Slavoj Žižek & Ash Sarkar - In conversation
Interview · How To Academy ·
2024-03-25 · 1:08:04 · 8,830 words
with Cathy Newman, Ash Sarkar, Event Staff
capitalismcommunism-socialismideologypsychoanalysisreligion-theologyfascism-populismliberalism-political-correctnessdemocracyrevolution-violencegeopolitics-warecology-climatesexuality-genderrace-antisemitismcinema-art-culturehistoryethicssubjectivityphilosophy-general
A 75th-birthday conversation with Ash Sarkar at the How To Academy launching Žižek's book Christian Atheism. Žižek reframes Marx's commodity fetishism as a theory of how we act rather than what we think, uses the Niels Bohr horseshoe to argue that today's ideology operates through disbelieving participants, and insists secular actors (Stalinists, Zionists) still act as if a big Other measures their deeds. He rejects the liberal 'Trump as aberration' line, blaming liberal corporate capitalism's self-antagonisms and its reliance on tolerated criminal gangs, and proposes the left reclaim 'law and order' and the posture of the 'true moral majority.' Topics range through techno-feudalism, the commons, cancel culture vs concrete universality, the Houthis and Somali pirates as tactical but non-universal, Uganda's anti-gay laws, the tragedy of post-apartheid South Africa, and personal set-pieces on staging Wagner's Parsifal, Yugoslav unemployment as his 'luck,' and a painless death.
every located moment in this recording, click one to read it
The ideas in it 17
in the order they first come up; click a row for what he does with the idea here
His position that it is better to say God is stupid, cruel and mendacious than that God does not exist, because bald denial enables a cynical belief-without-belief.
Marx's point that the mystery is not in our heads but in our social activity, in how we act on market exchange, so that even cynical enlightened subjects are caught in it.
as “ideology without belief”
The contemporary structure of ideology: people participate in the ritual although they do not believe in it, belief is in the practice, not the profession.
A Lacan-derived virtual symbolic agency that secular people still act as though exists, measuring and evaluating their acts even when they profess not to believe.
His claim that the real enemy is not Trump as aberration but the internal weakness and contradictions of liberal-democratic corporate capitalism that opened the space for him.
The logic Žižek traces to Andrew Jackson's Indian removal, framing violent displacement as saving the displaced, which he parallels to Israel's settler colonialism.
as “concrete analysis of concrete situation”
Lenin's formula Žižek invokes to qualify his defence of vulgarity: relaxed insult works in some relations, not others (e.g. not with a rape victim).
as “the true moral majority”
His proposed strategic inversion: the left should claim to be the decent moral majority and brand the populist right as dirty, violent criminals.
Varoufakis's notion Žižek partly accepts: platform capitalists no longer behave like ordinary capitalists and cannot be regulated by welfare-state mechanisms.
In Marx's tradition, shared spheres of social activity (e.g. book distribution) now privately controlled by platform capitalists like Amazon, who can destroy you at will.
A notion from his Danish friends extending exploitation to the environment, e.g. fracking in northern Canada destroying the conditions of indigenous life.
Strategic nodes where global goods must flow (e.g. the Red Sea) whose interruption can bring capital to its knees, Sarkar's framing of the Houthis' tactic.
Lenin's term Žižek cites for the claim that the Western working class is corrupted and the only hope is the Third World, a view he respectfully disagrees with.
Hegel's method: when judging an ideological trend, identify the concrete case or image that exemplifies it rather than停留在 abstract universal slogans.
His contrast: the real terrain of feminism is the economically trapped, ignored lower-class wife, not the culture-struggle scenes of powerful women defending themselves.
His verdict on cancel culture: it fights for diversity and inclusion while effectively excluding everyone it perceives as too diverse, with no positive program behind the fanaticism.
His self-described ideal way of life: life externally organized and scheduled like a gulag, but leaving you free to read and write, a comic revaluation of oppression.
Stories he reaches for 6
A French scientist visits Bohr's country house, sees a horseshoe over the door and mocks the superstition; Bohr replies he doesn't believe it works but was told it works even if you don't believe in it.
“I'm a scientist. Of course I don't believe that it works. But I was told it works even if you don't believe in it.”
A Native American friend in Missoula, Montana 30 years ago said he preferred 'Indian' because the name is at least a symbol of the stupidity of white people who thought they were in India.
“my name is at least a symbol of the stupidity of white people who thought they are in india”
A Stanford friend's research on how survivors of the Srebrenica massacre and the Holocaust coped by telling dirty jokes about themselves, an admission the trauma is too great to mourn properly; Wiesel, whom Žižek otherwise dislikes, collects such theological and Bosnia jokes.
“they survived by making fun of themselves, by telling dirty jokes about themselves”
Few good films about the Holocaust are comedies (Life is Beautiful, the better Pasqualino Settebellezze); Primo Levi's If This Is a Man was ignored for a decade because mourning needs time, like a child whose crying already signals a return to normal after the pure shock.
“Jews themselves needed sometime, 10, 15 years... it began like the greatest book, the absolute book, Primo Levi”
At a reception in her apartment Arendt, tired on her fauteuil, kept taking short naps; the fifth time she did not awaken, dying without awareness, which he calls as close to a good death as one can get.
“the fifth time it was a short nap and she didn't awaken”
An old ANC fighter from South Africa told him that among poor blacks the predominant experience is now nostalgia for apartheid, because living standards are no better (or worse with unemployment) while the old police state at least offered basic safety.
“the nostalgia for apartheid... standard of living for black majority is no better than under apartheid”
Works invoked 14
Capital book
Marx's work; defends the appendix to chapter one on commodity fetishism and Volume 2 on circulation as more actual than ever.
Grundrisse book
Marx's introduction and first chapter that humanities Marxists used to cite instead of analyzing the actual economy.
Parsifal opera
Wagner opera he dreams of staging in a modern mega-city as a war between a drug-dealing Grail gang and Klingsor's prostitution ring.
If This Is a Man book
Primo Levi's 'absolute book' on the Holocaust, ignored for a decade because proper mourning needs time.
Life is Beautiful film
One of the few good Holocaust comedies, cited as illustrating why comedy becomes possible only after a long delay.
New Left Review journal
He is 'out' there, part of the price he says he paid for his public positions.
Christian Atheism book
His new book launched at the event, whose thesis is that it is better to call God cruel than to deny his existence.
The Guardian journal
He is now 'prohibited' there, part of his self-described disappearance from public space.
Lina Wertmüller's Holocaust comedy he rates 'much better' than Life is Beautiful.
New Statesman journal
One of the few outlets still occasionally publishing him, mostly online.
New York Times journal
Used to publish his columns regularly twenty years ago; no longer does.
Spectator (Magazine) journal
Occasionally publishes him, mostly on the web.
London Review of Books journal
He is 'out' there too, alongside New Left Review.
Substack journal
One of the 'horrible things' he resorted to after disappearing from established outlets.
People invoked 36
André Bazin positive
Cinema theorist he read as a teen in Yugoslavia when he wanted to be a movie director.
Elie Wiesel positive
Otherwise dislikes him, but credits his collection of theological and Srebrenica jokes as illustrating how survivors admit a trauma too great to mourn.
Primo Levi positive
Author of If This Is a Man, 'the absolute book,' ignored for a decade until the late 1950s because mourning the Holocaust needed time.
the Houthis negative
Their Red Sea choke-point tactic works tactically but lacks universal potential; he is sceptical Western or Third World workers would identify with it.
Named as an early US president in the period when only 1–1.5% of colonists voted.
Andrew Jackson negative
The first populist US president, who generalized suffrage but also opened the West and used the logic of humanitarian resettlement to remove Native Americans.
Itamar Ben-Gvir negative
Convicted as a terrorist by Israel 15 years ago and now minister for national security, cited as proof that gangs are openly in power.
Vladimir Lenin positive
Cited for 'concrete analysis of concrete situation' and the notion of workers' aristocracy, which he uses but partly rejects.
Introduces the event and welcomes Žižek on his 75th birthday.
Xi Jinping negative
Named alongside Putin as a bad guy who is easier to distance oneself from than Trump.
Jacques Lacan positive
Invoked for the 'quick jump to Lacanian theory' of the big Other that measures and evaluates our acts.
Expresses sympathy: international factory fishing depleted their sea and destroyed their food supply, making piracy a desperate response.
Criticized for 'just doing' unlawful Brexit moves; also cited as an anti-communist forced into quasi-socialist pandemic measures.
Donald Trump negative
A postmodern cynical relativist who acts as Christian moral majority; worse than Putin/Xi because internal, but a symptom of liberal capitalism rather than the true enemy.
Yuval Noah Harari positive
A relatively liberal Zionist he disagrees with politically, but credits his observation that the radical left's old obscenity-and-violence style has migrated to the new populist right.
Álvaro García Linera positive
Ex-vice president of Bolivia and good friend whose analysis of unregistered domestic labourers shows the emancipatory subject is no longer the old working class.
Patricia Highsmith positive
His favorite detective writer; her first stories already fully perfect, a miracle he cites to deny development.
Jeff Bezos negative
Named with Musk and Gates as no longer ordinary capitalists but controllers of a commons (e.g. Amazon dominating book distribution).
Elon Musk negative
Named as a new kind of platform capitalist controlling a commons rather than an ordinary capitalist.
David Harvey positive
His 'Marxist American friend,' called the best interpreter of Capital today; source for the 2008 crisis destruction in small US cities that the left ignored and that fed Trump.
Bernie Sanders positive
Opposed to Trump as the true embodiment of the modest moral-majority decency of common people, a model for the left's self-presentation.
Hamas negative
Rejects its attack as not redeemable merely as excessive armed resistance.
Yanis Varoufakis positive
Agrees capitalism as we knew it is ending; does not always accept his notion of techno-feudalism but sees the phenomenon it describes.
Became friendly with him in Paris while doing his doctorate, though they later split.
Bill Gates negative
Named with Bezos and Musk as controllers of a commons, not ordinary capitalists.
His interlocutor and host of the conversation; spars with him over cancel culture, the Houthis, and the movement of the majority.
Hannah Arendt negative
Says he does not appreciate her much, but uses the anecdote of her unaware death by napping as the model of a good death.
Joe Biden negative
Personifies the liberal fantasy that all we must do is return to good old welfare-state social democracy, avoiding the deeper cause of Trump.
Niels Bohr positive
Quantum physicist and 'philosophical genius' whose horseshoe anecdote Žižek uses as his favorite illustration of how ideology functions today.
Vladimir Putin negative
Named among 'the other bad guys'; tolerating private armies is part of the state-gang pattern.
Sergei Eisenstein positive
Cinema theorist he read as a teen alongside Bazin.
Franklin Delano Roosevelt positive
Cited for the old law Trump invoked during the pandemic allowing government to order industry what to produce.
Joseph Stalin negative
Hardline Stalinism is 'the worst theology', godless in appearance but treating history as a big Other that will vindicate it.
Karl Marx positive
Defends Capital's commodity-fetishism appendix as more actual than ever, and the commons tradition; urges readers to give Marx a chance.
Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel positive
His model for concrete universality and for the pessimistic question of how even the best ideas can go wrong.
John Major negative
His back-to-basics campaign elevated a single unemployed mother into the symbol of all social evil, a purely symbolic scapegoating operation.
What it argues
commodity fetishism as how we act, not what we thinkideology of disbelieving participants (Bohr's horseshoe)Christian atheism: better to call God cruel than nonexistentthe secular big Other (Stalinist history, Zionist land)Trump as symptom of liberal capitalism's self-antagonismscriminal gangs tolerated by the state (settlers, Proud Boys, Prigozhin)the left should reclaim law and order and the moral majoritytechno-feudalism and the privatized commonscancel culture's fake radicalism vs concrete universalityreal feminine everyday suffering vs culture-struggle feminismHouthis, Somali pirates and the question of universal potentialpost-apartheid South Africa's nostalgia for apartheidvulgarity and insult as the path to proximityHolocaust/Srebrenica comedy as not-yet-mourninga painless, unaware death (Hannah Arendt's nap)
Dialectical moves 11
“The trick is no longer to convince a religiously crazy guy about reality; the trick is to demonstrate to enlightened realists how deeply they are still caught in superstitions.”
The cynic, not the believer, is the true ideological subject today.
“People participate in the ritual although they don't believe in it.”
Belief is located in the practice, so disbelief coexists with full ideological participation.
“It is better to say that God is stupid, cruel and mendacious than to say God doesn't exist.”
Denial preserves the believing-practice; affirming God's malice at least keeps the engagement honest.
“The worst theology is hardline Stalinism — it appears godless but treats history as a big Other that will give us right.”
The most militant atheism is secretly the most theological.
“The true enemy is not Trump but the weakness, the self-antagonisms of liberal-democratic corporate capitalism which opened the space for Trump populism.”
The symptom is internal to the system, not an external aberration.
“What if the left plays down its enjoyment in brutal demonstrations and simply adopts the rule: we are the true moral majority, you are dirty violent criminals.”
Invert the right's claim to the moral majority; the left is the decent one.
“Their radicalism is for me a fake one.”
Cancel culture's fanaticism is the inverted form of its lack of a positive program.
“Tragedy is already a betrayal: in truly horrifying times you cannot play the tragic hero.”
Tragedy presupposes a dignity that extreme horror destroys, so comedy becomes the honest form.
“Without the last big wave of communist oppression I would have been a stupid professor in a shit hole of a city.”
Oppression was the condition of his freedom and international career, the obstacle was the enabling opening.
“A really good journalist manipulates my words so as to make me say the exact opposite of what I wanted to say.”
Fidelity to meaning is reversed into the art of producing its opposite.
“Hegel is not a stupid idealist who thinks the good side will always win; the Hegelian asks how things can go wrong even with the best.”
Hegelian optimism is reversed into the analysis of how the best goes wrong.
Claims 27
asserts
Marx's commodity fetishism is not a theory of illusions in our heads but of how we act: the mystery is in our social activity, in market exchange itself.commodity fetishism
reframes
Marx is more actual than ever because today's subjects are cynical Enlightened realists, so the trick is to show them how deeply they are still caught in superstitions.ideology and cynicism
asserts
It is better to say God is stupid, cruel and mendacious than to say God does not exist, because bald denial leaves the believing-practice intact.atheism and theology
asserts
Secular actors still act as if a big Other measures their acts — Stalinists appealing to history, Zionists claiming a god they deny still gave them the land.secular belief-in-the-big-Other
asserts
Trump is in a sense worse than Putin or Xi because he is internal and harder to distance oneself from, but he is a symptom rather than the true enemy.Trump as symptom
reframes
The true enemy is the weakness and self-antagonisms of liberal-democratic corporate capitalism that opened the space for Trump populism, not Trump himself.the real enemy behind Trump
asserts
Liberal democracy cannot reproduce itself without silently tolerating and using illegal criminal gangs — Proud Boys, Israeli settlers, Putin's private armies.state reliance on gangs
asserts
The left should fully assume the slogan of law and order and present itself as the true moral majority, ceding violent street spectacle to the right.left strategy
reframes
Bernie Sanders, not Trump, embodies the modest moral-majority decency of common people, exposing the right's Christian-values posture as postmodern cynical relativism.Sanders vs Trump
asserts
Humanity's only chance is to step out of the nation-state frame into much stronger international collaboration and social control of the means of production.international communism
asserts
Capitalism as we knew it is ending and something new is emerging — potentially worse than traditional capitalism because it controls the commons and resists welfare-state regulation.techno-feudalism
asserts
The pandemic showed even anti-communist leaders like Boris Johnson and Trump were forced into quasi-socialist measures — directing industry, sending every family a check.pandemic and social control
reframes
The subject of radical emancipation is no longer the old working class but precarious and invisible workers — the unregistered domestic labourers García Linera identified in Bolivia.the emancipatory subject
rejects
We must not subordinate women's and LGBTQ rights to anti-Western anti-colonial struggle — Uganda's death-penalty homosexuality laws are a hard limit regardless of their anti-colonial rhetoric.anti-colonialism vs minority rights
rejects
Cancel culture's radicalism is fake: it excludes precisely those it deems too diverse and lacks any positive program beyond abstract justice.cancel culture
reframes
The #MeToo scene of a powerful woman defending herself obscures the real feminine everyday suffering of the economically trapped, ignored lower-class wife.feminism and class
rejects
The Houthis' choke-point tactic lacks universal potential — as a Hegelian he always asks how even the best idea can go wrong, and he is sceptical this generalises to Western workers.the Houthis' tactic
asserts
He had sympathy for the Somali pirates because foreign industrial fishing depleted their sea and ruined their food supply, making piracy a desperate response.Somali pirates
asserts
Post-apartheid South Africa is a tragedy: poor blacks now feel nostalgia for apartheid because safety and living standards did not improve, feeding white liberal racism.South Africa
asserts
The American West parallels Israeli settler colonialism: Andrew Jackson, the first populist president, used the logic of humanitarian resettlement to justify removal.settler colonialism
asserts
Without the last wave of Yugoslav communist oppression he would have been a stupid professor in a backwater — moderate oppression that opened foreign connections was his luck.oppression as enabling
asserts
True proximity to another person requires a moment of relaxed, gentle vulgarity or exchanged insult beyond polite exchange.proximity and insult
reframes
Holocaust and Srebrenica jokes are not betrayal but an admission that the trauma is still too great to confront and mourn properly.comedy and trauma
reframes
When a situation is truly horrifying — Holocaust, gulag — tragedy itself becomes a betrayal, because one cannot play the tragic hero where there is no room for dignity.tragedy and extremity
asserts
He prefers to die without knowing it is happening — a silent, painless, unannounced end like Hannah Arendt's final nap.the good death
asserts
Communism means building a movement of the majority, for the majority, which by definition includes racists and transphobes — turning one's back on them leaves only disempowered elite politics.the communist project · Ash Sarkar
asserts
The left should learn the Houthis' tactic of interrupting global trade flows, since hijacking an oil tanker can bring capital to its knees more than a four-day week in one's charity sector job.tactics for the left · Ash Sarkar
Quotes 20
“I was never born, I was like Buddha, I crawled out of the woman's body and already spoke some wisdoms.”Slavoj Žižek · no-development self-myth
“the mystery, fetishism, is in our social activity. It is how we act. On market exchange, it's there that we follow fetishism.”Slavoj Žižek · fetishism as practice not illusion
“I'm a scientist. Of course I don't believe that it works. But I was told it works even if you don't believe in it.”Slavoj Žižek · ideology without belief
“people participate in the ritual although they don't believe in it.”Slavoj Žižek · the structure of contemporary ideology
“it is better to say that god is stupid, god is cruel, god is mendacious than it is to say god doesn't exist.”Slavoj Žižek · Christian atheism
“they admitted there is no god, but god nonetheless gave us the land.”Slavoj Žižek · the secular big Other
“the true enemy... is the weakness, the self-antagonisms of liberal democratic new corporate capitalism which opened up the space for Trump populism.”Slavoj Žižek · Trump as symptom
“we are the true moral majority. You are dirty, violent criminals.”Slavoj Žižek · the left reclaims moral majority
“capitalism as we knew it is coming to an end.”Slavoj Žižek · end of capitalism as we knew it
“they control a whole sphere of what, in the tradition of Marx, I call commons.”Slavoj Žižek · platform capitalists seize the commons
“Hegel is not a stupid idealist who thinks, oh, somehow the good side will always win... his question is, how can things go wrong? with even the best.”Slavoj Žižek · Hegelian pessimism
“their radicalism is for me a fake one.”Slavoj Žižek · cancel culture's fake radicalism
“they fight for diversity and inclusion. But what they effectively do is mostly excluding everybody that they perceive as too diverse.”Slavoj Žižek · cancel culture inversion
“without the last big wave of communist oppression... I would have been a stupid professor in a shit hole of a city.”Slavoj Žižek · oppression as enabling
“my ideal way of life: gulag with the human face.”Slavoj Žižek · revalued totalitarian scheduling
“a really good journalist uses not only my words, but manipulates them in such a way that it makes me say the exact opposite of what I wanted to say.”Slavoj Žižek · reversal as fidelity
“I'm not afraid of death. I'm afraid of a painful process of dying.”Slavoj Žižek · fear of dying, not death
“tragedy is already a betrayal because tragedy means... you still retain your dignity... when times are really horrifying... you cannot play a tragic hero.”Slavoj Žižek · tragedy as betrayal
“the only thing that can save us, all of us, humanity, is... to step out from the nation state frame and a much stronger form of international collaboration.”Slavoj Žižek · internationalism as survival
“we are the true moral majority”Slavoj Žižek · left moral majority
Transcript 155 turns
Cathy Newman
good evening! good evening and welcome to the emmanuel centre for this very special how to academy event. it's a real delight to see so many of you here. for a very prestigious and exciting occasion. um tonight's guest doesn't really need an introduction. consummate joker. rockstar philosopher, film star. he is, of course. slavek and yeah, you can clap that, that's fine. and we are absolutely delighted to have him with us as he celebrates his 75th birthday. so i hope you'll join me in celebrating with him and... and we're looking forward to this conversation. it's hosted by Ash Sarkar. so please give them both a huge welcome as they come onto the stage.
good evening! good evening and welcome to the emmanuel centre for this very special how to academy event. it's a real delight to see so many of you here. for a very prestigious and exciting occasion. um tonight's guest doesn't really need an introduction. consummate joker. rockstar philosopher, film star. he is, of course. slavek and yeah, you can clap that, that's fine. and we are absolutely delighted to have him with us as he celebrates his 75th birthday. so i hope you'll join me in celebrating with him and... and we're looking forward to this conversation. it's hosted by Ash Sarkar. so please give them both a huge welcome as they come onto the stage.
Ash Sarkar
so slavoy just told me a secret when we were waiting in the wings. he said that he actually hates celebrating his birthday. is that true?
so slavoy just told me a secret when we were waiting in the wings. he said that he actually hates celebrating his birthday. is that true?
Slavoj Žižek
no, i deny it. i was never. i was never born, i was like buddha, i crawled out of the woman's body and already spoke some wisdoms, you know.
no, i deny it. i was never. i was never born, i was like buddha, i crawled out of the woman's body and already spoke some wisdoms, you know.
Ash Sarkar
i think you like hatched under a moist rock fully formed. that was my sense, you know, sort of like an amoeba.
i think you like hatched under a moist rock fully formed. that was my sense, you know, sort of like an amoeba.
Slavoj Žižek
no, you know what i compare myself to? my favorite detective writer, Patricia Highsmith.
no, you know what i compare myself to? my favorite detective writer, Patricia Highsmith.
Ash Sarkar
mm-hmm.
mm-hmm.
Slavoj Žižek
there is something miraculous about her, her first story. are already fully perfect. it's incredible. there is no development mean. i don't believe in development.
there is something miraculous about her, her first story. are already fully perfect. it's incredible. there is no development mean. i don't believe in development.
Ash Sarkar
thank.
thank.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah.
yeah.
Ash Sarkar
so... the first job i ever wanted when i was a child was to be a burglar. i wanted to wear a stripey top, i wanted to break into people's houses and that's how i wanted to make my living. what was the first job you ever wanted?
so... the first job i ever wanted when i was a child was to be a burglar. i wanted to wear a stripey top, i wanted to break into people's houses and that's how i wanted to make my living. what was the first job you ever wanted?
Slavoj Žižek
it may surprise you. i didn't already spoke about it, but it's a movie director. in my teens, i read a lot of cinema theory, which was strangely translated into yugoslavia at that point. and i read a lot of andré bazin, eisenstein, all those great names. and then it was very sad, the more that i studied it. the more i discovered that i'm too stupid for it. so the desire that i still have a little bit of it now is... to stage a big wagner opera. it didn't work but i already had contact at bayreuth.
it may surprise you. i didn't already spoke about it, but it's a movie director. in my teens, i read a lot of cinema theory, which was strangely translated into yugoslavia at that point. and i read a lot of andré bazin, eisenstein, all those great names. and then it was very sad, the more that i studied it. the more i discovered that i'm too stupid for it. so the desire that i still have a little bit of it now is... to stage a big wagner opera. it didn't work but i already had contact at bayreuth.
Cathy Newman
even
even
Slavoj Žižek
i collaborated, but just. writing some text on staging there but the problem is that i would have to co-direct an opera. because i don't have the patience to work with singers, you know. i'm just, but... i think i have a very good idea for. i hope i'm not speaking totally strange language here that you know vaguely the story of parsifal, the grail. king a king is dying and so on, then there is the bad guy Klingsor who has a ring of. my idea is to stage it in a modern mega city where grail community is of course a gang which distributes drug when they say distribute the grail its drug and Klingsor the other guy is. holds a prostitute ring and he wants to take over the drug dealing in the end when parsifal wins his if you are wagnerian, no his his revealed the grail means free drugs, no longer commercialization and so on and i was in contact already but it didn't work. if you ask me, this is my secret desire.
i collaborated, but just. writing some text on staging there but the problem is that i would have to co-direct an opera. because i don't have the patience to work with singers, you know. i'm just, but... i think i have a very good idea for. i hope i'm not speaking totally strange language here that you know vaguely the story of parsifal, the grail. king a king is dying and so on, then there is the bad guy Klingsor who has a ring of. my idea is to stage it in a modern mega city where grail community is of course a gang which distributes drug when they say distribute the grail its drug and Klingsor the other guy is. holds a prostitute ring and he wants to take over the drug dealing in the end when parsifal wins his if you are wagnerian, no his his revealed the grail means free drugs, no longer commercialization and so on and i was in contact already but it didn't work. if you ask me, this is my secret desire.
Ash Sarkar
you see. exactly.
you see. exactly.
Slavoj Žižek
state. a big wagner opera.
state. a big wagner opera.
Ash Sarkar
you still got time, man.
you still got time, man.
Slavoj Žižek
no. no, because... because if you were kind to remember the people and 75.
no. no, because... because if you were kind to remember the people and 75.
Ash Sarkar
your new book is called christian atheism. now, of course, one of the... first thing marx says is that in order to critic society you must first critic religion, that man must orbit himself like his own son, he must give up any commitment to the world of spirituality, idealism. that's a necessary condition for being a political actor. what was wrong with Marx? why didn't you just stick with him?
your new book is called christian atheism. now, of course, one of the... first thing marx says is that in order to critic society you must first critic religion, that man must orbit himself like his own son, he must give up any commitment to the world of spirituality, idealism. that's a necessary condition for being a political actor. what was wrong with Marx? why didn't you just stick with him?
Slavoj Žižek
okay, i like this that we don't go into this, what do i think about gaza and ukraine or what. i like that we will have at least at the beginning some time for... also this eternal questions. you know you know, with marx already, i will try to be as brief as possible, things are much more ambiguous as some very good economists, i will name you names, for example, david harvey, maybe the best interpreter of... marks today of capital. sorry if i go into this more serious stuff, but... he is behind this, you know what goes on now in. readers of marx in humanities let's be frank till10 fifteen years ago when marxists, especially frankfurt school tradition, when they referred to marx, they really meant. that introduction to Grundrisse, first chapter and maybe a little bit of fifth chapter of capital. they didn't really use it. is a tool to analyze economy today now. if you want to be in. you must say volume 2 of capital. which is about circulation, all the obstacles to free circulation, and that's it. you know, the best known part of capital is that, appendix to chapter one on commodity fetishism. and you discover something which i think today is more actual than ever. just really give marx a chance. read him. he is not saying. economy works like that in reality, but we are caught in fetish illusions. he says the exact opposite. he says, you know, the first sentence of that subapter is, a commodity may appear a simple thing. but a close analysis of it. reveals that it's full of theological tricks and so on and so on. what marx is saying is that if you are an everyday member of capitalist society, you think, what's the mystery? money, commodity is just a thing i sell, i buy, no mystery. the mystery, fetishism, is in our social activity. it is how we act. on market exchange, it's there that we follow fetishism. you know why this is so important? because today we are mostly cynics. we don't take things seriously. we think we are brutal enlightened. and the trick is no longer the old one. you have a religiously crazy guy and then you try to convince him about reality. no, at least in the western countries, people are realists. and the trick is to demonstrate to them how deeply they are still caught in superstitions. to conclude, don't be afraid, let me repeat for, i think it the 50th time, my favorite which shows this perfectly. Niels Bohr, copenhagen, quantum physics. you know, he was also a philosophical genius. i'm sorry if most of you know this story. the rumor is that he was visited in his countryside by a french scientist and the scientist noticed a horseshoe at the entrance. and so, wait a minute, i thought you were a scientist. this is superstition. i don't know how it's here, but in continental europe, horseshoe above the entrance door allegedly prevents evil spirits. you know what is Bohr's answer? i'm a scientist. of course i don't believe. that it works. but i was told it works even if you don't believe in it. that's how ideology functions today. people participate in the ritual although they don't believe in it.
okay, i like this that we don't go into this, what do i think about gaza and ukraine or what. i like that we will have at least at the beginning some time for... also this eternal questions. you know you know, with marx already, i will try to be as brief as possible, things are much more ambiguous as some very good economists, i will name you names, for example, david harvey, maybe the best interpreter of... marks today of capital. sorry if i go into this more serious stuff, but... he is behind this, you know what goes on now in. readers of marx in humanities let's be frank till10 fifteen years ago when marxists, especially frankfurt school tradition, when they referred to marx, they really meant. that introduction to Grundrisse, first chapter and maybe a little bit of fifth chapter of capital. they didn't really use it. is a tool to analyze economy today now. if you want to be in. you must say volume 2 of capital. which is about circulation, all the obstacles to free circulation, and that's it. you know, the best known part of capital is that, appendix to chapter one on commodity fetishism. and you discover something which i think today is more actual than ever. just really give marx a chance. read him. he is not saying. economy works like that in reality, but we are caught in fetish illusions. he says the exact opposite. he says, you know, the first sentence of that subapter is, a commodity may appear a simple thing. but a close analysis of it. reveals that it's full of theological tricks and so on and so on. what marx is saying is that if you are an everyday member of capitalist society, you think, what's the mystery? money, commodity is just a thing i sell, i buy, no mystery. the mystery, fetishism, is in our social activity. it is how we act. on market exchange, it's there that we follow fetishism. you know why this is so important? because today we are mostly cynics. we don't take things seriously. we think we are brutal enlightened. and the trick is no longer the old one. you have a religiously crazy guy and then you try to convince him about reality. no, at least in the western countries, people are realists. and the trick is to demonstrate to them how deeply they are still caught in superstitions. to conclude, don't be afraid, let me repeat for, i think it the 50th time, my favorite which shows this perfectly. Niels Bohr, copenhagen, quantum physics. you know, he was also a philosophical genius. i'm sorry if most of you know this story. the rumor is that he was visited in his countryside by a french scientist and the scientist noticed a horseshoe at the entrance. and so, wait a minute, i thought you were a scientist. this is superstition. i don't know how it's here, but in continental europe, horseshoe above the entrance door allegedly prevents evil spirits. you know what is Bohr's answer? i'm a scientist. of course i don't believe. that it works. but i was told it works even if you don't believe in it. that's how ideology functions today. people participate in the ritual although they don't believe in it.
Ash Sarkar
one of the things that you say in the book is that it is better to say that god is stupid, god is cruel, god is mendacious than it is to say god doesn't exist. so basically, are you saying that, look, you read the bible, i'm not going to dispute the existence. god i'm going to say he's a real bastard. is that the point you're making?
one of the things that you say in the book is that it is better to say that god is stupid, god is cruel, god is mendacious than it is to say god doesn't exist. so basically, are you saying that, look, you read the bible, i'm not going to dispute the existence. god i'm going to say he's a real bastard. is that the point you're making?
Slavoj Žižek
you know why my answer is yes, although it's more complex. my answer is yes, because what i am afraid that, of course, it's the same cynicism. today, most of the people, majority even, somebody told me a couple of days ago that in the last opinion poll, for the first time in history, christians, less than half of the british people. consider themselves christians, believe in god. but i claim that at the level of how they act, you know, they still act as if they believe. in what sense? in the sense of, sorry for this quick jump to leian theory, that there is some agency of a big other which measures, evaluate our acts. for example, the worst theology in this sense for me is the hardline stalinism. it may appear totally godless, but no, all the time stalinists say, you know, history will give us right, as if history is some virtual symbolic frame which at the end it will. decide or reveal the truth about ourselves. and the classical stalinist reply when you accuse them but look what you are doing, killing millions per g is wait at the end history will give us right. so what i don't like about usual direct materialists is that they claim something like this. yes, there is no god, but nonetheless the christian ideas are beautiful. so let's just stick to the ideas. without god and with all my respect for j. most of my jewish, french. practice the same approach, especially since many of them are now no longer my friends. they think from the river to the sea really holds for israel., they're openly saying this now. from the river to the sea, it's ours. and so i asked them, do you believe in god? they said no. and they admitted there is no god, but god nonetheless gave us the land.
you know why my answer is yes, although it's more complex. my answer is yes, because what i am afraid that, of course, it's the same cynicism. today, most of the people, majority even, somebody told me a couple of days ago that in the last opinion poll, for the first time in history, christians, less than half of the british people. consider themselves christians, believe in god. but i claim that at the level of how they act, you know, they still act as if they believe. in what sense? in the sense of, sorry for this quick jump to leian theory, that there is some agency of a big other which measures, evaluate our acts. for example, the worst theology in this sense for me is the hardline stalinism. it may appear totally godless, but no, all the time stalinists say, you know, history will give us right, as if history is some virtual symbolic frame which at the end it will. decide or reveal the truth about ourselves. and the classical stalinist reply when you accuse them but look what you are doing, killing millions per g is wait at the end history will give us right. so what i don't like about usual direct materialists is that they claim something like this. yes, there is no god, but nonetheless the christian ideas are beautiful. so let's just stick to the ideas. without god and with all my respect for j. most of my jewish, french. practice the same approach, especially since many of them are now no longer my friends. they think from the river to the sea really holds for israel., they're openly saying this now. from the river to the sea, it's ours. and so i asked them, do you believe in god? they said no. and they admitted there is no god, but god nonetheless gave us the land.
Ash Sarkar
of israel.
of israel.
Slavoj Žižek
you know, it's the same. it's incredible how this works so that many people who proclaim themselves secular. at the level of how they act. their acts are still sustained by beliefs which they don't openly admit. but they practice this belief.
you know, it's the same. it's incredible how this works so that many people who proclaim themselves secular. at the level of how they act. their acts are still sustained by beliefs which they don't openly admit. but they practice this belief.
Ash Sarkar
on the one hand, you've got the sort of secularization of politics. people don't like to talk about god, even if they act as though god is there.
on the one hand, you've got the sort of secularization of politics. people don't like to talk about god, even if they act as though god is there.
Slavoj Žižek
no.
no.
Ash Sarkar
on the other hand, you've got a demographic trend, which is religious people, particularly in the uk, tend to have a lot more children. than non-religious people.
on the other hand, you've got a demographic trend, which is religious people, particularly in the uk, tend to have a lot more children. than non-religious people.
Slavoj Žižek
date.
date.
Ash Sarkar
can this idea of a vaguely secular liberal democracy. retain its core value even as the demographic
can this idea of a vaguely secular liberal democracy. retain its core value even as the demographic
Slavoj Žižek
but i'm not saying we need a new religion or whatever. i really think that the first in getting things straight. is not to play this predominant liberal game of trump horror. new fundamentalist. i agree with this. they are. horror. and i think in some sense, trump is even. worse. then uhuh... the other bad guys like putin, xi of china and so on. you know why? because it's easy to maintain a distance towards them. you know, they are out there. but what trump is doing now you can check this in my text which appeared i think on politics synd on how we live in a very dangerous, i didn't lose my threat, don't be afraid
but i'm not saying we need a new religion or whatever. i really think that the first in getting things straight. is not to play this predominant liberal game of trump horror. new fundamentalist. i agree with this. they are. horror. and i think in some sense, trump is even. worse. then uhuh... the other bad guys like putin, xi of china and so on. you know why? because it's easy to maintain a distance towards them. you know, they are out there. but what trump is doing now you can check this in my text which appeared i think on politics synd on how we live in a very dangerous, i didn't lose my threat, don't be afraid
Ash Sarkar
i answering a different question than the one i asked, but it's interesting anyway.
i answering a different question than the one i asked, but it's interesting anyway.
Slavoj Žižek
that's called marxism in practice, you know. marxists never answer your question. no, what i want to say is that i'm really pretty desperate in politics because you know what happens now in haiti? gangs took over, criminal gangs, practically the state. but why just haiti? let's go on to the top. israel. aren't settlers not? basically gangs violating the laws but those who terrorize palestinians of the west bank, but nonetheless supported by the state. to go a step further, proud boys and other gangs which support. trump and so on. so i think that if trump wins we will really. enter. united states, but this will give signal to the world. okay, not we will enter, but it will be a signal that. now i will talk with as an old heart-style marxist. death. the ruling system of our liberal democracy cannot even reproduce itself without tolerating or even relying on illegal gangs and so on. again, you have prin private army for putin, you have proud boys, all that, you have settlers. and you know how the official power relates to them. they just silently tolerate them, use them, but they never openly appropriate them. so again, trump is for me. ah, now i'm coming to my point. immediately i will stop. what i don't buy is this liberal. reproach. off yeah, trump is a decadent phenomenon, horror, but... and that's my problem with biden. but... we act as if all we have to do is to return to good old welfare state social democracy. you know, biden is all about it. avoid the basic fact, which is that. trump is not ultimately, now we have to fight him, the true enemy. it is the weakness, the self-antagonisms of... liberal democratic new corporate capitalism which opened up the space for trump. populism.
that's called marxism in practice, you know. marxists never answer your question. no, what i want to say is that i'm really pretty desperate in politics because you know what happens now in haiti? gangs took over, criminal gangs, practically the state. but why just haiti? let's go on to the top. israel. aren't settlers not? basically gangs violating the laws but those who terrorize palestinians of the west bank, but nonetheless supported by the state. to go a step further, proud boys and other gangs which support. trump and so on. so i think that if trump wins we will really. enter. united states, but this will give signal to the world. okay, not we will enter, but it will be a signal that. now i will talk with as an old heart-style marxist. death. the ruling system of our liberal democracy cannot even reproduce itself without tolerating or even relying on illegal gangs and so on. again, you have prin private army for putin, you have proud boys, all that, you have settlers. and you know how the official power relates to them. they just silently tolerate them, use them, but they never openly appropriate them. so again, trump is for me. ah, now i'm coming to my point. immediately i will stop. what i don't buy is this liberal. reproach. off yeah, trump is a decadent phenomenon, horror, but... and that's my problem with biden. but... we act as if all we have to do is to return to good old welfare state social democracy. you know, biden is all about it. avoid the basic fact, which is that. trump is not ultimately, now we have to fight him, the true enemy. it is the weakness, the self-antagonisms of... liberal democratic new corporate capitalism which opened up the space for trump. populism.
Ash Sarkar
you raised the point of armed settlers in israel operating like a gang and you said they're operating in violation of the law. and of course, technically they're operating in violation of the law. the reality is that most armed settler attacks are never charged, are never prosecuted. it.
you raised the point of armed settlers in israel operating like a gang and you said they're operating in violation of the law. and of course, technically they're operating in violation of the law. the reality is that most armed settler attacks are never charged, are never prosecuted. it.
Slavoj Žižek
it's even worse.
it's even worse.
Ash Sarkar
and the state.
and the state.
Slavoj Žižek
not even this. it's even worse. Itamar Ben-Gvir. who was convicted in israel 15 years ago as a terrorist. by the state of israel. is's now, what? it sounds like a bad joke. it's no minister for national security. who is giving it openly. gangks are in. power.
not even this. it's even worse. Itamar Ben-Gvir. who was convicted in israel 15 years ago as a terrorist. by the state of israel. is's now, what? it sounds like a bad joke. it's no minister for national security. who is giving it openly. gangks are in. power.
Ash Sarkar
is that not the game of settler colonialism? you might compare it to the american west. you had gangs of armed cowboys displacing, murdering, humiliating indigenous people.
is that not the game of settler colonialism? you might compare it to the american west. you had gangs of armed cowboys displacing, murdering, humiliating indigenous people.
Slavoj Žižek
you know, there is even another thing, although i may disappoint you here. i do i do uh. condone, reject hamash's attack. i think you cannot simply redeem it as maybe excessive, but nonetheless an act of armed resistance. but i agree with you, you know where. a miracle. i read many books on the wild west, how it worked. you know that of let's say white settlers were in united states. mid-19th century gradually penetrating the west. and it is true. that sometimes men. mostly the apache, comanche, also others. counterattack. they did cruel things like baron alone farm, blah, blah, blah. and this was used in exactly the same way as today. israel attacks. palestinians. you see this not only generally, like you see, you focus on this cruelty, it's even worse. you know that the one who really opened up the door to the west is the president who was in the meeting. 30 general jackson, was it henry jackson. the first and here we come to the tragedy. jackson was the first populist president. he elevated uh. he almost generalized the right to vote so that you don't have any illusions about the united states, all those first years, first decade. when it was thomas jefferson president and so on. but you know how many? americans! i mean, those. colonists and later in the early decades of the united states, how many of the people voted? between one and and a half%. only with jackson we approach something close to our demo, but at the same time, jackson was the one who opened up. invade to the west. and now... it's really an intriguing parallel with israel. do you know? that he already used not the term, but the whole logic of humanitarian resettlement. he said the only way to save the whatever you call them, native americans, indians, i have a couple of... native american friends, they all prefer the term indian. and...
you know, there is even another thing, although i may disappoint you here. i do i do uh. condone, reject hamash's attack. i think you cannot simply redeem it as maybe excessive, but nonetheless an act of armed resistance. but i agree with you, you know where. a miracle. i read many books on the wild west, how it worked. you know that of let's say white settlers were in united states. mid-19th century gradually penetrating the west. and it is true. that sometimes men. mostly the apache, comanche, also others. counterattack. they did cruel things like baron alone farm, blah, blah, blah. and this was used in exactly the same way as today. israel attacks. palestinians. you see this not only generally, like you see, you focus on this cruelty, it's even worse. you know that the one who really opened up the door to the west is the president who was in the meeting. 30 general jackson, was it henry jackson. the first and here we come to the tragedy. jackson was the first populist president. he elevated uh. he almost generalized the right to vote so that you don't have any illusions about the united states, all those first years, first decade. when it was thomas jefferson president and so on. but you know how many? americans! i mean, those. colonists and later in the early decades of the united states, how many of the people voted? between one and and a half%. only with jackson we approach something close to our demo, but at the same time, jackson was the one who opened up. invade to the west. and now... it's really an intriguing parallel with israel. do you know? that he already used not the term, but the whole logic of humanitarian resettlement. he said the only way to save the whatever you call them, native americans, indians, i have a couple of... native american friends, they all prefer the term indian. and...
Ash Sarkar
they're not here to speak for themselves.
they're not here to speak for themselves.
Slavoj Žižek
study?
study?
Ash Sarkar
they're not here to confirm or deny what you've just said.
they're not here to confirm or deny what you've just said.
Slavoj Žižek
this from them, you know why? they told me, very intelligent reasoning, sorry to repeat an old story. they told me, we native americans, what are you then? cultural americans. we are not part of nature. and then one of them told me my old story. it happened 30 years ago in missoula, montana. one of them said, i much prefer to be called an indian because in this case, my name is at least a symbol of the stupidity of white people who thought they are in india. no, no, no!... and now i will go to slightly different direction to provoke you. personally, i like so much talking with this truly excluded racial. blacks, native, whatever you call them, okay, native americans and so on, because they are so sensitive. not so much to outright racism as to this more subtle, patronizing liberal white racism. for example, they hate it so much when, and it often happens to me, i'm like that, mother, god created me like this. i like to make vulgar remarks and so on. and then always, often liberals send me, but wait,, you cannot talk like this. you may hurt them, you know. no and then always my black or whatever friend, sorry, we will tell him if we are hurt. don't assume this role of as if we are. half vulnerable children, idiots and we have to be protected all the time. i am very good friends with ch. okay. native americans, blacks and so on. and you know what is, i mean not go into details, it would be too much for you, but you know what is the way i really become friends with them. we exchange racist insults all the way. because you know i think that without an opening for insults. we are in this respectful attitude which is just self-terrorizing racism. the magic, you will not agree, i wanted to provoke you here.
this from them, you know why? they told me, very intelligent reasoning, sorry to repeat an old story. they told me, we native americans, what are you then? cultural americans. we are not part of nature. and then one of them told me my old story. it happened 30 years ago in missoula, montana. one of them said, i much prefer to be called an indian because in this case, my name is at least a symbol of the stupidity of white people who thought they are in india. no, no, no!... and now i will go to slightly different direction to provoke you. personally, i like so much talking with this truly excluded racial. blacks, native, whatever you call them, okay, native americans and so on, because they are so sensitive. not so much to outright racism as to this more subtle, patronizing liberal white racism. for example, they hate it so much when, and it often happens to me, i'm like that, mother, god created me like this. i like to make vulgar remarks and so on. and then always, often liberals send me, but wait,, you cannot talk like this. you may hurt them, you know. no and then always my black or whatever friend, sorry, we will tell him if we are hurt. don't assume this role of as if we are. half vulnerable children, idiots and we have to be protected all the time. i am very good friends with ch. okay. native americans, blacks and so on. and you know what is, i mean not go into details, it would be too much for you, but you know what is the way i really become friends with them. we exchange racist insults all the way. because you know i think that without an opening for insults. we are in this respectful attitude which is just self-terrorizing racism. the magic, you will not agree, i wanted to provoke you here.
Ash Sarkar
is there not a third option here, right? because i agree with you. i hate this liberal... politeness. infantilization, policing of language, i can't stand it because what it conce.
is there not a third option here, right? because i agree with you. i hate this liberal... politeness. infantilization, policing of language, i can't stand it because what it conce.
Slavoj Žižek
that is a hope for you.
that is a hope for you.
Ash Sarkar
is a core of racism.
is a core of racism.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah.
yeah.
Ash Sarkar
that as long as you're clever enough to not say it out loud, no one can condemn you, right? i can't stand it. but i don't buy. that the only antidote to it is coarseness, vulgarity, and racist language.
that as long as you're clever enough to not say it out loud, no one can condemn you, right? i can't stand it. but i don't buy. that the only antidote to it is coarseness, vulgarity, and racist language.
Slavoj Žižek
wait a minute, a minute. let me now be more specific. this. we have to do here, as lenin would have put it, concrete analysis of concrete situation. there are dignified older people. of course, i wouldn't tell them, screw your mother or whatever, you know. i'm not saying this. i'm just saying that... it's my elementary experience too. to establish a true proximity. to another, beyond this polite exchange, there has to be a moment of, it can be gentle, relaxed vulgarity. but it doesn't always work. i'm the first to agree this with you. for example, if somebody was, a lady was raped, something horrible and so on, i know you don't make... vulgar jokes on that, you know. but now let me give you here the ultimate proof and then i hope this will satisfy you. you know that it interests me, it was an old intrigue for me. why are? the few good movies about holocaust comedies. from life is beautiful to Pasqualino Settebellezze, much better. and then a jewish friend explained it to me. he said that to mourn properly holocaust, jews themselves needed sometime, 10, 15 years. it began like the greatest book, the absolute book, Primo Levi, if this is a man,. you know that for the first decade it was ignored. it's only in the late 50s. why? because, you know, it's the same lesson as i had with my son. when he was young, if he falls down, cuts himself, the problem is not that he is crying. the moment he is crying, it's already relaxation. we are back to normal. the problem is that pure shock before. and it was something similar. we. i, by chance, know only the analysis a friend of mine who teaches in stanford is doing it for holocaust and for the famous Srebrenica massacre in bosnia. you know how they survived? by making fun of themselves, by telling dirty jokes about themselves. it's in some sense, the point of these jokes is not, or it's just a joke. there is an admission that it's so traumatic that we are not yet able to fully confront it, to mourn it. proper. it's a very interesting story. for example, the one whom i otherwise don't like so much, Elie Wiesel. do i pronounce it correctly? the other who wrote memoirs of... Elie. i like Wiesel, why. he he enumerates some of these wonderful theological jokes or what happens in bosnia, Srebrenica jokes and so on. you know, jokes are very ambiguous things sometimes. when a situation is really terrible, tragedy is already a betrayal because tragedy means, let's say i do something horrible to you, tragedy means you still retain your dignity and are able to heroically, no, you can kill me, i will not. but when times are really, or places horrifying, like holocaust, gulag at a different level. you cannot play a tragic hero. there, it's too desperate.
wait a minute, a minute. let me now be more specific. this. we have to do here, as lenin would have put it, concrete analysis of concrete situation. there are dignified older people. of course, i wouldn't tell them, screw your mother or whatever, you know. i'm not saying this. i'm just saying that... it's my elementary experience too. to establish a true proximity. to another, beyond this polite exchange, there has to be a moment of, it can be gentle, relaxed vulgarity. but it doesn't always work. i'm the first to agree this with you. for example, if somebody was, a lady was raped, something horrible and so on, i know you don't make... vulgar jokes on that, you know. but now let me give you here the ultimate proof and then i hope this will satisfy you. you know that it interests me, it was an old intrigue for me. why are? the few good movies about holocaust comedies. from life is beautiful to Pasqualino Settebellezze, much better. and then a jewish friend explained it to me. he said that to mourn properly holocaust, jews themselves needed sometime, 10, 15 years. it began like the greatest book, the absolute book, Primo Levi, if this is a man,. you know that for the first decade it was ignored. it's only in the late 50s. why? because, you know, it's the same lesson as i had with my son. when he was young, if he falls down, cuts himself, the problem is not that he is crying. the moment he is crying, it's already relaxation. we are back to normal. the problem is that pure shock before. and it was something similar. we. i, by chance, know only the analysis a friend of mine who teaches in stanford is doing it for holocaust and for the famous Srebrenica massacre in bosnia. you know how they survived? by making fun of themselves, by telling dirty jokes about themselves. it's in some sense, the point of these jokes is not, or it's just a joke. there is an admission that it's so traumatic that we are not yet able to fully confront it, to mourn it. proper. it's a very interesting story. for example, the one whom i otherwise don't like so much, Elie Wiesel. do i pronounce it correctly? the other who wrote memoirs of... Elie. i like Wiesel, why. he he enumerates some of these wonderful theological jokes or what happens in bosnia, Srebrenica jokes and so on. you know, jokes are very ambiguous things sometimes. when a situation is really terrible, tragedy is already a betrayal because tragedy means, let's say i do something horrible to you, tragedy means you still retain your dignity and are able to heroically, no, you can kill me, i will not. but when times are really, or places horrifying, like holocaust, gulag at a different level. you cannot play a tragic hero. there, it's too desperate.
Ash Sarkar
i want to move on to something that you talk about in the book, which is that you say that the left must fully assume the slogan of law and order. but of course, law and order isn't just a slogan, it's a series of practices. so is what you're talking about that the left should... better market itself using the language of law and order or that we should get quite comfortable with the state using its full brutality against for an abject piece.
i want to move on to something that you talk about in the book, which is that you say that the left must fully assume the slogan of law and order. but of course, law and order isn't just a slogan, it's a series of practices. so is what you're talking about that the left should... better market itself using the language of law and order or that we should get quite comfortable with the state using its full brutality against for an abject piece.
Slavoj Žižek
tot totally see your point here. wanted to make or to render open the following insight a guy with whom i was in a dialogue and i. don't agree with him politically, of course, although he is a relatively liberal zionist, Yuval Harari. he said in a quite nice way, i think, that the strange thing that is happening in the last decade or so is that what before was the characteristic of the radical left, you know like obscenity, shouting at representatives of power, a little bit of violence and so on, that this is now more and more taken over by the new popul. right. my's my old story, maybe i repeat it even in this book, but you remember.
tot totally see your point here. wanted to make or to render open the following insight a guy with whom i was in a dialogue and i. don't agree with him politically, of course, although he is a relatively liberal zionist, Yuval Harari. he said in a quite nice way, i think, that the strange thing that is happening in the last decade or so is that what before was the characteristic of the radical left, you know like obscenity, shouting at representatives of power, a little bit of violence and so on, that this is now more and more taken over by the new popul. right. my's my old story, maybe i repeat it even in this book, but you remember.
Ash Sarkar
what was it?
what was it?
Slavoj Žižek
three years ago, more 6th of january, 21 inauguration. you know what happened there? organized people it was all a fake but look at the appearance crowd of people invaded broke into Capitol. Capitol. my leftist friends were crying. they said, what is going on? we should be doing it, you know. i think that this is a very sad fact the new. with the new pop right. the existing regime, as i said before, apro propos criminal gangs, is... violating brutally its own. rules so let me. make my standard point clear, what do i mean by it? you know that. trump and his guys, if you listen to them. act as if they are a strong moral majority, christianians, values, and so on. but look at how trump acts. he's the ultimate post-modern cynical relativist. he tells dirty jokes he inkos relativizes. and what i'm tempted to say. is death. to oppose bernie sanders to trump, if you look at how bernie sanders acts, isn't he. i know it's crazy what i been saying now. a beautiful case of modest moral majority, decency of common people and so on. so what i am. claiming is dead. what if the left... playsagues down a little bit this enjoyment in brutal demonstrations and so on and more and more. simply adopts the rule of sorry, we are the true moral majority. you are dirty, violent criminals and so on.
three years ago, more 6th of january, 21 inauguration. you know what happened there? organized people it was all a fake but look at the appearance crowd of people invaded broke into Capitol. Capitol. my leftist friends were crying. they said, what is going on? we should be doing it, you know. i think that this is a very sad fact the new. with the new pop right. the existing regime, as i said before, apro propos criminal gangs, is... violating brutally its own. rules so let me. make my standard point clear, what do i mean by it? you know that. trump and his guys, if you listen to them. act as if they are a strong moral majority, christianians, values, and so on. but look at how trump acts. he's the ultimate post-modern cynical relativist. he tells dirty jokes he inkos relativizes. and what i'm tempted to say. is death. to oppose bernie sanders to trump, if you look at how bernie sanders acts, isn't he. i know it's crazy what i been saying now. a beautiful case of modest moral majority, decency of common people and so on. so what i am. claiming is dead. what if the left... playsagues down a little bit this enjoyment in brutal demonstrations and so on and more and more. simply adopts the rule of sorry, we are the true moral majority. you are dirty, violent criminals and so on.
Ash Sarkar
does that not bring you into some kind of alignment with the rules-obsessed liberals that you were just decrying about 10 minutes ago?
does that not bring you into some kind of alignment with the rules-obsessed liberals that you were just decrying about 10 minutes ago?
Slavoj Žižek
no, because these liberals, no, if you... mean by this. these rules obsessed. w or rather cancel culture liberals, no? i have there one point.
no, because these liberals, no, if you... mean by this. these rules obsessed. w or rather cancel culture liberals, no? i have there one point.
Ash Sarkar
but just that, just that, but the sort of people who, when brexit was going on here were saying, you can't do that, it's unlawful. and of course boris johnson just did.
but just that, just that, but the sort of people who, when brexit was going on here were saying, you can't do that, it's unlawful. and of course boris johnson just did.
Slavoj Žižek
i see, yeah, i see what i mean, but i'm now... talking about something much more naive even. i'm not talking about what you do here. i'm sorry, i'm an old leftist. i'm still a communist. i think that to seriously, and not a naive communist, there will be paradise, blah, blah, but communist in the simple sense that look at where our societies are going with ecological crisis, with international relations, immigrants, with war threat and so on. it's clear that the only thing that can save us, all of us, humanity, is earth... somehow to step out from the nation state. frame and a much stronger form of international collaboration, where i'm also not naive, i'm not saying socialized means of production, but i'm saying a much stronger social control of them. and i already see the beginning of them. the only thing that i liked about the pandemic is even people who are certainly not communists like boris johnson and trump. they even were forced to do some things like evoking an old law from roosevelt time that the government can order directly industry what to produce or giving under under trump, every family got a check of 2,000 and so on. of course then most of it went to large corporations, but i think it is clear, here i agree with Varoufakis. capitalism as we knew it is coming to an end. i don't always. agree with Varoufakis with his notion of techno-feudalism, but i see the phenomenon that he is trying to describe. because look, people like name them, Jeff Bezos, elon musk, bill gates, these are no longer ordinary capitalists. they control a whole sphere of what, in the tradition of marx, i call commons. the commons, for example, of book distribution, blah blah blah it's best. i heard from my publishers again and again that my type of humanities books, 60 to 70 percent are sold through amazon. if amazon wants they can destroy you. so again, what i'm saying is that something new is emerging, here i agree with Varoufakis, which is potentially even worse than. cut. capitalism. traditional the traditional capitalism, it was possible to regulate it, to control it. through welfare state mechanisms. this no longer works. the next thing that is important here is you know, who is today potentially the subject of radical change, of emancipation? i think it's no longer automatically whatever remains of the old working class. we have precarious workers. we have what is from the standpoint of market? of money exchange the invisible work. like my good friend, i say this sincerely, i'm proud to know him, alvaro garcia linera, the ex-vice president of bolivia. he told me that's what they got. there. it's not just the working class. they are even up to a point slightly privileged. you have a permanent job. retirement money, health care, what about, especially in bolivia, i was told. thousands of women hired. illegally, illegally, but no. official registration to do the dirty housework. to do the hardest and so on. so we have this entire sphere. then we can even talk. other friends of mine, some friends in denmark, developed the notion of ecological exploitation. uh. for example, if in north of canada, although, at some point people were praising trudeau, but the problem was that when they did, how do you call it, solely, fracking, this new procedure, of extracting oil, no. franking.
i see, yeah, i see what i mean, but i'm now... talking about something much more naive even. i'm not talking about what you do here. i'm sorry, i'm an old leftist. i'm still a communist. i think that to seriously, and not a naive communist, there will be paradise, blah, blah, but communist in the simple sense that look at where our societies are going with ecological crisis, with international relations, immigrants, with war threat and so on. it's clear that the only thing that can save us, all of us, humanity, is earth... somehow to step out from the nation state. frame and a much stronger form of international collaboration, where i'm also not naive, i'm not saying socialized means of production, but i'm saying a much stronger social control of them. and i already see the beginning of them. the only thing that i liked about the pandemic is even people who are certainly not communists like boris johnson and trump. they even were forced to do some things like evoking an old law from roosevelt time that the government can order directly industry what to produce or giving under under trump, every family got a check of 2,000 and so on. of course then most of it went to large corporations, but i think it is clear, here i agree with Varoufakis. capitalism as we knew it is coming to an end. i don't always. agree with Varoufakis with his notion of techno-feudalism, but i see the phenomenon that he is trying to describe. because look, people like name them, Jeff Bezos, elon musk, bill gates, these are no longer ordinary capitalists. they control a whole sphere of what, in the tradition of marx, i call commons. the commons, for example, of book distribution, blah blah blah it's best. i heard from my publishers again and again that my type of humanities books, 60 to 70 percent are sold through amazon. if amazon wants they can destroy you. so again, what i'm saying is that something new is emerging, here i agree with Varoufakis, which is potentially even worse than. cut. capitalism. traditional the traditional capitalism, it was possible to regulate it, to control it. through welfare state mechanisms. this no longer works. the next thing that is important here is you know, who is today potentially the subject of radical change, of emancipation? i think it's no longer automatically whatever remains of the old working class. we have precarious workers. we have what is from the standpoint of market? of money exchange the invisible work. like my good friend, i say this sincerely, i'm proud to know him, alvaro garcia linera, the ex-vice president of bolivia. he told me that's what they got. there. it's not just the working class. they are even up to a point slightly privileged. you have a permanent job. retirement money, health care, what about, especially in bolivia, i was told. thousands of women hired. illegally, illegally, but no. official registration to do the dirty housework. to do the hardest and so on. so we have this entire sphere. then we can even talk. other friends of mine, some friends in denmark, developed the notion of ecological exploitation. uh. for example, if in north of canada, although, at some point people were praising trudeau, but the problem was that when they did, how do you call it, solely, fracking, this new procedure, of extracting oil, no. franking.
Ash Sarkar
yeah, i mean, the thing that struck me as you were talking. is not just about who are the working class and what do they constitute and how do you organise them, but also what are choke points in capitalism.
yeah, i mean, the thing that struck me as you were talking. is not just about who are the working class and what do they constitute and how do you organise them, but also what are choke points in capitalism.
Slavoj Žižek
s what.
s what.
Ash Sarkar
what are choke points in global capitalism? choke points where all goods have to flow. and if you interrupt that flow of goods, you strategically have a very strong position. are the Houthis not showing communists how it's done?
what are choke points in global capitalism? choke points where all goods have to flow. and if you interrupt that flow of goods, you strategically have a very strong position. are the Houthis not showing communists how it's done?
Slavoj Žižek
Houthis, you mean those in.
Houthis, you mean those in.
Ash Sarkar
in the red sea.
in the red sea.
Slavoj Žižek
uh... you know, i have... problems with them because for me, it's always important when you do such things. i always think in the terms, i may be wrong, of potential universalization. and i don't see that potential. if you we talk about things like this, my ideal, if there is a thing in the last years which really... gave me hope. it was, i forgot the lady's name, i'm so sorry, that kurdish student max, i mean, who was killed in iran. and then this was something wonderful. that was for me true feminism. not these culture struggles, but tens of thousands ordinary people in iran. identified with her fight. it became a common denominator of the entire social dissatisfaction.
uh... you know, i have... problems with them because for me, it's always important when you do such things. i always think in the terms, i may be wrong, of potential universalization. and i don't see that potential. if you we talk about things like this, my ideal, if there is a thing in the last years which really... gave me hope. it was, i forgot the lady's name, i'm so sorry, that kurdish student max, i mean, who was killed in iran. and then this was something wonderful. that was for me true feminism. not these culture struggles, but tens of thousands ordinary people in iran. identified with her fight. it became a common denominator of the entire social dissatisfaction.
Ash Sarkar
is it maybe also not the case that that's something which is extremely palatable to the west because it's in line with our values and it's a cause which i think of as very, very just. but... the houthis are of course, islamists. they've got incredibly regressive ideas around lgbt rights and women. but when it comes to the tactic. the tactic of interrupting trade through the red sea. of forcing trade to go around the cape of good hope. there's a reason why they're loathed by the west, and it's not just for their ideas, it's because they found a tactic that works.
is it maybe also not the case that that's something which is extremely palatable to the west because it's in line with our values and it's a cause which i think of as very, very just. but... the houthis are of course, islamists. they've got incredibly regressive ideas around lgbt rights and women. but when it comes to the tactic. the tactic of interrupting trade through the red sea. of forcing trade to go around the cape of good hope. there's a reason why they're loathed by the west, and it's not just for their ideas, it's because they found a tactic that works.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, but... do you think? the effect. will be felt mostly by ordinary people in the west. i claim they will be much more hurt. and that's what... what is mit there. for me, i don't.
yeah, but... do you think? the effect. will be felt mostly by ordinary people in the west. i claim they will be much more hurt. and that's what... what is mit there. for me, i don't.
Ash Sarkar
believe.
believe.
Slavoj Žižek
death. the struggle goes today along the lines. eh. of the developed west where there is no longer working class as some of my leftist friends are telling me, the west is totally corrupted, it's all what lenin called workers' aristocracy and our only hope are third world immigrants and so on and so on. i respectfully disagree with this because as david harvey, my marxist american friend. ultimate economist today told me, first, do you know in the 2008 crisis what enormous destruction this crisis called in small half-abandoned american cities and so on and so on. and the left ignored that chance and then paradoxically trump. gott.
death. the struggle goes today along the lines. eh. of the developed west where there is no longer working class as some of my leftist friends are telling me, the west is totally corrupted, it's all what lenin called workers' aristocracy and our only hope are third world immigrants and so on and so on. i respectfully disagree with this because as david harvey, my marxist american friend. ultimate economist today told me, first, do you know in the 2008 crisis what enormous destruction this crisis called in small half-abandoned american cities and so on and so on. and the left ignored that chance and then paradoxically trump. gott.
Ash Sarkar
ghost.
ghost.
Slavoj Žižek
vote. the second thing. i'm not saying... we fl. directly export our values to the third. well, our notion of human rights and so on and so on. i agree with you here. but when you mention the Houthis nonetheless there. the hardline islam is not lgbtq. but aren't here they an example of something that worries me. you probably must know what is going now not only in uganda, but also in some other african countries. they are radicalizing the legislation against... gay people, homosexuality. justifying it in the terms of resisting western colonialism. in uganda, i followed it closely. they have now a new law where if you are caught in homosexual act, it can be either life imprisonment or death penalty. and i did something that not many journalists did. i went to look at their newspapers. it was all about, that's our resistance to colonialism. so there is a limit here for me in the sense of i'm afraid to draw this conclusion. the main thing is to fight against western. capitalism, so. let's forget about how they treat women and so on. no, i'm not ready to do. d.
vote. the second thing. i'm not saying... we fl. directly export our values to the third. well, our notion of human rights and so on and so on. i agree with you here. but when you mention the Houthis nonetheless there. the hardline islam is not lgbtq. but aren't here they an example of something that worries me. you probably must know what is going now not only in uganda, but also in some other african countries. they are radicalizing the legislation against... gay people, homosexuality. justifying it in the terms of resisting western colonialism. in uganda, i followed it closely. they have now a new law where if you are caught in homosexual act, it can be either life imprisonment or death penalty. and i did something that not many journalists did. i went to look at their newspapers. it was all about, that's our resistance to colonialism. so there is a limit here for me in the sense of i'm afraid to draw this conclusion. the main thing is to fight against western. capitalism, so. let's forget about how they treat women and so on. no, i'm not ready to do. d.
Ash Sarkar
let's go to a q&a, but after this talk, we're going to have a conversation about tax.
let's go to a q&a, but after this talk, we're going to have a conversation about tax.
Slavoj Žižek
sorry seriously disappointed me now because i thought you will counterattack.
sorry seriously disappointed me now because i thought you will counterattack.
Ash Sarkar
you know what i mean?
you know what i mean?
Slavoj Žižek
i think if you ask me, this is a serious problem. on the one hand,
i think if you ask me, this is a serious problem. on the one hand,
Ash Sarkar
alright, right, if you want me to counter-attack, i'll counter-attack. one. yeah.
alright, right, if you want me to counter-attack, i'll counter-attack. one. yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
you see, that's what.
you see, that's what.
Ash Sarkar
i'm so easily goaded. one. a lot of the anti-lgbt legislation which is being passed in africa.
i'm so easily goaded. one. a lot of the anti-lgbt legislation which is being passed in africa.
Slavoj Žižek
tell me.
tell me.
Ash Sarkar
and.
and.
Slavoj Žižek
baptists are influential.
baptists are influential.
Ash Sarkar
no, that is one strong element, which is a lot of this is being funded from churches which operate in america and in europe. the liberal consensus around lgbt rights in europe and in america is very strong. there's of course a massive glaring exception around trans people. but where you're able to, i think, connect this deeply violent homophobic project, and it's also one which is about rolling back the clock on women's rights and also preventing women's rights from being established, you can combine that with a sort of... crude caricature of anti-colonialism and it will work. it's a strategy which has worked for western churches to operate in africa. what i'm talking about with the houthis isn't are they goodies or are they baddies? what i'm saying is that have they identified a tactic? that leftists should be learning from. so don't look at. organizing your own workplace. like i'm sorry, it's maybe not that strategically effective to organize in whatever ngos we all work in here. maybe it is much more effective to know hijack an oil tanker. that's something which can bring global capital to its knees. introducing a four-day week in your particular corner of the charity sector isn't.
no, that is one strong element, which is a lot of this is being funded from churches which operate in america and in europe. the liberal consensus around lgbt rights in europe and in america is very strong. there's of course a massive glaring exception around trans people. but where you're able to, i think, connect this deeply violent homophobic project, and it's also one which is about rolling back the clock on women's rights and also preventing women's rights from being established, you can combine that with a sort of... crude caricature of anti-colonialism and it will work. it's a strategy which has worked for western churches to operate in africa. what i'm talking about with the houthis isn't are they goodies or are they baddies? what i'm saying is that have they identified a tactic? that leftists should be learning from. so don't look at. organizing your own workplace. like i'm sorry, it's maybe not that strategically effective to organize in whatever ngos we all work in here. maybe it is much more effective to know hijack an oil tanker. that's something which can bring global capital to its knees. introducing a four-day week in your particular corner of the charity sector isn't.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah.
yeah.
Ash Sarkar
that's the thing i'm talking about.
that's the thing i'm talking about.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, but...
yeah, but...
Ash Sarkar
and do you want to go to q&a?
and do you want to go to q&a?
Slavoj Žižek
again, here also we should be realists in the sense that do you think that what Houthis are doing there has a universal potential in the sense that workers in the west or even in other third world countries will say, oh my god, aren't they really doing something that we should have been doing, interrupting the flow and so on and so on. i am just skeptical there. i'm here a hegelian. hegel is not a stupid idealist who thinks, oh, somehow the good side will always win. no, hegel, the hegelian today, is always a guy who, when a good idea comes, his question is, how can things go wrong? with even the best with even the best and here again, my opposition to Houthis is not moral. i even had a sympathy so that i will hopefully convince you that i'm not bluffing. i even had a sympathy with somali pirates, you know. the idea was, oh, islamist fanatics robbing ships there. yeah, but what people, most of the people. didn't mention is that what drove the somalian somalis to such a despair. big international countries with their fishing, gigantic. fishing they depleted the sea there. they totally ruined the way they got most of the food. and it was just a very desperate act. to try to begin to attack. but now i will strike back if i may, at this level with you know what was a singular most. depressive experience that i had. in the last year. the last summer where i work at Birkbeck school. we had two. ladies, wonderful ladies, my god, this sounds male, from south africa. anc, old fighter, stop. and i asked one of these ladies, listen, let's be frank. i read all the bullshit about south africa, a failed state and so on. like tell me what should i. what should be my reply to people who are well-meaning, they are not openly racist. nonetheless, she and she told me very honestly something that almost made me cry. she told me, you know what is now in among the poor? blacks in south africa. more and more the predominant experience of life. i made me cry the nostalgia for a part. because she told me, listen, the standard of living... for black majority is no better than under apartheid, maybe in some parts with new unemployment even worse, while south africa was a police state, which nonetheless meant it was some basic safety. now, it's violence, all that really happened in south africa is that the old white ruling class is joined by a new black ruling class. and you see these are, for me, the tragedy of africa. because then, of course, you feed the white liberals who they are proud to say, look, give me one example where blacks took over and they didn't screw up. the economy and so on. i'm very realistic here. the same, another provocation to you. fuck them.
again, here also we should be realists in the sense that do you think that what Houthis are doing there has a universal potential in the sense that workers in the west or even in other third world countries will say, oh my god, aren't they really doing something that we should have been doing, interrupting the flow and so on and so on. i am just skeptical there. i'm here a hegelian. hegel is not a stupid idealist who thinks, oh, somehow the good side will always win. no, hegel, the hegelian today, is always a guy who, when a good idea comes, his question is, how can things go wrong? with even the best with even the best and here again, my opposition to Houthis is not moral. i even had a sympathy so that i will hopefully convince you that i'm not bluffing. i even had a sympathy with somali pirates, you know. the idea was, oh, islamist fanatics robbing ships there. yeah, but what people, most of the people. didn't mention is that what drove the somalian somalis to such a despair. big international countries with their fishing, gigantic. fishing they depleted the sea there. they totally ruined the way they got most of the food. and it was just a very desperate act. to try to begin to attack. but now i will strike back if i may, at this level with you know what was a singular most. depressive experience that i had. in the last year. the last summer where i work at Birkbeck school. we had two. ladies, wonderful ladies, my god, this sounds male, from south africa. anc, old fighter, stop. and i asked one of these ladies, listen, let's be frank. i read all the bullshit about south africa, a failed state and so on. like tell me what should i. what should be my reply to people who are well-meaning, they are not openly racist. nonetheless, she and she told me very honestly something that almost made me cry. she told me, you know what is now in among the poor? blacks in south africa. more and more the predominant experience of life. i made me cry the nostalgia for a part. because she told me, listen, the standard of living... for black majority is no better than under apartheid, maybe in some parts with new unemployment even worse, while south africa was a police state, which nonetheless meant it was some basic safety. now, it's violence, all that really happened in south africa is that the old white ruling class is joined by a new black ruling class. and you see these are, for me, the tragedy of africa. because then, of course, you feed the white liberals who they are proud to say, look, give me one example where blacks took over and they didn't screw up. the economy and so on. i'm very realistic here. the same, another provocation to you. fuck them.
Ash Sarkar
oh no, they.
oh no, they.
Slavoj Žižek
no, no. no, no, just one. just one thing. you know what's also my problem? don't misunderstand me. when i criticize for many people in a too brutal way, cancel culture and all that, my point is not they are too radical. no, their radicalism is for me a fake one. for example, a heian... here enters the notion of concrete universality. i only think when you have an ideological trend, it's... or crucial to identify what concrete image of or case h put exemplifies this? you know, for example, you remember john major. you don't remember him too well, but
no, no. no, no, just one. just one thing. you know what's also my problem? don't misunderstand me. when i criticize for many people in a too brutal way, cancel culture and all that, my point is not they are too radical. no, their radicalism is for me a fake one. for example, a heian... here enters the notion of concrete universality. i only think when you have an ideological trend, it's... or crucial to identify what concrete image of or case h put exemplifies this? you know, for example, you remember john major. you don't remember him too well, but
Ash Sarkar
i was five years old when john major was ousted from government.
i was five years old when john major was ousted from government.
Slavoj Žižek
env you why is this a just world where you were five and i was already over 50 at that point? no, it's not the right. but okay, what i wanted to say is that they admitted social crisis but they it was incredible operation purely symbolic, easy to understand for a lian. maybe if you are some of you old enough here in, they were. they elevate it single unemployed mother into the symbol of all evil.
env you why is this a just world where you were five and i was already over 50 at that point? no, it's not the right. but okay, what i wanted to say is that they admitted social crisis but they it was incredible operation purely symbolic, easy to understand for a lian. maybe if you are some of you old enough here in, they were. they elevate it single unemployed mother into the symbol of all evil.
Ash Sarkar
it was the back to basics campaign.
it was the back to basics campaign.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, yeah, yeah. they said drugs, yeah, because single unemployed mothers, they do this. violence against children, violent children, because single she was the symbol. in a similar way, what i didn't like at least in how me too functioned a couple of years ago, it was that the typical scene was always men putting pressure on a woman. and yes means yes, like, is there a pressure? is she allowed to reject the advances and so on? first, i didn't like here. to paint a woman as just defending herself and so on. more important thing. but isn't it, you know, where people understand i was in mexico city at some point there and met feminists, mexican feminists whom i love, they gave me a simple example which possesses me. they told me, okay, your american examples. a half-t actress, a producer tells her, you go with me to bed. okay, okay, it's sad, but can you even compare it with what? with this. imagine you are not you you, a symbolic you. you are a... lower class woman meet 30ish with two, three children. without a job, your husband sustains you and you are, sorry for this male sovinist phrase, you are losing, at least in the man's your sexual attraction. and even if the husband is not beating you or what, you are ignored. you have absolutely no chance to leave him to survive alone. isn't this a terrifying, hopeless life? i would approach the problems in this way. how does real feminine everyday suffering?
yeah, yeah, yeah. they said drugs, yeah, because single unemployed mothers, they do this. violence against children, violent children, because single she was the symbol. in a similar way, what i didn't like at least in how me too functioned a couple of years ago, it was that the typical scene was always men putting pressure on a woman. and yes means yes, like, is there a pressure? is she allowed to reject the advances and so on? first, i didn't like here. to paint a woman as just defending herself and so on. more important thing. but isn't it, you know, where people understand i was in mexico city at some point there and met feminists, mexican feminists whom i love, they gave me a simple example which possesses me. they told me, okay, your american examples. a half-t actress, a producer tells her, you go with me to bed. okay, okay, it's sad, but can you even compare it with what? with this. imagine you are not you you, a symbolic you. you are a... lower class woman meet 30ish with two, three children. without a job, your husband sustains you and you are, sorry for this male sovinist phrase, you are losing, at least in the man's your sexual attraction. and even if the husband is not beating you or what, you are ignored. you have absolutely no chance to leave him to survive alone. isn't this a terrifying, hopeless life? i would approach the problems in this way. how does real feminine everyday suffering?
Ash Sarkar
so where i agree with you is that i think much of what we call identity politics today focuses on the most economically and politically privileged people who may also be black, brown, trans, female, whatever. and focuses on their experience and doesn't focus on the experience of people who are also economically ab. i agree with you there. but if we're going to talk about cancel culture a very simple rule of thumb which i get from marx, and i always try and apply whatever i'm doing is i always remember to myself, conditions shape consciousness. so let's think about your conditions. you're a man, you're an older man, and what's more, you make your money by having opinions. you have those opinions and people yell at you. so no wonder you're incensed and you're wound up by cancel culture. that's the product.
so where i agree with you is that i think much of what we call identity politics today focuses on the most economically and politically privileged people who may also be black, brown, trans, female, whatever. and focuses on their experience and doesn't focus on the experience of people who are also economically ab. i agree with you there. but if we're going to talk about cancel culture a very simple rule of thumb which i get from marx, and i always try and apply whatever i'm doing is i always remember to myself, conditions shape consciousness. so let's think about your conditions. you're a man, you're an older man, and what's more, you make your money by having opinions. you have those opinions and people yell at you. so no wonder you're incensed and you're wound up by cancel culture. that's the product.
Slavoj Žižek
no, wait a minute. i... first, you know, cancel culture is now changing because there is, in germany at least. and i hope you will. disagree with it. a new form of cancel culture when if you just say palestinians are also suffering, you are anti-semitic. and this is also this work.
no, wait a minute. i... first, you know, cancel culture is now changing because there is, in germany at least. and i hope you will. disagree with it. a new form of cancel culture when if you just say palestinians are also suffering, you are anti-semitic. and this is also this work.
Ash Sarkar
reduce reduce it to call it cancel culture because then what you do is you create an equivalence between a project which is from the state, from the media from organized lobby groups and you equate that to someone on twitter. calling you a tw. there's a problem here of equivalence.
reduce reduce it to call it cancel culture because then what you do is you create an equivalence between a project which is from the state, from the media from organized lobby groups and you equate that to someone on twitter. calling you a tw. there's a problem here of equivalence.
Slavoj Žižek
yes, but when you describe me, the way you described me, nonetheless, i think i can defend myself in this way. people don't notice it. let me make a couple of references to my public status here in the united states. you with your, i was five years old at that age. you probably don't remember it, but some of you do you remember times 20 years ago? when i was regularly publishing columns in new york times even. and here in the guardian. then it began ten years or so ago now. the only guys, i don't know how it came to this, that occasionally publish me, mostly mostly just on the web, not in printed text, are the new statements and sometimes spectator but and it goes to both polls. guardian i'm prohibited, let's be open. new left review london review of books, i am out. so i did pay quite a considerable. price, i practically... disappeared from public space that's why i desperately had to do all those horrible things substack and other
yes, but when you describe me, the way you described me, nonetheless, i think i can defend myself in this way. people don't notice it. let me make a couple of references to my public status here in the united states. you with your, i was five years old at that age. you probably don't remember it, but some of you do you remember times 20 years ago? when i was regularly publishing columns in new york times even. and here in the guardian. then it began ten years or so ago now. the only guys, i don't know how it came to this, that occasionally publish me, mostly mostly just on the web, not in printed text, are the new statements and sometimes spectator but and it goes to both polls. guardian i'm prohibited, let's be open. new left review london review of books, i am out. so i did pay quite a considerable. price, i practically... disappeared from public space that's why i desperately had to do all those horrible things substack and other
Ash Sarkar
i also have a book published by bloomsbury. that you're selling now. no, no, books. if that's disappearing from the public sphere, then a lot of people would say it's pretty good.
i also have a book published by bloomsbury. that you're selling now. no, no, books. if that's disappearing from the public sphere, then a lot of people would say it's pretty good.
Slavoj Žižek
okay, but what i'm saying is that of course, this you still have a certain amount of freedom here because you know, what is a book? to be brutal, if it will sell more than 3,000, it will be a success. it. this is how our societies work, you know, it's not open censorship. it's that in a subtle way. you are... you are cancelled. but again, my point with cancel culture is that i like more direct rules. what i don't like in cancel culture is first how you do something and you are never sure will you be. c and not. the second thing, the most basic one, i say this to annoy you. you will not agree with me.
okay, but what i'm saying is that of course, this you still have a certain amount of freedom here because you know, what is a book? to be brutal, if it will sell more than 3,000, it will be a success. it. this is how our societies work, you know, it's not open censorship. it's that in a subtle way. you are... you are cancelled. but again, my point with cancel culture is that i like more direct rules. what i don't like in cancel culture is first how you do something and you are never sure will you be. c and not. the second thing, the most basic one, i say this to annoy you. you will not agree with me.
Ash Sarkar
i've really got to go to the q&a. you can't annoy me too much.
i've really got to go to the q&a. you can't annoy me too much.
Slavoj Žižek
sorry?
sorry?
Ash Sarkar
i've got to open it out so these lovely people can ask questions..
i've got to open it out so these lovely people can ask questions..
Slavoj Žižek
don't you disappoint me. i will suspect that in spite of your hu staff, you are really deep in yourself a filthy liberal that you... believe inuk. we here, i'm a stalinist, we know better than people what people really want. so let's go on and you know all right.
don't you disappoint me. i will suspect that in spite of your hu staff, you are really deep in yourself a filthy liberal that you... believe inuk. we here, i'm a stalinist, we know better than people what people really want. so let's go on and you know all right.
Ash Sarkar
one show of hands who really wants a q&a?
one show of hands who really wants a q&a?
Slavoj Žižek
no, but kiri.
no, but kiri.
Ash Sarkar
who wants this to keep going? one? no. there we go.
who wants this to keep going? one? no. there we go.
Slavoj Žižek
one sentence, just, you know what's my problem with cancer culture? the official line is they fight for diversity and inclusion. but what they effectively do is mostly excluding everybody that they perceive as too diverse from the doctrinesha. now i am totally against. prohibiting racism and so on and so on. but i would blush. eh like... draw on another thing, what i so often find lacking in tensil culture is that the more they appear fanatical and so on, the more it's not clear, except for some abstract justice and so on, where is their program? what are they fighting for? i'm even more for Houthis than for them.
one sentence, just, you know what's my problem with cancer culture? the official line is they fight for diversity and inclusion. but what they effectively do is mostly excluding everybody that they perceive as too diverse from the doctrinesha. now i am totally against. prohibiting racism and so on and so on. but i would blush. eh like... draw on another thing, what i so often find lacking in tensil culture is that the more they appear fanatical and so on, the more it's not clear, except for some abstract justice and so on, where is their program? what are they fighting for? i'm even more for Houthis than for them.
Ash Sarkar
see this is where i think you're the filthy liberal.
see this is where i think you're the filthy liberal.
Slavoj Žižek
oh my god, that's... the end, i will pay some agents when you leave home today. the will ask tomorrow who has seen you last alive. please. no, no, please tell me.
oh my god, that's... the end, i will pay some agents when you leave home today. the will ask tomorrow who has seen you last alive. please. no, no, please tell me.
Ash Sarkar
that's why you're the filthy liberal, because i'd go further than you. right? what does marx say about the political project in front of us. it is to create a movement of the majority. for the majority. that's the project of communism. right that's the project of working class action.
that's why you're the filthy liberal, because i'd go further than you. right? what does marx say about the political project in front of us. it is to create a movement of the majority. for the majority. that's the project of communism. right that's the project of working class action.
Slavoj Žižek
we come to a real difference.
we come to a real difference.
Ash Sarkar
right.
right.
Slavoj Žižek
but we
but we
Ash Sarkar
so
so
Slavoj Žižek
yes,, yes. sorry.
yes,, yes. sorry.
Ash Sarkar
if it's a movement of the majority for the majority, by definition that's going to include racists, transphobes, homophobes, sexists. and if i turn my back on those people, all i have left is a particularly disempowered form of elite politics. where're all i can do. it's not self-select.
if it's a movement of the majority for the majority, by definition that's going to include racists, transphobes, homophobes, sexists. and if i turn my back on those people, all i have left is a particularly disempowered form of elite politics. where're all i can do. it's not self-select.
Slavoj Žižek
i see this as a critique of cancel culture.
i see this as a critique of cancel culture.
Ash Sarkar
it is. i have a critique of cancel culture, but i also have a critique of people who occupy. high social status jobs. who are paid for those high social status jobs pretty well.
it is. i have a critique of cancel culture, but i also have a critique of people who occupy. high social status jobs. who are paid for those high social status jobs pretty well.
Slavoj Žižek
i'm not not.
i'm not not.
Ash Sarkar
identify
identify
Slavoj Žižek
can i
can i
Ash Sarkar
you identify themselves as victims when their readership doesn't like what they're saying. that's my problem.
you identify themselves as victims when their readership doesn't like what they're saying. that's my problem.
Slavoj Žižek
i a victim and let me tell you a paradox which i repeat all the time. it's much more paradoxical. you know what's the key to my success, relative? not, oh, i'm a brave guy and bright guy and i survived the oppression. the right oppression at the right point. when i finished my postgraduate studies in seventy73. this was then the last indian summer of hardline communism. and although i already filled out the forms, all of a sudden i was excluded as not being marxist enough. then i was for six, seven years unemployed. and then i was given an extremely marginal job. yugoslavia is in many soft communist countries. those who were considered intelligent but too dangerous to be allowed to teach at the university. they were given marginal research jobs. that's it. because it was in some sense a pure sinecure, but the result of oppression. because i wasn't allowed to teach and i got all the freedom, pure researcher i was. yugoslavia was open at that level. i traveled abroad. so again, that's my paradox. without the last big wave of communist oppression, you know what i would have been? stupid. a stupid professor in a shit hole of a city called ljubljana there in slovenia. so literally this was the key, this was my luck. you know. that. it was oppression, but not too harsh, an oppression, and an oppression which just opened up the space for me to establish connections abroad. i did then my doctor of thesis in paris. i become friendly, although later we split with ernesto laclau and so on. and okay, this is private boasting. you will not say anything, but... you know that i... he. this is very dangerous, what i will say there, because it can also be this, the worst patronizing attitude of the upper class people. but a general rule, i hate these pretentious mid-level theorists who speak their jargon and so on. i immediately establish friendship with whatever i. whatever i meet of thee. ordinary people, those who work in the stores, taxi drivers in slovenia and so on and so on. so i... my idea is... nope. not even to be rich. my idea is, you know what? now you will laugh. if you ask me my ideal way of life. goodak with the human face. that is to say, what i take from gulak is your life is organized, they awaken you, now you boss, now this. and then... you read and write, do what you want. i'm not interested in other things. you know. but okay, let's play democracy now if you want.
i a victim and let me tell you a paradox which i repeat all the time. it's much more paradoxical. you know what's the key to my success, relative? not, oh, i'm a brave guy and bright guy and i survived the oppression. the right oppression at the right point. when i finished my postgraduate studies in seventy73. this was then the last indian summer of hardline communism. and although i already filled out the forms, all of a sudden i was excluded as not being marxist enough. then i was for six, seven years unemployed. and then i was given an extremely marginal job. yugoslavia is in many soft communist countries. those who were considered intelligent but too dangerous to be allowed to teach at the university. they were given marginal research jobs. that's it. because it was in some sense a pure sinecure, but the result of oppression. because i wasn't allowed to teach and i got all the freedom, pure researcher i was. yugoslavia was open at that level. i traveled abroad. so again, that's my paradox. without the last big wave of communist oppression, you know what i would have been? stupid. a stupid professor in a shit hole of a city called ljubljana there in slovenia. so literally this was the key, this was my luck. you know. that. it was oppression, but not too harsh, an oppression, and an oppression which just opened up the space for me to establish connections abroad. i did then my doctor of thesis in paris. i become friendly, although later we split with ernesto laclau and so on. and okay, this is private boasting. you will not say anything, but... you know that i... he. this is very dangerous, what i will say there, because it can also be this, the worst patronizing attitude of the upper class people. but a general rule, i hate these pretentious mid-level theorists who speak their jargon and so on. i immediately establish friendship with whatever i. whatever i meet of thee. ordinary people, those who work in the stores, taxi drivers in slovenia and so on and so on. so i... my idea is... nope. not even to be rich. my idea is, you know what? now you will laugh. if you ask me my ideal way of life. goodak with the human face. that is to say, what i take from gulak is your life is organized, they awaken you, now you boss, now this. and then... you read and write, do what you want. i'm not interested in other things. you know. but okay, let's play democracy now if you want.
Ash Sarkar
i don the thing is that we've only got three minutes left.
i don the thing is that we've only got three minutes left.
Slavoj Žižek
what?
what?
Ash Sarkar
thing.
thing.
Slavoj Žižek
what really? what that so long?
what really? what that so long?
Ash Sarkar
yeah.
yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
no, you are not a good, you didn't. now i will stop. now i will be really evil. are you not civilized enough to know what does it mean a rhetorical question? when i said, was i too long? i expected you to say, no, but it was wonderful and so on. and you simply said, yes, you were. my god, where is the united kingdom going?
no, you are not a good, you didn't. now i will stop. now i will be really evil. are you not civilized enough to know what does it mean a rhetorical question? when i said, was i too long? i expected you to say, no, but it was wonderful and so on. and you simply said, yes, you were. my god, where is the united kingdom going?
Ash Sarkar
as a journalist, i have an absolute duty to the truth, i'm sorry.
as a journalist, i have an absolute duty to the truth, i'm sorry.
Slavoj Žižek
sorry?
sorry?
Ash Sarkar
as a journalist, i have an absolute duty to tell the truth.
as a journalist, i have an absolute duty to tell the truth.
Slavoj Žižek
are you really a good journalist? that a joke. you know how i define a good journalist? let's say we do an interview and you then transcribe it and publish it. a real, every idiotic, average journalist is able, of course, to transcribe it and render what i wanted to say. a really good journalist. uses not only my words, but manipulates them in such a way that it makes me say the exact opposite of what i wanted to say. can you do this?
are you really a good journalist? that a joke. you know how i define a good journalist? let's say we do an interview and you then transcribe it and publish it. a real, every idiotic, average journalist is able, of course, to transcribe it and render what i wanted to say. a really good journalist. uses not only my words, but manipulates them in such a way that it makes me say the exact opposite of what i wanted to say. can you do this?
Ash Sarkar
i think you do a really good job of saying the opposite thing to what you mean by yourself.
i think you do a really good job of saying the opposite thing to what you mean by yourself.
Slavoj Žižek
you don't need my help. you know, i have an idea that when we men are evil, we are evil in rather primitive, brutal way, but that women like you you have a way to be evil, which is nice, you smile, but it hits much more, you know. so in this sense, i'm a feminist. we need more women than you. thank.
you don't need my help. you know, i have an idea that when we men are evil, we are evil in rather primitive, brutal way, but that women like you you have a way to be evil, which is nice, you smile, but it hits much more, you know. so in this sense, i'm a feminist. we need more women than you. thank.
Ash Sarkar
so we do actually have one last surprise for you.
so we do actually have one last surprise for you.
Slavoj Žižek
not birthday, not birthday. i will kill you! i will kill your mother.
not birthday, not birthday. i will kill you! i will kill your mother.
Ash Sarkar
i'll give you her address when this is over so you can send the friendly bullet her way, but... please. i.
i'll give you her address when this is over so you can send the friendly bullet her way, but... please. i.
Event Staff
thank.
thank.
Slavoj Žižek
i believe this would work the way it should, that two candles means that i'm two years old, no. should i blow it?
i believe this would work the way it should, that two candles means that i'm two years old, no. should i blow it?
Event Staff
thank'm sorry. we'll just watch it.
thank'm sorry. we'll just watch it.
Slavoj Žižek
why two candles or whatever?
why two candles or whatever?
Event Staff
i wasn't sure that they were both going to work.
i wasn't sure that they were both going to work.
Slavoj Žižek
ah, that's... yes, yes, yes, yeah. oh my god. but you know what the message of birthday for me is? 75 like earth. what i should do when i return in two days to ljubljana is... look for the price, where are the cheapest, the best grapes and so on, you know. i'm already at that level, you know. but i hope you will agree with me in something else. i'm not afraid of... death i'm afraid of a pain. no, no, no, no. i'm not pathetic. i am afraid of painful process of dying.
ah, that's... yes, yes, yes, yeah. oh my god. but you know what the message of birthday for me is? 75 like earth. what i should do when i return in two days to ljubljana is... look for the price, where are the cheapest, the best grapes and so on, you know. i'm already at that level, you know. but i hope you will agree with me in something else. i'm not afraid of... death i'm afraid of a pain. no, no, no, no. i'm not pathetic. i am afraid of painful process of dying.
Ash Sarkar
yeah.
yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
for example, i spoke once openly with my sons. and they tried to blackmail me with this stupidity. you know, how would you react if one of us... d and i told them the truth. i would immediately ask. how did you die? not you, but others, no? i say, if it's an instant death, i would say, okay, seth, let's go on to a movie or whatever. if i would have learned that they slowly suffered and so on. i'm not sure i would survive. you know. ifor for me,... the ideal death would have been, but it doesn't work, that i would have a doctor, medical friend. who would judgeudge when i'm getting too old, senile and silently poison me in a painless way? and he will not tell me when. it wouldn't work because i would know who this doctor is and i will always look at him with anxiety. but wouldn't you like to die like that?
for example, i spoke once openly with my sons. and they tried to blackmail me with this stupidity. you know, how would you react if one of us... d and i told them the truth. i would immediately ask. how did you die? not you, but others, no? i say, if it's an instant death, i would say, okay, seth, let's go on to a movie or whatever. if i would have learned that they slowly suffered and so on. i'm not sure i would survive. you know. ifor for me,... the ideal death would have been, but it doesn't work, that i would have a doctor, medical friend. who would judgeudge when i'm getting too old, senile and silently poison me in a painless way? and he will not tell me when. it wouldn't work because i would know who this doctor is and i will always look at him with anxiety. but wouldn't you like to die like that?
Ash Sarkar
i might dream of death. is that i will be surrounded by my loved ones gliding away on a cloud of oxycodone and propofol.
i might dream of death. is that i will be surrounded by my loved ones gliding away on a cloud of oxycodone and propofol.
Slavoj Žižek
i see your point, but you will know that you are dying.
i see your point, but you will know that you are dying.
Ash Sarkar
well, i think with all the oxyodone, i won't mind.
well, i think with all the oxyodone, i won't mind.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, no, no, no. you know who died very happily like that. let's conclude this if we are here among theorists. i don't appreciate too much but hannah arendt. i spoke with the guy who was there at her side. it was a reception at her apartment. they were talking. she was a little bit tired on her fauteuil. he said, okay. she said, i will just take a short nap in five minutes, three. what? awaken, debated a little bit, again, a short nap and then the fifth time it was a short nap and she didn't awaken.
yeah, no, no, no. you know who died very happily like that. let's conclude this if we are here among theorists. i don't appreciate too much but hannah arendt. i spoke with the guy who was there at her side. it was a reception at her apartment. they were talking. she was a little bit tired on her fauteuil. he said, okay. she said, i will just take a short nap in five minutes, three. what? awaken, debated a little bit, again, a short nap and then the fifth time it was a short nap and she didn't awaken.
Ash Sarkar
and then it was a longer nap. yeah.
and then it was a longer nap. yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
forever. yeah. but she just she wasn't aware. nobody, isn't this as close as you can get?
forever. yeah. but she just she wasn't aware. nobody, isn't this as close as you can get?
Ash Sarkar
on that note of a very long nap. thank you all so much for coming.
on that note of a very long nap. thank you all so much for coming.
Slavoj Žižek
show no democracy. no democracy.
show no democracy. no democracy.
Ash Sarkar
the
the
Slavoj Žižek
thank you.
thank you.
Event Staff
thing.
thing.
Slavoj Žižek
good.
good.
Event Staff
is?
is?