's ideology today.. left left. there, there.
chance nick land? because i don't know him. no, what i wanted to say is that now i in some sense appreciate him, accelerationism and so on, but i... you know, there are so many theories, new ideas today. i'm not particularly interested in pursuing that line. i have other interests today. quantum physics is the foundation of a new serious materialism then the way ideological beliefs function today in the sense that as you indicated, you know, we live in a unique era. although it was all the time a little bit like this when people... you practice a certain belief even if you think that you don't believe in it. like we are all in daily life cynical, don't take it seriously, but we practice it. i will now make a great risk of repeating myself for the 30th time. i always quote here very brief. my favorite story of nis bohr, you know, when they visited him, some guys in his country house where he had a horseshoe on the door, in central europe, superstitious item, it presents evil spirits entering and scientist friend asked him, but you are a scientist, why do you have this on your door? and he said, of course i don't believe it, i'm a scientist, but i was told it works even if you don't believe in it. that's ideology today. that's ideology today.. left left. there, there.
Audience Member
hello, good evening. to keep this brief,.
hello, good evening. to keep this brief,.
Yanis Varoufakis
get up, stand up, stand up. so to look hot. where are you? i'm a male at the back of the room.
get up, stand up, stand up. so to look hot. where are you? i'm a male at the back of the room.
Audience Member
bye.
bye.
Yanis Varoufakis
i like illuminate. illuminate. she is illuminated. hi, we can see her. look at the back. slavoy, she's there.
i like illuminate. illuminate. she is illuminated. hi, we can see her. look at the back. slavoy, she's there.
Audience Member
ah
ah
Yanis Varoufakis
waving waving a phone.
waving waving a phone.
Audience Member
good evening, just to keep this quite brief, in light of what we've discussed tonight about trump, the united states, i was quite curious to hear just a general thought about the emergence of pol in counter-movement.
good evening, just to keep this quite brief, in light of what we've discussed tonight about trump, the united states, i was quite curious to hear just a general thought about the emergence of pol in counter-movement.
Yanis Varoufakis
which movement?
which movement?
Audience Member
p in. um...
p in. um...
Yanis Varoufakis
i'm.
i'm.
Audience Member
austrian hungarian school of art.
austrian hungarian school of art.
Yanis Varoufakis
hungarian school of health. austrian.
hungarian school of health. austrian.
Audience Member
carl polanyi.
carl polanyi.
Yanis Varoufakis
polanyi. c.
polanyi. c.
Audience Member
strange accent, my apologies.
strange accent, my apologies.
Yanis Varoufakis
we made it him sound something brand new.
we made it him sound something brand new.
Audience Member
oh no.
oh no.
Yanis Varoufakis
i.
i.
Slavoj Žižek
saint paul polanyi, united.
saint paul polanyi, united.
Audience Member
polish accent, maybe that's the problem. specifically the emergence of a counter-movement towards it in hungary and poland, once again, polish, so that's the reasoning of that. but towards it's leading towards a neoliberal sort of rejection. and i was quite curious to hear just, of course, general thoughts on that. thank you.
polish accent, maybe that's the problem. specifically the emergence of a counter-movement towards it in hungary and poland, once again, polish, so that's the reasoning of that. but towards it's leading towards a neoliberal sort of rejection. and i was quite curious to hear just, of course, general thoughts on that. thank you.
Slavoj Žižek
briefly, and then i give it word. i tend to agree, maybe i misunderstood with you here. i think that every form today of neoliberalism has a tremendous authoritarian potential. i think that the only way to beat liberalism is through an effective, i'm not afraid to say, social coercion and power. we don't fall into this trap like who is pure neoliberal today, less regulations and so on, it's elon musk. and no, not really space.
briefly, and then i give it word. i tend to agree, maybe i misunderstood with you here. i think that every form today of neoliberalism has a tremendous authoritarian potential. i think that the only way to beat liberalism is through an effective, i'm not afraid to say, social coercion and power. we don't fall into this trap like who is pure neoliberal today, less regulations and so on, it's elon musk. and no, not really space.
Yanis Varoufakis
spacex goes to smithereens if there is no state paying for him to go up to the moon. so he needs a hefty tax system. to support his spacex. yeah but i totally agree with you but the point is that it is impossible.
spacex goes to smithereens if there is no state paying for him to go up to the moon. so he needs a hefty tax system. to support his spacex. yeah but i totally agree with you but the point is that it is impossible.
Slavoj Žižek
that be.
that be.
Yanis Varoufakis
neoliberal and successful businessman.
neoliberal and successful businessman.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, yeah, simple.
yeah, yeah, simple.
Yanis Varoufakis
you said, yes. unless you are a hypocrite, which is.
you said, yes. unless you are a hypocrite, which is.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, but
yeah, but
Yanis Varoufakis
but can i ask you a question too? to pick up the thread here. do you agree that the greatest error of the left, especially the marxist left in the 20th century, was to ditch freedom and to espouse something called justice, which i don't know what it means. it to be, you know, marxism used to be an emancipatory movement. it was all about liberation.. and then we espouse something that makes absolutely no sense. i equality, for instance.
but can i ask you a question too? to pick up the thread here. do you agree that the greatest error of the left, especially the marxist left in the 20th century, was to ditch freedom and to espouse something called justice, which i don't know what it means. it to be, you know, marxism used to be an emancipatory movement. it was all about liberation.. and then we espouse something that makes absolutely no sense. i equality, for instance.
Slavoj Žižek
yes. equality of fucking what? no, i know what i even brought up this point with that. i regret it, but now i no longer want with jordan peterson, who said marx egalitarianism, and i had to quote it to him in his critique of hate. yeah, in critique, not just implicitly, in his critique of goethe's program, he explodes against egalitarianism with arguments which today would have sound the right wing says, but listen, they are different.
yes. equality of fucking what? no, i know what i even brought up this point with that. i regret it, but now i no longer want with jordan peterson, who said marx egalitarianism, and i had to quote it to him in his critique of hate. yeah, in critique, not just implicitly, in his critique of goethe's program, he explodes against egalitarianism with arguments which today would have sound the right wing says, but listen, they are different.
Yanis Varoufakis
educated enough to know any of
educated enough to know any of
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, yeah, so i sorry, so what was your question?
yeah, yeah, so i sorry, so what was your question?
Yanis Varoufakis
wasn't it a great mistake of the
wasn't it a great mistake of the
Slavoj Žižek
yeah.
yeah.
Yanis Varoufakis
i.
i.
Slavoj Žižek
it's only
it's only
Yanis Varoufakis
it. freedom. to hand it over to the libert..
it. freedom. to hand it over to the libert..
Slavoj Žižek
so it might be. makes no sense like. my hegelian touch would be here. the origin of evil, as it were, is this tendency which you at a point find already in lenin, but then in stalinism, of opposing so-called formal and then real freedom. as if under stalinism, okay, you didn't have formal freedom, but you have real freedom. to cut a long story short, the state knows better than you what you really need and provides it. and i think that, does this mean, here i would agree with you. yes, in this sense i am libertarian communist, that an authentic... emancipatory left. doesn't say, oh. freedom is just in bourgeois society. forum yes, but it's a very precious forum and a socialist just acts. the obvious fact that while formal freedom has to be respected protected the point is not to limit this freedom on account of some real equality, but to create conditions, material, institutional, where this formal freedom has some actual meaning. like what does it mean freedom of the press if the majority, if the press is controlled by monopolies? yes, what does it mean enjoy free life if you cannot rely on ch! broadly available healthcare systems. in my case, slovenia, this is almost the only point where there is still a widespread nostalgia for old yugoslavia with all its bullshit. i remember when i was young there. you know, we were afraid you get cancer, this death. but we had this simple trust that if you get a serious illness, okay, it may be hit for you but somehow the state, the public healthcare care system will take care of it. so in this sense, again, i would say the conflict is not freedom. the problem today is this one. justice. here i disagree with alain badiou, who also opposes democracy, freedom and says justice. nothing. sorry, it means nothing. it means nothing. yes, because justice also can have this very traditional meaning. justice means everybody at his or her or their proper place. but so again, it means... nothing nothing. even democracy means less and.
so it might be. makes no sense like. my hegelian touch would be here. the origin of evil, as it were, is this tendency which you at a point find already in lenin, but then in stalinism, of opposing so-called formal and then real freedom. as if under stalinism, okay, you didn't have formal freedom, but you have real freedom. to cut a long story short, the state knows better than you what you really need and provides it. and i think that, does this mean, here i would agree with you. yes, in this sense i am libertarian communist, that an authentic... emancipatory left. doesn't say, oh. freedom is just in bourgeois society. forum yes, but it's a very precious forum and a socialist just acts. the obvious fact that while formal freedom has to be respected protected the point is not to limit this freedom on account of some real equality, but to create conditions, material, institutional, where this formal freedom has some actual meaning. like what does it mean freedom of the press if the majority, if the press is controlled by monopolies? yes, what does it mean enjoy free life if you cannot rely on ch! broadly available healthcare systems. in my case, slovenia, this is almost the only point where there is still a widespread nostalgia for old yugoslavia with all its bullshit. i remember when i was young there. you know, we were afraid you get cancer, this death. but we had this simple trust that if you get a serious illness, okay, it may be hit for you but somehow the state, the public healthcare care system will take care of it. so in this sense, again, i would say the conflict is not freedom. the problem today is this one. justice. here i disagree with alain badiou, who also opposes democracy, freedom and says justice. nothing. sorry, it means nothing. it means nothing. yes, because justice also can have this very traditional meaning. justice means everybody at his or her or their proper place. but so again, it means... nothing nothing. even democracy means less and.
Yanis Varoufakis
spe, speaking of freedom and liberty, it's 9 o'clock and i've been told that we have to be thrown out, out of respect for the workers in this building.
spe, speaking of freedom and liberty, it's 9 o'clock and i've been told that we have to be thrown out, out of respect for the workers in this building.
Slavoj Žižek
this is the deepest manipulation all the time lazy leftists, when they are afraid of a debate, lazy leftists evoke some poor cleaning ladies who must go home.
this is the deepest manipulation all the time lazy leftists, when they are afraid of a debate, lazy leftists evoke some poor cleaning ladies who must go home.
Yanis Varoufakis
let, let's all give a round of applause.
let, let's all give a round of applause.
Slavoj Žižek
clavo that. yeah. ah. and! allow me to finish, you will like it immediately. please, half a minute. for him, i will repeat a joke about him which i think is my best. you remember from ljubljana. what did he give us, really, yis? nothing. okay. i will play the game of, you know, that monty python, you know, when somebody said, have the romans done for us? yes,. and then somebody said, but they gave us roads. others said, but they gave us aqueducts. and then at the end, the leader of the party says, okay, disregarding water safety, good, blah, blah, blah, what did rome did for us? nothing. so i would say what did janis do? he threw a new light on what today's capitalism is how it's no longer capitalism. he had incredible insights into corruption in developed capitalism. he always took care of sympathy with the third world but without falling into this trap of because of the so he did practically everything and apart from that, what did he do for us? nothing so fuck you.
clavo that. yeah. ah. and! allow me to finish, you will like it immediately. please, half a minute. for him, i will repeat a joke about him which i think is my best. you remember from ljubljana. what did he give us, really, yis? nothing. okay. i will play the game of, you know, that monty python, you know, when somebody said, have the romans done for us? yes,. and then somebody said, but they gave us roads. others said, but they gave us aqueducts. and then at the end, the leader of the party says, okay, disregarding water safety, good, blah, blah, blah, what did rome did for us? nothing. so i would say what did janis do? he threw a new light on what today's capitalism is how it's no longer capitalism. he had incredible insights into corruption in developed capitalism. he always took care of sympathy with the third world but without falling into this trap of because of the so he did practically everything and apart from that, what did he do for us? nothing so fuck you.