Slavoj Zizek, Nadya Tolokonnikova and Paul Holdengraber / Los Angeles, 28 October 2025
Talk · Pussy Riot ·
2025-10-28 · 1:42:20 · 12,323 words
with Chris Simmons, Paul Holdengräber, Nadya Tolokonnikova
ideologypsychoanalysishegel-dialecticsreligion-theologysexuality-genderfascism-populismrevolution-violencetechnology-ai-cyberspacecinema-art-culturegeopolitics-warphilosophy-generalsubjectivityethicshistory
A wide-ranging conversation with Paul Holdengräber and Nadya Tolokonnikova covering retroactivity in history (Zhou Enlai on the French Revolution), Protestantism's theological radicalism, trans sexuality and the Cartesian subject, psychoanalysis against self-knowledge, Trump's authoritarian threat and the role of the army/secret police, identity politics, AI and finitude, and the need for a new revolutionary politics. Žižek argues for alienation over introspection, defends a binary-plus model of sexual subjectivity, praises the military as a potential check on Trump, and calls for 'war communism' preparedness in the face of ecological and technological catastrophe.
every located moment in this recording, click one to read it
The ideas in it 26
in the order they first come up; click a row for what he does with the idea here
The idea that the meaning of a historical event is determined only retroactively by what follows it, as illustrated by Zhou Enlai's comment on the French Revolution.
as “happy fall (felix culpa)”
The theological notion that the Fall is not a disaster but a necessary condition for the emergence of freedom and self-awareness, which Žižek uses to argue good does not pre-exist the fall but is its retroactive product.
Gramsci's concept of strategic cultural-political leadership, which Žižek notes the new populist right has successfully appropriated from the left via Trump.
René Girard's theory of desire as imitative and competitive, which Žižek notes has been adopted by figures like Peter Thiel and the new populist right in a way inscribed as a possibility within Girard himself.
The idea that sexual enjoyment always requires an external fantasy frame, you are never alone with your partner, as illustrated by the porn actor needing to watch porn on his iPhone.
Freud's notion that sexuality is never simply biological but always involves primitive infantile theories and fantasies that persist as the hidden support of adult sex.
as “the plus”
Žižek's reading of the '+' in LGBT+ as marking the subject's true identity as an excess that precedes every concrete sexual identity, making every identity an escape from this void.
Žižek's claim that Descartes' cogito, a sexless, empty, self-constituting subject, is the greatest trans theorist, since the cogito has no pre-given sexual identity.
Helene Deutsch's thesis (following Freud) that femininity is a performative mask, which Žižek reads as a Cartesian insight that does not diminish women but reveals men as idiots who think they are something identical.
The zero-level critique of ideology: the hysterical question 'why am I what you say I am?' that doubts the identity conferred by the system.
The ideological mechanism by which the big Other confers a subject-position on the individual (worker, woman, mother), which hysteria resists by asking 'why am I that name?'
as “perverted permissiveness”
Žižek's characterization of contemporary ideology's strategy: the system doesn't repress but permits and even encourages enjoyment, which functions as a deeper form of control.
Not just Marxist alienation but the psychoanalytic principle that truth about oneself is found outside, in the Other, which is the first step of Lacanian analysis.
as “canned laughter”
Žižek's example of the externalization of innermost experience: the TV laugh track that laughs for you, which he calls the greatest American cultural contribution of the 20th century.
as “separation”
The second Lacanian step after alienation: discovering that the Other itself is incomplete, ignorant, and lacking, which Žižek connects to Hegel's reading of Christianity.
as “true atheism”
The formula discovered at the point of Christ's cry on the cross: the distance separating you from God is internal to God himself, meaning you will find no ultimate support in God.
as “negative vs. infinite judgment”
Kant's distinction between negating a predicate ('you are not dead' = you are alive) and affirming a non-predicate ('you are undead'), which Žižek uses to define the death drive and the horror genre.
as “undead”
The mode of subjectivity captured by the infinite judgment 'you are undead', not alive, not dead, trapped in a deadness from which even death offers no escape, which is the domain of the death drive.
Freud's name for a dimension of subjectivity characterized by immortality or 'undeadness', the inability to simply die, which Žižek links to Kant's infinite judgment and the horror genre.
Žižek's term for a pragmatic stance that remains strategically opposed to institutions like the army while tactically acknowledging they may serve as a check against authoritarian takeover.
Žižek's self-description as a multiculturalist who keeps distance from cultures rather than pretending to understand them all, opposing the ordinary multiculturalist imperative to know and embrace every culture.
as “logic of discretion”
Sloterdijk's idea, endorsed by Žižek, that in a globalized world we need a new ethics of distance, not trying to understand every culture but maintaining a productive gap.
A daily micro-practice (like avoiding stepping on the same color stone) that creates meaning without having meaning, which Žižek posits as a distinctly human form of thinking that AI cannot authentically replicate.
as “swearing as language at its most elementary”
Lacan's insight that swearing reveals we are never fully at home in language, it is language used against its own communicative function, which Žižek sees as a marker of genuine thought that AI cannot achieve.
as “unfreedom which experiences itself as freedom”
The most dangerous form of unfreedom: the subject feels maximally free (choosing content, pursuing pleasure) while being totally controlled and manipulated by the system.
Žižek's redefinition of communism as an emergency mode of governance necessitated by catastrophe (ecological, military, AI), exemplified by the extraordinary measures taken during Covid.
Stories he reaches for 5
Žižek notes that Bernie Sanders 'stole the show' at Biden's inauguration just by sitting there with his gloves, while Trump's shooting photo never became legendary, meaning millions sensed the inauguration was a fake return to normalcy.
“democratic inauguration of biden was a fake. they didn't really confront the danger of trump”
When asked in 1953 what he thought about the French Revolution, Chinese Premier Zhou Enlai replied 'It's too early to tell', which Žižek uses to illustrate retroactive historical judgment: after 1989 the French Revolution looked like a mistake, but now it is rehabilitated.
“it's too early to tell”
Žižek uses Kant's distinction: 'you are not dead' (negative judgment, meaning you are alive) vs. 'you are undead' (infinite judgment, affirming a non-predicate) to map the territory of the death drive and horror genre.
“you are undead. we are here in horror territory, living dead and so on”
Someone who knew Hannah Arendt personally described how she died: receiving guests in her apartment, debating, falling asleep, waking and debating more, then falling asleep a third time and not waking, Žižek says he would sell his mother into slavery to die like that.
“i would sell my mother into slavery to die like this”
Žižek recalls two infantile sexual theories from his youth: (1) you make love in front of a window and if you do it well, a stork watching will bring you a child as a reward; (2) pregnancy requires constant daily work, 'today let's do the ears, tomorrow the eyes.'
“you make love in front of a window and stork is observing you. and if you're doing well, the stork will bring you as a reward. another child”
Works invoked 11
Casablanca film
Directed by Michael Curtiz (Mihály Kertész), cited as an example of how European immigrant directors provided the best insight into American culture.
The X-Files tv
Referenced for the tagline 'The truth is out there' to illustrate the psychoanalytic principle that truth is found outside, in alienation.
The Life of Brian film
Monty Python film used as Žižek's closing set-piece: the 'What did the Romans ever do for us?' scene applied to the audience, 'What did you give us here? Nothing.'
Quantum History book
Žižek's latest book, mentioned in the introduction and discussed in connection with quantum physics and retroactivity.
Guernica artwork
Picasso's painting used to illustrate that art distorts reality to bring out its essence more directly than literal reproduction.
Too Late to Awaken book
Žižek's book from which the opening passages about waking up and Zhou Enlai are quoted by Holdengräber.
Adam Phillips's book quoted by Holdengräber to argue psychoanalysis should abandon self-knowledge in favor of happiness and inspiration.
Police State (installation) artwork
Tolokonnikova's installation about surviving authoritarianism, being brought to Chicago as Trump deploys troops.
Punk Prayer other
Tolokonnikova's 2012 Pussy Riot performance, named by the Guardian among the most important artworks of the 21st century.
Romans 13:11 other
Biblical passage quoted by Holdengräber: 'Already it is high time for us to awake out of our sleep.'
Referenced as the territory of the 'undead', the infinite judgment that defines the death drive and the domain of subjectivity.
People invoked 61
Alexei Navalny positive
Tolokonnikova discusses his death and the collapse of the Russian opposition; his promise of 'a beautiful Russia of the future' was never made concrete but people believed it.
Tolokonnikova's former husband who operates drones for the Russian military; Žižek jokes about the causal direction of the divorce.
His plan was more like Deng Xiaoping's Chinese model: privatization with authoritarian control.
Zhou Enlai positive
Cited for the apocryphal 'too early to tell' comment on the French Revolution, used to illustrate retroactive historical judgment.
Helene Deutsch positive
Cited for the thesis that femininity is a masquerade, which Žižek reads as a Cartesian insight.
Radovan Karadžić negative
Cited as an example of the link between poetry and dictatorship: a well-known poet who became president of Republika Srpska and war criminal.
Itamar Ben-Gvir negative
Mentioned for visiting Barghouti in prison, where Barghouti appeared tortured and half-dead.
René Girard positive
Žižek notes Girard's influence on Peter Thiel and the populist right, arguing their misreading is paradoxically inscribed within Girard himself; calls him an extraordinary thinker.
Vladimir Mayakovsky positive
Tolokonnikova's first love as a teenager; Žižek also loved him and had his collected works even though he barely read Russian.
Mentioned as repeating the theory that America is already at war with its own big corporations, homeless people, and immigrants.
Ezra Pound negative
Mentioned as an example of poets who were half-fascist.
Referenced as the model for Chinese-style authoritarian modernization with privatization.
Jacques Lacan positive
Alienation followed by separation; swearing as language at its most elementary; the Other is itself incomplete and ignorant.
Francis Fukuyama negative
The 1990s Fukuyamaist end-of-history thesis would retroactively make the French Revolution a false exit; Žižek argues it is now rehabilitated.
Mentioned in the Picasso anecdote: she complained the portrait didn't look like her, and Picasso said 'one day it will.'
Curtis Yarvin positive
Žižek enjoys reading Yarvin; disagrees with his final result but praises his description of the American system as oligarchy and his comparison with Stalinist oligarchy as one of the best.
Judith Butler positive
Žižek mentions a debate where they agreed that performatively constructed subjectivity works only at its purest in modern Cartesian subjectivity.
Donald Trump negative
Central target throughout: his Quantico speech, hegemonic strategy, oligarchic politics, and threat to constitutional order are extensively discussed.
Nadya Tolokonnikova positive
Žižek tells her 'I hate you' as the highest praise because she surprises him and threatens his position; they co-authored a book and share political concerns about authoritarianism.
Mentioned as having been KGB; Žižek notes Andropov's plan was more like the Chinese model, privatization under authoritarian control.
Oscar Wilde positive
Quoted by Holdengräber: 'if a man uses a spade, he should use it on himself', about the danger of representing things exactly as they are.
Alain Badiou positive
Mentioned as a friend Žižek admires and therefore 'hates' in his paradoxical sense.
Andrei Platonov positive
Žižek's 'absolute unconditional love' in 20th-century Russian literature; Tolokonnikova's tepid response disappoints him.
Elon Musk negative
Mentioned by Tolokonnikova as being 'in bed' with Trump and owning dangerous AI/drone technology.
Marshall Sahlins positive
Quoted by Holdengräber: 'A people who conceive of life to be the pursuit of happiness must be chronically unhappy.'
Bernie Sanders positive
Žižek loves Sanders; notes he 'stole the show' at Biden's inauguration by just sitting there, giving hope about the American people.
Marwan Barghouti positive
Palestinian figure proposed by Ayalon as a partner for political autonomy; Žižek notes he appeared half-dead in prison after Ben-Gvir's visit.
Vladimir Nabokov positive
Quoted by Holdengräber for his tiny book on Gogol and the line about parallel lines having other things to do.
Henrik Ibsen positive
Quoted by Holdengräber: 'It is the mark of the spirit of rebellion to crave for happiness in this life.'
T. S. Eliot negative
Mentioned as an example of poets who were half-fascist, illustrating Žižek's distrust of poetry.
Richard Feynman positive
Quoted: the ABC of quantum theory is that nobody understands it, meaning quantum physics implies a vision of reality that cannot be integrated into our ontological worldview.
Yanis Varoufakis negative
Žižek calls him a good friend but disagrees with the belief that telling the truth long enough will awaken the masses.
Nikolai Gogol positive
Žižek's preferred Russian writer (third line after Tolstoy and Dostoevsky); Tolokonnikova corrects him that Gogol is Ukrainian.
Benjamin Netanyahu negative
Criticized for his Gaza policies; Žižek notes Shin Bet agents protested against him.
Peter Sloterdijk positive
Conservative but appreciated; Žižek endorses his idea that we need a new 'logic of discretion of distance' in a globalized world.
Pope Francis negative
Žižek was deeply disappointed by Francis's proposal to change 'lead us not into temptation' to 'protect us from temptation,' arguing this misses the Protestant insight that God actively tempts.
Adam Phillips negative
Žižek agrees that psychoanalysis should abandon self-knowledge but disagrees with the emphasis on happiness; prefers the death drive and struggle over happiness.
Ami Ayalon positive
Ex-boss of Shin Bet who proposed genuine Palestinian political autonomy and suggested Marwan Barghouti as a partner.
Mentioned by Tolokonnikova as someone who is joyous and wants to meet Žižek; advises finding a stupid guilty-pleasure TV show to feel better.
Michael Curtiz positive
Hungarian-born director (Mihály Kertész) cited as an example of how the best insights into American culture come from European immigrants.
Ernst Lubitsch positive
Cited as one of Žižek's 'absolute stars' among European immigrant directors in Hollywood.
Mentioned as one of the female followers of Descartes who appreciated the cogito's sexlessness for their transposition.
Pablo Picasso positive
Cited for the Guernica story with the German officer and the Gertrude Stein portrait, illustrating that art distorts to reveal essence.
Hannah Arendt negative
Žižek disagrees with her view that the American Revolution was the proper way and the French Revolution a mistake; also cites her death as an ideal way to die.
Joe Biden negative
His inauguration was a 'fake' return to normalcy that didn't really confront the danger of Trump.
Peter Thiel negative
Criticized as a figure who studied Girard and applies his theory in service of the populist right.
Pete Hegseth negative
Mentioned as the 'Hungarian-sounding guy'; Žižek almost likes his idea that soldiers shouldn't be fat but finds his overall politics ridiculous.
Leo Tolstoy positive
Žižek prefers Tolstoy to Dostoevsky, noting Tolstoy is not as stupid as he may appear.
Barack Obama negative
'Yes we can' became 'yes we can stand for the documents'; Obama promised change but betrayed it.
Meister Eckhart positive
Cited as part of the Rhine mysticism tradition (Eckhart to Böhme) that brings out the evil dimension in God himself.
Jakob Böhme positive
Cited as part of the Rhine mysticism tradition that acknowledges an explosion of evil in God himself.
Vladimir Putin negative
Described as a brutal modernizer in the line of Peter the Great and Stalin, not a defender of archaic tradition; his speeches attacking Ukraine as a Bolshevik formation are criticized.
Nelson Mandela positive
Cited as an example of a charismatic leader who gave people hope and meant change is possible, even though he ultimately failed.
Antonio Gramsci positive
Žižek notes Gramsci's notion of hegemony is the most popular theorist among the new populist right, and that Trump's success is a Gramscian victory in hegemony.
Noam Chomsky negative
Chomsky called Žižek a charlatan; Žižek disagrees with Chomsky's optimism as a strategy, arguing radical acts don't follow from believing the future can be better.
René Descartes positive
Called the greatest trans theorist because the cogito is a sexless, empty, self-constituting subject; Žižek notes female followers of Descartes appreciated the cogito's sexlessness.
Sigmund Freud positive
Central reference throughout: Freud's deepest message is not pansexualism but that sex always involves infantile fantasy support; the unconscious is repressed in trans ideology.
Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel positive
Hegel's reading of Christianity: the separation between God and humans is overcome by discovering the distance is internal to God himself.
Immanuel Kant positive
The distinction between negative and infinite judgment ('you are not dead' vs. 'you are undead') is used to define the death drive and the domain of subjectivity.
Mentioned by Holdengräber in connection with Adam Phillips's rejection of the Socratic 'know yourself' ideal.
Žižek prefers Tolstoy to Dostoevsky.
What it argues
retroactivity and historical judgmentProtestantism as the truth of Christianitytrans sexuality and the Cartesian cogitopsychoanalysis as alienation not self-knowledgeTrump authoritarianism and the military as checkidentity politics vs. class politicsAI, finitude, and the limits of machine thinkingwar communism and catastrophe as political opportunity
Dialectical moves 12
“The Fall is not a fall from a pre-existing good but the very condition through which good first emerges retroactively.”
Good does not pre-exist the fall; it is produced by the fall as its retroactive effect, the fall is 'happy' because it creates the space for freedom.
“Christ is born not to redeem us but to redeem God himself.”
The inversion of standard theology: God is not the answer to human suffering but is himself the problem that needs redemption through Christ.
“The distance that separates you from God is internal to God himself.”
Christianity overcomes the God-human separation not by humans ascending to God but by discovering that God himself is split, the formula of true atheism.
“The most conservative thing today is simple promiscuity.”
What counts as transgressive or conservative is reversed: in a permissive society, promiscuity is the conformist norm and faithfulness is the true transgression.
“The most dangerous unfreedom is unfreedom which experiences itself as freedom.”
True ideological control does not feel like repression but like maximal freedom, the subject feels free while being totally manipulated.
“Machines will be too bright to think.”
Genuine human thinking arises from limitation and finitude, not from infinite intelligence, AI's very perfection prevents it from thinking in a human way.
“To bring out the essence you have to distort.”
Art does not represent reality by faithfully copying it but by distorting it to reveal what literal reproduction cannot, the essence of what you are.
“The true revolutionary knows that the revolution will eat him or her also.”
Authentic revolution requires sacrificing not just the old order but the very idea that motivated the revolution, the revolutionary subject is consumed by the process.
“I hate you because you surprise me — which is the highest praise.”
The reversal of compliment into insult: saying 'you are great' is patronizing, while 'I hate you because you threaten my position' is the true mark of admiration.
“The greatest trans theorist was René Descartes.”
The cogito, a subject originally empty and without sex, is the model for trans subjectivity, not the pre-modern mythological space of gendered cosmic principles.
“In authoritarian countries the secret police are the ones who see the truth.”
The reversal: the repressive apparatus, because it has access to uncensored information, becomes the site of truth and potential dissent in a censored public sphere.
“You are not dead (negative judgment) vs. you are undead (infinite judgment).”
Kant's distinction between negating a predicate and affirming a non-predicate maps onto the difference between being alive and being trapped in the undead death drive.
Claims 33
asserts
The French Revolution is retroactively rehabilitated by the failures of the 1990s Fukuyamaist end-of-history thesis, which would otherwise have made it a false exit.retroactivity of historical judgment
asserts
We need a revolution — there is no other imaginable way to confront the ecological crisis, AI, and other global threats.necessity of revolution
asserts
Protestantism is the form in which Christianity comes into its essence, because it acknowledges an evil dimension within God himself.Protestantism vs. Catholicism
asserts
Christ was born not to redeem us but to redeem God — God himself needs redemption from his own evil dimension.theology of redemption
asserts
The Fall is a happy fall: good does not pre-exist the fall but emerges only retroactively through it.theological anthropology
asserts
God put the tree of knowledge in Paradise because he was a sadist who wanted the Fall to happen.theodicy / nature of God
asserts
Trump's success is a Gramscian victory in the struggle for hegemony — he reappropriated leftist discourse about the suffering of ordinary people.populist hegemony
reframes
The new populist right correctly reads Girard; their misreading is paradoxically inscribed as a possibility within Girard himself.Girard and the populist right
rejects
Trans ideology's claim that biological sex doesn't matter and only self-experience matters is wrong because self-experience is always based on something repressed and ambiguous.trans ideology and the unconscious
asserts
The passage from biological sex to gender is a painful process full of repressions and traumatic cuts, not a simple self-identification.sexuality and subjectivity
asserts
The '+' in LGBT+ is not an empirical category but the subject's true identity as an excess that precedes every concrete sexual identity.sexual subjectivity
asserts
Descartes' cogito is the greatest trans theorist because it is a sexless, empty subject that constructs itself performatively.Cartesian subject and trans theory
asserts
Hysteria is the zero-level critique of ideology: the question 'why am I what you say I am?' directed at the big Other.hysteria and ideology
reframes
Psychoanalysis is not about looking deep into yourself but about finding a proper alienation — the truth about you is outside.psychoanalysis and self-knowledge
asserts
The greatest American cultural contribution to the 20th century is canned laughter, because it externalizes even our innermost passive experiences.externalization of inner experience
asserts
Today's psychoanalytic patients are already enlightened and come with their own interpretations, so the classical Freudian model of interpretation no longer works straightforwardly.contemporary psychoanalysis
rejects
The pursuit of happiness is a stupid idea; psychoanalysis brings the death drive, not happiness.happiness and psychoanalysis
asserts
Trump's Quantico speech attempting to politicize the army is terrifying because the army has historically resisted politicization and served as a constitutional check.Trump and the military
reframes
In authoritarian countries the secret police play an ambiguous role: they control you but also see the truth that public censorship hides.secret police in authoritarian regimes
reframes
Putin should be understood as a brutal modernizer in the line of Peter the Great and Stalin, not as a defender of archaic Russian tradition.Putin's modernization
asserts
Europe missed the opportunity to reassert itself as a superpower and develop economic ties with China in response to the Trump-Putin rapprochement.European geopolitics
reframes
Identity politics should be overcome in favor of a politics that says 'I don't want to be what I am' — as illustrated by the Indian untouchables' trade union.identity politics vs. class politics
asserts
AI machines will be too bright to think in a human way, because genuine thinking comes from limitation and finitude, not from infinite intelligence.AI and human thought
asserts
The most dangerous unfreedom is unfreedom which experiences itself as freedom — as when you feel free consuming content while being totally controlled.ideology and freedom
rejects
Only a big catastrophe can move people to radical political action; the belief that telling the truth long enough will awaken the masses is naive.democratic socialism and mass awakening
asserts
Covid was good news because it demonstrated that extraordinary measures against the market are possible without the system collapsing.Covid and market limits
asserts
We should prepare for an emergency 'war communism' state so that right-wing fascists do not take over when the next catastrophe hits.communism and catastrophe
asserts
In authentic revolution the first thing sacrificed is the very idea that motivated it; the true revolutionary knows the revolution will eat them too.revolution and self-sacrifice
asserts
We need a charismatic leader to mobilize people, but leaders succumb to temptation, so perhaps a secret committee should organize an accident for the leader after five or six years.leadership and revolution
reframes
The most conservative thing today is simple promiscuity; faithfulness to a partner is now treated as a pathology.conservatism and sexuality
asserts
Trump is not an idiot; his apparent contingency and confusion is a well-thought-out strategy for individual negotiations.Trump's strategy
asserts
Curtis Yarvin's description of the American system as an oligarchy and his comparison with Stalinist oligarchy is one of the best descriptions available.Yarvin and American oligarchy
asserts
Poetry and dictatorship are linked; most great poets were half-fascist, and dictators always have good poets, which is why Žižek remains a Platonist who distrusts poetry.poetry and politics
Quotes 17
“I don't want to enjoy. I want to work and have another party to enjoy passively for me.”Slavoj Žižek · externalization of inner experience
“The most dangerous unfreedom is unfreedom which experiences itself as freedom.”Slavoj Žižek · ideology and freedom
“Christ is born not to redeem us, but to redeem God.”Slavoj Žižek · theology of redemption
“The distance that separates you from God is internal to God himself. That's the formula of true atheism.”Slavoj Žižek · true atheism
“Machines will be too bright to think.”Slavoj Žižek · AI and finitude
“The most conservative thing today is simple promiscuity.”Slavoj Žižek · conservatism and sexuality
“To bring out the essence, you have to distort.”Slavoj Žižek · art and distortion
“The true revolutionary knows that revolution at the end will eat him or herself also.”Slavoj Žižek · revolution and self-sacrifice
“I hate you because you surprise me again and again, which insights which threaten my position.”Slavoj Žižek · admiration as hatred
“The greatest trans theorist, if you ask me, was René Descartes, with his cogito.”Slavoj Žižek · Cartesian subject and trans theory
“Psychoanalysis is not: look deep into yourself. The lesson is: find a proper alienation. You will find the truth about you outside.”Slavoj Žižek · psychoanalysis and alienation
“I define myself as communist, but in the sense of war communism.”Slavoj Žižek · communism as emergency mode
“Only a big catastrophe can maybe move them.”Slavoj Žižek · catastrophe and political action
“I would sell my mother into slavery to die like this.”Slavoj Žižek · death and finitude
“What did you give here today? Nothing.”Slavoj Žižek · Life of Brian conclusion
“I am a pessimist in works sense. You can fool all the people, sometimes some people all the time.”Slavoj Žižek · pragmatic pessimism
“We should never forget that Gorbachev... was KGB from there.”Slavoj Žižek · reform from within the apparatus
Transcript 317 turns
Chris Simmons
good evening everyone and welcome. my name is chris simmons. i'm with how to academy as their international events programmer and it's so nice to see such a full house. tonight is a particularly meaningful occasion for us as it marks our very first how-to academy event here in los angeles. and there could be no one more fitting to open up our los angeles series than slavojžk, philosopher, cultural critic, and one of the most provocative and entertaining of our time. his work spans philosophy, psychoanalysis, film, and politics, inviting audiences to think differently about ideology, culture, and the forces that shape modern life. he's the author of dozens of books, including his latest, quantum history, a new materialist philosophy. and in conversation with him tonight is paul holdengrber, interviewer and curator of public curiosity. paul is the founding executive director of onassis los angeles and previously founded the iconic live from the new york public library series where he hosted more than 600 conversations with guests like patti smith, werner herzog, jay-z, and helen mren. joining paul and slavoy on stage midway through the conversation, as you can see on the screen behind you, is a very special guest, nadia talonikova. nadia is a conceptual artist and activist. best known as the founder of pussy riot, her 2012 performance punk prayer made global headlines and was later named by the guardian among the most important artworks of the 21st century. before we begin, a quick note. you may have noticed a qr code on the screen as you entered. please scan that code to submit your questions for slavo and paul. the code will reappear again to give you all an opportunity to ask even more questions as you. listen to the conversation. and then after the conversation, slavoy will be signing a limited number of copies of quantum history. please form a line down front here and to your left where our ushers will be able to guide you on where to go. and books are available for purchase through our friends at chevalier's books. and since time may be limited, i encourage you all to pick up a pre-signed copy. so enough from me. please help me in welcoming paul holdengrber and slavoy jk. i love this.
good evening everyone and welcome. my name is chris simmons. i'm with how to academy as their international events programmer and it's so nice to see such a full house. tonight is a particularly meaningful occasion for us as it marks our very first how-to academy event here in los angeles. and there could be no one more fitting to open up our los angeles series than slavojžk, philosopher, cultural critic, and one of the most provocative and entertaining of our time. his work spans philosophy, psychoanalysis, film, and politics, inviting audiences to think differently about ideology, culture, and the forces that shape modern life. he's the author of dozens of books, including his latest, quantum history, a new materialist philosophy. and in conversation with him tonight is paul holdengrber, interviewer and curator of public curiosity. paul is the founding executive director of onassis los angeles and previously founded the iconic live from the new york public library series where he hosted more than 600 conversations with guests like patti smith, werner herzog, jay-z, and helen mren. joining paul and slavoy on stage midway through the conversation, as you can see on the screen behind you, is a very special guest, nadia talonikova. nadia is a conceptual artist and activist. best known as the founder of pussy riot, her 2012 performance punk prayer made global headlines and was later named by the guardian among the most important artworks of the 21st century. before we begin, a quick note. you may have noticed a qr code on the screen as you entered. please scan that code to submit your questions for slavo and paul. the code will reappear again to give you all an opportunity to ask even more questions as you. listen to the conversation. and then after the conversation, slavoy will be signing a limited number of copies of quantum history. please form a line down front here and to your left where our ushers will be able to guide you on where to go. and books are available for purchase through our friends at chevalier's books. and since time may be limited, i encourage you all to pick up a pre-signed copy. so enough from me. please help me in welcoming paul holdengrber and slavoy jk. i love this.
Paul Holdengräber
passage of yours. and in this book called too late. to awaken. it's the beginning. as an obsessional neurotic. i regularly wake up a couple of minutes before my alarm clock. rings. no matter what time i set it for and no matter what zone i'm in. but it would be wrong to read this idiosyncrasy as a sign that i'm fully aware. of the need to wake up. it is more that i do it to avoid the traumatic experience of being woke. why? the apostle paul characterized his own time in a way that seems to fit our present moment perfectly.
passage of yours. and in this book called too late. to awaken. it's the beginning. as an obsessional neurotic. i regularly wake up a couple of minutes before my alarm clock. rings. no matter what time i set it for and no matter what zone i'm in. but it would be wrong to read this idiosyncrasy as a sign that i'm fully aware. of the need to wake up. it is more that i do it to avoid the traumatic experience of being woke. why? the apostle paul characterized his own time in a way that seems to fit our present moment perfectly.
Slavoj Žižek
make.
make.
Paul Holdengräber
no mistake about the age we live in. already it is high time for us to awake out of our sleep. romans 13, 11. however, recent historical experience rather seems to demonstrate the opposite. there is no right moment. to awaken. we either freak out too early and thus appear to spread the empty panic. or we come to our senses when it's already too late. we solace ourselves with the thought that there is still time to act. and then all of a sudden... we realize that there isn't. again. why? and another passage that i love that comes a little bit afterwards, which i love and which i'd love you to comment on. there's a story. almost apocryphal about true and lie, the chinese prime minister. it goes like this. when in 1953 he was in geneva for the peace negotiations to end the korean war. a journalist asked him, what he thought about the french revolution. true replied. it's too early. to tell. uh. you finished?.
no mistake about the age we live in. already it is high time for us to awake out of our sleep. romans 13, 11. however, recent historical experience rather seems to demonstrate the opposite. there is no right moment. to awaken. we either freak out too early and thus appear to spread the empty panic. or we come to our senses when it's already too late. we solace ourselves with the thought that there is still time to act. and then all of a sudden... we realize that there isn't. again. why? and another passage that i love that comes a little bit afterwards, which i love and which i'd love you to comment on. there's a story. almost apocryphal about true and lie, the chinese prime minister. it goes like this. when in 1953 he was in geneva for the peace negotiations to end the korean war. a journalist asked him, what he thought about the french revolution. true replied. it's too early. to tell. uh. you finished?.
Slavoj Žižek
no, no, this, and i don't want to speak too much, we don't have time here about 126, but this is what why i love as the object. i'm not saying i really understand it, but inquiry, quantum physics, the notion of retroactivity there. incidentally, this is just an apocryphal story. i know everything what really happened. but the point is this one that even if we take this story literally, french revolution, what does it mean? he was right. you remember when most of the socialist countries... . became capitalist. it was exactly 200 years after french revolution. 1789. 1989. you mean the fall of the wall and at that point, along the lines of Zhou Enlai, the predominant vision was french revolution was one big mistake. yeah, okay. the idea was french revolution, the well yeah the idea was french revolution was a mistake. this was also Hannah Arendt's opinion. the american revolution was the way to do it properly. i totally disagree with you.
no, no, this, and i don't want to speak too much, we don't have time here about 126, but this is what why i love as the object. i'm not saying i really understand it, but inquiry, quantum physics, the notion of retroactivity there. incidentally, this is just an apocryphal story. i know everything what really happened. but the point is this one that even if we take this story literally, french revolution, what does it mean? he was right. you remember when most of the socialist countries... . became capitalist. it was exactly 200 years after french revolution. 1789. 1989. you mean the fall of the wall and at that point, along the lines of Zhou Enlai, the predominant vision was french revolution was one big mistake. yeah, okay. the idea was french revolution, the well yeah the idea was french revolution was a mistake. this was also Hannah Arendt's opinion. the american revolution was the way to do it properly. i totally disagree with you.
Paul Holdengräber
i would imagine.
i would imagine.
Slavoj Žižek
even now you haven't yet finished it. you have the problem with black slave liberation which goes on. but what i want to say is that imagine that. the 90s fukuyama were the last word. this retroactively would make french revolution simply one false exit, theour, something to be obliterated, forgotten. but now with the rise of new problems, it's rehabilitated.
even now you haven't yet finished it. you have the problem with black slave liberation which goes on. but what i want to say is that imagine that. the 90s fukuyama were the last word. this retroactively would make french revolution simply one false exit, theour, something to be obliterated, forgotten. but now with the rise of new problems, it's rehabilitated.
Paul Holdengräber
. see now i also it's like as i mentioned yesterday, the hegelian idea of the owl of minerva taking its flight at dusk. that retroactively you understand a period.
. see now i also it's like as i mentioned yesterday, the hegelian idea of the owl of minerva taking its flight at dusk. that retroactively you understand a period.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, yeah, it looked. again, in the 90s with fukuyama, that the epoch, this revolutionary epoch, french revolution, then october revolution, that epoch is over. now, obviously, we know it's not over. we, that's my primary intuition today, we need to we don't know what form it will take, but we need a... tremendous well, why not revolution? because there is no other way that i can even imagine for us to confront. ecological crisis, artificial intelligence, the threat of
yeah, yeah, it looked. again, in the 90s with fukuyama, that the epoch, this revolutionary epoch, french revolution, then october revolution, that epoch is over. now, obviously, we know it's not over. we, that's my primary intuition today, we need to we don't know what form it will take, but we need a... tremendous well, why not revolution? because there is no other way that i can even imagine for us to confront. ecological crisis, artificial intelligence, the threat of
Paul Holdengräber
water
water
Slavoj Žižek
and so on and so on.
and so on and so on.
Paul Holdengräber
uh. too early to tell, you know, when i read that in the book.
uh. too early to tell, you know, when i read that in the book.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah.
yeah.
Paul Holdengräber
it reminded me of this wonderful story of picasso.
it reminded me of this wonderful story of picasso.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah.
yeah.
Paul Holdengräber
when gertrud stein um... was painted by picasso. she was quite upset. she said, it doesn't look at all like me. and he said, one day it will.
when gertrud stein um... was painted by picasso. she was quite upset. she said, it doesn't look at all like me. and he said, one day it will.
Slavoj Žižek
i. no, my favorite, you all know it story about picasso... i don't know if it's apocryphal or not, but that doesn't matter., no, no, no.
i. no, my favorite, you all know it story about picasso... i don't know if it's apocryphal or not, but that doesn't matter., no, no, no.
Paul Holdengräber
no.
no.
Slavoj Žižek
in.
in.
Paul Holdengräber
he right.
he right.
Slavoj Žižek
you know, the... idea of art representing objects event. i think it's too easy to dismiss it realistic. for for example, the rumor is, maybe you know it, that during world war ii, well, picasso stayed in paris. once a german office sir.
you know, the... idea of art representing objects event. i think it's too easy to dismiss it realistic. for for example, the rumor is, maybe you know it, that during world war ii, well, picasso stayed in paris. once a german office sir.
Paul Holdengräber
wonderful story.
wonderful story.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, you know. visited him and saw gernica the painting. and said, oh, you need this, no? and you know what picasso answered? no, sorry, you did this. bomb guernica and so on. so i'm here. almost a. platonique. really. i think that. and especially you can see this with picasso. what appears as not literal reproduction, for example, he distorts faces and so on. in this way, somehow and quite naively metaphysically here, he brings out much more directly than reality i'm consciously using these naive terms, the essence of what you are. to bring out the essence, you have to distort. really.
yeah, you know. visited him and saw gernica the painting. and said, oh, you need this, no? and you know what picasso answered? no, sorry, you did this. bomb guernica and so on. so i'm here. almost a. platonique. really. i think that. and especially you can see this with picasso. what appears as not literal reproduction, for example, he distorts faces and so on. in this way, somehow and quite naively metaphysically here, he brings out much more directly than reality i'm consciously using these naive terms, the essence of what you are. to bring out the essence, you have to distort. really.
Paul Holdengräber
y. you know, there's that wonderful line of oscar wilde where he says, if a man uses a spade, he should use it on himself. in other words, be careful if you represent things exactly as they are.
y. you know, there's that wonderful line of oscar wilde where he says, if a man uses a spade, he should use it on himself. in other words, be careful if you represent things exactly as they are.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, and here for this reason...
yeah, and here for this reason...
Paul Holdengräber
i'm sorry.
i'm sorry.
Slavoj Žižek
jump a little bit up and down. for this reason, i think that even if we look at the history of religion, let's say christianity, i'm sorry to disappoint you, absolutely for protestantism. i think that only with protestantism christianity comes. don eat. essence, why? because... you know, just a detail. if you know the bible, you know that the wife of pontius pilatus tried to convince him don christ is a... saying something spiritual about him, don't condemn him, set him free. now, catholics celebrate here almost as a saint, as a minor saint, like he saw christ and so on.
jump a little bit up and down. for this reason, i think that even if we look at the history of religion, let's say christianity, i'm sorry to disappoint you, absolutely for protestantism. i think that only with protestantism christianity comes. don eat. essence, why? because... you know, just a detail. if you know the bible, you know that the wife of pontius pilatus tried to convince him don christ is a... saying something spiritual about him, don't condemn him, set him free. now, catholics celebrate here almost as a saint, as a minor saint, like he saw christ and so on.
Paul Holdengräber
my.
my.
Slavoj Žižek
i am much closer to protestant opinion, which is the opposite one.
i am much closer to protestant opinion, which is the opposite one.
Paul Holdengräber
yeah.
yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
pius pilatus' wife was the instrument of the devil. why, because imagine if pontius pilatus were to set christ free. where would christianity be? she came here to liberate us, to be crucified and so on, you know. you know this die protestant idea. and only with protestantism and with certain kinds of mysticism, like the reian mysticism from meister eckhart to j job boöhme, it comes out that... there is an evil dimension, a wrath, an explosion of evil in god himself. to think properly god, you must accept that at some fundamental level, god is evil. christ is born not to redeem us, but to redeem god. him. so uh... for example, do you remember the theological debate when franciscus was still the pope a couple of years?
pius pilatus' wife was the instrument of the devil. why, because imagine if pontius pilatus were to set christ free. where would christianity be? she came here to liberate us, to be crucified and so on, you know. you know this die protestant idea. and only with protestantism and with certain kinds of mysticism, like the reian mysticism from meister eckhart to j job boöhme, it comes out that... there is an evil dimension, a wrath, an explosion of evil in god himself. to think properly god, you must accept that at some fundamental level, god is evil. christ is born not to redeem us, but to redeem god. him. so uh... for example, do you remember the theological debate when franciscus was still the pope a couple of years?
Paul Holdengräber
don.
don.
Slavoj Žižek
where franciscus, who disappointed me deeply here, proposed to change the translation of they do not lead us into temptation in a more. benevolent form like protect us from temptation. the idea is that my god god is supreme good. he cannot. actively tent. no, every protestant would have answered.
where franciscus, who disappointed me deeply here, proposed to change the translation of they do not lead us into temptation in a more. benevolent form like protect us from temptation. the idea is that my god god is supreme good. he cannot. actively tent. no, every protestant would have answered.
Paul Holdengräber
game
game
Slavoj Žižek
on the contrary. gthic! look at the paradise. the stupid tree there with apple and snake and so on. so god says, don't eat from that. tree, the apple or whatever. why then did he put this tree in the barrel?
on the contrary. gthic! look at the paradise. the stupid tree there with apple and snake and so on. so god says, don't eat from that. tree, the apple or whatever. why then did he put this tree in the barrel?
Paul Holdengräber
middle of the paradise.
middle of the paradise.
Slavoj Žižek
pure pure logic of temptation. why? because god was a but hedelia. and he was well aware. that the fall is, as they put it already in medieval times, a happy fall. that's where we don't pretend to we can speak about and so on. that we fall from jumping. into evil from good back. what we fall from emerges only through the fall as its retroactive effect. before the fall, we are not good. we are stupid animals, whatever. through the fall, you, in a negative way, you discover. good is that what you are missing but it doesn't it doesn't pre-exist. the thought. so, let me go quickly. sorry. no...
pure pure logic of temptation. why? because god was a but hedelia. and he was well aware. that the fall is, as they put it already in medieval times, a happy fall. that's where we don't pretend to we can speak about and so on. that we fall from jumping. into evil from good back. what we fall from emerges only through the fall as its retroactive effect. before the fall, we are not good. we are stupid animals, whatever. through the fall, you, in a negative way, you discover. good is that what you are missing but it doesn't it doesn't pre-exist. the thought. so, let me go quickly. sorry. no...
Paul Holdengräber
what interests me also in this is that in the way you're describing it, it made me think of the tree. the apple or the fruit as it is in the bible. made me think of the very interesting comments you make about rené girard and his readers.
what interests me also in this is that in the way you're describing it, it made me think of the tree. the apple or the fruit as it is in the bible. made me think of the very interesting comments you make about rené girard and his readers.
Slavoj Žižek
ren, i will put it very ironically, rené girard, you mean the philosopher who grounded Donald Trump and Peter Thiel.
ren, i will put it very ironically, rené girard, you mean the philosopher who grounded Donald Trump and Peter Thiel.
Paul Holdengräber
the it is i was totally unaware of this. it is interesting. i think people here would be interested to know who girard. have influenced in the most strange way.
the it is i was totally unaware of this. it is interesting. i think people here would be interested to know who girard. have influenced in the most strange way.
Slavoj Žižek
it should... only girard. one can learn so much from today's new popul right. do you know that, for example, do you know that the most popular theorist among them today is Antonio Gramsci? with his notion of hegemony, strategy for hegemony. and they are right. the success of trump is his victory in the struggle for hegemony. we had discontent of the ordinary poor white workers here, farmers and so on. in itself this was not automatically a leftist position. this was one ideological element. and tr. took it. trump triumphantly re-appropriated it, something that is usually an element of the leftist discourse, discourse, the suffering of ordinary people and so on.
it should... only girard. one can learn so much from today's new popul right. do you know that, for example, do you know that the most popular theorist among them today is Antonio Gramsci? with his notion of hegemony, strategy for hegemony. and they are right. the success of trump is his victory in the struggle for hegemony. we had discontent of the ordinary poor white workers here, farmers and so on. in itself this was not automatically a leftist position. this was one ideological element. and tr. took it. trump triumphantly re-appropriated it, something that is usually an element of the leftist discourse, discourse, the suffering of ordinary people and so on.
Paul Holdengräber
he.
he.
Slavoj Žižek
re-appropriated it. with rené girard, we are dealing with the simplification, of course, of his theory of sacrifice sacrifice and mimetic desire and all that. but uh der. you cannot say that peter till and then v who also come. study is extraordinary extraordinary yes you can sorry? no, you cannot say that they misunderstood simply. rené girard. there is a way to mis-read girard, which is paradoxically inscribed already as a possibility. it doesn't make him any worse thinker, into rené girard himself. but let me go on here. this all the story about the fall and so on. if i may indulge in a brief improvisation. you bring me to the topic of... trans. trans in the sense of transsexuality, you know.
re-appropriated it. with rené girard, we are dealing with the simplification, of course, of his theory of sacrifice sacrifice and mimetic desire and all that. but uh der. you cannot say that peter till and then v who also come. study is extraordinary extraordinary yes you can sorry? no, you cannot say that they misunderstood simply. rené girard. there is a way to mis-read girard, which is paradoxically inscribed already as a possibility. it doesn't make him any worse thinker, into rené girard himself. but let me go on here. this all the story about the fall and so on. if i may indulge in a brief improvisation. you bring me to the topic of... trans. trans in the sense of transsexuality, you know.
Paul Holdengräber
uh.
uh.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, i'm often attacked as being still caught in the sexual binary and so on. no, i'm absolutely incidentally pro-binary, you know, all this idea of multitude, not just... the opposition is, i think, fake. why? let me explain this. no, no, no, let me explain this. there is, i often use it in my work, you must have heard it. unfortunately, some of you. a wonderful story that i found in Guardian, Eyal Weizman, i think, a commentary that a lady reports on seeing a hardcore not movie. a about how making a heart.
yeah, i'm often attacked as being still caught in the sexual binary and so on. no, i'm absolutely incidentally pro-binary, you know, all this idea of multitude, not just... the opposition is, i think, fake. why? let me explain this. no, no, no, let me explain this. there is, i often use it in my work, you must have heard it. unfortunately, some of you. a wonderful story that i found in Guardian, Eyal Weizman, i think, a commentary that a lady reports on seeing a hardcore not movie. a about how making a heart.
Paul Holdengräber
por.
por.
Slavoj Žižek
movie. and aim traumatized her there. you see the policy, no this is not hardcore but camera behind the camera a guy there is doing it. intense sexual act to the lady. in the middle of it, he stands up, steps back. and said, oh my god, i'm losing direction. could somebody bring me my iphone so that i will look at porn to get direction again. this is what freud meant. at its most elementary. you are never alone just with your partner. you need a fantasy support. and that freud's point, we have what we call infantile sexuality. you know, all these crazy theories about when you... no. something mysterious is going on in sex but you don't know about it. and then you get all these crazy infantile theories. then uh... come period of latency and then through puberty and so on. but what and so on? it's not that. when you reach puberty, you simply drop all these crazy infantile sexual fantasies. because now you know what it is. no, you are like that hardcore actor. you need not. no, no, no, no, no you are not you don't have qualities for that but seriously, what i want to say is that. that's freud's deepest message. freud's message is not... this stupid pansexualism. whatever you think you are doing, it's implicitly about sex. now, the freud question is, but what you are thinking of when you are doing it sex. and the idea is not about sex, but some... these primitive infantile theories which can be very beautiful. i will tell you i remember traatically. i still remember them two theories from my youth, when i already knew. sexual act penetration. kre. a child? but i didn't know how it works. how's called the animal who allegedly stalk or who who? bring you. the child. my first journey was that. you make love in front of a window and stork is observing you. and if you're doing well, mailauvin you. if you do it nicely, then the stork will bring you as a reward. another child. another theory very popular with women with whom very few of them i had a relationship that i had was that it's not just i do it and the woman is pregnant. no, it's constant work. you say to your wife, today let's do the ears or the head. you do it. then tomorrow let's do the eyes. then let you know it's a beautiful i i like them. so what i'm saying, now we come to it. did a crucial point. we is death. uh. we never really get over this. when when we are adults, it's never just me and not you you but partner and we say oh who cares? let's just do it and enjoy it. no, to enjoy it you need a fantasy. support. you fantasize about something, if you take that away, it's not really sex, it's just brutal. co second point connected to this, now i come to trans. uh. you know what's my problem with with... oui... trans. would you... know, i think it's the most subversive position. i'm talking about a certain trans ideology. weak. bwa. if you are lazy. you are too lazy to reconstruct, deconstruct yourself. you become, if you are a man, some kind of man like me, cis man, which means you look down, oh, i have a pen stole. i don't want to work, let's simply identify with what i am biologically. no, the whole point of freud is that. for us humans. biological maturation is a very... painful, traumatic. process there is nothing direct about it. sexuality as such in this sense is br it's not something. biological where does here problem appear? what i don't like in predominant trans ideology. is the idea that trans sexuality is not. biological, i agree with you. but then... usually they say it doesn't matter what you are biologically, it matters what you feel, experience yourself as. that i radically regret. for the predominant trans ideology, the freudian unconscious doesn't exist. but i believe that what you experience yourself as ich. always based on something repressed, it's ambiguous and so on. for example, there are, i was at some point and i never performed gay acts, but for long years the only way for me to be able to do sex is to imagine that my partner is a man dressed up as a woman. . and so i... shoes sorry, when was shoes? when we the people take over for this, you get five years of dula. but that's another story. look, but seriously, you see... you see my point. the this passage from biological sex. do. gender as a social category. is a very painful process full of repressions, traumatic cuts and so on. and so on. and sorry, just one point. i'll stop immediately. this is why i think that what i, maybe you know this line of thought, what i really like about lgbt and you add all the letters plus is this mysterious plus. if plus is an empirical category, like, oh there are so many gender identities that should we never know did we cover them all. so let's leave plus in the sense of maybe other identities will emerge. no, i think. and many my trans frank? agree here deeply with me that blaach ich. precisely subjectivity is such. plus is your true identity as a subject. bl. you can be directly a plus. without being this or that, gay, whatever. subject is this excess and every sexual identity is already. escape. from this excess which is why the greatest trans theorist, if you ask me, was René Descartes. with his cogito, cogito. do you know that? immediate followers of descartes. where many ladies. who loved cogito because they said cogito doesn't have a sex. it comes second as a construction and so on. it was not just the queen christina from sweden. there were many others who appropriated. goguito! and for their transposition and very interestingly i had a debate. with judith butler once where we both agree that. when he talks about this subject who performatively constructs itself, herself, herself, whatever you want, that this works only et is purest in modern cartesian subjectivity. forget about all those pre-modern notions that women also play an important role. no, this is the very oppressive mythological space where usually you have some universal sexualized space where a masculine principle heaven screws the feminine principle earth and then blah blah blah. no, we need the space for trans is the space of a subject who is originally empty. and i think that. disposition ich not. originally neutral. but it is... much closer to the feminine. porues. because the way i read. b. famous topic developed by helene deutsch and the work following freud. the femininity is a masquerade. i think this is true, but it's a very cartesian thought. it doesn't diminish women. we men are idiots who think we are something identical. we mean. remain open. that's why the basic subversive im. a picture of a... woman is hysteria. what does hysteria mean at its utmost? a zero level of the critique of ideology.
movie. and aim traumatized her there. you see the policy, no this is not hardcore but camera behind the camera a guy there is doing it. intense sexual act to the lady. in the middle of it, he stands up, steps back. and said, oh my god, i'm losing direction. could somebody bring me my iphone so that i will look at porn to get direction again. this is what freud meant. at its most elementary. you are never alone just with your partner. you need a fantasy support. and that freud's point, we have what we call infantile sexuality. you know, all these crazy theories about when you... no. something mysterious is going on in sex but you don't know about it. and then you get all these crazy infantile theories. then uh... come period of latency and then through puberty and so on. but what and so on? it's not that. when you reach puberty, you simply drop all these crazy infantile sexual fantasies. because now you know what it is. no, you are like that hardcore actor. you need not. no, no, no, no, no you are not you don't have qualities for that but seriously, what i want to say is that. that's freud's deepest message. freud's message is not... this stupid pansexualism. whatever you think you are doing, it's implicitly about sex. now, the freud question is, but what you are thinking of when you are doing it sex. and the idea is not about sex, but some... these primitive infantile theories which can be very beautiful. i will tell you i remember traatically. i still remember them two theories from my youth, when i already knew. sexual act penetration. kre. a child? but i didn't know how it works. how's called the animal who allegedly stalk or who who? bring you. the child. my first journey was that. you make love in front of a window and stork is observing you. and if you're doing well, mailauvin you. if you do it nicely, then the stork will bring you as a reward. another child. another theory very popular with women with whom very few of them i had a relationship that i had was that it's not just i do it and the woman is pregnant. no, it's constant work. you say to your wife, today let's do the ears or the head. you do it. then tomorrow let's do the eyes. then let you know it's a beautiful i i like them. so what i'm saying, now we come to it. did a crucial point. we is death. uh. we never really get over this. when when we are adults, it's never just me and not you you but partner and we say oh who cares? let's just do it and enjoy it. no, to enjoy it you need a fantasy. support. you fantasize about something, if you take that away, it's not really sex, it's just brutal. co second point connected to this, now i come to trans. uh. you know what's my problem with with... oui... trans. would you... know, i think it's the most subversive position. i'm talking about a certain trans ideology. weak. bwa. if you are lazy. you are too lazy to reconstruct, deconstruct yourself. you become, if you are a man, some kind of man like me, cis man, which means you look down, oh, i have a pen stole. i don't want to work, let's simply identify with what i am biologically. no, the whole point of freud is that. for us humans. biological maturation is a very... painful, traumatic. process there is nothing direct about it. sexuality as such in this sense is br it's not something. biological where does here problem appear? what i don't like in predominant trans ideology. is the idea that trans sexuality is not. biological, i agree with you. but then... usually they say it doesn't matter what you are biologically, it matters what you feel, experience yourself as. that i radically regret. for the predominant trans ideology, the freudian unconscious doesn't exist. but i believe that what you experience yourself as ich. always based on something repressed, it's ambiguous and so on. for example, there are, i was at some point and i never performed gay acts, but for long years the only way for me to be able to do sex is to imagine that my partner is a man dressed up as a woman. . and so i... shoes sorry, when was shoes? when we the people take over for this, you get five years of dula. but that's another story. look, but seriously, you see... you see my point. the this passage from biological sex. do. gender as a social category. is a very painful process full of repressions, traumatic cuts and so on. and so on. and sorry, just one point. i'll stop immediately. this is why i think that what i, maybe you know this line of thought, what i really like about lgbt and you add all the letters plus is this mysterious plus. if plus is an empirical category, like, oh there are so many gender identities that should we never know did we cover them all. so let's leave plus in the sense of maybe other identities will emerge. no, i think. and many my trans frank? agree here deeply with me that blaach ich. precisely subjectivity is such. plus is your true identity as a subject. bl. you can be directly a plus. without being this or that, gay, whatever. subject is this excess and every sexual identity is already. escape. from this excess which is why the greatest trans theorist, if you ask me, was René Descartes. with his cogito, cogito. do you know that? immediate followers of descartes. where many ladies. who loved cogito because they said cogito doesn't have a sex. it comes second as a construction and so on. it was not just the queen christina from sweden. there were many others who appropriated. goguito! and for their transposition and very interestingly i had a debate. with judith butler once where we both agree that. when he talks about this subject who performatively constructs itself, herself, herself, whatever you want, that this works only et is purest in modern cartesian subjectivity. forget about all those pre-modern notions that women also play an important role. no, this is the very oppressive mythological space where usually you have some universal sexualized space where a masculine principle heaven screws the feminine principle earth and then blah blah blah. no, we need the space for trans is the space of a subject who is originally empty. and i think that. disposition ich not. originally neutral. but it is... much closer to the feminine. porues. because the way i read. b. famous topic developed by helene deutsch and the work following freud. the femininity is a masquerade. i think this is true, but it's a very cartesian thought. it doesn't diminish women. we men are idiots who think we are something identical. we mean. remain open. that's why the basic subversive im. a picture of a... woman is hysteria. what does hysteria mean at its utmost? a zero level of the critique of ideology.
Paul Holdengräber
his means
his means
Slavoj Žižek
the... official regime of ideology interpolpellates me as you al put or puts on me a certain form of subjectivity. you are worker, woman, mother, whatever.
the... official regime of ideology interpolpellates me as you al put or puts on me a certain form of subjectivity. you are worker, woman, mother, whatever.
Paul Holdengräber
hysterical questions.
hysterical questions.
Slavoj Žižek
it's a very simple one. the one that Juliet asks Romeo, why am i that name? why am i what you are saying that i am? this doubting, questioning idiot
it's a very simple one. the one that Juliet asks Romeo, why am i that name? why am i what you are saying that i am? this doubting, questioning idiot
Paul Holdengräber
biological.
biological.
Slavoj Žižek
identity conferred on you by the system. and that's the problem, as i already developed yesterday, that i see also with today's permissiveness. it's strictly perverted permissiveness.
identity conferred on you by the system. and that's the problem, as i already developed yesterday, that i see also with today's permissiveness. it's strictly perverted permissiveness.
Paul Holdengräber
look deep into you and what you are. i don't want to discover what i. level.
look deep into you and what you are. i don't want to discover what i. level.
Slavoj Žižek
thank you.
thank you.
Paul Holdengräber
no no, no, no, not finito. we will pursue that very subject. as you know, i have a passion for someone i think is probably one of the greatest psychoanalysts and essayists in the world, a man named adam phillips. wrote a beautiful book called on kissing, tickling and being bored. and he believes very strongly that psychoanalysis should abandon. self-knowledge. gnoti seon, he has no interest in know yourself, the socratic idea. possibly going back to the notion of nietzsche, who said that only a slave can know himself. he says, things are more important than your suffering or pleasure. the version of psychoanalysis i want to promote. is more committed to happiness and inspiration than to self-knowledge, rigorous thinking or the depths of being. psychoanalysis does not need more abstruse or sentimental distractions. i love this. any new paradigms of radical revisions, it just needs more good sentences. more sentences, better writing, better sentences. yeah yeah. and so he believes in taking a pleasure in the recklessness of your own mind, what psychoanalysis at its best does. is cure you. of your self-knowledge. you can only recover your appetite and appetites if you can allow yourself to be unknown to yourself. everybody's dealing with how much aliveness they can bear. i'm wondering how that resonates for you.
no no, no, no, not finito. we will pursue that very subject. as you know, i have a passion for someone i think is probably one of the greatest psychoanalysts and essayists in the world, a man named adam phillips. wrote a beautiful book called on kissing, tickling and being bored. and he believes very strongly that psychoanalysis should abandon. self-knowledge. gnoti seon, he has no interest in know yourself, the socratic idea. possibly going back to the notion of nietzsche, who said that only a slave can know himself. he says, things are more important than your suffering or pleasure. the version of psychoanalysis i want to promote. is more committed to happiness and inspiration than to self-knowledge, rigorous thinking or the depths of being. psychoanalysis does not need more abstruse or sentimental distractions. i love this. any new paradigms of radical revisions, it just needs more good sentences. more sentences, better writing, better sentences. yeah yeah. and so he believes in taking a pleasure in the recklessness of your own mind, what psychoanalysis at its best does. is cure you. of your self-knowledge. you can only recover your appetite and appetites if you can allow yourself to be unknown to yourself. everybody's dealing with how much aliveness they can bear. i'm wondering how that resonates for you.
Slavoj Žižek
almost agree with. amy my problem is i totally agree. but i think this is psychoanalysis. psychoanalysis is not, look this is deep fre, look deep into yourself. the lesson of psychoanalysis is... find a proper alienh. you will find the truth about you outside.
almost agree with. amy my problem is i totally agree. but i think this is psychoanalysis. psychoanalysis is not, look this is deep fre, look deep into yourself. the lesson of psychoanalysis is... find a proper alienh. you will find the truth about you outside.
Paul Holdengräber
uh
uh
Slavoj Žižek
what... uh... what do i mean by this? uh i mean...
what... uh... what do i mean by this? uh i mean...
Paul Holdengräber
quite
quite
Slavoj Žižek
literally. learn to feel at home in al age. by alienation, i don't mean simply the standard marxist alienation.
literally. learn to feel at home in al age. by alienation, i don't mean simply the standard marxist alienation.
Paul Holdengräber
you produce something you don't recognize your own product in it and. so on.
you produce something you don't recognize your own product in it and. so on.
Slavoj Žižek
no, i think... that what freud discovers as this primordial, sorry, describes as this primordial perversity, there you are caught into yourself. i agree with adam phillips that you should learn this this hunger for knowing the world look outside yourself. or to name that what was the tv series famous about
no, i think... that what freud discovers as this primordial, sorry, describes as this primordial perversity, there you are caught into yourself. i agree with adam phillips that you should learn this this hunger for knowing the world look outside yourself. or to name that what was the tv series famous about
Paul Holdengräber
well, democracy
well, democracy
Slavoj Žižek
of us a truth is out. there. now i will give you not to take too much time.
of us a truth is out. there. now i will give you not to take too much time.
Paul Holdengräber
that
that
Slavoj Žižek
my favorite example here, i must say.
my favorite example here, i must say.
Paul Holdengräber
i
i
Slavoj Žižek
i will go so far in this demigration of intimate knowledge that i would say that even even our we should learn to externalize even our innermost experiences. that's why, i'm not kidding, it's not a postmodern joke. if you ask me what was the greatest contribution in the 20th century of american culture to the world culture, i would say, k laughter. you know what i mean. a tv said, laughter included. this is a wonderful invention. why? because maybe i'm an idiot. i asked my friends, it works with them also. you return in the evening at home, you are tired as a dog, you want to be amused. so you open up tv, some of these stupid series, whatever,. the you you don't even have to laugh. the machine already laughs. but you know what's crucial? and here i tested it with myself and my friends.
i will go so far in this demigration of intimate knowledge that i would say that even even our we should learn to externalize even our innermost experiences. that's why, i'm not kidding, it's not a postmodern joke. if you ask me what was the greatest contribution in the 20th century of american culture to the world culture, i would say, k laughter. you know what i mean. a tv said, laughter included. this is a wonderful invention. why? because maybe i'm an idiot. i asked my friends, it works with them also. you return in the evening at home, you are tired as a dog, you want to be amused. so you open up tv, some of these stupid series, whatever,. the you you don't even have to laugh. the machine already laughs. but you know what's crucial? and here i tested it with myself and my friends.
Paul Holdengräber
even. although you
even. although you
Slavoj Žižek
ben.
ben.
Paul Holdengräber
yes.
yes.
Slavoj Žižek
you feel relieved as if you had love for yourself. the machine can do for you even your innermost passive experience. that's why. that's why this is my idea. i don't want to enjoy. i want to work and have another the party to enjoy passively for me.
you feel relieved as if you had love for yourself. the machine can do for you even your innermost passive experience. that's why. that's why this is my idea. i don't want to enjoy. i want to work and have another the party to enjoy passively for me.
Paul Holdengräber
for adam, the interest, he believes, first of all, that has no interest in convincing people to go into analysis. you go into analysis if you have an appetite for it. if you don't, there are many other ways of getting... getting what you could get out of it. well.
for adam, the interest, he believes, first of all, that has no interest in convincing people to go into analysis. you go into analysis if you have an appetite for it. if you don't, there are many other ways of getting... getting what you could get out of it. well.
Slavoj Žižek
get more complicated. maybe i softly disagree. but one thing i want to say.
get more complicated. maybe i softly disagree. but one thing i want to say.
Paul Holdengräber
he has one line which i adore. he, he said. you can't tickle yourself.
he has one line which i adore. he, he said. you can't tickle yourself.
Slavoj Žižek
what, what about masturbation? i don't get it.
what, what about masturbation? i don't get it.
Paul Holdengräber
no, but i...
no, but i...
Slavoj Žižek
you, you know yeah, i know.
you, you know yeah, i know.
Paul Holdengräber
but but even if you think of masturbation, if we want to stay on that subject for a while.
but but even if you think of masturbation, if we want to stay on that subject for a while.
Slavoj Žižek
.
.
Paul Holdengräber
you also have the whole fantasy that you were talking about.
you also have the whole fantasy that you were talking about.
Slavoj Žižek
here right? i see. yeah. no, no but.
here right? i see. yeah. no, no but.
Paul Holdengräber
so in other words, we need the other.
so in other words, we need the other.
Slavoj Žižek
yes, definitely, but nonetheless. the problem for me here ich das. yes, the first step is alienation. you discover the truth is outside. but then the second step for lacon is that. this other ultimately doesn't exist. it doesn't mean it's really all in me. it means something much deeper. that's why for laccon, alienation is followed by separation. not in the sense that i am separated from the other, but in the sense that the other is in itself ignorant, stupid, separated from himself and so on. and this is all that hegel is about. how hegel rich? christianity.
yes, definitely, but nonetheless. the problem for me here ich das. yes, the first step is alienation. you discover the truth is outside. but then the second step for lacon is that. this other ultimately doesn't exist. it doesn't mean it's really all in me. it means something much deeper. that's why for laccon, alienation is followed by separation. not in the sense that i am separated from the other, but in the sense that the other is in itself ignorant, stupid, separated from himself and so on. and this is all that hegel is about. how hegel rich? christianity.
Paul Holdengräber
check the.
check the.
Slavoj Žižek
dead. how does christianity overcome the separation between god and human being. it's not god is up there, i am here, and if i fast myself, suffer, pray, do good works, i will approach god. no it's the other way around. you must discover precisely when you feel totally abandoned by god. that you are in the position of christ on the cross. that is to say that the distance that separates you from god is im to god. himself, you will not find any ultimate support in. god. that's for me. the formula of true atheism.
dead. how does christianity overcome the separation between god and human being. it's not god is up there, i am here, and if i fast myself, suffer, pray, do good works, i will approach god. no it's the other way around. you must discover precisely when you feel totally abandoned by god. that you are in the position of christ on the cross. that is to say that the distance that separates you from god is im to god. himself, you will not find any ultimate support in. god. that's for me. the formula of true atheism.
Paul Holdengräber
before we bring nadia on stage. i have to say that i remained surprised. by this book.
before we bring nadia on stage. i have to say that i remained surprised. by this book.
Slavoj Žižek
i also, also i brit.
i also, also i brit.
Paul Holdengräber
why? why i mean, why? i've spoken to a number of quantum physicists. i must say that when i'm on stage with them, it's an extraordinary exercise in camouflage on my part, trying to make sure that nobody understands how little i understand.
why? why i mean, why? i've spoken to a number of quantum physicists. i must say that when i'm on stage with them, it's an extraordinary exercise in camouflage on my part, trying to make sure that nobody understands how little i understand.
Slavoj Žižek
but it's abc, you know what? your most american, most famous physicist, richard feynman, what he said,, the abc of quantum theory is you cannot understand it. nobody understands it. no, it doesn't mean we are all. it simply means quantum physique implies. a vision of reality which simply what do we mean? when you say i understand something. it means i was able to. reduce it, integrate it into myont worldview. with quantum physics, you cannot do it. allright. but another thing, just to adam phillips, that's interesting, then nadia should say me. i don't think she will. no, no, no. what i wanted to say is that you know where i don't quite agree with adam phillips? uh. the truly interesting problem for me is... how does psychoanalysis today work? a typical patient. middle upper middle class educated. they no longer come to you as, you know the freud story of a patient tells you something and then you interpret it. but this really means that you want to kill your father and screw your mother or whatever. no, the patients today are... enlightened, they think they know it. they come to you and say, i had a dream about a woman, but probably this was my mother and so on. they in advance time with the theory. you literally have jungian patients and so on and so on. so i agree with adam, philip, that we should step out of this. but what i don't see is just where does this stupid idea of happiness come? i don't want to be happy. i want to struggle, fight in pain and so on. where did did he read too much of your stupid constitution? this how you for happiness and so on. no, i don't. i think that. what psychoanalysis brings is precisely death drive, not as some mystical tendency to kill yourself or not to disappear. no, death drive is freudian name for immortality. in what terms? i'm sorry we don't have time if you were to have... the jacket you had yesterday, that, i would prefer not to. and with this, we really, it's time for nadia. listen. for me, the first theor where psychoanalysis begins is immanuel kant, as lacon says. why? in kant, you find a wonderful distinction. between negative and infinite judgment. a stance says very precisely, a negative judgment. just... negate a predicate. an infinite judgment. doesn't negate a predicate but aer affirms a non-predicate. what does this mean? we are in stephen king territory.
but it's abc, you know what? your most american, most famous physicist, richard feynman, what he said,, the abc of quantum theory is you cannot understand it. nobody understands it. no, it doesn't mean we are all. it simply means quantum physique implies. a vision of reality which simply what do we mean? when you say i understand something. it means i was able to. reduce it, integrate it into myont worldview. with quantum physics, you cannot do it. allright. but another thing, just to adam phillips, that's interesting, then nadia should say me. i don't think she will. no, no, no. what i wanted to say is that you know where i don't quite agree with adam phillips? uh. the truly interesting problem for me is... how does psychoanalysis today work? a typical patient. middle upper middle class educated. they no longer come to you as, you know the freud story of a patient tells you something and then you interpret it. but this really means that you want to kill your father and screw your mother or whatever. no, the patients today are... enlightened, they think they know it. they come to you and say, i had a dream about a woman, but probably this was my mother and so on. they in advance time with the theory. you literally have jungian patients and so on and so on. so i agree with adam, philip, that we should step out of this. but what i don't see is just where does this stupid idea of happiness come? i don't want to be happy. i want to struggle, fight in pain and so on. where did did he read too much of your stupid constitution? this how you for happiness and so on. no, i don't. i think that. what psychoanalysis brings is precisely death drive, not as some mystical tendency to kill yourself or not to disappear. no, death drive is freudian name for immortality. in what terms? i'm sorry we don't have time if you were to have... the jacket you had yesterday, that, i would prefer not to. and with this, we really, it's time for nadia. listen. for me, the first theor where psychoanalysis begins is immanuel kant, as lacon says. why? in kant, you find a wonderful distinction. between negative and infinite judgment. a stance says very precisely, a negative judgment. just... negate a predicate. an infinite judgment. doesn't negate a predicate but aer affirms a non-predicate. what does this mean? we are in stephen king territory.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
i'll tell you.
i'll tell you.
Slavoj Žižek
you. you are dead. sorry, you are not dead. i'm dead or i'm not dead. you are not dead.
you. you are dead. sorry, you are not dead. i'm dead or i'm not dead. you are not dead.
Paul Holdengräber
i'm not that.
i'm not that.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah. sorry for confusion. this you negate a predicate, you then i deny a predicate. you are not dead. it simply means you are alive. but when you don't negate a predicate, but assert a non-predicate. instead of saying, you are. you are not dead. you say you are undead. we are here in horror territory, living dead and so on. and that's the dimension of subjectivity. this is the dimension of death drive. this is precisely this.
yeah. sorry for confusion. this you negate a predicate, you then i deny a predicate. you are not dead. it simply means you are alive. but when you don't negate a predicate, but assert a non-predicate. instead of saying, you are. you are not dead. you say you are undead. we are here in horror territory, living dead and so on. and that's the dimension of subjectivity. this is the dimension of death drive. this is precisely this.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
um...
um...
Slavoj Žižek
deadness where you cannot you cannot even die. you cannot find escape in death. this is the domain of subjectivity. and we i... that we don't want where does this stupid idea come that we want happiness?
deadness where you cannot you cannot even die. you cannot find escape in death. this is the domain of subjectivity. and we i... that we don't want where does this stupid idea come that we want happiness?
Paul Holdengräber
so... as i bring... nia, nadia, nadia on stage. i'm a quotomaniac by profession. i prepared two
so... as i bring... nia, nadia, nadia on stage. i'm a quotomaniac by profession. i prepared two
Slavoj Žižek
i.
i.
Paul Holdengräber
in that way. i quote from lenin or marx to justify. i'm not quoting from lenin or marx or stalin. when we take power, you will. i will. but in the meantime, maybe just one quotation. no, two quotations. one from marshall stins, which i adore i admire. yeah. good. i'm glad. he says, a people who conceive of life to be the pursuit of happiness must be chronically unhappy.
in that way. i quote from lenin or marx to justify. i'm not quoting from lenin or marx or stalin. when we take power, you will. i will. but in the meantime, maybe just one quotation. no, two quotations. one from marshall stins, which i adore i admire. yeah. good. i'm glad. he says, a people who conceive of life to be the pursuit of happiness must be chronically unhappy.
Slavoj Žižek
happ
happ
Paul Holdengräber
and then the other wonderful line, the other one is from henrik ibsen, who said, it is the mark of the spirit of rebellion to crave for happiness in this life. nadia, come on stage.
and then the other wonderful line, the other one is from henrik ibsen, who said, it is the mark of the spirit of rebellion to crave for happiness in this life. nadia, come on stage.
Slavoj Žižek
no,, because for example, protect palestinians today.
no,, because for example, protect palestinians today.
Paul Holdengräber
if...
if...
Slavoj Žižek
search for happiness.
search for happiness.
Paul Holdengräber
plusisch,,.
plusisch,,.
Slavoj Žižek
that rebellion precisely means you rebel, but not because you dream of some happiness and so on. to greet you here, i must tell you something which will sound an insult. but as always with me, it's the highest praise i can give you. i don't like you, i hate you. why? because if i were to say you are, if i were to say you are great, you are creative and so on, this is for me, especially if a man tells this to a woman, it's always hidden patronizing stance. you know, like, i am above you and i can condescendingly say, oh, you are intelligent, bright. no, no.
that rebellion precisely means you rebel, but not because you dream of some happiness and so on. to greet you here, i must tell you something which will sound an insult. but as always with me, it's the highest praise i can give you. i don't like you, i hate you. why? because if i were to say you are, if i were to say you are great, you are creative and so on, this is for me, especially if a man tells this to a woman, it's always hidden patronizing stance. you know, like, i am above you and i can condescendingly say, oh, you are intelligent, bright. no, no.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
i didn't mind that. you're true.
i didn't mind that. you're true.
Slavoj Žižek
because it's much worse. i hate you because you surprise me again and again. which insights which threaten my position. being with you means i cannot sleep in peace, you know.
because it's much worse. i hate you because you surprise me again and again. which insights which threaten my position. being with you means i cannot sleep in peace, you know.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
it's my fault.
it's my fault.
Slavoj Žižek
ple in this book sense, the best sense, all my friends whom i really admire. from al kopant to my colleague tish to, in this sense, i hate them. but now comes the very evil part.
ple in this book sense, the best sense, all my friends whom i really admire. from al kopant to my colleague tish to, in this sense, i hate them. but now comes the very evil part.
Paul Holdengräber
team. i like.
team. i like.
Slavoj Žižek
he's very and so on. i don't hate you. thank you very much. sorry, let's go on. sorry, i don't want to.
he's very and so on. i don't hate you. thank you very much. sorry, let's go on. sorry, i don't want to.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
we're going into the trump territory now, as he said at his address to the military leadership in quantico on september 30th this year. we should use some of these dangerous cities as training grounds for our military, national guard, but military, because we're going into chicago very soon. and it also happened that i'm going 'm to chicago very soon with something that's called police state. it's my installation and inter performance. and i happened to write this text that we somehow agreed on me reading right now. as trump is deploying his troops in chicago, injuring, detaining and dehumanizing his own citizens, my installation police state enters the city.
we're going into the trump territory now, as he said at his address to the military leadership in quantico on september 30th this year. we should use some of these dangerous cities as training grounds for our military, national guard, but military, because we're going into chicago very soon. and it also happened that i'm going 'm to chicago very soon with something that's called police state. it's my installation and inter performance. and i happened to write this text that we somehow agreed on me reading right now. as trump is deploying his troops in chicago, injuring, detaining and dehumanizing his own citizens, my installation police state enters the city.
Paul Holdengräber
everybody hearing well yeah yeah go ahead.
everybody hearing well yeah yeah go ahead.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
this work isn't about the past, even though it's based on my experience of surviving an authoritarian state. witnessing my friends being murdered and tortured in jails, being subjected myself to forced labor and just normal stuff, spending a few years in jail. it all starts with dehumanization, depriving a class of people, in this instance, it was people who are against putin, of their dignity. a specter is haunting the world, the specter of authoritarianism.
this work isn't about the past, even though it's based on my experience of surviving an authoritarian state. witnessing my friends being murdered and tortured in jails, being subjected myself to forced labor and just normal stuff, spending a few years in jail. it all starts with dehumanization, depriving a class of people, in this instance, it was people who are against putin, of their dignity. a specter is haunting the world, the specter of authoritarianism.
Slavoj Žižek
fueled by unprecedented technological and financial might.
fueled by unprecedented technological and financial might.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
as more and more resources and power are globally being concentrated in the hands of the very few, we are losing our chance to take control of our lives and our future. we're entering the era of global surveillance police state. unlike putin, trump isn't shy away from openly, obscenely declaring his goals. he's using power, eliminating his opponents, and bashing what's left of the welfare safety net for the everyday people like you and me. trump is moving much faster and in tightening his grip than putin was. so there is a certain danger in drawing historical parallels. the us had more than russia in its bank of freedoms to start with. but with trump's dedication and ferocity, and the backing of extremely wealthy and powerful, this bank could be drained before you know it. police state isn't about the past, it's about our common future, or better put, a dyst version of the future that will become reality if we fail to act. and lastly, history. whether will end history, whether we will end up being winners or losers, we remember those who made a choice not to bow down to fascism.
as more and more resources and power are globally being concentrated in the hands of the very few, we are losing our chance to take control of our lives and our future. we're entering the era of global surveillance police state. unlike putin, trump isn't shy away from openly, obscenely declaring his goals. he's using power, eliminating his opponents, and bashing what's left of the welfare safety net for the everyday people like you and me. trump is moving much faster and in tightening his grip than putin was. so there is a certain danger in drawing historical parallels. the us had more than russia in its bank of freedoms to start with. but with trump's dedication and ferocity, and the backing of extremely wealthy and powerful, this bank could be drained before you know it. police state isn't about the past, it's about our common future, or better put, a dyst version of the future that will become reality if we fail to act. and lastly, history. whether will end history, whether we will end up being winners or losers, we remember those who made a choice not to bow down to fascism.
Slavoj Žižek
you're not a good stalinist, you didn't join the applause, you know. sorry., quite seriously, i take very seriously what you said. i wonder if you will agree with how i would like to pursue a little bit these lines along this idea. i agree with you that trump and before him, pure obscenity, not Vance, who was the guy... Hegseth, that Hungarian sounding guy.
you're not a good stalinist, you didn't join the applause, you know. sorry., quite seriously, i take very seriously what you said. i wonder if you will agree with how i would like to pursue a little bit these lines along this idea. i agree with you that trump and before him, pure obscenity, not Vance, who was the guy... Hegseth, that Hungarian sounding guy.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
it
it
Slavoj Žižek
it it. yeah. it. so ridiculous but we shouldn't just laugh at it. what i almost like about Hegseth is this idea you shouldn't be fat, you should and so on.
it it. yeah. it. so ridiculous but we shouldn't just laugh at it. what i almost like about Hegseth is this idea you shouldn't be fat, you should and so on.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
where does he live? this is an old
where does he live? this is an old
Slavoj Žižek
the of which
the of which
Nadya Tolokonnikova
president does he serve.
president does he serve.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, yeah. because today, look at ukraine russia. those who do most of the fighting are nerds or fat people sitting behind the screen and so on, but more important.
yeah, yeah. because today, look at ukraine russia. those who do most of the fighting are nerds or fat people sitting behind the screen and so on, but more important.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
one of them is my former husband.
one of them is my former husband.
Slavoj Žižek
really?
really?
Nadya Tolokonnikova
yeah peter
yeah peter
Slavoj Žižek
mobilized he does this.
mobilized he does this.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
he's not mobilized, it's just his choice.
he's not mobilized, it's just his choice.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah,'re the crazy ones did you divorce him because he does this or did he do this because you abandoned him and out of despair? we.
yeah,'re the crazy ones did you divorce him because he does this or did he do this because you abandoned him and out of despair? we.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
the second one.
the second one.
Slavoj Žižek
yes.
yes.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
actually, i've been married you talk a lot about leading a very conservative lifestyle and i agree with you. so i got married with a guy with whom i lost virginity and from the same person i have a child and i've been married with him since i was 17 and then i married john and in between of those two marriages i had only three days. so ever since i'm 17 i'm pretty much... in marital.
actually, i've been married you talk a lot about leading a very conservative lifestyle and i agree with you. so i got married with a guy with whom i lost virginity and from the same person i have a child and i've been married with him since i was 17 and then i married john and in between of those two marriages i had only three days. so ever since i'm 17 i'm pretty much... in marital.
Slavoj Žižek
i sincerely admire you here, because i think the most conservative thing today is simple promiscuity. and this is what adam phillips would have said this. that's old story, maybe you know it. when i was in argentina, they told me that in the good old days, psychoanalysis, the analyst has to decide with your symptoms, do you need treatment or not? the basic criterion was if you are faithful to your party. you're normal. if you are promiscuous, oh, what are you running from? you need a treatment. today it's horrible, i was told. it's the opposite. if you... change partners all the time, it means you are normal dynamic. if you are faithful to a partner, it's a pathology.
i sincerely admire you here, because i think the most conservative thing today is simple promiscuity. and this is what adam phillips would have said this. that's old story, maybe you know it. when i was in argentina, they told me that in the good old days, psychoanalysis, the analyst has to decide with your symptoms, do you need treatment or not? the basic criterion was if you are faithful to your party. you're normal. if you are promiscuous, oh, what are you running from? you need a treatment. today it's horrible, i was told. it's the opposite. if you... change partners all the time, it means you are normal dynamic. if you are faithful to a partner, it's a pathology.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
fix fixation.
fix fixation.
Slavoj Žižek
we have to analyze this. i'm a conservative here, but much more important. did you notice this is what makes me afraid and at the same time gives me hope? the quantico. . that horrible passage that you also quote about how
we have to analyze this. i'm a conservative here, but much more important. did you notice this is what makes me afraid and at the same time gives me hope? the quantico. . that horrible passage that you also quote about how
Nadya Tolokonnikova
to use a american
to use a american
Slavoj Žižek
cities as the training ground for the army. he was addressing the army. now i will do something. i like to provoke people. i will praise the army. and even more the secret police. in what sense? precise sense. uh. you know, trump's idea, the horror is dma. now till the quantumico speak. it look that trump will be satisfied with his special units of national guard. i have those to send them this. sorry?
cities as the training ground for the army. he was addressing the army. now i will do something. i like to provoke people. i will praise the army. and even more the secret police. in what sense? precise sense. uh. you know, trump's idea, the horror is dma. now till the quantumico speak. it look that trump will be satisfied with his special units of national guard. i have those to send them this. sorry?
Nadya Tolokonnikova
ice.
ice.
Slavoj Žižek
the point he left the army alone.
the point he left the army alone.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
we need something very desperate.
we need something very desperate.
Slavoj Žižek
better.
better.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
he became...
he became...
Slavoj Žižek
became aware that to really win. he should not leave army as a neutral institution outside. it was a desperate attempt to politicize the army itself. because this then fits his horrible theory that as steve bannon and others are repeating. america already is at war with its own big corporations connected with homeless people and immigrants and so on. so that the war is here. so this i find... pretty! terrifying but i hope he will say you remember i'm not seriously celebrating the army i know imperialist army what they're doing but one thing you have to admit do you remember when trump lost elections in 2000. uh. and after that disorder and almost rebellion of his followers, you know. the army heck the top of the arm. made a crucial statement. they say they will not tolerate the disintegration of the constitutional order and some, you know, i know people who know people, who know people, who know. high people in even white house and they told me this was the crucial thing otherwise trump's supporters would have gone further. so this is a crazy fantasy. i hope you will like it. paul but my fantasy is that if... trump will sh.
became aware that to really win. he should not leave army as a neutral institution outside. it was a desperate attempt to politicize the army itself. because this then fits his horrible theory that as steve bannon and others are repeating. america already is at war with its own big corporations connected with homeless people and immigrants and so on. so that the war is here. so this i find... pretty! terrifying but i hope he will say you remember i'm not seriously celebrating the army i know imperialist army what they're doing but one thing you have to admit do you remember when trump lost elections in 2000. uh. and after that disorder and almost rebellion of his followers, you know. the army heck the top of the arm. made a crucial statement. they say they will not tolerate the disintegration of the constitutional order and some, you know, i know people who know people, who know people, who know. high people in even white house and they told me this was the crucial thing otherwise trump's supporters would have gone further. so this is a crazy fantasy. i hope you will like it. paul but my fantasy is that if... trump will sh.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
who knows?
who knows?
Slavoj Žižek
maybe a nice, not full military coup. a african military will save you from trump. because military although they are evil, i have no illusions, but you know, in the united states they imminently resist to be politicized. second object that i want to celebrate, don't laugh earth. h police now in israel. you know who really res? netanyahu government and all those freaks.
maybe a nice, not full military coup. a african military will save you from trump. because military although they are evil, i have no illusions, but you know, in the united states they imminently resist to be politicized. second object that i want to celebrate, don't laugh earth. h police now in israel. you know who really res? netanyahu government and all those freaks.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
we are.
we are.
Slavoj Žižek
extra. Shin Bet! and Shin Bet and what's the other one, Mossad or whatever, the secret police, do you know that i through some relative of him who is the, i plan when it will be safe for me to go to Israel to meet him, Ami Ayalon, ex-boss of, i think, Shin Bet. you know what he said already on 10th, 11th of october, two years ago? he said, no, the only way for us is to allow palestinians some genuine political autonomy. and he even proposed a person, Marwan Barghouti. who, this is one of the most... terrifying images that i saw when Ben-Gvir visited Barghouti in prison and you can see Barghouti who was very lively strong person is now half dead obviously tortured and so on. but how secret police and here really we are becoming authoritarian country because in authoritarian countries not only this do you remember that a couple of months ago 550 retired and active agents of, i think, Shin Bet, i think. sign a protest against Netanyahu what he is doing in Gaza. you know why? because as you nicely pointed out this authoritarian tendency, you know what the paradox in authoritarian countries
extra. Shin Bet! and Shin Bet and what's the other one, Mossad or whatever, the secret police, do you know that i through some relative of him who is the, i plan when it will be safe for me to go to Israel to meet him, Ami Ayalon, ex-boss of, i think, Shin Bet. you know what he said already on 10th, 11th of october, two years ago? he said, no, the only way for us is to allow palestinians some genuine political autonomy. and he even proposed a person, Marwan Barghouti. who, this is one of the most... terrifying images that i saw when Ben-Gvir visited Barghouti in prison and you can see Barghouti who was very lively strong person is now half dead obviously tortured and so on. but how secret police and here really we are becoming authoritarian country because in authoritarian countries not only this do you remember that a couple of months ago 550 retired and active agents of, i think, Shin Bet, i think. sign a protest against Netanyahu what he is doing in Gaza. you know why? because as you nicely pointed out this authoritarian tendency, you know what the paradox in authoritarian countries
Nadya Tolokonnikova
secret police place
secret police place
Slavoj Žižek
a very ambiguous role. on the one hand, yes, they control you and so on, all that. on the other hand, because the whole public space is censored, they are the ones who see the truth, who know the truth. people are not satisfied and so on and so on. so we should never, i have the same experience, even maybe in russia and jumping too quick, but we should never forget that. Gorbachev. whatever whatever he did. um... do .
a very ambiguous role. on the one hand, yes, they control you and so on, all that. on the other hand, because the whole public space is censored, they are the ones who see the truth, who know the truth. people are not satisfied and so on and so on. so we should never, i have the same experience, even maybe in russia and jumping too quick, but we should never forget that. Gorbachev. whatever whatever he did. um... do .
Paul Holdengräber
okay, give me lime.
okay, give me lime.
Slavoj Žižek
off my god. was and drop off. he, he was gb from there. you know, that's the... who maybe it would have worked. and Andropov's plan was more like the Deng Xiaoping, Chinese one. privatization but authoritarian one. so we should be here. the idea is this one. to conclude. believe me or not. you know, i'm a pessimist in works sense. you know this link here, you will not agree to provoke you. this lincoln's famous statement, which, of course, as all great statements was not really from lincoln, no, you can treat all the people, sometimes some people all the time. you cannot treat all people all the time. well, i think you can, more or less.
off my god. was and drop off. he, he was gb from there. you know, that's the... who maybe it would have worked. and Andropov's plan was more like the Deng Xiaoping, Chinese one. privatization but authoritarian one. so we should be here. the idea is this one. to conclude. believe me or not. you know, i'm a pessimist in works sense. you know this link here, you will not agree to provoke you. this lincoln's famous statement, which, of course, as all great statements was not really from lincoln, no, you can treat all the people, sometimes some people all the time. you cannot treat all people all the time. well, i think you can, more or less.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
no, i agree with that.
no, i agree with that.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah that's why we should be, i call this principled opportunism of pragmatism.
yeah that's why we should be, i call this principled opportunism of pragmatism.
Paul Holdengräber
who knows?
who knows?
Slavoj Žižek
i am of course against the army.
i am of course against the army.
Paul Holdengräber
in a certain situation
in a certain situation
Slavoj Žižek
strategically the army may
strategically the army may
Paul Holdengräber
s there's hope. sony, there's hope.
s there's hope. sony, there's hope.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
i
i
Slavoj Žižek
if you have...
if you have...
Paul Holdengräber
the hope the
the hope the
Nadya Tolokonnikova
army we felt pretty low.
army we felt pretty low.
Paul Holdengräber
right, nadia. you have questions.
right, nadia. you have questions.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
oh yeah lot.
oh yeah lot.
Paul Holdengräber
so i feel you should
so i feel you should
Slavoj Žižek
refer to question
refer to question
Paul Holdengräber
i i know, but i prefer for nadia to
i i know, but i prefer for nadia to
Nadya Tolokonnikova
help right
help right
Paul Holdengräber
you questionav, i know you had.
you questionav, i know you had.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
the first one is pretty simple. do you see aoc leading the us as being a left charismatic stalinist leader you're looking for?
the first one is pretty simple. do you see aoc leading the us as being a left charismatic stalinist leader you're looking for?
Slavoj Žižek
first, this is all bad jokes, stalinism and so on. don't impute me this too much. but yes, yes, we need a less charismatic leader, but you know why? not that i seriously believe in charismatic power, but for me, charisma means something very specific. who was a charismatic leader, although ultimately he failed, mandela. not because of what he did, but his figure as such gave people hope. he meant, even if we are in deep shit, change is possible. and for this, we need a leader. that's my paradox. i don't have time. i did it in my to develop it. if people are let to themselves. we are inner beings. you just want to enjoy happily your small life and so on. you need a leader to keep you from outside, but of course not in an authoritarian way, in the sense that... he mobilizes you. and you guys have to agree, maybe the best version is this one. we need a leader like this, but then since all leaders usually succumb to temptation,, and like maybe there should be some secret committee who after five, six years organizes an accident for the leader. but do you, yes, in this sense, let's stop those bro, not stalinists, but to mobilize people, you need... and i will give you a proof, although he is too old to do this. i mentioned this yesterday. you remember joe biden inauguration. who stole the show there? bernie sanders by just sitting there. and i think it was yeah with gloves and so on. but for me... this gives me hope. for about the american people. how? you remember when trump was shot, it's not clear even now, was it on stake? you know everybody was afraid he image that famous photo photo photo black from blah blah. no, it didn't become a legendary image. it didn't catch up. while bernie, but you know what this means? this means that millions of people saw that. democratic inauguration of biden. was a fake. they didn't really confront the danger of trump. they simply. escape into the idea, yeah, this was a misfortune, now we can forget about it. we return to normal american way of life. it didn't work. so the answer is yes, you know who came close to it, but then he betrayed it. that... obama's famous yes we can.
first, this is all bad jokes, stalinism and so on. don't impute me this too much. but yes, yes, we need a less charismatic leader, but you know why? not that i seriously believe in charismatic power, but for me, charisma means something very specific. who was a charismatic leader, although ultimately he failed, mandela. not because of what he did, but his figure as such gave people hope. he meant, even if we are in deep shit, change is possible. and for this, we need a leader. that's my paradox. i don't have time. i did it in my to develop it. if people are let to themselves. we are inner beings. you just want to enjoy happily your small life and so on. you need a leader to keep you from outside, but of course not in an authoritarian way, in the sense that... he mobilizes you. and you guys have to agree, maybe the best version is this one. we need a leader like this, but then since all leaders usually succumb to temptation,, and like maybe there should be some secret committee who after five, six years organizes an accident for the leader. but do you, yes, in this sense, let's stop those bro, not stalinists, but to mobilize people, you need... and i will give you a proof, although he is too old to do this. i mentioned this yesterday. you remember joe biden inauguration. who stole the show there? bernie sanders by just sitting there. and i think it was yeah with gloves and so on. but for me... this gives me hope. for about the american people. how? you remember when trump was shot, it's not clear even now, was it on stake? you know everybody was afraid he image that famous photo photo photo black from blah blah. no, it didn't become a legendary image. it didn't catch up. while bernie, but you know what this means? this means that millions of people saw that. democratic inauguration of biden. was a fake. they didn't really confront the danger of trump. they simply. escape into the idea, yeah, this was a misfortune, now we can forget about it. we return to normal american way of life. it didn't work. so the answer is yes, you know who came close to it, but then he betrayed it. that... obama's famous yes we can.
Paul Holdengräber
i like precisely this app.
i like precisely this app.
Slavoj Žižek
's.? yes, we can do this.
's.? yes, we can do this.
Paul Holdengräber
richtich dich abstr.
richtich dich abstr.
Slavoj Žižek
yes, we can. then, of course, with already what you refer to, police state observation, you know, a nice satirical version is that in the second term of obama, yes, we can. became, yes, we can. we stand for the documents and so on. but yes, the answer is yes. sorry, go on.
yes, we can. then, of course, with already what you refer to, police state observation, you know, a nice satirical version is that in the second term of obama, yes, we can. became, yes, we can. we stand for the documents and so on. but yes, the answer is yes. sorry, go on.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
i agree with you, w. you do need a charismatic leader. i'm seeing the total death of the russian opposition to kremlin after the death of Navalny. and as someone who have started at some point an anti anti-authoritarian, anti-leader movement called Pussy Riot, i wanted to believe that people themselves can organize and figure out ideas and talk about the future. without Navalny, they can't figure it out. he promised. he come up with something that was pretty close to what obama promised. he talked a lot about a beautiful russia of the future. what is going to happen in the beautiful russia of the future? he never put it in concrete. but people believed it. than nothing.
i agree with you, w. you do need a charismatic leader. i'm seeing the total death of the russian opposition to kremlin after the death of Navalny. and as someone who have started at some point an anti anti-authoritarian, anti-leader movement called Pussy Riot, i wanted to believe that people themselves can organize and figure out ideas and talk about the future. without Navalny, they can't figure it out. he promised. he come up with something that was pretty close to what obama promised. he talked a lot about a beautiful russia of the future. what is going to happen in the beautiful russia of the future? he never put it in concrete. but people believed it. than nothing.
Slavoj Žižek
nonetheless. keep the space of dreaming open. then of course there is always struggle. what will this future be? but what, the point now is to keep this space open.
nonetheless. keep the space of dreaming open. then of course there is always struggle. what will this future be? but what, the point now is to keep this space open.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
that moves me to the next question. do you think that after trump cancelled identity politics, the left will be able to move beyond it? not canceling it, but like in hegelian way, just moving to the next step, right?
that moves me to the next question. do you think that after trump cancelled identity politics, the left will be able to move beyond it? not canceling it, but like in hegelian way, just moving to the next step, right?
Slavoj Žižek
time to move from.
time to move from.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
identity politics.
identity politics.
Slavoj Žižek
i.
i.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
so the question is like, i mean, and my answer is yes, because i'm looking at what Zohran Mamdani and AOC and Bernie Sanders are talking about, and they're talking about the essence of the problem from which everything grows, like from the root, which is skyrocketing inequality.
so the question is like, i mean, and my answer is yes, because i'm looking at what Zohran Mamdani and AOC and Bernie Sanders are talking about, and they're talking about the essence of the problem from which everything grows, like from the root, which is skyrocketing inequality.
Paul Holdengräber
i'm maybe.
i'm maybe.
Slavoj Žižek
a little bit more passionate, but basically i agree with you. what i do i mean by this? you know, first, the problem with identity politics, the best argument was given to me when i visited india and i hope so properly. i visited there the trade union of the of the lowest caste of untouchables. they are cleaning this dry toilet. you know that half of india still doesn't have water left toilet so same.
a little bit more passionate, but basically i agree with you. what i do i mean by this? you know, first, the problem with identity politics, the best argument was given to me when i visited india and i hope so properly. i visited there the trade union of the of the lowest caste of untouchables. they are cleaning this dry toilet. you know that half of india still doesn't have water left toilet so same.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
and.
and.
Slavoj Žižek
you meet people once, twice a year to do their the lowest. and i asked them, what's your program? and they provided me a wonderful simple formula, the opposite of identity politics. our main goal is not to be what we are now. it's not we want what to be real authentic dry toilet cleaner or whatever. you know, so that's for me the first point the first reason not so much this particularization and so on of identity, but this basic stance of no. i don't want to be what i am. i want to move further. that's probably the basic problem.
you meet people once, twice a year to do their the lowest. and i asked them, what's your program? and they provided me a wonderful simple formula, the opposite of identity politics. our main goal is not to be what we are now. it's not we want what to be real authentic dry toilet cleaner or whatever. you know, so that's for me the first point the first reason not so much this particularization and so on of identity, but this basic stance of no. i don't want to be what i am. i want to move further. that's probably the basic problem.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
as a russian, i can plus. i do not want to be russian. like it sucks these days to be a russian. so i always wanted to be a plus.
as a russian, i can plus. i do not want to be russian. like it sucks these days to be a russian. so i always wanted to be a plus.
Paul Holdengräber
i become a price. yes.
i become a price. yes.
Slavoj Žižek
ah.
ah.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
.
.
Paul Holdengräber
ich
ich
Slavoj Žižek
as every country, i'm very careful here not to move into an anti-russian, i hope we agree here, attitude.
as every country, i'm very careful here not to move into an anti-russian, i hope we agree here, attitude.
Paul Holdengräber
and
and
Slavoj Žižek
you're not.
you're not.
Paul Holdengräber
why be wait a minute. you don't agree? no no, let's you don't agree.
why be wait a minute. you don't agree? no no, let's you don't agree.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
well, my feelings tell me that i loved russia. i loved moscow. i would give my entire self to it. then the first crack happened when i saw moscow through this little hole in an armored vehicle from which they transported me from jail to court.
well, my feelings tell me that i loved russia. i loved moscow. i would give my entire self to it. then the first crack happened when i saw moscow through this little hole in an armored vehicle from which they transported me from jail to court.
Paul Holdengräber
mm-hmm
mm-hmm
Nadya Tolokonnikova
the moment when i was writing letters to you. and i realized that i'm never going to be able to love the streets of moscow in the same way i loved them before. and then with the full-scale invasion in ukraine, i felt like russia i loved died and just the land gave birth to something else that i can't quite grasp.
the moment when i was writing letters to you. and i realized that i'm never going to be able to love the streets of moscow in the same way i loved them before. and then with the full-scale invasion in ukraine, i felt like russia i loved died and just the land gave birth to something else that i can't quite grasp.
Slavoj Žižek
no, i see your point here. but nonetheless, the danger i see, maybe you disagree, is, you know this? with all my love for u. thank.
no, i see your point here. but nonetheless, the danger i see, maybe you disagree, is, you know this? with all my love for u. thank.
Paul Holdengräber
but.
but.
Slavoj Žižek
this radical stance now, all russian music is prohibited, even tchaikovsky, whom i hate, and so on. i don't think that the conflict is, as some ukrainians like to say, between russian asiatic primitivism and so on. i don't think that. putin really stands for some deep archaic tradition and so on. you know with whom i sympathize. this is for a long time that i wanted to ask you. but you get our paradox. first? somebody, i think the french monthly, philosophical monthly philosophy magazine, organized it that. i wrote you a letter, you wrote me a letter. so we first did a book together. and then years after we met, you know, i would like this to break, sorry for obscenity, that's my to the end. first we write a book together, then we marry, then we have a child without meeting. but what i want to say is that the earth, you know, how do you call them? those who were remember, you know,
this radical stance now, all russian music is prohibited, even tchaikovsky, whom i hate, and so on. i don't think that the conflict is, as some ukrainians like to say, between russian asiatic primitivism and so on. i don't think that. putin really stands for some deep archaic tradition and so on. you know with whom i sympathize. this is for a long time that i wanted to ask you. but you get our paradox. first? somebody, i think the french monthly, philosophical monthly philosophy magazine, organized it that. i wrote you a letter, you wrote me a letter. so we first did a book together. and then years after we met, you know, i would like this to break, sorry for obscenity, that's my to the end. first we write a book together, then we marry, then we have a child without meeting. but what i want to say is that the earth, you know, how do you call them? those who were remember, you know,
Paul Holdengräber
m.
m.
Slavoj Žižek
opina, those old believers.
opina, those old believers.
Paul Holdengräber
they have a very strange...
they have a very strange...
Slavoj Žižek
faith. d. in some sense, almost progressive. resisting the tzarist state. then very so rare. yeah, very interesting data. bolshevik. quite many of them. functionaries were close to these old believers. with stalin it turned around. so i think putin should be put in the line of peter the great, stalin and so on. brutal modernizer. i think it's totally wrong to leave to putin the monopoly on russian culture and so on.
faith. d. in some sense, almost progressive. resisting the tzarist state. then very so rare. yeah, very interesting data. bolshevik. quite many of them. functionaries were close to these old believers. with stalin it turned around. so i think putin should be put in the line of peter the great, stalin and so on. brutal modernizer. i think it's totally wrong to leave to putin the monopoly on russian culture and so on.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
yeah, i agree. but the thing with putin and i don't agree with you that he's a modernizer. the only thing that he modernizes is his own wallet.
yeah, i agree. but the thing with putin and i don't agree with you that he's a modernizer. the only thing that he modernizes is his own wallet.
Slavoj Žižek
you look, oh, wait a minute. he modernizes in the sense of developing arms, making russia and so on.
you look, oh, wait a minute. he modernizes in the sense of developing arms, making russia and so on.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
but they fight with chinese weapons. i am no.
but they fight with chinese weapons. i am no.
Slavoj Žižek
but now you are touching something i'm so sad we don't have time to go into it no? what really interests me is, and i think europe missed here the opportunity. uh. europe should be much more careful with china i think that i don't have any trust in chinese democracy and over. but the good thing about china is that they are far away. so, you know, i remember from my youth when czechoslovakia was after 68 under r control, after 68, the joke was some divine entity asked an ordinary czech guy what the three wishes. he said, first, i want to be occupied by china, my country. second time, i want to be occupied for half a year by china. third again, and god said, okay, i will do this to you, but why? because each time they will have to move across. r so what i want to say is that this is the catastrophe, megaatastrophe of t. he brought together. k. russia is now even more than india, latin america, even sorry?
but now you are touching something i'm so sad we don't have time to go into it no? what really interests me is, and i think europe missed here the opportunity. uh. europe should be much more careful with china i think that i don't have any trust in chinese democracy and over. but the good thing about china is that they are far away. so, you know, i remember from my youth when czechoslovakia was after 68 under r control, after 68, the joke was some divine entity asked an ordinary czech guy what the three wishes. he said, first, i want to be occupied by china, my country. second time, i want to be occupied for half a year by china. third again, and god said, okay, i will do this to you, but why? because each time they will have to move across. r so what i want to say is that this is the catastrophe, megaatastrophe of t. he brought together. k. russia is now even more than india, latin america, even sorry?
Nadya Tolokonnikova
i ran.
i ran.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, i mean, at the end, it will be not even western europe which is disintegrating from within. it will be trump and his small empire and the majority of the world. this is for me the problem. so what i'm saying is that nonetheless like you, i don't like, for example, the big russian literature tradition, no? although i prefer, i wonder if we agree here, you'll probably disagree. i prefer tolstoy to dostoevsky.
yeah, i mean, at the end, it will be not even western europe which is disintegrating from within. it will be trump and his small empire and the majority of the world. this is for me the problem. so what i'm saying is that nonetheless like you, i don't like, for example, the big russian literature tradition, no? although i prefer, i wonder if we agree here, you'll probably disagree. i prefer tolstoy to dostoevsky.
Paul Holdengräber
ah
ah
Slavoj Žižek
you know, i know, i know. i think tolstoy is not as stupid as he may appear. but i like the third line, gogol, sikov cherin and so on.
you know, i know, i know. i think tolstoy is not as stupid as he may appear. but i like the third line, gogol, sikov cherin and so on.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
i would choose g, but he's not russian. sorry? he's ukrainian.
i would choose g, but he's not russian. sorry? he's ukrainian.
Slavoj Žižek
oh my god, now you are playing this game.
oh my god, now you are playing this game.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
i. r russian literature.
i. r russian literature.
Slavoj Žižek
i also know that, for example, i
i also know that, for example, i
Nadya Tolokonnikova
you said you prefer g and he's ukrainian. you said it, not me. yeah.
you said you prefer g and he's ukrainian. you said it, not me. yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, but what i'm saying is that. uh. uh... in the hit for example, how many great for example, i read somewhere that in the 20s. here i am anti- putin and pro-ukraine, the most horrible statement by putin you must remember it is. two speeches that he gave in 21st, 23rd of february after attacking ukraine. he only mentioned one name critically. lay. he said, ukraine should be called ukraine, vladim ililyich lenina, ukraine as a nation was a bolshevik formation to guarantee greater soviet union and so on. and he even plays a very dirty game where he says in ukraine they are now destroying communism. communistuments, they want decolonization. and then putin said, well, we can help them. we will bring decolonization to the end by cancelling ukrainians as a nation so what i'm saying is that what i'm saying is that. what europe should have done after this rapprochement between trump and putin is to first, reassert itself as a superpower which europe is strong enough. it could have done it. end. develop with all critical attitude towards their politics and so on, develop economic ties, open itself to china. that would have been something. europe missed it, as usual. i talk too much, sorry. i would agree about.
yeah, but what i'm saying is that. uh. uh... in the hit for example, how many great for example, i read somewhere that in the 20s. here i am anti- putin and pro-ukraine, the most horrible statement by putin you must remember it is. two speeches that he gave in 21st, 23rd of february after attacking ukraine. he only mentioned one name critically. lay. he said, ukraine should be called ukraine, vladim ililyich lenina, ukraine as a nation was a bolshevik formation to guarantee greater soviet union and so on. and he even plays a very dirty game where he says in ukraine they are now destroying communism. communistuments, they want decolonization. and then putin said, well, we can help them. we will bring decolonization to the end by cancelling ukrainians as a nation so what i'm saying is that what i'm saying is that. what europe should have done after this rapprochement between trump and putin is to first, reassert itself as a superpower which europe is strong enough. it could have done it. end. develop with all critical attitude towards their politics and so on, develop economic ties, open itself to china. that would have been something. europe missed it, as usual. i talk too much, sorry. i would agree about.
Paul Holdengräber
go. what he is ukrain or that he is great he is absolutely i mean my favorite of them all. yeah the line i've always adored. is nabokov wrote an extraordinary tiny little book. about gogor. where he tries to describe something that i myself adore but not quite don't practice quite as much as you do, slavoj, which is digression. and gogol says to describe digression. he says, if two parallel lines do not meet. it is not... because meat. they cannot. but because they have other things to do.
go. what he is ukrain or that he is great he is absolutely i mean my favorite of them all. yeah the line i've always adored. is nabokov wrote an extraordinary tiny little book. about gogor. where he tries to describe something that i myself adore but not quite don't practice quite as much as you do, slavoj, which is digression. and gogol says to describe digression. he says, if two parallel lines do not meet. it is not... because meat. they cannot. but because they have other things to do.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah.
yeah.
Paul Holdengräber
that to my mind is perfect. help.
that to my mind is perfect. help.
Slavoj Žižek
i wonder if you would agree with this. again, i provoke here consciously. i am, i think. authentic multi
i wonder if you would agree with this. again, i provoke here consciously. i am, i think. authentic multi
Paul Holdengräber
the culturalist, which is why i hate the ordinary.
the culturalist, which is why i hate the ordinary.
Slavoj Žižek
the of multiculturalism. lich. i don't want to understand all different cultures.
the of multiculturalism. lich. i don't want to understand all different cultures.
Paul Holdengräber
so
so
Slavoj Žižek
i want to keep a distance. i don't want to know them all and so on. uh. i think that precisely in our global world, as my friend, otherwise conservative, but i appreciate him, Peter Sloterdijk, you should invite him once, the German philosopher, yeah, he said we need today a new logic of discretion of distance, you know. don't try to understand everything. the first premise should be you know, when people tell you, you should read them closely, you should understand them. but first, i don't believe that the others themselves understand themselves. they are confused also about themselves. so what i believe is that and this brings me back to your adam philip. it's easier, i don't want to understand my nation. i want to i can understand others better than they do and maybe they can understand me. and the ultimate proof is here where we are now, hollywood. the best movies where you get insight into united states in the 30s are from french and especially german immigrants, not to mention the Hungarian ones, like Michael Curtiz. you know, Michael Curtiz, it's Mihály Kertész, it's Hungarian. Ernst Lubitsch, one of my absolute stars. again, but i wanted to ask you another thing. 20th century russian literature, you must know this. my absolute unconditional love,, andrei platonov. how do you relate to him? not too much.
i want to keep a distance. i don't want to know them all and so on. uh. i think that precisely in our global world, as my friend, otherwise conservative, but i appreciate him, Peter Sloterdijk, you should invite him once, the German philosopher, yeah, he said we need today a new logic of discretion of distance, you know. don't try to understand everything. the first premise should be you know, when people tell you, you should read them closely, you should understand them. but first, i don't believe that the others themselves understand themselves. they are confused also about themselves. so what i believe is that and this brings me back to your adam philip. it's easier, i don't want to understand my nation. i want to i can understand others better than they do and maybe they can understand me. and the ultimate proof is here where we are now, hollywood. the best movies where you get insight into united states in the 30s are from french and especially german immigrants, not to mention the Hungarian ones, like Michael Curtiz. you know, Michael Curtiz, it's Mihály Kertész, it's Hungarian. Ernst Lubitsch, one of my absolute stars. again, but i wanted to ask you another thing. 20th century russian literature, you must know this. my absolute unconditional love,, andrei platonov. how do you relate to him? not too much.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
he's fine, i mean. i'm not saying. another.
he's fine, i mean. i'm not saying. another.
Slavoj Žižek
your reaction is something like maybe orgasm, but not a multiple orgasm.
your reaction is something like maybe orgasm, but not a multiple orgasm.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
at.
at.
Slavoj Žižek
no, sorry. it's so sad that we don't have time.
no, sorry. it's so sad that we don't have time.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
but i liked Mayakovsky when i was a teenager, but who didn't? early 20th century.
but i liked Mayakovsky when i was a teenager, but who didn't? early 20th century.
Slavoj Žižek
keep. my old love. even if i barely could read russian, i had his collected works and so on.
keep. my old love. even if i barely could read russian, i had his collected works and so on.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
he was my first love, so for everyone else it was really difficult to catch my attention after that.
he was my first love, so for everyone else it was really difficult to catch my attention after that.
Paul Holdengräber
i think you had... an interest to us. slavoage also about
i think you had... an interest to us. slavoage also about
Nadya Tolokonnikova
press
press
Paul Holdengräber
sure. depression, if you want, you wanted to talk to him about ai, but you also
sure. depression, if you want, you wanted to talk to him about ai, but you also
Nadya Tolokonnikova
it's the same question. depression and ai. i'm curious how do you solve the new existential problem that comes with this dem sword of the upcoming super intelligence, whether it's going to be in five years or in 50 years. would you continue rating if the tech that is million times smarter than you or i? it's been a major issue for me lately and i've been waking up at night shaking, just thinking about it. because all my skills, all my work is going to be for nothing.
it's the same question. depression and ai. i'm curious how do you solve the new existential problem that comes with this dem sword of the upcoming super intelligence, whether it's going to be in five years or in 50 years. would you continue rating if the tech that is million times smarter than you or i? it's been a major issue for me lately and i've been waking up at night shaking, just thinking about it. because all my skills, all my work is going to be for nothing.
Slavoj Žižek
i have a certain... crazy hope here maybe i'm here. usually i'm a pessimist but not optimisticist not with me but i nonetheless think that machoons will be... they already are intelligent, super ultra intelligent and so on, but they will not be able to think in a human way because thinking comes precisely with our.
i have a certain... crazy hope here maybe i'm here. usually i'm a pessimist but not optimisticist not with me but i nonetheless think that machoons will be... they already are intelligent, super ultra intelligent and so on, but they will not be able to think in a human way because thinking comes precisely with our.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
superhuman.
superhuman.
Slavoj Žižek
with our limitation, with our fin. they will be too bright to think, to put it like this.
with our limitation, with our fin. they will be too bright to think, to put it like this.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
but they could learn finitude from us because that's how they learn. they could learn the finitude from us.
but they could learn finitude from us because that's how they learn. they could learn the finitude from us.
Slavoj Žižek
it will be just copying as an algorithm. they will not, i will repeat myself because you were not there, you were right. what in yesterday
it will be just copying as an algorithm. they will not, i will repeat myself because you were not there, you were right. what in yesterday
Paul Holdengräber
th you. look.
th you. look.
Slavoj Žižek
do think i asked
do think i asked
Paul Holdengräber
you. i'm sorry if some of you were also yesterday that. do think.
you. i'm sorry if some of you were also yesterday that. do think.
Slavoj Žižek
this naive question. what i cannot do. one you know these small rituals, daily rituals. like if you walk on a square with a small black and white stones and so on. most of the people like i shouldn't step two times on the same color and so on. this is something so human. why? because it is an empty ritual. you don't need psychoanalysis to say, oh, the deeper meaning of this is that. no, it's empty meaning. you just create an empty meaning, but it has no meaning. of course you can program this in a
this naive question. what i cannot do. one you know these small rituals, daily rituals. like if you walk on a square with a small black and white stones and so on. most of the people like i shouldn't step two times on the same color and so on. this is something so human. why? because it is an empty ritual. you don't need psychoanalysis to say, oh, the deeper meaning of this is that. no, it's empty meaning. you just create an empty meaning, but it has no meaning. of course you can program this in a
Nadya Tolokonnikova
arguably most of the stuff that chat gpt produces is empty meaning.
arguably most of the stuff that chat gpt produces is empty meaning.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, but not in this sense. is thatgbt able to produce this kind of a ritual another. of course you can program shwen.
yeah, but not in this sense. is thatgbt able to produce this kind of a ritual another. of course you can program shwen.
Paul Holdengräber
f you dirty words and so on.
f you dirty words and so on.
Slavoj Žižek
but i think... again, sorry if you were there yesterday, for me, lacomte says this, that swearing is language at its most elementary. why? because swearing is not just... bert work. we are in language. but at the same time, we, that's the lesson of laccon, are never at home in language. to really think, you must be in language. hegel says this. but think in language against language. i think that with all their intelligence, artificial intelligence is simply perfect functioning of language. of course, you can program it to use.
but i think... again, sorry if you were there yesterday, for me, lacomte says this, that swearing is language at its most elementary. why? because swearing is not just... bert work. we are in language. but at the same time, we, that's the lesson of laccon, are never at home in language. to really think, you must be in language. hegel says this. but think in language against language. i think that with all their intelligence, artificial intelligence is simply perfect functioning of language. of course, you can program it to use.
Paul Holdengräber
but for you, ai is a source of great anxiety.
but for you, ai is a source of great anxiety.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
um... well, i mean, even if we move past the discussion if it's possible for an ai to imitate human in a convincing way. let's say even not. let's say we're talking just about really, really good arms and drones. and all of that is going to be owned by like literally three people on earth. and we know those people, they're not the best moral, ethical individuals. so doesn't it give you anxiety? what about
um... well, i mean, even if we move past the discussion if it's possible for an ai to imitate human in a convincing way. let's say even not. let's say we're talking just about really, really good arms and drones. and all of that is going to be owned by like literally three people on earth. and we know those people, they're not the best moral, ethical individuals. so doesn't it give you anxiety? what about
Slavoj Žižek
no, okay, now you come what you want you will get what you wanted to get, my stalinist type.
no, okay, now you come what you want you will get what you wanted to get, my stalinist type.
Paul Holdengräber
what did you do?
what did you do?
Slavoj Žižek
three. whatever whatever.
three. whatever whatever.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
well, who's going to arrest them if trump is in power and he's in bed with musk?
well, who's going to arrest them if trump is in power and he's in bed with musk?
Paul Holdengräber
o.
o.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
or you want me to get dinner with mask?
or you want me to get dinner with mask?
Slavoj Žižek
i don't poison. i don't think. i don't.
i don't poison. i don't think. i don't.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
ste
ste
Slavoj Žižek
that things will run so smoothly with trump. i think trump, i don't have any illusions in short term, trump is... bright, don't be. don't be... don't fall into his apparent stupidity. this apparent contingency, oh i punish you 10% more tariff. this is a well thought out strategy of confusion so that then he can do individual negotiations and so on. trump is not an idiot. second thing, we can learn a lot from trump. i'm now enjoying reading them. i will mention, i think i didn't yesterday, Curtis Yarvin. okay, i don't agree with his final result. but the way he describes our system. esarchy. and how it functions, it's one of the best descriptions that i know. and he himself, Yarvin, gives a pretty refined comparison. between this new american oligarchy and the stalinist oligarchy. and i want to ask you if you heard it... you know, when i was young, just to make this comparison, when even soviet union doesn't appear so bad compared to american democracy. you know, these old jokes we were all the time. telling it when i was young, an american from houston era, an american and a russian meet and the russian says, oh! with us, we have democracy. i can stand in front of the white house and shout. and and nothing will happen to me. can you do this in moscow? the russian says, of course i can. i can shout here nixon is an idiot in moscow. that happened to me. but you know, there is a much more intelligent version. only recently i heard it. where the russian gives more intelligent answer. which is deeply true for stalinism. he says, yeah, okay, i agree. you cannot shout here. breszhnev is an idiot,. when i go to my job in my small factory office, i can tell my boss you are an idiot. and because in stalinism. but stalin mastered this game of. when he wanted to get rid of some mid-level, you rely you mobilize complaints from below. so it's less dangerous, but in america.
that things will run so smoothly with trump. i think trump, i don't have any illusions in short term, trump is... bright, don't be. don't be... don't fall into his apparent stupidity. this apparent contingency, oh i punish you 10% more tariff. this is a well thought out strategy of confusion so that then he can do individual negotiations and so on. trump is not an idiot. second thing, we can learn a lot from trump. i'm now enjoying reading them. i will mention, i think i didn't yesterday, Curtis Yarvin. okay, i don't agree with his final result. but the way he describes our system. esarchy. and how it functions, it's one of the best descriptions that i know. and he himself, Yarvin, gives a pretty refined comparison. between this new american oligarchy and the stalinist oligarchy. and i want to ask you if you heard it... you know, when i was young, just to make this comparison, when even soviet union doesn't appear so bad compared to american democracy. you know, these old jokes we were all the time. telling it when i was young, an american from houston era, an american and a russian meet and the russian says, oh! with us, we have democracy. i can stand in front of the white house and shout. and and nothing will happen to me. can you do this in moscow? the russian says, of course i can. i can shout here nixon is an idiot in moscow. that happened to me. but you know, there is a much more intelligent version. only recently i heard it. where the russian gives more intelligent answer. which is deeply true for stalinism. he says, yeah, okay, i agree. you cannot shout here. breszhnev is an idiot,. when i go to my job in my small factory office, i can tell my boss you are an idiot. and because in stalinism. but stalin mastered this game of. when he wanted to get rid of some mid-level, you rely you mobilize complaints from below. so it's less dangerous, but in america.
Paul Holdengräber
i that said.
i that said.
Slavoj Žižek
yes. okay, okay, you can criticize nixon, but do you dare to go in your small company, to your boss and tell him you are an idiot? so it's much more complex. so i agree with you. we... we should abandon this simplistic freedom, non-fedom and so on. and would you agree this is my eternal formula, or the time used that. what is so horrible about although now the masks are falling? about our freedom is that for me the most dangerous. unfreedom is unfreedom which experiences itself as freedom. like you just sit in front of your computer, you watch hardcore me oh, you're sorry.
yes. okay, okay, you can criticize nixon, but do you dare to go in your small company, to your boss and tell him you are an idiot? so it's much more complex. so i agree with you. we... we should abandon this simplistic freedom, non-fedom and so on. and would you agree this is my eternal formula, or the time used that. what is so horrible about although now the masks are falling? about our freedom is that for me the most dangerous. unfreedom is unfreedom which experiences itself as freedom. like you just sit in front of your computer, you watch hardcore me oh, you're sorry.
Paul Holdengräber
be.
be.
Slavoj Žižek
whatever and you feel free, you do whatever you want. you are totally controlled, manipulated. i had friends in china. who told me they almost have a nostalgia. for good old times where police control main. you turn around, oh my god, that guy, didn't i see him one hour before? so i am followed and so on.
whatever and you feel free, you do whatever you want. you are totally controlled, manipulated. i had friends in china. who told me they almost have a nostalgia. for good old times where police control main. you turn around, oh my god, that guy, didn't i see him one hour before? so i am followed and so on.
Paul Holdengräber
today, no, we are so totally controlled that there is nobody back there. let me so many questions here. and now we are moving to i will show called free debate. yeah it's very hard to choose. i will choose one. for better or for worse. begin with her. i'll ask it to both of you. why are you looking at me then? look at. i look at her. okay.
today, no, we are so totally controlled that there is nobody back there. let me so many questions here. and now we are moving to i will show called free debate. yeah it's very hard to choose. i will choose one. for better or for worse. begin with her. i'll ask it to both of you. why are you looking at me then? look at. i look at her. okay.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
so st.
so st.
Paul Holdengräber
okay. what advice do you have for someone? who's had a bad day and wants to feel better. now the standard answer, sorry, do you have immediate answer?
okay. what advice do you have for someone? who's had a bad day and wants to feel better. now the standard answer, sorry, do you have immediate answer?
Slavoj Žižek
no... the standard answer humanists would have been, you know. but think about people in gaza or sudan, they are much worse and so on and so on, you know. my answer would have been also not the usual humanist one. use this as a tool for action and so on. but... it really... that you had a bad day, you know. what i practice, now i will do what i never want to do. i will give you my personal. answer what i do. and i'm pretty good at it. i never practiced any meditation but. uh. trying to look at yourself from outside. you know, like, at least i am a foreigner, oh look, that idiot, he had a bad day, haha, look.
no... the standard answer humanists would have been, you know. but think about people in gaza or sudan, they are much worse and so on and so on, you know. my answer would have been also not the usual humanist one. use this as a tool for action and so on. but... it really... that you had a bad day, you know. what i practice, now i will do what i never want to do. i will give you my personal. answer what i do. and i'm pretty good at it. i never practiced any meditation but. uh. trying to look at yourself from outside. you know, like, at least i am a foreigner, oh look, that idiot, he had a bad day, haha, look.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
trying're even better from cosmos. i was doing it when i was passing these specifically bad exams in school.
trying're even better from cosmos. i was doing it when i was passing these specifically bad exams in school.
Slavoj Žižek
i think you are more brighter. how?
i think you are more brighter. how?
Nadya Tolokonnikova
i'm fine, but you know i still worry about stuff. and i was teaching others how not to worry. i was like, well, here're just ants from the point of cosmos and all your worries disappear once you adjust.
i'm fine, but you know i still worry about stuff. and i was teaching others how not to worry. i was like, well, here're just ants from the point of cosmos and all your worries disappear once you adjust.
Slavoj Žižek
let go to the end in feeling bad. all.
let go to the end in feeling bad. all.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
i'm not an expert in filling. the.
i'm not an expert in filling. the.
Slavoj Žižek
a. i'm afraid of dying painfully. but i'm not afraid of death. the beth. that i can imagine is. somethingbody from new school who is old enough to k knew personally hannah arendt told me he was there how she died. in her apartment he received guests, then he had a big f chair, and he those all fell asleep, he awakened, debated a little more, fell asleep, she awakened, and the third time she fell asleep and didn't. awaken.
a. i'm afraid of dying painfully. but i'm not afraid of death. the beth. that i can imagine is. somethingbody from new school who is old enough to k knew personally hannah arendt told me he was there how she died. in her apartment he received guests, then he had a big f chair, and he those all fell asleep, he awakened, debated a little more, fell asleep, she awakened, and the third time she fell asleep and didn't. awaken.
Paul Holdengräber
no more arguments.
no more arguments.
Slavoj Žižek
i would sell my mother into slavery to put it in my to die like this.
i would sell my mother into slavery to put it in my to die like this.
Paul Holdengräber
let me end with a quotation that i want you both to react.
let me end with a quotation that i want you both to react.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
wait, i want to give an answer. so i'm not an expert in having good time. by no means i don't look like one. but i know a person who is much more joyous than me, Marina Abramović. she really wants to meet you. so i want to put you guys together.
wait, i want to give an answer. so i'm not an expert in having good time. by no means i don't look like one. but i know a person who is much more joyous than me, Marina Abramović. she really wants to meet you. so i want to put you guys together.
Slavoj Žižek
i have a problem with artists, you know.
i have a problem with artists, you know.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
out with me but what she says you really need to just find some stupid guilty pleasure tv show and watch it. and actually...
out with me but what she says you really need to just find some stupid guilty pleasure tv show and watch it. and actually...
Paul Holdengräber
did make me feel a little bit better.
did make me feel a little bit better.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
or you could read Curtis Yarvin. i mean, i have all these guilty pleasures. i think watching Peter Thiel talking, it's interesting. it makes me feel better somehow.
or you could read Curtis Yarvin. i mean, i have all these guilty pleasures. i think watching Peter Thiel talking, it's interesting. it makes me feel better somehow.
Slavoj Žižek
. okay, okay, but my problem is nonetheless. now, here, let's draw a real distinction between the two of us. deep in my heart, i am a good old platonist. i don't trust poetry. whenever i hate when everybody attacked us philosophers. you began it all. all dictatorships always have good poets in some cases like mouse the don't divert themselves, the poet look at t.s eliot, ezra pound and so on. most of them were half-fasc and so on. even this is my own experience at yugoslavia. it's not just radan karadic, the president of republika srpska, who was a poet and quite well-known poet. before. in slovenia every republic had a poet so
. okay, okay, but my problem is nonetheless. now, here, let's draw a real distinction between the two of us. deep in my heart, i am a good old platonist. i don't trust poetry. whenever i hate when everybody attacked us philosophers. you began it all. all dictatorships always have good poets in some cases like mouse the don't divert themselves, the poet look at t.s eliot, ezra pound and so on. most of them were half-fasc and so on. even this is my own experience at yugoslavia. it's not just radan karadic, the president of republika srpska, who was a poet and quite well-known poet. before. in slovenia every republic had a poet so
Paul Holdengräber
i think...
i think...
Slavoj Žižek
death. please take it very seriously but in a precise way. it. bech. four. not too much, but a little bit of oppression. that's how you get it. look, i remember when the soviet union was falling apart, oh, now russian spirituality will explode. no, indeed. dead.
death. please take it very seriously but in a precise way. it. bech. four. not too much, but a little bit of oppression. that's how you get it. look, i remember when the soviet union was falling apart, oh, now russian spirituality will explode. no, indeed. dead.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
but the pop music was brilliant. when t.A.T.u. came from the 90s.
but the pop music was brilliant. when t.A.T.u. came from the 90s.
Slavoj Žižek
hello.
hello.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
from the 90s, they appeared in the very beginning of this century, but their roots, you know, this two girls, they were kissing on. agent.
from the 90s, they appeared in the very beginning of this century, but their roots, you know, this two girls, they were kissing on. agent.
Slavoj Žižek
pre. d.
pre. d.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
but yeah, so i mean, i think the pop culture in russia really exploded.
but yeah, so i mean, i think the pop culture in russia really exploded.
Slavoj Žižek
when.
when.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
in the 90s, with the freedom.
in the 90s, with the freedom.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah yeah, yeah. but even there, you know, i am so old-fashioned. in my text about rock music, i am fixated on. everything that really happened happened from 65 to 75.. and it may surprise you, we are close to them. my absolute... wait. it may surprise you, jefferson airplane.
yeah yeah, yeah. but even there, you know, i am so old-fashioned. in my text about rock music, i am fixated on. everything that really happened happened from 65 to 75.. and it may surprise you, we are close to them. my absolute... wait. it may surprise you, jefferson airplane.
Paul Holdengräber
d. and later you also told me you like them there are here and there groups.
d. and later you also told me you like them there are here and there groups.
Slavoj Žižek
like ramstein and so on, but this history is over. and how do you relate by them, to her. i mean look. then i really need the time out. yeah, i admire her beautiful, sexy, intelligent, good businesswoman.
like ramstein and so on, but this history is over. and how do you relate by them, to her. i mean look. then i really need the time out. yeah, i admire her beautiful, sexy, intelligent, good businesswoman.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
i't.
i't.
Slavoj Žižek
no, no, no, no, no, no. my god, who is the mega star today?
no, no, no, no, no, no. my god, who is the mega star today?
Nadya Tolokonnikova
okay.
okay.
Slavoj Žižek
that. don.
that. don.
Paul Holdengräber
i
i
Slavoj Žižek
am i stupid? i cannot relate to music. you do.
am i stupid? i cannot relate to music. you do.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
i, i mean, i agree with you that music is over. when we started pussy riot in 2011, one of the reasons, because i felt like musicians are just repeating the same gestures over and over, and they are quoting exactly from the time period that you've mentioned. and i haven't seen anything new coming up, so we've decided to look at it from the performance art perspective and bring it to the streets.
i, i mean, i agree with you that music is over. when we started pussy riot in 2011, one of the reasons, because i felt like musicians are just repeating the same gestures over and over, and they are quoting exactly from the time period that you've mentioned. and i haven't seen anything new coming up, so we've decided to look at it from the performance art perspective and bring it to the streets.
Paul Holdengräber
from music is over, i want to end on this note. chomsky. y. says something that i like very much. well, that i am the greatest idiot. it.
from music is over, i want to end on this note. chomsky. y. says something that i like very much. well, that i am the greatest idiot. it.
Slavoj Žižek
he said this literally.
he said this literally.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
i'm really glad because i've cried for half an hour after meeting with Chomsky, talking to him. so yeah, i'm really happy that he doesn't like you because it makes me like you better.
i'm really glad because i've cried for half an hour after meeting with Chomsky, talking to him. so yeah, i'm really happy that he doesn't like you because it makes me like you better.
Paul Holdengräber
i you.
i you.
Slavoj Žižek
like you, no?
like you, no?
Nadya Tolokonnikova
naturally, i mean, he likes himself.
naturally, i mean, he likes himself.
Slavoj Žižek
that you put out the secret, you know. sorry, please go on..
that you put out the secret, you know. sorry, please go on..
Paul Holdengräber
so chomsky said this, which i quite like. you might find it stupid. he said optimism. is a strategy for making a better future. because unless you believe that the future can be better, you are unlikely to step up and take responsibility for making it so. no.
so chomsky said this, which i quite like. you might find it stupid. he said optimism. is a strategy for making a better future. because unless you believe that the future can be better, you are unlikely to step up and take responsibility for making it so. no.
Slavoj Žižek
i not to agree for very serious reasons. we don't have time to do it for strictly philosophical reasons. we talked about this. yesterday.
i not to agree for very serious reasons. we don't have time to do it for strictly philosophical reasons. we talked about this. yesterday.
Paul Holdengräber
i think
i think
Slavoj Žižek
that when you make really radical acts you... don't follow an idea in all authentic revolutions. the first thing that gets sacrificed is the very idea we. you. the true revolutionary knows that. revolution at the end will eat him or herself also. so i think that b. that when you act out of despair, it's not that you have already an idea of how, no, what you should always take into account that in the second stage, that idea itself. we. b dismissed as something that still belongs to the old world and will also have to be sacrificed. that's why, for example, i don't. take too seriously all this democratic socialism stuff and so on. this is my big problem with people even. i love you, bernie sanders or my good friend Yanis Varoufakis, you know. they all talk like if we tell the truth, long time enough at some point people will awaken there will be a mass movement and so on. no. i think only a big catastrophe can maybe it's very risky. move them. that's why i love i love Covid. Covid. wasn't probably something wonderful? even mega-conservative politicians like Boris Johnson and Trump. they did measures which were de facto almost communist. didn't here in the united states, every family road get a check for 2000. so you know why this is important. i'm not blabbing. just let me finish. because up to that point... if you try to raise taxes for 2%, economists claim, oh no, this will ruin the system. we saw how many things it was possible to do against the market. against the logic of the market and the system didn't collapse. that's for me good news about Covid and i think that uh. we are approaching, we don't know what form, ecological, military, artificial intelligence crisis. i define myself as communist, but in the sense of war communism. let's prepare for an emergency state so that the right-wing fascists will not... take over then. thank you very much. no. now. i final vote i personally. both of you, i hope, saw that multi-title movie the life of brian. my god nowhere, it's an ironic retelling of. jesus christ's story where at a certain point you have some palestinian revolutionary movement against the romans. no. and they meet preparing revolution and somebody says, okay, our conclusion is of the central committee death to romans. they brought us nothing, only bad thing. then somebody says, but by the mean, they did build roads. then another step, but they regulated irrigation. another said this, this, and then the conclusion of the meeting is the leader says, okay, here is the conclusion. if we abstract from irrigation, new roads, new hospitals, new school, if we take this away, what did romans bring to us? nothing. i want to apply this to both of you. what did you give here today? nothing. okay. okay, you posed excellent questions, quote, you disclosed so many things, i could go on. but apart from that, what did you give us here? nothing. so thanks thank you.
that when you make really radical acts you... don't follow an idea in all authentic revolutions. the first thing that gets sacrificed is the very idea we. you. the true revolutionary knows that. revolution at the end will eat him or herself also. so i think that b. that when you act out of despair, it's not that you have already an idea of how, no, what you should always take into account that in the second stage, that idea itself. we. b dismissed as something that still belongs to the old world and will also have to be sacrificed. that's why, for example, i don't. take too seriously all this democratic socialism stuff and so on. this is my big problem with people even. i love you, bernie sanders or my good friend Yanis Varoufakis, you know. they all talk like if we tell the truth, long time enough at some point people will awaken there will be a mass movement and so on. no. i think only a big catastrophe can maybe it's very risky. move them. that's why i love i love Covid. Covid. wasn't probably something wonderful? even mega-conservative politicians like Boris Johnson and Trump. they did measures which were de facto almost communist. didn't here in the united states, every family road get a check for 2000. so you know why this is important. i'm not blabbing. just let me finish. because up to that point... if you try to raise taxes for 2%, economists claim, oh no, this will ruin the system. we saw how many things it was possible to do against the market. against the logic of the market and the system didn't collapse. that's for me good news about Covid and i think that uh. we are approaching, we don't know what form, ecological, military, artificial intelligence crisis. i define myself as communist, but in the sense of war communism. let's prepare for an emergency state so that the right-wing fascists will not... take over then. thank you very much. no. now. i final vote i personally. both of you, i hope, saw that multi-title movie the life of brian. my god nowhere, it's an ironic retelling of. jesus christ's story where at a certain point you have some palestinian revolutionary movement against the romans. no. and they meet preparing revolution and somebody says, okay, our conclusion is of the central committee death to romans. they brought us nothing, only bad thing. then somebody says, but by the mean, they did build roads. then another step, but they regulated irrigation. another said this, this, and then the conclusion of the meeting is the leader says, okay, here is the conclusion. if we abstract from irrigation, new roads, new hospitals, new school, if we take this away, what did romans bring to us? nothing. i want to apply this to both of you. what did you give here today? nothing. okay. okay, you posed excellent questions, quote, you disclosed so many things, i could go on. but apart from that, what did you give us here? nothing. so thanks thank you.