Slavoj Žižek: ‘Trump is an obscenity, Elon Musk lives like a communist’ | Prospect Podcast
Interview · Prospect Magazine ·
2025-04-17 · 0:33:57 · 4,535 words
capitalismideologypsychoanalysissexuality-genderfascism-populismdemocracyrevolution-violencetechnology-ai-cyberspacegeopolitics-wareveryday-lifephilosophy-general
Žižek argues that the historical left achieved a 'false liberation' by commodifying sexuality and precariousizing labor, while modern 'woke' culture exhibits a hidden elitism that alienates ordinary people. He critiques cancel culture and MeToo for focusing on symbolic recognition rather than material conditions, advocating for a 'concrete universality' grounded in social welfare. He posits that the populist right has co-opted the left's desire for direct action, suggesting the left needs a charismatic, 'Trump-like' leader to reclaim authority and address existential crises like ecology through a state of emergency.
every located moment in this recording, click one to read it
The ideas in it 11
in the order they first come up; click a row for what he does with the idea here
The idea that the cultural revolutions of the past (sexual freedom, end of industrial alienation) resulted in worse outcomes (commodified sexuality, precarious work) rather than true emancipation.
A thought experiment illustrating how direct brain-to-machine communication eliminates the 'gap' or 'between the lines' necessary for flirting, thus ending sexuality as we know it.
The paradoxical nature of progressive movements (like cancel culture) that claim to fight for the oppressed but practice a form of oppression through exclusionary, patronizing linguistic policing.
The ironic value of retaining a colonizing label (like 'Indian') because it stands as a monument to the colonizer's error, revealing the absurdity of the colonizer's worldview.
Feminism focused on material conditions (childcare, healthcare, the biological reality of birth) rather than symbolic gestures or linguistic policing.
A Hegelian concept where a universal truth is embodied in a specific, concrete figure (e.g., the single unemployed mother as the embodiment of social decay) rather than remaining abstract.
The defining characteristic of the populist right, which abandons the hypocrisy of liberal norms to openly admit to obscenity and violence, contrasting with the left's adherence to procedural rules.
as “falsely liberated man”
A figure like Elon Musk who embodies a post-moral, obscene freedom that mimics communist abundance (Tesla, Mars, firing workers, promiscuity) but serves capitalist power.
as “state of emergency”
A political mechanism (borrowed from Agamben but repurposed here) that allows a leader to bypass democratic procedures to address urgent crises like ecology, which Žižek argues the left should adopt.
Žižek's provocative proposal that the left needs a charismatic, dictatorial-style leader (like Trump) to mobilize the people and break through democratic paralysis, rather than remaining 'subversive' within the system.
as “methodical pessimism”
A stance of expecting the worst so that any positive outcome is a 'miracle,' contrasting with optimism which leads to constant disappointment.
Stories he reaches for 3
Žižek cites Evita Perón's policy in Argentina granting two free holiday days for menstruation as an example of 'concrete feminism' that addresses material biological reality rather than symbolic recognition.
“every woman who was employed got two free days holiday when she has period.”
Žižek argues that direct brain-to-brain communication via Neuralink eliminates the 'gap' or uncertainty required for flirting, thereby ending sexuality.
“There is no flirting. We look at each other and get the signal I would like to do I don’t it’s the end of sexuality as we know it.”
Žižek cites Margaret Thatcher's success in courting Indian voters in the UK, noting that ethnic Indians were often wealthier than white British workers, showing how the right co-opts minorities.
“The average Indian Indian of ethnic origins in the UK the average Indian was already slightly more wealthy than the average white British guy.”
Works invoked 4
1984 book
Used to extract the concept of 'three mega blocks' (Oceania, Euro-Asia, East Asia) to describe current geopolitics.
Adolescence tv
A TV show discussed in the context of young men becoming isolated and radicalized.
Authority and Family book
A key text by Adorno and Horkheimer cited for its analysis of paternal authority and the dangers of peer pressure.
Pornhub other
Used in a vulgar example of 'methodical pessimism': 'sit at home watch Pornhub and do nothing' to illustrate the call to action.
People invoked 18
Cited as a figure of the populist right whose eligibility is supported by the left, illustrating the left's failure to confront the right.
Theodor W. Adorno positive
Cited alongside Horkheimer for their analysis in 'Authority and Family' regarding paternal authority and peer pressure.
Donald Trump positive
Žižek calls him 'piece of shit' and 'shithole of a country' personally, but intellectually argues the left needs a 'leftist Trump', a charismatic, dictatorial leader who can break democratic paralysis to address crises.
Elon Musk positive
Žižek dislikes Musk personally but uses him as the 'ultimate outcome of the left', a 'falsely liberated man' who embodies communist abundance without moral constraints.
George Orwell positive
Žižek states 'I don't like George Orwell' personally, but uses his concept of 'three mega blocks' from 1984 to analyze current geopolitics.
Cited by Adorno/Horkheimer as an 'obscene spoiled hysterical' adolescent figure rather than a father figure.
Cited alongside Musk as announcing the next step of brain-digital links.
Cited in the context of Trump's disrespectful treatment of him.
Eva Perón positive
Žižek respects Evita Perón, citing her policy of free period days as an example of 'concrete feminism' that addresses material biological reality.
Mentioned as the leader of the current Labour government in Britain.
Margaret Thatcher positive
Cited for her political insight into courting Indian voters in the UK, showing how the right co-opts minorities.
Barack Obama negative
Žižek liked Obama's 'Yes We Can' motto but criticizes him for becoming 'totally conformist' after election.
Max Horkheimer positive
Cited alongside Adorno for their Frankfurt School analysis of authority.
Cited as part of the 'Euro-Asia' block, with Trump speaking 'the same language' as him.
Mentioned as a totalitarian leader, with Žižek joking about 'Censor Stalin with a human face' at the end.
Karl Marx positive
Cited as the founder of class struggle, though Žižek argues we must expand his focus to include ecological exploitation.
Mentioned in the context of the Blair government's spending fights.
Cited as the UK Prime Minister who reduced social problems to the figure of the 'single unemployed mother.'
Transcript 36 turns
Slavoj Žižek
You know how Trump he didn’t mean Slovenia but like from a the shithole of a country what did Trump mean Ecuador I don’t know what you know. But now you know that we have now a big shithole of a country which is called United States you know this so okay I talked too much.
You know how Trump he didn’t mean Slovenia but like from a the shithole of a country what did Trump mean Ecuador I don’t know what you know. But now you know that we have now a big shithole of a country which is called United States you know this so okay I talked too much.
unknown
So we are delighted to be joined for this episode of the Prospect podcast by philosopher Slavoj Žižek. Slavoj it’s a pleasure to have you talking to us this morning.
So we are delighted to be joined for this episode of the Prospect podcast by philosopher Slavoj Žižek. Slavoj it’s a pleasure to have you talking to us this morning.
Slavoj Žižek
Believe it or not the pleasure is mine because I’m a male chauvinist one man three women perfect.
Believe it or not the pleasure is mine because I’m a male chauvinist one man three women perfect.
unknown
We can talk about that later. In your essay Zero Point which I’d like to start this conversation you argue that the left has reached a point where it must reinvent itself or perish. When did the left reach this point and how long has it been there?
We can talk about that later. In your essay Zero Point which I’d like to start this conversation you argue that the left has reached a point where it must reinvent itself or perish. When did the left reach this point and how long has it been there?
Slavoj Žižek
We always read history a little bit retroactively. From today’s stance if we do it like this now the my answer may shock you. I think retroactively we can say that the left reached this point at what appeared to many idiots its last glorious moment so-called revolution. But I think it was basically a false liberation. They wanted sexual freedom yes we get total commodification of sexuality. They wanted the end of this brutal industrial work where you just are one moment in a chain we get now precarious work which is much worse. They wanted the end of academic alienated up there university education what are we getting now? You can see in the United States and in the UK look at Kingston Dundee and so on universities massive reduction of universities with the excuse that who needs that? But that’s the whole charm of the university because not to lose time you know what’s the duty of critical intellectuals? Not to solve problems formulated by others. My old motto is that the way we perceive a problem can often be part of the problem. So we or me as a philosopher I’m not saying I know how to deal with ecological crisis and so on but what I am saying is that I can correct or point at the hidden biases of the way we formulate ecological crisis. You can see it as a pure technological problems you can have a reactionary position let’s return to some more organic small community way of life and so on and so on. This is what bothers those in power. They want higher education which serves concrete purposes like we have a crisis here tell us what to do. No sorry what interests me is what crisis do you think we have. Is your perception of the crisis correct or it’s part of the crisis? I got lost but you see at that point the so-called let’s call it culturalization of politics by this I mean instead of all these old good-fashioned terms which are now more actual than ever class struggle economic exploitation instead of analyzing expanding this for example it’s obvious today that ruining environment where some indigenous people live is also a form of exploitation. Marx didn’t focus on this but you see we have to do this critical work. So today I claim precisely philosophy is more needed than ever to stop if you’re stupid enough to believe that I will stop but I will. Just one point let’s take artificial intelligence. Not just it’s not enough to say oh will it control us we will control it. The elementary question is this one. Again Zuckerberg and Musk announced next step iPhones and so on are out we will have a direct link between our brain and digital machines. What does it mean for our identity as subjects? Let me in my style go directly to a vulgar level but it’s crucial here. Let’s say that I’m not I don’t want to be accused of male chauvinism so I will not address anyone concretely. Let’s say that I’m flirting with one of you. Isn’t the whole point of flirting that it’s between the lines I’m softly trying you we don’t know? Imagine Neuralink where our brains directly communicate. There is no flirting. We look at each other and get the signal I would like to do I don’t it’s the end of sexuality as we know it and so on. All these basic questions are philosophical questions.
We always read history a little bit retroactively. From today’s stance if we do it like this now the my answer may shock you. I think retroactively we can say that the left reached this point at what appeared to many idiots its last glorious moment so-called revolution. But I think it was basically a false liberation. They wanted sexual freedom yes we get total commodification of sexuality. They wanted the end of this brutal industrial work where you just are one moment in a chain we get now precarious work which is much worse. They wanted the end of academic alienated up there university education what are we getting now? You can see in the United States and in the UK look at Kingston Dundee and so on universities massive reduction of universities with the excuse that who needs that? But that’s the whole charm of the university because not to lose time you know what’s the duty of critical intellectuals? Not to solve problems formulated by others. My old motto is that the way we perceive a problem can often be part of the problem. So we or me as a philosopher I’m not saying I know how to deal with ecological crisis and so on but what I am saying is that I can correct or point at the hidden biases of the way we formulate ecological crisis. You can see it as a pure technological problems you can have a reactionary position let’s return to some more organic small community way of life and so on and so on. This is what bothers those in power. They want higher education which serves concrete purposes like we have a crisis here tell us what to do. No sorry what interests me is what crisis do you think we have. Is your perception of the crisis correct or it’s part of the crisis? I got lost but you see at that point the so-called let’s call it culturalization of politics by this I mean instead of all these old good-fashioned terms which are now more actual than ever class struggle economic exploitation instead of analyzing expanding this for example it’s obvious today that ruining environment where some indigenous people live is also a form of exploitation. Marx didn’t focus on this but you see we have to do this critical work. So today I claim precisely philosophy is more needed than ever to stop if you’re stupid enough to believe that I will stop but I will. Just one point let’s take artificial intelligence. Not just it’s not enough to say oh will it control us we will control it. The elementary question is this one. Again Zuckerberg and Musk announced next step iPhones and so on are out we will have a direct link between our brain and digital machines. What does it mean for our identity as subjects? Let me in my style go directly to a vulgar level but it’s crucial here. Let’s say that I’m not I don’t want to be accused of male chauvinism so I will not address anyone concretely. Let’s say that I’m flirting with one of you. Isn’t the whole point of flirting that it’s between the lines I’m softly trying you we don’t know? Imagine Neuralink where our brains directly communicate. There is no flirting. We look at each other and get the signal I would like to do I don’t it’s the end of sexuality as we know it and so on. All these basic questions are philosophical questions.
unknown
So I want to go back a second to you said the kind of the left died back in
So I want to go back a second to you said the kind of the left died back in
Slavoj Žižek
Without knowing it it appeared yeah yeah.
Without knowing it it appeared yeah yeah.
unknown
And now you know we’re looking at obviously Trump winning in the US sort of symbolizing this this victory of of a global populist right. Are we are we seeing a continued slow death of the left in what’s happened in in America or is this just kind of the aftermath of that death from many years ago?
And now you know we’re looking at obviously Trump winning in the US sort of symbolizing this this victory of of a global populist right. Are we are we seeing a continued slow death of the left in what’s happened in in America or is this just kind of the aftermath of that death from many years ago?
Slavoj Žižek
It’s both at the same time. Because I think that the move towards I’m afraid to use any terms because they are too narrow but what we vaguely call the whole field of woke culture cancel culture however we call it I I must emphasize this I sympathize absolutely with the goals of this. But I think the way they practice it there is a hidden elitism. In you know this is for me the most refined form of oppression. You fight for the right cause but the very way you fight for it undermines the cause. For example cancel culture the idea is what totally acceptable for me of course to fight for diversity and inclusion. But look at concrete cases. All they are basically doing is excluding those who don’t accept their notion of inclusion of diversity and so on and so on. So why hidden why hidden elitism? Why do you call it hidden? Because for me it’s absolutely clear that and this is the source of the strength of Trump that many of so-called I am among them I don’t mean it in a patronizing way many of so-called ordinary people while in principle they’re not against but they have a problem with may I put it in this way the style of it how it is done. And they are right to feel elitism with it because I think that to a large extent this cancel culture and so on it’s not truly the underprivileged who talk who complain it’s the white liberals who talk
It’s both at the same time. Because I think that the move towards I’m afraid to use any terms because they are too narrow but what we vaguely call the whole field of woke culture cancel culture however we call it I I must emphasize this I sympathize absolutely with the goals of this. But I think the way they practice it there is a hidden elitism. In you know this is for me the most refined form of oppression. You fight for the right cause but the very way you fight for it undermines the cause. For example cancel culture the idea is what totally acceptable for me of course to fight for diversity and inclusion. But look at concrete cases. All they are basically doing is excluding those who don’t accept their notion of inclusion of diversity and so on and so on. So why hidden why hidden elitism? Why do you call it hidden? Because for me it’s absolutely clear that and this is the source of the strength of Trump that many of so-called I am among them I don’t mean it in a patronizing way many of so-called ordinary people while in principle they’re not against but they have a problem with may I put it in this way the style of it how it is done. And they are right to feel elitism with it because I think that to a large extent this cancel culture and so on it’s not truly the underprivileged who talk who complain it’s the white liberals who talk
unknown
for them and I witnessed quite at least times in the US where a true underprivileged guy said something and the upper middle class liberal immediately crushed on him no you are using a language
for them and I witnessed quite at least times in the US where a true underprivileged guy said something and the upper middle class liberal immediately crushed on him no you are using a language
Slavoj Žižek
which really it’s against your own interest and so on. Sorry if I repeat an old joke of mine but it’s perfect. years ago in Missoula Montana I was at a big debate where there was a Native American and he simply referred to himself as Indian. Immediately a white liberal attacked him no no this is colonizing term and so on and the Native so-called American gave a wonderful answer. He said Native American sorry the opposite of nature is culture and you are then cultured Americans. Then he said I definitely prefer to be called Indian because at least my name is a monument to white man’s stupidity who thought they are in India. You know what I mean don’t underestimate or so-called ordinary people or other races. They have an incredible sense of irony. They immediately detect when you are apparently brutal towards them but at the same time you are brutal in a sense of deep solidarity. How do we feel close? This is my hypothesis it doesn’t work in all the cases but in many. You must exchange small potential obscenity embar... this means we are really close it’s not this respectful distance. Also I don’t like this focus on how you are called and so on. I consider myself sorry if you don’t agree with me a crazy radical feminist. But for me we should never forget feminism is not just of course it is also this subtle patronizing gesture feminism to be a woman is a very material thing. Not only material in the sense of how you interact but in a much more brutal way. I’m sorry but to be a woman means birth. To be vulgar but friendly in a feminist way vulgar. A man just does boom boom and goes to sleep. A woman has to deal with all of it period birth all the troubles and so on. For example although she was half fascist you know that here I respect Evita Perón in She she succeeded so that in Argentina the first time in the world history every woman who was employed got two free days holiday when she has period. So you see this is for me concrete feminism. Look at women look at all the subtle ways how they are exploited and so on. That’s what I am missing in all these debates you know did you address her correctly and so on and so on. Sure we might come back a bit to kind of the politics of the left where lots of these discussions are happening but I’d love to pick up a little bit on on feminism. In the past you’ve you’ve criticized MeToo feminism. This was a movement that galvanized quite a lot of the left and the center in a way that other movements haven’t in recent years. Can you talk a bit more about why despite this you felt that it wasn’t the right kind of way forward for the left? Because you know as a Hegelian I believe in concrete universality. Don’t be afraid of this. Concrete universality means for me something very really concrete. Do you remember I hope you don’t it wasn’t a glorious time before Blair government between Thatcher and Blair it was John Major. And at that point when they began to fight against this spending the public money for I don’t know immigrant single mothers a certain image emerged as the prototype typical image. Ultimately all the problems and it’s already doubtful if you should accept them as a problem well reduced to a figure of single unemployed mother. We have crime among youth yes too many single mothers no paternal authority and so on somehow they reduced all of it we spend too much money yes because single mothers don’t work. So she emerged in the Hegelian sense as a concrete universality a particular figure which for of course the right-wingers embodied all that was wrong with social democratic welfare welfare state whatever you call it. I’m claiming that there is something I followed closely the debates I’m claiming that something similar is happened with MeToo. Did you notice how there was a concrete scene it was basically couples flirting meeting in a pub or somewhere and man in an all too violent way trying to seduce the woman with different forms of exploitation pressure and so on. Imagine I
which really it’s against your own interest and so on. Sorry if I repeat an old joke of mine but it’s perfect. years ago in Missoula Montana I was at a big debate where there was a Native American and he simply referred to himself as Indian. Immediately a white liberal attacked him no no this is colonizing term and so on and the Native so-called American gave a wonderful answer. He said Native American sorry the opposite of nature is culture and you are then cultured Americans. Then he said I definitely prefer to be called Indian because at least my name is a monument to white man’s stupidity who thought they are in India. You know what I mean don’t underestimate or so-called ordinary people or other races. They have an incredible sense of irony. They immediately detect when you are apparently brutal towards them but at the same time you are brutal in a sense of deep solidarity. How do we feel close? This is my hypothesis it doesn’t work in all the cases but in many. You must exchange small potential obscenity embar... this means we are really close it’s not this respectful distance. Also I don’t like this focus on how you are called and so on. I consider myself sorry if you don’t agree with me a crazy radical feminist. But for me we should never forget feminism is not just of course it is also this subtle patronizing gesture feminism to be a woman is a very material thing. Not only material in the sense of how you interact but in a much more brutal way. I’m sorry but to be a woman means birth. To be vulgar but friendly in a feminist way vulgar. A man just does boom boom and goes to sleep. A woman has to deal with all of it period birth all the troubles and so on. For example although she was half fascist you know that here I respect Evita Perón in She she succeeded so that in Argentina the first time in the world history every woman who was employed got two free days holiday when she has period. So you see this is for me concrete feminism. Look at women look at all the subtle ways how they are exploited and so on. That’s what I am missing in all these debates you know did you address her correctly and so on and so on. Sure we might come back a bit to kind of the politics of the left where lots of these discussions are happening but I’d love to pick up a little bit on on feminism. In the past you’ve you’ve criticized MeToo feminism. This was a movement that galvanized quite a lot of the left and the center in a way that other movements haven’t in recent years. Can you talk a bit more about why despite this you felt that it wasn’t the right kind of way forward for the left? Because you know as a Hegelian I believe in concrete universality. Don’t be afraid of this. Concrete universality means for me something very really concrete. Do you remember I hope you don’t it wasn’t a glorious time before Blair government between Thatcher and Blair it was John Major. And at that point when they began to fight against this spending the public money for I don’t know immigrant single mothers a certain image emerged as the prototype typical image. Ultimately all the problems and it’s already doubtful if you should accept them as a problem well reduced to a figure of single unemployed mother. We have crime among youth yes too many single mothers no paternal authority and so on somehow they reduced all of it we spend too much money yes because single mothers don’t work. So she emerged in the Hegelian sense as a concrete universality a particular figure which for of course the right-wingers embodied all that was wrong with social democratic welfare welfare state whatever you call it. I’m claiming that there is something I followed closely the debates I’m claiming that something similar is happened with MeToo. Did you notice how there was a concrete scene it was basically couples flirting meeting in a pub or somewhere and man in an all too violent way trying to seduce the woman with different forms of exploitation pressure and so on. Imagine I
unknown
will be very brutal. Imagine a woman in her early mid-30s. She doesn’t have a serious job she has two children and in the eyes of male chauvinists and so on she is gradually losing sexual attraction. What should she do? It’s not that the husband even beats her. The husband just you know is losing interest in her she has no way because of the children or
will be very brutal. Imagine a woman in her early mid-30s. She doesn’t have a serious job she has two children and in the eyes of male chauvinists and so on she is gradually losing sexual attraction. What should she do? It’s not that the husband even beats her. The husband just you know is losing interest in her she has no way because of the children or
Slavoj Žižek
whatever to get a job of her
whatever to get a job of her
unknown
own what can she expect from her life? Isn’t this much stronger
own what can she expect from her life? Isn’t this much stronger
Slavoj Žižek
despair? So for me the beginning of feminism is childcare education all that my God here I am I hope not a vulgar materialist Marxist but a materialist you know. Freedom means what a whole set of things it’s not just I can call you ve they whatever you want. Freedom means I should have first these are crucial things for me at least a promise of it’s always imperfect but that somehow it works free healthcare free education and so on and so on. Without this freedom means nothing. Here I remain a socialist. Yes I’m not a Stalinist who says bourgeois freedoms are just formal freedoms. Yeah they are formal freedoms. But that’s why what we should fight for is to create material conditions by material I don’t mean stuff I mean social institutional and so on conditions where these words I am free blah blah blah have meaning. You’re in your 70s now. I hate you for mentioning this. I am psychologically a woman you never ask a woman how old she is. I wasn’t asking I was I was I was saying I was commenting on it you are in your 70s. Even more brutal I love you perfect okay. And you’ve got two boys two grown-up children now. Um and I wondered you know you’re talking about yourself there as a as a radical feminist and I wondered and you talked there also about the kind of material conditions and childcare and all these things. As a father how has it in any way impacted in the way you raise your boys to be men in this world? There’s been a lot of discussion in the UK but also in lots of kind of Western countries lately about raising young men and about the kind of... You mean adolescence. Well yes so partly around this this TV show Adolescence which I’d love to know your thoughts on. But more generally you know we talk we’ve been talking recently about young men becoming isolated becoming radicalized and being drawn into these like right-wing you know sometimes kind of violent networks. What do you make of this as a trend? And also I mean what did you make of Adolescence as a kind of representation of that story? Now I will say a couple of things which will sound horrible to some people. It’s not necessarily a father. It can also an authoritarian mother to play this role. But the lesson is that authority within the family is needed. You know in what sense? Because if Adorno Horkheimer Frankfurt School saw this very clearly in late 1930s when they said the new the new totalitarian leaders Stalin or for them especially Hitler whatever Hitler is he he was not a figure of a father. He was more a kind of a obscene spoiled hysterical he was maybe an adolescent who came to power. So Adorno saw very clearly and Horkheimer they wrote a key text Authority and Family where they point out that yeah paternal oppression and so on. But at the same time a good proper paternal authority gives you something to rely on and to defend yourself from the peer community whose pressure can be much more destructive on you. You know the worst thing about adolescent guys is to follow the peer pressure of their colleagues and so on and so on. And especially today I think look whatever Trump is he is not a respectful paternal
despair? So for me the beginning of feminism is childcare education all that my God here I am I hope not a vulgar materialist Marxist but a materialist you know. Freedom means what a whole set of things it’s not just I can call you ve they whatever you want. Freedom means I should have first these are crucial things for me at least a promise of it’s always imperfect but that somehow it works free healthcare free education and so on and so on. Without this freedom means nothing. Here I remain a socialist. Yes I’m not a Stalinist who says bourgeois freedoms are just formal freedoms. Yeah they are formal freedoms. But that’s why what we should fight for is to create material conditions by material I don’t mean stuff I mean social institutional and so on conditions where these words I am free blah blah blah have meaning. You’re in your 70s now. I hate you for mentioning this. I am psychologically a woman you never ask a woman how old she is. I wasn’t asking I was I was I was saying I was commenting on it you are in your 70s. Even more brutal I love you perfect okay. And you’ve got two boys two grown-up children now. Um and I wondered you know you’re talking about yourself there as a as a radical feminist and I wondered and you talked there also about the kind of material conditions and childcare and all these things. As a father how has it in any way impacted in the way you raise your boys to be men in this world? There’s been a lot of discussion in the UK but also in lots of kind of Western countries lately about raising young men and about the kind of... You mean adolescence. Well yes so partly around this this TV show Adolescence which I’d love to know your thoughts on. But more generally you know we talk we’ve been talking recently about young men becoming isolated becoming radicalized and being drawn into these like right-wing you know sometimes kind of violent networks. What do you make of this as a trend? And also I mean what did you make of Adolescence as a kind of representation of that story? Now I will say a couple of things which will sound horrible to some people. It’s not necessarily a father. It can also an authoritarian mother to play this role. But the lesson is that authority within the family is needed. You know in what sense? Because if Adorno Horkheimer Frankfurt School saw this very clearly in late 1930s when they said the new the new totalitarian leaders Stalin or for them especially Hitler whatever Hitler is he he was not a figure of a father. He was more a kind of a obscene spoiled hysterical he was maybe an adolescent who came to power. So Adorno saw very clearly and Horkheimer they wrote a key text Authority and Family where they point out that yeah paternal oppression and so on. But at the same time a good proper paternal authority gives you something to rely on and to defend yourself from the peer community whose pressure can be much more destructive on you. You know the worst thing about adolescent guys is to follow the peer pressure of their colleagues and so on and so on. And especially today I think look whatever Trump is he is not a respectful paternal
unknown
figure. That’s
figure. That’s
Slavoj Žižek
why I had to laugh you remember that when Vance Zelensky Trump infamous talk when they
why I had to laugh you remember that when Vance Zelensky Trump infamous talk when they
unknown
complained you
complained you
Slavoj Žižek
treat us to Zelensky disrespectfully. I’m sorry. Trump
treat us to Zelensky disrespectfully. I’m sorry. Trump
unknown
who called Trudeau systematically governor to humiliate him not Prime Minister. Trump who you know all you remember all his vulgarities to like you can grab women by their p and so on. Who is he to even mention respect who who did everything possible and I think I’m becoming a kind of a I like to define myself as communist moderate conserv a
who called Trudeau systematically governor to humiliate him not Prime Minister. Trump who you know all you remember all his vulgarities to like you can grab women by their p and so on. Who is he to even mention respect who who did everything possible and I think I’m becoming a kind of a I like to define myself as communist moderate conserv a
unknown
moderate conservative communist. Because I think that okay my old story but it’s important to mention it. Compare Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump. As a person Trump is a
moderate conservative communist. Because I think that okay my old story but it’s important to mention it. Compare Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump. As a person Trump is a
Slavoj Žižek
ridiculous postmodern obscenity no respect. Bernie Sanders as
ridiculous postmodern obscenity no respect. Bernie Sanders as
unknown
a person I know I met him once on the street in Burlington Vermont he is in the best sense not conservative in the sense of modest dignity respect and so on. And I think that the left should break with this mega stupidity you know of this is another legacy of that to say that subversiveness is good. Subvert look do this use dirty words and so on. No sorry
a person I know I met him once on the street in Burlington Vermont he is in the best sense not conservative in the sense of modest dignity respect and so on. And I think that the left should break with this mega stupidity you know of this is another legacy of that to say that subversiveness is good. Subvert look do this use dirty words and so on. No sorry
Slavoj Žižek
the new populist right has beaten us by far on this. We the left to have a chance should precisely address ordinary people with the message not be subversive and so on but discover shame respect and shame. That should be it’s surprising you know this basic sense of respect don’t hurt others and so on. My idea is even that maybe we should openly appropriate the old term of moral majority. Sorry whatever the populist right is it’s not moral majority. It’s open decadence and I see this not just as a at a personal level but maybe your view here is different we can debate. Israel-Gaza. But what horrifies me is listen I have no illusions other countries Arabs they are all torturing prisoners and so on. But with Israel now what shocks me is how open this became. You remember I I had a couple of sleepless nights because you know it was discovered that in a prison for Hamas members out of Jerusalem they were doing horrible things they were putting big iron rods with needles in it and so on up their ass couple of them died of bleeding and they didn’t deny it. They no these are subhuman we can do it. I think better hypocrisy than this open admission of obscenity. And we are approaching a world where simply obscenity reigns directly. Yeah. Something that struck me in recent weeks is that when you see the populist right acting in a way as you say without shame bold you know boldly breaking what the rest of us maybe thought of as as rules or norms or just acceptable ways of behaving. We see often the left struggling to kind of criticize them. I’m thinking less of the horrors of of Gaza which you’ve mentioned but also in you know in France we have Marine Le Pen leader of a populist right party. And not only has the right kind of argued that she should be allowed to run in the next potential election when the law says that actually she shouldn’t but also figures on the left they also think that she should be able to run. The left I think remains stuck to model and they don’t see that they were beaten by the right. Look let me give you an example which if there is today a guy who is pure ultimate outcome of the left it’s sorry to tell you Elon Musk. He respects no rules. He has this for some leftists confused life you know makes obscene gestures and almost lives like a communist you know in the morning he does Tesla then he makes plans to go to Mars then he fires thousand people there then he had or children everybody with different woman and so on. He is this type of falsely liberated man. I think figure like Musk to become as powerful as he is is only possible in the aftermath of the He condenses everything that was wrong about And the left they at some level still identify as we did I was there I’m so old in You know power is authoritarian it is but in the sense of dignity and if you shout at them do obscene gestures whatever there is something subversive in it. No it’s not. And I repeat always this point the ultimate proof for me was the 6th of January when was it five six years ago. You remember when popular crowd invaded Congress. My friends leftists were crying. They said where do we live. We the people should be doing this. This is their dream a crowd penetrating seat of power. I told them no sorry the new right took this over from us. We started this conversation Slavoj by talking about your about Zero Point and this kind of void on the left the the perishing of the left it has to reinvent itself. We’re recording this we’re in Britain where we have a Labour government led
the new populist right has beaten us by far on this. We the left to have a chance should precisely address ordinary people with the message not be subversive and so on but discover shame respect and shame. That should be it’s surprising you know this basic sense of respect don’t hurt others and so on. My idea is even that maybe we should openly appropriate the old term of moral majority. Sorry whatever the populist right is it’s not moral majority. It’s open decadence and I see this not just as a at a personal level but maybe your view here is different we can debate. Israel-Gaza. But what horrifies me is listen I have no illusions other countries Arabs they are all torturing prisoners and so on. But with Israel now what shocks me is how open this became. You remember I I had a couple of sleepless nights because you know it was discovered that in a prison for Hamas members out of Jerusalem they were doing horrible things they were putting big iron rods with needles in it and so on up their ass couple of them died of bleeding and they didn’t deny it. They no these are subhuman we can do it. I think better hypocrisy than this open admission of obscenity. And we are approaching a world where simply obscenity reigns directly. Yeah. Something that struck me in recent weeks is that when you see the populist right acting in a way as you say without shame bold you know boldly breaking what the rest of us maybe thought of as as rules or norms or just acceptable ways of behaving. We see often the left struggling to kind of criticize them. I’m thinking less of the horrors of of Gaza which you’ve mentioned but also in you know in France we have Marine Le Pen leader of a populist right party. And not only has the right kind of argued that she should be allowed to run in the next potential election when the law says that actually she shouldn’t but also figures on the left they also think that she should be able to run. The left I think remains stuck to model and they don’t see that they were beaten by the right. Look let me give you an example which if there is today a guy who is pure ultimate outcome of the left it’s sorry to tell you Elon Musk. He respects no rules. He has this for some leftists confused life you know makes obscene gestures and almost lives like a communist you know in the morning he does Tesla then he makes plans to go to Mars then he fires thousand people there then he had or children everybody with different woman and so on. He is this type of falsely liberated man. I think figure like Musk to become as powerful as he is is only possible in the aftermath of the He condenses everything that was wrong about And the left they at some level still identify as we did I was there I’m so old in You know power is authoritarian it is but in the sense of dignity and if you shout at them do obscene gestures whatever there is something subversive in it. No it’s not. And I repeat always this point the ultimate proof for me was the 6th of January when was it five six years ago. You remember when popular crowd invaded Congress. My friends leftists were crying. They said where do we live. We the people should be doing this. This is their dream a crowd penetrating seat of power. I told them no sorry the new right took this over from us. We started this conversation Slavoj by talking about your about Zero Point and this kind of void on the left the the perishing of the left it has to reinvent itself. We’re recording this we’re in Britain where we have a Labour government led
unknown
by Keir Starmer. We wondered what you made of the Labour left here and the left in Britain in general. Is it is there a void is the void very visible here? The paradox of the UK is now I will be very brutal. You have one big moderate certain right party it’s called Labour Party. And they might not like to hear that. I know and then you have this leftovers of a more populist vulgar right who noticed this it’s important of course it’s a fake how they use women and other races. But as some people are telling me look at the UK today if you want extreme right in power you have a black man a black man or woman woman Indian and so on. If you want moderate right Labour Party you have
by Keir Starmer. We wondered what you made of the Labour left here and the left in Britain in general. Is it is there a void is the void very visible here? The paradox of the UK is now I will be very brutal. You have one big moderate certain right party it’s called Labour Party. And they might not like to hear that. I know and then you have this leftovers of a more populist vulgar right who noticed this it’s important of course it’s a fake how they use women and other races. But as some people are telling me look at the UK today if you want extreme right in power you have a black man a black man or woman woman Indian and so on. If you want moderate right Labour Party you have
unknown
mostly I
mostly I
Slavoj Žižek
know Rachel Reeves and so on mostly white men. You know don’t underestimate the new right radical right how they have rediscovered minorities and so on. Minorities are not automatically on the left side. For example I read a wonderful analysis how Democrats in the United States were depressed when they discovered that the majority even of immigrants those who did gain right to vote voted Trump. They didn’t get a basic fact. Most of the immigrants believe in the United States they want to get rich there. They didn’t come there to make a revolution. You know what I mean. Conservative. They are absolutely conservative. And you know who the first got this in the UK? Margaret Thatcher. Her overture to Indians she noticed something that the Labour didn’t take into account. The average Indian Indian of ethnic origins in the UK the average Indian was already slightly more wealthy than the average white British guy. No no the cards are really changing. We are entering I think a new I’m quite brutal open here a new post post-democratic era. And so my dream is not people will awaken blah blah blah. Now I will shock you. I think the left needs its own Trump. By Trump he is piece of shit don’t misunderstand me but what I mean what you usually people reproach him for is this dictatorial style you know
know Rachel Reeves and so on mostly white men. You know don’t underestimate the new right radical right how they have rediscovered minorities and so on. Minorities are not automatically on the left side. For example I read a wonderful analysis how Democrats in the United States were depressed when they discovered that the majority even of immigrants those who did gain right to vote voted Trump. They didn’t get a basic fact. Most of the immigrants believe in the United States they want to get rich there. They didn’t come there to make a revolution. You know what I mean. Conservative. They are absolutely conservative. And you know who the first got this in the UK? Margaret Thatcher. Her overture to Indians she noticed something that the Labour didn’t take into account. The average Indian Indian of ethnic origins in the UK the average Indian was already slightly more wealthy than the average white British guy. No no the cards are really changing. We are entering I think a new I’m quite brutal open here a new post post-democratic era. And so my dream is not people will awaken blah blah blah. Now I will shock you. I think the left needs its own Trump. By Trump he is piece of shit don’t misunderstand me but what I mean what you usually people reproach him for is this dictatorial style you know
unknown
he ignores even his own party blah blah blah. But this is needed today. When was it already needed? Many people notice this. It’s not the same content of course but sorry Franklin Delano Roosevelt was also acting like that. Big authoritarian figure direct contact with people. I think our liberal democracy is so not corrupted in this immediate sense but inefficient and so on that it may sound crazy for a leftist but we do need
he ignores even his own party blah blah blah. But this is needed today. When was it already needed? Many people notice this. It’s not the same content of course but sorry Franklin Delano Roosevelt was also acting like that. Big authoritarian figure direct contact with people. I think our liberal democracy is so not corrupted in this immediate sense but inefficient and so on that it may sound crazy for a leftist but we do need
Slavoj Žižek
a charismatic leader which will be able somehow to mobilize the people. Just just a quick kind of follow-up on that. Um what do you you said sort of dictatorial style. What do you what do you mean what what is with the acceptable limits for you for you? I mean what Trump did. Dictatorial style means you begin by proclaiming state of emergency where I agree with Trump just he didn’t proclaim it for the right domains. First we should proclaim state of emergency for ecology and so on you know. And this then allows you to pass measures through how do you call this presidential orders or whatever Trump is doing all the time this wherever he can. I have nothing against this form. I think we are today in such a complex situation which is complex but at the same time urgent. Acts are demanded and I see no other way. I’m not afraid oh you want a leftist fascist. No it works. All I will even tell you look at all successful left. There always was a charismatic leader even if they fail. For example what I like in Obama but once he got elected he was totally conformist. You know I liked his motto yes we can. That’s what a true leader tells you. Not I know better than you what you want but I want to wake you up. My message to you is you can do more than you think that you can do. The situation is not totally predetermined and so on. So how how would you hold a a leftist version of Trump accountable if you want someone who can you know act with... I’m not there are mechanisms I’m not for pure dictatorial power you know. For me there are still enough mechanisms even in the United States you cannot simply take so-called dictatorial power take over but look what is to be done now urgently. And Europe is at its low point nobody confronts it. I don’t like George Orwell I must say I’m sorry I don’t like George Orwell. But in what interests me now is you know what’s the situation that he describes? Three mega blocks. Oceania United States Euro-Asia and East Asia. Aren’t we there today? United States Russia wants to be Euro-Asia and China
a charismatic leader which will be able somehow to mobilize the people. Just just a quick kind of follow-up on that. Um what do you you said sort of dictatorial style. What do you what do you mean what what is with the acceptable limits for you for you? I mean what Trump did. Dictatorial style means you begin by proclaiming state of emergency where I agree with Trump just he didn’t proclaim it for the right domains. First we should proclaim state of emergency for ecology and so on you know. And this then allows you to pass measures through how do you call this presidential orders or whatever Trump is doing all the time this wherever he can. I have nothing against this form. I think we are today in such a complex situation which is complex but at the same time urgent. Acts are demanded and I see no other way. I’m not afraid oh you want a leftist fascist. No it works. All I will even tell you look at all successful left. There always was a charismatic leader even if they fail. For example what I like in Obama but once he got elected he was totally conformist. You know I liked his motto yes we can. That’s what a true leader tells you. Not I know better than you what you want but I want to wake you up. My message to you is you can do more than you think that you can do. The situation is not totally predetermined and so on. So how how would you hold a a leftist version of Trump accountable if you want someone who can you know act with... I’m not there are mechanisms I’m not for pure dictatorial power you know. For me there are still enough mechanisms even in the United States you cannot simply take so-called dictatorial power take over but look what is to be done now urgently. And Europe is at its low point nobody confronts it. I don’t like George Orwell I must say I’m sorry I don’t like George Orwell. But in what interests me now is you know what’s the situation that he describes? Three mega blocks. Oceania United States Euro-Asia and East Asia. Aren’t we there today? United States Russia wants to be Euro-Asia and China
unknown
East Asia. And this is where we are going today. That’s
East Asia. And this is where we are going today. That’s
Slavoj Žižek
why Trump is so friendly with Putin. They speak the same language. Trump remember Putin supported Trump’s claim to Greenland and so on. The idea is we divide the world each of us has its own domain around. Europe is caught in between. I have one final question for you. Yeah okay. If that’s okay. You just outlined a very I can use it’s a cliché to say it but dystopian view of the world that we’re living in now. Is there anything that makes you feel optimistic in any way about anything about any of this? I can only give you my here and there there are miracles. That’s why I prefer to be a pessimist. If you are a pessimist then from time to time something nice happens and you are glad. If you are an optimist you are all the time disappointed. So no I think we should be methodically pessimist but and that’s the paradox I don’t have time to explain it but in
why Trump is so friendly with Putin. They speak the same language. Trump remember Putin supported Trump’s claim to Greenland and so on. The idea is we divide the world each of us has its own domain around. Europe is caught in between. I have one final question for you. Yeah okay. If that’s okay. You just outlined a very I can use it’s a cliché to say it but dystopian view of the world that we’re living in now. Is there anything that makes you feel optimistic in any way about anything about any of this? I can only give you my here and there there are miracles. That’s why I prefer to be a pessimist. If you are a pessimist then from time to time something nice happens and you are glad. If you are an optimist you are all the time disappointed. So no I think we should be methodically pessimist but and that’s the paradox I don’t have time to explain it but in
unknown
my books that pessimism for me is not an attitude of sorry for the
my books that pessimism for me is not an attitude of sorry for the
Slavoj Žižek
vulgarity that’s my style let’s sit at home watch Pornhub and do nothing. No pessimism means the strongest possible call to
vulgarity that’s my style let’s sit at home watch Pornhub and do nothing. No pessimism means the strongest possible call to
unknown
mobilization. Thank you
mobilization. Thank you
Slavoj Žižek
so much Slavoj. Thank you so much for joining us. Don’t forget about censor censor be Stalin with a human face. Thanks very much it was a pleasure. Thank you so much likewise. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.
so much Slavoj. Thank you so much for joining us. Don’t forget about censor censor be Stalin with a human face. Thanks very much it was a pleasure. Thank you so much likewise. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.
unknown
This interview was from an episode of the Prospect podcast. To listen to the episode in full including further discussion and our weekly banger and dud section click the link in the description below. And to read more of Prospect's award-winning journalism head to prospectmagazine.co.uk.
This interview was from an episode of the Prospect podcast. To listen to the episode in full including further discussion and our weekly banger and dud section click the link in the description below. And to read more of Prospect's award-winning journalism head to prospectmagazine.co.uk.