Slavoj Žižek Visits Riot Studio to Discuss Faith, AI, Christianity, Love, and What Can Save Us
Interview · Pussy Riot ·
published 2025-11-05 · 1:10:25 · 9,262 words
with Nadya Tolokonnikova
the date above is when the video was uploaded, no recording date was found
ideologypsychoanalysishegel-dialecticsreligion-theologycommunism-socialismcinema-art-culturesubjectivitygeopolitics-wartechnology-ai-cyberspaceecology-climateliberalism-political-correctnessrevolution-violenceeveryday-lifephilosophy-general
Žižek discusses the nature of political and psychoanalytic acts, using the Wolfman case and the Bernie Sanders icon to illustrate the necessity of faith and symbolic gestures over rational calculation. He explores the distinction between visual icons and musical pathos, arguing for the 'void' of the icon, and concludes with a defense of engaged, partisan truth against neutral objectivity, citing Lacan, Hegel, and early Soviet history. Žižek argues for an 'irrational fidelity' and 'act of faith' in politics and ecology, contrasting rational despair with necessary engagement. He critiques liberal multiculturalism's hypocrisy regarding identity and universality, using anecdotes about Native Americans and the 'Jewish synagogue' joke. He contrasts Bernie Sanders with Trump, praises the 'passive experience' of art against hyperactivity, and discusses the combined threats of AI, ecology, and war, invoking Walter Benjamin's 'mystical solidarity' with the past.
every located moment in this recording, click one to read it
The ideas in it 18
in the order they first come up; click a row for what he does with the idea here
An ethical/political decision made despite objective knowledge of failure or catastrophe, acting as if the outcome were possible.
A metaphor for a brief, transactional interaction lacking deep engagement, contrasted with 'hate fuck' or 'mercy fuck'.
Sexual intercourse performed out of sympathy or despair rather than enjoyment, used as an analogy for psychoanalytic payment structures.
as “fantasy spaces”
Spaces like the toilet bowl where horrors and nightmares emerge, serving as a site for the emergence of the Real.
A symbolic figure (like Bernie Sanders) that cannot be erased or fully specified, serving as a necessary focal point for political desire beyond conscious rationality.
The emotional quality of icons, which lack the pathetic pathos of music but offer a pure, autonomous sacred dimension.
A formal element in art (like Eisenstein's editing) that undermines or exceeds the intended official content, revealing the truth of the medium.
as “objects which are just their own excess”
A concept derived from quantum physics (photons) applied to aesthetics, suggesting that the essence of an object lies in its dynamic excess rather than its static inertia.
as “atheist believers”
Individuals who maintain the structure of belief (like Christianity) while stripping it of its supernatural content, focusing on the ethical act.
A Lacanian example where the truth of the symptom (jealousy) is independent of the factual reality (the wife's fidelity), focusing on the subject's need for the delusion.
A persistent, seemingly irrational commitment to a cause or land (e.g., Palestinians returning to ruins) that defies rational calculation of success.
A philosophical stance where 'nothing' (the lack of a fixed identity) allows for a universal position, contrasting with the particularist claims of identity politics.
Truth that is only accessible from an engaged, partisan position of solidarity with the suffering, rather than a neutral, objective standpoint.
A Walter Benjamin concept referring to a spiritual bond with the failed struggles of the past, such that fighting for justice today redeems those past failures.
The anxiety regarding the unknown outcomes of combined global threats (AI, ecology, war), where the result is not a clear singularity but a self-contradictory, chaotic 'big Other'.
A new form of life emerging in zones of destruction (Gaza, Ukraine) that is 'nature gone crazy,' neither purely natural nor cultural, resulting from human destruction.
Marx's concept of the proletarian as a 'substantanzlose subject' (substanceless subject), reduced to anonymous labor, which Žižek reinterprets as a form of objectivization necessary for political agency.
The capacity to calmly and distantly 'abandon oneself' to an experience (like art) without the hyperactive need to interpret, compete, or produce, which AI threatens to erase.
Stories he reaches for 5
Bernie Sanders' presence at Biden's inauguration became an 'authentic icon' that stole the show, demonstrating the power of symbolic gestures over political program.
“who stole the show? bernie sanders. sitting there. and this became an authentic icon.”
A rich rabbi, a rich Jew, and a poor Jew all say 'I am nothing.' The rich men are offended, asking who the poor man is to claim he is nothing, illustrating how 'nothing' can be a radical, universalizing category.
“one of the rich guys says, but who is this guy that he can also say that he is is not. you know, nothing is for me a very radical category”
Freud's analysis of the Wolfman failed because he gave the patient money out of sympathy, triggering paranoia about marriage to Anna Freud; Muriel Gardiner succeeded by charging fees, maintaining the necessary distance.
“freud screwed up the analysis because he was too good... it triggered paranoia.”
Trump is a manipulative historicist who believes in nothing, while Bernie Sanders acts as a 'true moral majority' with common decency, representing a 'miracle' of authentic moral engagement.
“if you look at bernie sanders, how he acts, he acts as a true moral majority with common decency... that's the miracle of bernie sanders.”
David Lynch played Shostakovich's 15th Symphony on set because he loved its lack of emotional identification, contrasting with the horror of silence in the Webern example.
“lynch loved so much shostakovich's last 15th symphony, which is so weird without any emotional identification.”
Works invoked 6
Philosophy of Right book
Hegel's work, cited for the insight that thinking grasps orders only in decay.
Psycho film
Cited for the toilet bowl scene, representing fantasy spaces where horrors emerge.
Ivan the Terrible film
Praised for the 'excess of form' in the coronation scene, where formal elements undermine official meaning.
Black Square artwork
Malevich's work, interpreted not as a return to realism but as the persistence of abstract form.
Shostakovich's symphony, valued for its lack of emotional identification.
The Wolfman (Case Study) other
Used to illustrate Freud's failure and the necessity of the analyst's payment.
People invoked 23
Tertullian positive
Called 'my hero' for understanding that authentic belief requires a moment of absurdity, not just rational grounds.
Jacques Derrida positive
Cited as the source of the 'Jewish synagogue' joke, which Žižek calls 'the nicest joke for me'.
Kazimir Malevich positive
Praised for his late work, where the abstract form (the square) persists even in concrete imagery.
Mentioned in the context of Trotsky's hypothetical pact, which Žižek dismisses as an illusion.
Lavrentiy Beria positive
Described as a 'nightmare' personally but an interesting 'proto-Gorbachev' politically for his border proposals.
Jacques Lacan positive
Cited for the insistence on payment in psychoanalysis and the concept of pathological jealousy.
Anton Webern positive
Composer whose short pieces create a 'moment of faith' when the music ends and silence remains.
David Lynch positive
Praised for his use of Shostakovich's 15th Symphony, which lacks emotional identification.
Donald Trump negative
Described as an 'absolute manipulative historicist' who 'believes in nothing' and merely manipulates, contrasting him with Sanders.
Mentioned in the context of a hypothetical pact with Lenin that would have led to socialist democracy, which Žižek rejects.
Bernie Sanders positive
Described as a 'miracle' and an 'authentic icon' whose presence signifies a radical change beyond political program.
Malcolm X positive
Cited for keeping the 'X' to signify a lack of fixed identity, opening up a universalist potential.
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez negative
Described as 'much more manipulative' compared to Bernie Sanders, with whom Žižek expresses more trust.
Walter Benjamin positive
Cited for the concept of 'mystical solidarity' with the past, which Žižek uses to ground revolutionary hope.
Michael Marder positive
A philosopher friend who developed the notion of 'biomass' in zones of destruction.
Søren Kierkegaard positive
Cited for the idea that one must believe first to understand the reasons for Christianity.
Sergei Eisenstein positive
Praised for the 'excess of form' in his films, particularly 'Ivan the Terrible'.
Dmitri Shostakovich positive
Composer of the 15th Symphony, loved by Lynch for its lack of emotional identification.
Mentioned in the context of Beria's liquidation and Stalin's own strange religious poems.
Muriel Gardiner positive
A radical leftist psychoanalyst who successfully treated the Wolfman by charging fees, correcting Freud's error.
Karl Marx positive
Cited for the idea that truth is never neutral and requires an engaged position of solidarity.
Sigmund Freud negative
Critiqued for his 'fatal mistake' in the Wolfman case, where his sympathy (giving money) ruined the analysis.
Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel positive
Cited for the idea that conceptual thinking can only grasp existing orders in decay, leaving the future blank.
Transcript 344 turns
Slavoj Žižek
i do it, simply. borst. i like good borst. you don't ask women. we are probably lost. it's too late.
i do it, simply. borst. i like good borst. you don't ask women. we are probably lost. it's too late.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
yeah.
yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
but then out of despair you act, and that's faith. bernie sanders is this true miracle. we need madness.
but then out of despair you act, and that's faith. bernie sanders is this true miracle. we need madness.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
remember that moment when navalny survived from being poisoned?
remember that moment when navalny survived from being poisoned?
Slavoj Žižek
that was a pure act of faith. who knows, it may turn out to be shit, but this is the true revolutionary spirit. my god, you can be beautiful, but fuck it, you are more. you are more. you have an intellect. i mean, if political correctness means i will be immediately arrested. this is how my mind works.
that was a pure act of faith. who knows, it may turn out to be shit, but this is the true revolutionary spirit. my god, you can be beautiful, but fuck it, you are more. you are more. you have an intellect. i mean, if political correctness means i will be immediately arrested. this is how my mind works.
Audience Member
i
i
Nadya Tolokonnikova
happy. welcome. to right studio.
happy. welcome. to right studio.
Slavoj Žižek
thanks very much. i'm really glad to be here, even if it's too hot for me this santa ana stuff. i would much prefer to do interview with you on the most favorite place in the world, svalbard island, halfway between north of norway and northern pole. but
thanks very much. i'm really glad to be here, even if it's too hot for me this santa ana stuff. i would much prefer to do interview with you on the most favorite place in the world, svalbard island, halfway between north of norway and northern pole. but
Nadya Tolokonnikova
i understand. oh, you had to turn off the ac all. so we're going to completely die towards the end.
i understand. oh, you had to turn off the ac all. so we're going to completely die towards the end.
Audience Member
it's. we can turn by ro if it's not.
it's. we can turn by ro if it's not.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
okay, well we have to be really quick otherwise we die. so
okay, well we have to be really quick otherwise we die. so
Slavoj Žižek
so we do, sorry for again, trigger warning, i cannot step out of obscenities, no. so they want us to do what the intellectual equivalent of what in sex is called a quickie.
so we do, sorry for again, trigger warning, i cannot step out of obscenities, no. so they want us to do what the intellectual equivalent of what in sex is called a quickie.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
yes.
yes.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, okay, sure.
yeah, okay, sure.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
pretty much.
pretty much.
Slavoj Žižek
it's clear.
it's clear.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
so this is an orthodox cross that we have here. it's pink because i twist pretty much everything that i touch. and this is from one of my music videos that is called hate fuck. so...
so this is an orthodox cross that we have here. it's pink because i twist pretty much everything that i touch. and this is from one of my music videos that is called hate fuck. so...
Slavoj Žižek
i like this, i'm so sorry we don't have time. no, no. i like this categorization of, you know. you have hate fuck, you have mercy fuck, what they call mercy fuck, just you do it out of sympathy, despair, you don't enjoy it, you know. and so on. and although i'm generally against prostitution, there is still something indecent in it, but i spoke once with some prostitutes. and they told me, i don't know if this is a male chauvinist myth, but they... and i can deeply understand that attitude. they prefer to be paid not for money, but not to get personally involved.
i like this, i'm so sorry we don't have time. no, no. i like this categorization of, you know. you have hate fuck, you have mercy fuck, what they call mercy fuck, just you do it out of sympathy, despair, you don't enjoy it, you know. and so on. and although i'm generally against prostitution, there is still something indecent in it, but i spoke once with some prostitutes. and they told me, i don't know if this is a male chauvinist myth, but they... and i can deeply understand that attitude. they prefer to be paid not for money, but not to get personally involved.
Audience Member
mhm
mhm
Slavoj Žižek
you know, because if you don't pay her, the psychological dimension remains here. does she really like me or he or whatever?
you know, because if you don't pay her, the psychological dimension remains here. does she really like me or he or whatever?
Audience Member
but.
but.
Slavoj Žižek
if this is also the reason why lacan insisted that in psychoanalysis you have to pay the analyst.
if this is also the reason why lacan insisted that in psychoanalysis you have to pay the analyst.
Audience Member
mm-hmm.
mm-hmm.
Slavoj Žižek
so that you don't get too close and it concerns a russian guy. do you know that... lacan gives a nice analysis freud's famous patient wolfmann you know, freud screwed up the analysis because he was too good. wolfmann was a classic borderline.
so that you don't get too close and it concerns a russian guy. do you know that... lacan gives a nice analysis freud's famous patient wolfmann you know, freud screwed up the analysis because he was too good. wolfmann was a classic borderline.
Audience Member
mm-hmm
mm-hmm
Slavoj Žižek
more towards neurosis than towards psychosis. then, after the october revolution, his wealthy family in russia lost everything. so he was out of money and out because of his sympathy, freud not only didn't charge him, but gave him money sustained him. and typical, freud was not bright here. every good analyst will tell you this. this proved to be a fatal mistake because it triggered paranoia. wolfmann became obsessed with why is he paying me? what does he want? and you know what was his dream? he met a couple of times, what was my god, freud's daughter, anna freud.
more towards neurosis than towards psychosis. then, after the october revolution, his wealthy family in russia lost everything. so he was out of money and out because of his sympathy, freud not only didn't charge him, but gave him money sustained him. and typical, freud was not bright here. every good analyst will tell you this. this proved to be a fatal mistake because it triggered paranoia. wolfmann became obsessed with why is he paying me? what does he want? and you know what was his dream? he met a couple of times, what was my god, freud's daughter, anna freud.
Audience Member
mm
mm
Slavoj Žižek
and he thought freud wants him to marry his daughter. that was why he is paying him..
and he thought freud wants him to marry his daughter. that was why he is paying him..
Nadya Tolokonnikova
ask.
ask.
Slavoj Žižek
and sorry?
and sorry?
Nadya Tolokonnikova
did they ever ask anna about it?
did they ever ask anna about it?
Slavoj Žižek
you don't ask women. but you know what's so interesting? good thing about americans, there was a psychoanalyst who was at the same time a radical leftist, muriel gardiner. he wrote a very good book, complete dossier of wolfman, and she took wolfman in analysis, freud's analysis, ended in failure, immediately got this, where was freud mistakes and she saved him so that you know when did that would be nice historical visit you know wolfmann when he died in the early 1960s wouldn't it nice you took like because wolfmann is more than a human being he is a concept it's like and you walk around vienna oh my god look wolfmann is there sorry i talk too much you are black but better it would be the leather jacket with a whip, you know.
you don't ask women. but you know what's so interesting? good thing about americans, there was a psychoanalyst who was at the same time a radical leftist, muriel gardiner. he wrote a very good book, complete dossier of wolfman, and she took wolfman in analysis, freud's analysis, ended in failure, immediately got this, where was freud mistakes and she saved him so that you know when did that would be nice historical visit you know wolfmann when he died in the early 1960s wouldn't it nice you took like because wolfmann is more than a human being he is a concept it's like and you walk around vienna oh my god look wolfmann is there sorry i talk too much you are black but better it would be the leather jacket with a whip, you know.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
i was already in a leather jacket at our last meeting.
i was already in a leather jacket at our last meeting.
Slavoj Žižek
i know said change it up a little bit. and i...
i know said change it up a little bit. and i...
Nadya Tolokonnikova
have tons
have tons
Slavoj Žižek
i am.
i am.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
collection we can go
collection we can go
Slavoj Žižek
and i like it how the famous toilet. the two of us between the toilet. you know why you were correct to propose that photo, the toilet bowl between the two of us? because the water in the toilet bowl is one of these fantasy spaces. where horrors, nightmares and so on come up. that's why in hitchcock's psycho.
and i like it how the famous toilet. the two of us between the toilet. you know why you were correct to propose that photo, the toilet bowl between the two of us? because the water in the toilet bowl is one of these fantasy spaces. where horrors, nightmares and so on come up. that's why in hitchcock's psycho.
Audience Member
mm-hmm.
mm-hmm.
Slavoj Žižek
you know, the point is, and this was most difficult for san to swallow, how they look into the toilet, horrible things come out of the toilet, you know. so it was, this is my. it was theoretically correct because we know
you know, the point is, and this was most difficult for san to swallow, how they look into the toilet, horrible things come out of the toilet, you know. so it was, this is my. it was theoretically correct because we know
Nadya Tolokonnikova
it happened with me in penal colony. lots of things were coming out of bathroom.
it happened with me in penal colony. lots of things were coming out of bathroom.
Slavoj Žižek
really??
really??
Nadya Tolokonnikova
i'm not going to describe in details, but yeah, i wrote about it in an open letter when i started hunger strike. that was like a tipping point. i just can't. i saw it.
i'm not going to describe in details, but yeah, i wrote about it in an open letter when i started hunger strike. that was like a tipping point. i just can't. i saw it.
Slavoj Žižek
okay, now i'm so evil. i cannot restrain myself from asking you you made a real hunger strike, not this kind of coordinated that with share and then each evening the officer come here, you have a cake and so on. it was real.
okay, now i'm so evil. i cannot restrain myself from asking you you made a real hunger strike, not this kind of coordinated that with share and then each evening the officer come here, you have a cake and so on. it was real.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
yeah, it was real. it was three hunger strikes. the first one was 10 days and then... little bit shorter. so nothing too crazy, but it was enough. really want aid. they were effective, you one of the hunger strikes. brought an amazing result. the prison warden who was in charge of the system of slaves. and my penal colony got not only removed from his position but he also ended up under a criminal investigation himself. and he ended up with a couple of years of probation and he never can work in the system ever again. it's a small victory.
yeah, it was real. it was three hunger strikes. the first one was 10 days and then... little bit shorter. so nothing too crazy, but it was enough. really want aid. they were effective, you one of the hunger strikes. brought an amazing result. the prison warden who was in charge of the system of slaves. and my penal colony got not only removed from his position but he also ended up under a criminal investigation himself. and he ended up with a couple of years of probation and he never can work in the system ever again. it's a small victory.
Slavoj Žižek
but what was the reason for mistreating you?
but what was the reason for mistreating you?
Nadya Tolokonnikova
the entirety of the population, i mean, like it was around 000 people, everyone lived in horrible conditions, like no medical help, no terrible labor conditions.
the entirety of the population, i mean, like it was around 000 people, everyone lived in horrible conditions, like no medical help, no terrible labor conditions.
Slavoj Žižek
okay, this, it's too stupid to use it, but like, what did you get to eat? borst? i like good borst.
okay, this, it's too stupid to use it, but like, what did you get to eat? borst? i like good borst.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
not even, i mean...
not even, i mean...
Slavoj Žižek
not even yeah
not even yeah
Nadya Tolokonnikova
it's really bad. i mean, they... it really depends on the prison warden so. how corrupted they are.
it's really bad. i mean, they... it really depends on the prison warden so. how corrupted they are.
Slavoj Žižek
are.
are.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
really corrupted. so he would feed us with rotten potato and then some rotten pigtails as meat.
really corrupted. so he would feed us with rotten potato and then some rotten pigtails as meat.
Slavoj Žižek
oh my god, yeah, yeah. but but were you allowed to get package list from french food also from outside.
oh my god, yeah, yeah. but but were you allowed to get package list from french food also from outside.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
but here's the trick, i wasn't really allowed to have access to those.
but here's the trick, i wasn't really allowed to have access to those.
Slavoj Žižek
see you.
see you.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
aren't allowed to get the packages. so you have them in the fridge.
aren't allowed to get the packages. so you have them in the fridge.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah.
yeah.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
them them in the story.
them them in the story.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah.
yeah.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
but you don't have access to the storage because you're permanently punished for something.
but you don't have access to the storage because you're permanently punished for something.
Slavoj Žižek
ahuh.
ahuh.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
not sewing police uniforms fast enough for speaking too loud or for looking into the wrong direction or for smiling
not sewing police uniforms fast enough for speaking too loud or for looking into the wrong direction or for smiling
Slavoj Žižek
okay.
okay.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
and that's a.
and that's a.
Slavoj Žižek
another obvious question. you see, these things always fascinate me. was there a minimal solidarity with other prisoners or was it also suspicion like i shouldn't talk too much with him or her, they can denounce me or what? how did this work?
another obvious question. you see, these things always fascinate me. was there a minimal solidarity with other prisoners or was it also suspicion like i shouldn't talk too much with him or her, they can denounce me or what? how did this work?
Nadya Tolokonnikova
it's different in male and female prisons. in female it's so much worse because in male prison you have it a second system of authority that doesn't come from the prison warden, it comes from the criminal community.
it's different in male and female prisons. in female it's so much worse because in male prison you have it a second system of authority that doesn't come from the prison warden, it comes from the criminal community.
Slavoj Žižek
the standard already in it's not good like this was the idea they tolerated yeah the ordinary criminals controlled the space inside even
the standard already in it's not good like this was the idea they tolerated yeah the ordinary criminals controlled the space inside even
Nadya Tolokonnikova
it to mean it used to be like right now putin is not a joke. so he's getting rid of the last traces of the system.
it to mean it used to be like right now putin is not a joke. so he's getting rid of the last traces of the system.
Slavoj Žižek
yep
yep
Nadya Tolokonnikova
they're moving to.
they're moving to.
Slavoj Žižek
from
from
Nadya Tolokonnikova
so-called
so-called
Slavoj Žižek
mm.
mm.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
black ones to red ones and the red one means controlled fully by the government.
black ones to red ones and the red one means controlled fully by the government.
Slavoj Žižek
you know what fascinated me so much about all the compromises even of stalinist power? you know were were usually in stalinist guloulads, shouting at you. dirty bourgeois, fascistists or whatever. after they found a letter of beria to all gulag commanders of prisons. after the molotov-ribbentrop pact, beria wrote them. please do not, when you shout at prisoners, you can say imperialist spies, do not use in a humiliating way the term fascist. because germans may. learn this and would turn it against us.
you know what fascinated me so much about all the compromises even of stalinist power? you know were were usually in stalinist guloulads, shouting at you. dirty bourgeois, fascistists or whatever. after they found a letter of beria to all gulag commanders of prisons. after the molotov-ribbentrop pact, beria wrote them. please do not, when you shout at prisoners, you can say imperialist spies, do not use in a humiliating way the term fascist. because germans may. learn this and would turn it against us.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
because their fascists are our friends.
because their fascists are our friends.
Slavoj Žižek
sorry?
sorry?
Nadya Tolokonnikova
fascists are our friends.
fascists are our friends.
Slavoj Žižek
friend isn't it ironically beria himself but you know beria is for me an interesting person and because it's so depressing, but it happens at the level of he. uh m what he proposed, he was almost a proto-gorbachev, you know. he wanted to not rejoin the west, but open borders. he made that famous proposal to the west that if russia also gets money from that marshall plan or what, they would tolerate united germany just demilitarized. and then it's totally wrong. usually it's misread that beria was liquidated as the last stalinist. no, he went too far. at the same time. personally, he was a nightmare, no? he did these things which i thought belongs to fiction.
friend isn't it ironically beria himself but you know beria is for me an interesting person and because it's so depressing, but it happens at the level of he. uh m what he proposed, he was almost a proto-gorbachev, you know. he wanted to not rejoin the west, but open borders. he made that famous proposal to the west that if russia also gets money from that marshall plan or what, they would tolerate united germany just demilitarized. and then it's totally wrong. usually it's misread that beria was liquidated as the last stalinist. no, he went too far. at the same time. personally, he was a nightmare, no? he did these things which i thought belongs to fiction.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
he was also sexual abuser, wasn't he? sorry. he was also a sexual abuser, wasn't he?
he was also sexual abuser, wasn't he? sorry. he was also a sexual abuser, wasn't he?
Slavoj Žižek
mega! one of his specialties was two cars. he sat with blackened windows, of course. in the first car, lookout out, if she saw a beautiful lady, she gave a sign, he, sorry, phone, i don't know what, like kidnapped that one. and they brought him. no, no, he was and stalin knew all this. stalin always.
mega! one of his specialties was two cars. he sat with blackened windows, of course. in the first car, lookout out, if she saw a beautiful lady, she gave a sign, he, sorry, phone, i don't know what, like kidnapped that one. and they brought him. no, no, he was and stalin knew all this. stalin always.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
stalin is a super conservative person like we talked about. stalin is super conservative. he was the one who cancelled abortions in the soviet union.
stalin is a super conservative person like we talked about. stalin is super conservative. he was the one who cancelled abortions in the soviet union.
Slavoj Žižek
but this was early 20s or when, no?
but this was early 20s or when, no?
Nadya Tolokonnikova
they first installed abortions after the revolution. lenin was pro-abortion and then kollontai was around still. and then stalin deeply i mean, he's a religious person, like he studied in seminary.
they first installed abortions after the revolution. lenin was pro-abortion and then kollontai was around still. and then stalin deeply i mean, he's a religious person, like he studied in seminary.
Slavoj Žižek
not only
not only
Nadya Tolokonnikova
religious goal.
religious goal.
Slavoj Žižek
i like these details which are so weird that doesn't fit the model. do you know that? stalin when he was studying the religious seminar. wrote some short poems celebrating spirituality and so on, which became part of folk poetry there. and they discovered afterwards that it was
i like these details which are so weird that doesn't fit the model. do you know that? stalin when he was studying the religious seminar. wrote some short poems celebrating spirituality and so on, which became part of folk poetry there. and they discovered afterwards that it was
Nadya Tolokonnikova
did it discover after his death or... during.
did it discover after his death or... during.
Slavoj Žižek
rumors circulated all the time, but yes, basically.
rumors circulated all the time, but yes, basically.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
so it really rhymes with what you say about goebbels. they both loved spirituality. well, that brings us to religion. you wanted me to be a dominatrix and dictator here. i really want to talk about religion. i really want to talk about, well, the question that i keep asking myself, you see, i have a lot of... something that i call proto-icons. they're not really icons, but for example this one i use this old religious calligraphy was invented by slavic people in the 13th, 14th century called vyaz.
so it really rhymes with what you say about goebbels. they both loved spirituality. well, that brings us to religion. you wanted me to be a dominatrix and dictator here. i really want to talk about religion. i really want to talk about, well, the question that i keep asking myself, you see, i have a lot of... something that i call proto-icons. they're not really icons, but for example this one i use this old religious calligraphy was invented by slavic people in the 13th, 14th century called vyaz.
Audience Member
hmm.
hmm.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
and i'm almost like trying to create my own religion. without actually being a believer. i'm an atheist. actually, reading i'm r reading your book. before today about christian atheism and in listening to one of my latest songs, i had major chills because the song is called, i wrote it about two months ago, it's called god's left. um i'll read you a couple of lines. let me find it. ashes fill the sky. they say raindrops never die. they say dead men learn to fly. i see sorrow in your eyes. gods don't hear me, why? they say angels learn to lie. i see terror in your eyes. dying son begins to cry. god's left this world and found a new one. my dreams travel far beyond my desk. god slept this world and found a new one. praying still, but there is no one. everything's becoming undone. and i felt like if. you need an anthem for your book christian atheism, you feel free to use the song. because it's... it is about as being abandoned. by gods and trying to survive within the world of dying son. down erst and inequality and still trying to find a meaning. so i guess the question would be, what is the faith? for radical politics to drive them.
and i'm almost like trying to create my own religion. without actually being a believer. i'm an atheist. actually, reading i'm r reading your book. before today about christian atheism and in listening to one of my latest songs, i had major chills because the song is called, i wrote it about two months ago, it's called god's left. um i'll read you a couple of lines. let me find it. ashes fill the sky. they say raindrops never die. they say dead men learn to fly. i see sorrow in your eyes. gods don't hear me, why? they say angels learn to lie. i see terror in your eyes. dying son begins to cry. god's left this world and found a new one. my dreams travel far beyond my desk. god slept this world and found a new one. praying still, but there is no one. everything's becoming undone. and i felt like if. you need an anthem for your book christian atheism, you feel free to use the song. because it's... it is about as being abandoned. by gods and trying to survive within the world of dying son. down erst and inequality and still trying to find a meaning. so i guess the question would be, what is the faith? for radical politics to drive them.
Slavoj Žižek
first... oh. in my, as you probably know, in my reading of christianity. why do i call myself a christian atheist? i. i i claim, and that's the paradoxical thesis, that the only way to be a true atheist is to go through the christian experience over there.
first... oh. in my, as you probably know, in my reading of christianity. why do i call myself a christian atheist? i. i i claim, and that's the paradoxical thesis, that the only way to be a true atheist is to go through the christian experience over there.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
that's why i love you. so people who look at my work, they're often annoyed. they say, you say you're an atheist. you you used to criticize kirill, now you just do icons. but for me it. embracing this language and twisting it and making it my own and writing my own slogans like noan, punk's not dead.
that's why i love you. so people who look at my work, they're often annoyed. they say, you say you're an atheist. you you used to criticize kirill, now you just do icons. but for me it. embracing this language and twisting it and making it my own and writing my own slogans like noan, punk's not dead.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, yeah.
yeah, yeah.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
putin is a dickhead. is my way to be an atheist through christianity.
putin is a dickhead. is my way to be an atheist through christianity.
Slavoj Žižek
interrupt you. my god, you know, dickhead, no, there is nothing bad for me in it. like don't you give to put too much.
interrupt you. my god, you know, dickhead, no, there is nothing bad for me in it. like don't you give to put too much.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
it said... putin khuylo. you know they use it a lot in ukraine. it started as as a song of football hooligans who just randomly walked around town singing this. and it became almost like an anthem. for resistance against putin's invasion.
it said... putin khuylo. you know they use it a lot in ukraine. it started as as a song of football hooligans who just randomly walked around town singing this. and it became almost like an anthem. for resistance against putin's invasion.
Audience Member
thank.
thank.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
that's fine.
that's fine.
Slavoj Žižek
you're quoting. okay, i see. yes. no. first, yes, please, just. maybe did you already send it to me but send it to me again.
you're quoting. okay, i see. yes. no. first, yes, please, just. maybe did you already send it to me but send it to me again.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
the
the
Slavoj Žižek
the lyrics yes. i need that then i promise you and i can even tell you where i will use it now this quantum physics book. i will incidentally, i have your address. to send a book to you, i send it here.
the lyrics yes. i need that then i promise you and i can even tell you where i will use it now this quantum physics book. i will incidentally, i have your address. to send a book to you, i send it here.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
different one, but i'll tell it to you off camera.
different one, but i'll tell it to you off camera.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, yeah, yeah, that's very good idea. you never know.
yeah, yeah, yeah, that's very good idea. you never know.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
i have.
i have.
Slavoj Žižek
i would love to send you. this book also and i totally forgot i was in a bad mood of how it will be done there during the two events but you know
i would love to send you. this book also and i totally forgot i was in a bad mood of how it will be done there during the two events but you know
Nadya Tolokonnikova
i read parts of it and i didn't obviously have time to read the entire thing, but you sent me some parts of it. you know what. i'm super stoked about the holographic concept. i you
i read parts of it and i didn't obviously have time to read the entire thing, but you sent me some parts of it. you know what. i'm super stoked about the holographic concept. i you
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, crucial. but first, where i deeply agree with you, and i will use another example which i mentioned in my talks here is what you speak about icons, you know.
yeah, crucial. but first, where i deeply agree with you, and i will use another example which i mentioned in my talks here is what you speak about icons, you know.
Audience Member
mm-hmm
mm-hmm
Slavoj Žižek
usually, as you said, you know, stupid leftists, this is key category today. stupid leftists are, for example, those who follow the dogma today. since nato, nato is... evil itself. so whoever is in conflict with nato there must be something good in him you know so let's not support
usually, as you said, you know, stupid leftists, this is key category today. stupid leftists are, for example, those who follow the dogma today. since nato, nato is... evil itself. so whoever is in conflict with nato there must be something good in him you know so let's not support
Nadya Tolokonnikova
i've encountered it even in assange when i visited him in the ecuadorian embassy.
i've encountered it even in assange when i visited him in the ecuadorian embassy.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, so,... uh... o. when you speak about icons, again, as you already hinted it, you get this stupid, not real atheist.
yeah, so,... uh... o. when you speak about icons, again, as you already hinted it, you get this stupid, not real atheist.
Audience Member
h.
h.
Slavoj Žižek
who claim no, icons are superstition, blah blah. they sometimes even put it in pseudo. marxist terms like icon means immediacy, you see it there but in reality everything is socially mediated and so on. no no, i agree with you and i will mention an example. it's already from my books, but i think i already mentioned it in our public debates there. remember. democratic. in inauguration of biden, who stole the show? bernie sanders.
who claim no, icons are superstition, blah blah. they sometimes even put it in pseudo. marxist terms like icon means immediacy, you see it there but in reality everything is socially mediated and so on. no no, i agree with you and i will mention an example. it's already from my books, but i think i already mentioned it in our public debates there. remember. democratic. in inauguration of biden, who stole the show? bernie sanders.
Audience Member
yes
yes
Slavoj Žižek
sitting there. and this became an authentic icon.
sitting there. and this became an authentic icon.
Audience Member
uh-huh.
uh-huh.
Slavoj Žižek
my point is that you cannot erase it and said, why do you need an icon? wouldn't it be better for people just to become fully conscious of we need a more radical change? no, you need exactly an icon. you need... and we shouldn't be aware of it from bernie sanders and it doesn't even, that's crucial, i hope we'll agree. an icon they will say it doesn't have a precise meaning. we need marxist science or whatever it's more complex because
my point is that you cannot erase it and said, why do you need an icon? wouldn't it be better for people just to become fully conscious of we need a more radical change? no, you need exactly an icon. you need... and we shouldn't be aware of it from bernie sanders and it doesn't even, that's crucial, i hope we'll agree. an icon they will say it doesn't have a precise meaning. we need marxist science or whatever it's more complex because
Nadya Tolokonnikova
love love icons.
love love icons.
Slavoj Žižek
y, sorry.
y, sorry.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
that's why i love icons.
that's why i love icons.
Slavoj Žižek
absolutely. for example, it's not an icon, but the statue, you know, which is my favorite story here. you know, in budapest, after... 44, 45, they had a big monument, a statue of a lady. which was set up there as a monument to thanks for the red army to liberate us. you know what's the history of that monument? it's incredible. it was ordered by marshall hy. his son died on russian front in 1942. and... then when i don't know which russian marshal general it was when they occupied budapest. he said, we need a monument for le. look around what we have here and somebody told him that a conservative sculptor, their artist did this image which was meant to celebrate a fascist killed by a russian army.
absolutely. for example, it's not an icon, but the statue, you know, which is my favorite story here. you know, in budapest, after... 44, 45, they had a big monument, a statue of a lady. which was set up there as a monument to thanks for the red army to liberate us. you know what's the history of that monument? it's incredible. it was ordered by marshall hy. his son died on russian front in 1942. and... then when i don't know which russian marshal general it was when they occupied budapest. he said, we need a monument for le. look around what we have here and somebody told him that a conservative sculptor, their artist did this image which was meant to celebrate a fascist killed by a russian army.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
mm-hmm.
mm-hmm.
Slavoj Žižek
and he said, and in a way i think he was right. he says said, who cares about this? we put it on and it will be our symbol. i deeply agree with you here. let me go into another detail. how open i there.
and he said, and in a way i think he was right. he says said, who cares about this? we put it on and it will be our symbol. i deeply agree with you here. let me go into another detail. how open i there.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
and talk about faith.
and talk about faith.
Slavoj Žižek
sorry? yeah, yeah. do you know a movie that i really...
sorry? yeah, yeah. do you know a movie that i really...
Nadya Tolokonnikova
how should i describe what i believe in? help me here.
how should i describe what i believe in? help me here.
Slavoj Žižek
through icons you cannot i think that if you if you try to specify it too much you know. you get lost in hear a hegelian, know when hegel says, endlessly quoted, forward to philosophy of right, that. all that thinking, conceptual thinking can do is to grasp the existing order when this order is already in decay. so this is why it's totally wrong to accuse hegel of not being... of being outdated and so on but he knew this. what he describes in his philosophy of right is basically a little bit almost a fascist system three states corporate and so on but he knew it that this is already disappearing. thinking can do only this and there are some things in script. de. future is totally blank. all we can do is propose icons.
through icons you cannot i think that if you if you try to specify it too much you know. you get lost in hear a hegelian, know when hegel says, endlessly quoted, forward to philosophy of right, that. all that thinking, conceptual thinking can do is to grasp the existing order when this order is already in decay. so this is why it's totally wrong to accuse hegel of not being... of being outdated and so on but he knew this. what he describes in his philosophy of right is basically a little bit almost a fascist system three states corporate and so on but he knew it that this is already disappearing. thinking can do only this and there are some things in script. de. future is totally blank. all we can do is propose icons.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
that's why. i studied philosophy for five years but i abandoned it and i've decided to move completely into visual art.
that's why. i studied philosophy for five years but i abandoned it and i've decided to move completely into visual art.
Slavoj Žižek
here we have a problem, but not in the sense the type. no, no, no, no, no. it's not that i think that i am more, but i am simply, which is not good, you know, because progressive types are usually more towards visual art, while... fascist right-wingers are for music.
here we have a problem, but not in the sense the type. no, no, no, no, no. it's not that i think that i am more, but i am simply, which is not good, you know, because progressive types are usually more towards visual art, while... fascist right-wingers are for music.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
mm-hmm
mm-hmm
Slavoj Žižek
no.
no.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
well i combine both.
well i combine both.
Slavoj Žižek
but but nonetheless it's interesting because i am for example, jung, the bad guy, jung, he was absolutely musical type. freud admits he simply... didn't have a sense for music freud was a visual type, you know. but you know what interests me? i don't know if you remember i used this in my old books already? i saw a ballet by some, i forgot his name, very famous american ballet director. he put on stage a uh uh. a short piece by anton webern.
but but nonetheless it's interesting because i am for example, jung, the bad guy, jung, he was absolutely musical type. freud admits he simply... didn't have a sense for music freud was a visual type, you know. but you know what interests me? i don't know if you remember i used this in my old books already? i saw a ballet by some, i forgot his name, very famous american ballet director. he put on stage a uh uh. a short piece by anton webern.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
mm-hhm
mm-hhm
Slavoj Žižek
the problem with webern is that his pieces are usually three minutes long, you know. but you know the effect is so horrifying. you know what he did. music, dancers dance, and then the music is over and dancers go on dancing in silence. that's the moment of faith for me. you know, because sorry? very lynch. yeah. ah but you know and sorry, i'm jumping, you do your censorship. as for lynch you can jump you know that in the last his... when he was doing that absolutely crazy movie i forgot the title totally not. no, the one about a guy who on a tractor goes across the united states to visit. state story. yeah you know...
the problem with webern is that his pieces are usually three minutes long, you know. but you know the effect is so horrifying. you know what he did. music, dancers dance, and then the music is over and dancers go on dancing in silence. that's the moment of faith for me. you know, because sorry? very lynch. yeah. ah but you know and sorry, i'm jumping, you do your censorship. as for lynch you can jump you know that in the last his... when he was doing that absolutely crazy movie i forgot the title totally not. no, the one about a guy who on a tractor goes across the united states to visit. state story. yeah you know...
Nadya Tolokonnikova
that's why i love riley.
that's why i love riley.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, you know how they were shooting that movie. lynch loved so much shostakovich's last 15th symphony, which is so weird without any emotional identification. and when they were doing the shooting, he ordered that this symphony should be played all the time. so i think uh. this experience, this is for me what i mean by living. dead the usual idea is that. icons are just images or text and that music is the real inner experience. you immediately feel the pathos and so on.
yeah, you know how they were shooting that movie. lynch loved so much shostakovich's last 15th symphony, which is so weird without any emotional identification. and when they were doing the shooting, he ordered that this symphony should be played all the time. so i think uh. this experience, this is for me what i mean by living. dead the usual idea is that. icons are just images or text and that music is the real inner experience. you immediately feel the pathos and so on.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
mm-hmm.
mm-hmm.
Slavoj Žižek
i think here i'm hopefully on your side. that no, the true horror is... when? music gets silent and then you have the visual iconic aspect going on. but without this emotional background in music, then you see the, let's call it, sacred dimension at its purest. it's... autonomous. it doesn't relate to some of your deep music can do this. music is for me, i know this theoretically, but in practice i'm decadent. i cannot do it. music is too emotional. it grabs you, you know. i'm not saying icons are not emotional, but they are not emotional in this pathetic sense, you know, of oh my god, now i feel this that. no, i believe in, how should i call it, void itself as a zero level emotion. and this you get in icons. so that's why to make a general confusion we already sorry, conclusion.
i think here i'm hopefully on your side. that no, the true horror is... when? music gets silent and then you have the visual iconic aspect going on. but without this emotional background in music, then you see the, let's call it, sacred dimension at its purest. it's... autonomous. it doesn't relate to some of your deep music can do this. music is for me, i know this theoretically, but in practice i'm decadent. i cannot do it. music is too emotional. it grabs you, you know. i'm not saying icons are not emotional, but they are not emotional in this pathetic sense, you know, of oh my god, now i feel this that. no, i believe in, how should i call it, void itself as a zero level emotion. and this you get in icons. so that's why to make a general confusion we already sorry, conclusion.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
thing.
thing.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah!
yeah!
Nadya Tolokonnikova
do you also look at malevich's black squares?
do you also look at malevich's black squares?
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, but you know what i like as everybody does the usual, i don't know, you russians are here more educated, usually you know the details but the standard western reading of malevich is that he had that radical point of black square blah blah and then under the stalinist pressure in the late 20s already blah blah that he returned to realist painting i think it's not as simple as that. if nothing else, you know his famous auto portrait.
yeah, but you know what i like as everybody does the usual, i don't know, you russians are here more educated, usually you know the details but the standard western reading of malevich is that he had that radical point of black square blah blah and then under the stalinist pressure in the late 20s already blah blah that he returned to realist painting i think it's not as simple as that. if nothing else, you know his famous auto portrait.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
mm-hmm.
mm-hmm.
Slavoj Žižek
self-portrait. late. you know how he has his hand?
self-portrait. late. you know how he has his hand?
Nadya Tolokonnikova
mm.
mm.
Slavoj Žižek
to form a square the message is, sorry guys, i'm not back to realism. the square is still here. you know, this is why, again, what interests me is the exact opposite of the usual reading of abstract art, which is, ah, it's not really abstract art. you still can recognize faces, contours, and so on. no, what i like in... late malevich is that it appears to be concrete images, but what you really should focus is the abstract form. here i am... hegelian and the marxists, as my friend fred jameson repeated, a good marxist is always a formalist. the secret is in the form itself. marxism is not form just expresses content. no, no, no. there is always a tension between form and content. you know where you even find this? i'm not saying he was a suspicious guy that i totally like him, but sergei eisenstein, even in his late period. ivan grozny and so on. it's so clear how he has the official story to tell, but in the way he shoots it, there is an excess of form which partially undermines the intended official meaning for example the very beginning of part 1 of ivan grozny. you mean when he is... crow. and how? two priests whoever approached him and out of some cups were put on his head like a whole flow of golden coins.
to form a square the message is, sorry guys, i'm not back to realism. the square is still here. you know, this is why, again, what interests me is the exact opposite of the usual reading of abstract art, which is, ah, it's not really abstract art. you still can recognize faces, contours, and so on. no, what i like in... late malevich is that it appears to be concrete images, but what you really should focus is the abstract form. here i am... hegelian and the marxists, as my friend fred jameson repeated, a good marxist is always a formalist. the secret is in the form itself. marxism is not form just expresses content. no, no, no. there is always a tension between form and content. you know where you even find this? i'm not saying he was a suspicious guy that i totally like him, but sergei eisenstein, even in his late period. ivan grozny and so on. it's so clear how he has the official story to tell, but in the way he shoots it, there is an excess of form which partially undermines the intended official meaning for example the very beginning of part 1 of ivan grozny. you mean when he is... crow. and how? two priests whoever approached him and out of some cups were put on his head like a whole flow of golden coins.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
m-hhm.
m-hhm.
Slavoj Žižek
but it's done in such a subtle way that... non-realistic that there are not many golden coins but they in a totally non-realistic way keep falling falling falling non-realistically that's the excess at is purest and to make even another comparison and jumping with quantum physics there they discover i think not electron but photon you know our how it works. we have usual objects which we say this object has a certain weight. or whatever and then of course like this is this but if i hit you or anybody with it. it will, if i hit something with it fast, it will have more weight, more force. okay. the beautiful, it gives me immediately an intellectual orgasm. the beautiful theory of photon is that. it chess. it doesn't have a zero weight. it's only in the excess. you know, you cannot say basically at peace it is this, a minimal amount of matter inertia, but then when it moves... like again, if i hit you with this, it's much worse than if i just softly touch you. no, no, his idea is that there are objects which are just their own excess. you know whom, so here, i don't think it worked, but i quite liked even that, maybe the most boring story in nov, that the last silent movie made in russia late 20s of eisenstein. where... where she does something which i think fits our purpose of atheist believers. you know that famous scene of when they test some milk. machine to make butter and so on
but it's done in such a subtle way that... non-realistic that there are not many golden coins but they in a totally non-realistic way keep falling falling falling non-realistically that's the excess at is purest and to make even another comparison and jumping with quantum physics there they discover i think not electron but photon you know our how it works. we have usual objects which we say this object has a certain weight. or whatever and then of course like this is this but if i hit you or anybody with it. it will, if i hit something with it fast, it will have more weight, more force. okay. the beautiful, it gives me immediately an intellectual orgasm. the beautiful theory of photon is that. it chess. it doesn't have a zero weight. it's only in the excess. you know, you cannot say basically at peace it is this, a minimal amount of matter inertia, but then when it moves... like again, if i hit you with this, it's much worse than if i just softly touch you. no, no, his idea is that there are objects which are just their own excess. you know whom, so here, i don't think it worked, but i quite liked even that, maybe the most boring story in nov, that the last silent movie made in russia late 20s of eisenstein. where... where she does something which i think fits our purpose of atheist believers. you know that famous scene of when they test some milk. machine to make butter and so on
Nadya Tolokonnikova
yeah.
yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
presented as a religious miracle, this sacred dimension in it. so.
presented as a religious miracle, this sacred dimension in it. so.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
so what are we believe?
so what are we believe?
Slavoj Žižek
i think here maybe we disagree. i think precisely that. it's the same when i talk about love. everybody is now copying that. i claim that the mystery of love, not in any interesting object is that. let us say, unimaginable because you are now, my style trigger warning, you are now old and ugly but like you say, i love her, sorry for taking the male chauvinist perspective, i love her because of her eyes, legs, voice, intellect. this is not how love works.
i think here maybe we disagree. i think precisely that. it's the same when i talk about love. everybody is now copying that. i claim that the mystery of love, not in any interesting object is that. let us say, unimaginable because you are now, my style trigger warning, you are now old and ugly but like you say, i love her, sorry for taking the male chauvinist perspective, i love her because of her eyes, legs, voice, intellect. this is not how love works.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
yeah.
yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
in true love love comes first. yes, i notice your eyes, legs. but only i, when i'm already in love with you, i noticed it. and here i draw in some of my text a wonderful line between this logic of love and religion kierkegaard, whom we all love. he said the same. he said the ultimate blasphemy is to say i studied different religions and i decided to be a christian because it has most convincing argument. no, as he says to first, to, yes, there are good reasons for christianity. but to understand them you must already believe in it. and i then draw a crazy parallel with marx himself.
in true love love comes first. yes, i notice your eyes, legs. but only i, when i'm already in love with you, i noticed it. and here i draw in some of my text a wonderful line between this logic of love and religion kierkegaard, whom we all love. he said the same. he said the ultimate blasphemy is to say i studied different religions and i decided to be a christian because it has most convincing argument. no, as he says to first, to, yes, there are good reasons for christianity. but to understand them you must already believe in it. and i then draw a crazy parallel with marx himself.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
mm.
mm.
Slavoj Žižek
marxism is not a neutral worldview. you look at history, you see workers are exploited, okay, but they have a future. okay, let's put the wager on them. no, it is that. and this moves in our direction. death. there is scientific objective truth. but there is a deeper, i don't want to say inner truth, because it's not inner. the authentic truth. only is accessible from an engaged position of solidarity with those who suffer. truth is never neutral. the moment you argue from a neutral position, you are already an oppressor. this is why, maybe you know it in my books, i often use this example. let's say we are, i will be the bad guy, we are in germany in late mid 30s. we debate anti-semitism. and you... you... attack anti-semitism. you say it's wrong what they claim about jew. i defend it.
marxism is not a neutral worldview. you look at history, you see workers are exploited, okay, but they have a future. okay, let's put the wager on them. no, it is that. and this moves in our direction. death. there is scientific objective truth. but there is a deeper, i don't want to say inner truth, because it's not inner. the authentic truth. only is accessible from an engaged position of solidarity with those who suffer. truth is never neutral. the moment you argue from a neutral position, you are already an oppressor. this is why, maybe you know it in my books, i often use this example. let's say we are, i will be the bad guy, we are in germany in late mid 30s. we debate anti-semitism. and you... you... attack anti-semitism. you say it's wrong what they claim about jew. i defend it.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
mm-hmm
mm-hmm
Slavoj Žižek
the moment. we enter this domain we lose the point because you know i often refer to that. regularly, i repeat myself, i know. to that lacan's famous statement, if a man is pathologically jealous
the moment. we enter this domain we lose the point because you know i often refer to that. regularly, i repeat myself, i know. to that lacan's famous statement, if a man is pathologically jealous
Nadya Tolokonnikova
yes.
yes.
Slavoj Žižek
his wife. this he remains pathological even if it's
his wife. this he remains pathological even if it's
Nadya Tolokonnikova
it's.
it's.
Slavoj Žižek
even if she is really cheap, because the true question is not, is it true or not? the true question is, why am i so jealous? why do i need the wife to be jealous for me to retain my identity? and it's the same again for anti-seemitism. the true question is not, are jews really like that? if you accept this, you will end up in some not interesting compromise. maybe gls have too much influence, but it's not as bad as you claim it's horrible. no, the true question is why do the jews really like that? but why do the nazis need a figure as that of a jew to sustain their approach, their whole? realité.
even if she is really cheap, because the true question is not, is it true or not? the true question is, why am i so jealous? why do i need the wife to be jealous for me to retain my identity? and it's the same again for anti-seemitism. the true question is not, are jews really like that? if you accept this, you will end up in some not interesting compromise. maybe gls have too much influence, but it's not as bad as you claim it's horrible. no, the true question is why do the jews really like that? but why do the nazis need a figure as that of a jew to sustain their approach, their whole? realité.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
so let's come back to truth and truth.
so let's come back to truth and truth.
Slavoj Žižek
i'm here traditional, sorry.
i'm here traditional, sorry.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
not being objective.
not being objective.
Slavoj Žižek
so objective knowledge.
so objective knowledge.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
we were getting into faith and then he started talking about the. um so then next.
we were getting into faith and then he started talking about the. um so then next.
Slavoj Žižek
no, fate for me. here maybe we.
no, fate for me. here maybe we.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
i also when you talked about kierkegaard, i thought about tertullian. who said that i believe because it's absurd. very.
i also when you talked about kierkegaard, i thought about tertullian. who said that i believe because it's absurd. very.
Slavoj Žižek
and i don't know enough about him, but i spoke with some theologians and then checked tertullian, my hero. he was not an irrationalist, you know. and he... he didn't simply say, oh, it must be crazy to believe it and so on, but he saw this clearly that authentic belief. cannot be grounded simply in direct objective rational
and i don't know enough about him, but i spoke with some theologians and then checked tertullian, my hero. he was not an irrationalist, you know. and he... he didn't simply say, oh, it must be crazy to believe it and so on, but he saw this clearly that authentic belief. cannot be grounded simply in direct objective rational
Nadya Tolokonnikova
yeah, can expression.
yeah, can expression.
Slavoj Žižek
no must be this moment of absurdity in it. and it's even politically. look. look at. horrible time but nonetheless look at soviet union in when was the worst moment? i think 19220 where
no must be this moment of absurdity in it. and it's even politically. look. look at. horrible time but nonetheless look at soviet union in when was the worst moment? i think 19220 where
Nadya Tolokonnikova
al
al
Slavoj Žižek
and all those already has
and all those already has
Nadya Tolokonnikova
i think 1937 was the worst.
i think 1937 was the worst.
Slavoj Žižek
oh, of course, as for perlis. but what i mean, the situation will survive.
oh, of course, as for perlis. but what i mean, the situation will survive.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
with the economy.
with the economy.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, yeah, yeah,.
yeah, yeah, yeah,.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
the hunger.
the hunger.
Slavoj Žižek
only one eighthighth of the russian territory.
only one eighthighth of the russian territory.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
yeah.
yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
and so from a rational standpoint, it would be why go on? no they simply persisted this moment of apparent irrationality or now
and so from a rational standpoint, it would be why go on? no they simply persisted this moment of apparent irrationality or now
Nadya Tolokonnikova
exactly. or only boarding the planes should come back to russia.
exactly. or only boarding the planes should come back to russia.
Slavoj Žižek
sorry?
sorry?
Nadya Tolokonnikova
remember that moment when navalny survived from being poisoned?
remember that moment when navalny survived from being poisoned?
Slavoj Žižek
and that was.
and that was.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
a beautiful.
a beautiful.
Slavoj Žižek
act of faith.
act of faith.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
he jumped into.
he jumped into.
Slavoj Žižek
he what? he knew he will not that upon his return, that he will be celebrated by the masses there and so on. it this was an act of pure belief. i don't think he was an idiot and had any illusions and so on. not at all even now, palestinians, no? they know that from a rational standpoint, they are returning to ruins there. nothing there. nonetheless they are returning there.
he what? he knew he will not that upon his return, that he will be celebrated by the masses there and so on. it this was an act of pure belief. i don't think he was an idiot and had any illusions and so on. not at all even now, palestinians, no? they know that from a rational standpoint, they are returning to ruins there. nothing there. nonetheless they are returning there.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
mm-hmm.
mm-hmm.
Slavoj Žižek
it's it's an... incredible aspect of this under quotation marks irrational fidelity.
it's it's an... incredible aspect of this under quotation marks irrational fidelity.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
yeah, or like people from kharkiv who continue living there and even though it's every day under bombshells.
yeah, or like people from kharkiv who continue living there and even though it's every day under bombshells.
Slavoj Žižek
yes, and you know what i read. i wonder if it is true. but so interesting is that. like in kharkiv and so on. maybe you know more, but some people from ukraine told me this. you know when you live in this desperate state, kharkiv or gaza, there are practically no suicides.
yes, and you know what i read. i wonder if it is true. but so interesting is that. like in kharkiv and so on. maybe you know more, but some people from ukraine told me this. you know when you live in this desperate state, kharkiv or gaza, there are practically no suicides.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
yeah
yeah
Slavoj Žižek
suicides come after, where things return to normal. and this is the most dangerous moment. there you survive because you believe that there is a big weakness. i have to survive to tell the truth.
suicides come after, where things return to normal. and this is the most dangerous moment. there you survive because you believe that there is a big weakness. i have to survive to tell the truth.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
mm-hmm.
mm-hmm.
Slavoj Žižek
you know when when suicides occur, when you discover there is nobody to listen. that you tell the truth but people get bored yeah or either it's often happens they get male chauvinist like ah are you sure you were not enjoying a little meat when you were raped and all that
you know when when suicides occur, when you discover there is nobody to listen. that you tell the truth but people get bored yeah or either it's often happens they get male chauvinist like ah are you sure you were not enjoying a little meat when you were raped and all that
Nadya Tolokonnikova
hit me after i got out of jail.
hit me after i got out of jail.
Slavoj Žižek
i.
i.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
terribly depressed for a year. i don't even remember like i was meeting people. i can't remember anything right now. i think partly because we went to all these crazy places like european parliament, uk parliament, united states right. and it's exactly with the horror that there were people sitting with... empty eyes for whom it was just another meaning they have to go through the motions and then go get a cr.
terribly depressed for a year. i don't even remember like i was meeting people. i can't remember anything right now. i think partly because we went to all these crazy places like european parliament, uk parliament, united states right. and it's exactly with the horror that there were people sitting with... empty eyes for whom it was just another meaning they have to go through the motions and then go get a cr.
Slavoj Žižek
that's why i agree. that's why i find problematic the notion of compassion. which there is always something hypocritical in it usually, not always. it means, yes, i'm here, safe and i feel compassion for you. no, no, no. you must yourself be part of it. this. movement is necessary. but back to faith. uh i think, for example, take the palestinians, they call it sumut or how. this idea of absolute fidelity to your land. it's totally irrational, but you insist on it. it's the same where you need faith. in ecology. if you look just at science, we are probably lost, you know. artificial intelligence, ecology, it's too late.
that's why i agree. that's why i find problematic the notion of compassion. which there is always something hypocritical in it usually, not always. it means, yes, i'm here, safe and i feel compassion for you. no, no, no. you must yourself be part of it. this. movement is necessary. but back to faith. uh i think, for example, take the palestinians, they call it sumut or how. this idea of absolute fidelity to your land. it's totally irrational, but you insist on it. it's the same where you need faith. in ecology. if you look just at science, we are probably lost, you know. artificial intelligence, ecology, it's too late.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
mm-hmm
mm-hmm
Slavoj Žižek
and also there you have all this fetishichism of numbers like you know, for some time it was this mysterious number 1.5. por. if temperatures go up like this, we are lost.
and also there you have all this fetishichism of numbers like you know, for some time it was this mysterious number 1.5. por. if temperatures go up like this, we are lost.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
now it's more already.
now it's more already.
Slavoj Žižek
sorry?
sorry?
Nadya Tolokonnikova
now it's more already.
now it's more already.
Slavoj Žižek
no, it's already more but these numbers doesn't mean.
no, it's already more but these numbers doesn't mean.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
it.
it.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah yeah, i know. the proper approach is not we have to rationally ground that we are not totally lost. no, we have to accept as objective knowledge that we are probably lost. it's too late.
yeah yeah, i know. the proper approach is not we have to rationally ground that we are not totally lost. no, we have to accept as objective knowledge that we are probably lost. it's too late.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
yeah.
yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
but then out of despair you act, and that's fate.
but then out of despair you act, and that's fate.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
like bolsheviks.
like bolsheviks.
Slavoj Žižek
like bolshevik step, yeah.
like bolshevik step, yeah.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
i'm curious here, i mean, someone would be... would draw conclusions from what you said to new age spirituality, which you oppose.
i'm curious here, i mean, someone would be... would draw conclusions from what you said to new age spirituality, which you oppose.
Slavoj Žižek
min reality is very... no can hear me.
min reality is very... no can hear me.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
can you draw the boundary between like yes, we need to find new faith in believing in protecting nature versus
can you draw the boundary between like yes, we need to find new faith in believing in protecting nature versus
Slavoj Žižek
for me spirituality. does not mean this idea of
for me spirituality. does not mean this idea of
Nadya Tolokonnikova
and also, is it more... c fin. ça finished. solovyov, like one of the russian philosophers.
and also, is it more... c fin. ça finished. solovyov, like one of the russian philosophers.
Slavoj Žižek
uhuh
uhuh
Nadya Tolokonnikova
who writes about sophia as the body of christ. and so the holy spirit materializes. in earth, through humanity, through matter, in this notion of sophia, wisdom.
who writes about sophia as the body of christ. and so the holy spirit materializes. in earth, through humanity, through matter, in this notion of sophia, wisdom.
Slavoj Žižek
i have problems here because i think that precisely christ was much more a non-wise madman. he was not wisdom for me. he was a crazy disturbance. he was ruining the social order. for me, what is christ? christ
i have problems here because i think that precisely christ was much more a non-wise madman. he was not wisdom for me. he was a crazy disturbance. he was ruining the social order. for me, what is christ? christ
Nadya Tolokonnikova
fuckuck christ.
fuckuck christ.
Slavoj Žižek
i.
i.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
but i'm talking about sophia. you write about, you have a passage in christian
but i'm talking about sophia. you write about, you have a passage in christian
Slavoj Žižek
yeah
yeah
Nadya Tolokonnikova
about i i was fascinated that he
about i i was fascinated that he
Slavoj Žižek
you
you
Nadya Tolokonnikova
those guys. it's rare. i guess it's
those guys. it's rare. i guess it's
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, yes.
yeah, yes.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
g smart person plus you.
g smart person plus you.
Slavoj Žižek
well europe. that helps. as if, oh my god, you are now racist. as if in eastern europe we are usually idiots.
well europe. that helps. as if, oh my god, you are now racist. as if in eastern europe we are usually idiots.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
i'm saying like it actually gives you the edge.
i'm saying like it actually gives you the edge.
Slavoj Žižek
yes, i think just a brief detour. that's why i liked your brief intervention when was it two days ago? where... you know, there is so much of this western racism where they think that we from the east, we should stick to our stories, stalinist oppression, decadence now. no, i think that only from our experience of disintegration of communism and then a mess that followed. we can see more clearly in comparison what's going on here.
yes, i think just a brief detour. that's why i liked your brief intervention when was it two days ago? where... you know, there is so much of this western racism where they think that we from the east, we should stick to our stories, stalinist oppression, decadence now. no, i think that only from our experience of disintegration of communism and then a mess that followed. we can see more clearly in comparison what's going on here.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
100%. i mean, like living in the 90s, at some point my family had no money to buy food. my mother had to sell some stuff from the house. and it happened because of economists who are still being highly praised here at the best. i mean, i have a lot of friends who believe in chicago school of economy, friedman. um and i think for me, i was little, i was four. obviously, i didn't think about economy back then, but i think this perspective makes it pretty clear to me that the magic hand of the market isn't going to regulate it necessarily in a way that i'm not going to be starving.
100%. i mean, like living in the 90s, at some point my family had no money to buy food. my mother had to sell some stuff from the house. and it happened because of economists who are still being highly praised here at the best. i mean, i have a lot of friends who believe in chicago school of economy, friedman. um and i think for me, i was little, i was four. obviously, i didn't think about economy back then, but i think this perspective makes it pretty clear to me that the magic hand of the market isn't going to regulate it necessarily in a way that i'm not going to be starving.
Slavoj Žižek
no, i absolutely agree, but this is why, i think i already mentioned it, this is why i appreciate covid. as an example, in spite of all the horrors, because my god, i remember before covid, you had this market. economy wisdom which said when somebody wanted to raise taxes a little bit, they said the market is sensitive. if you raise taxes on the rich for 2%, it will cause chaos. what was the lesson of covid? that you can do crazy things and the system survived. you know how much money was simply printed, spent, like even trump here. i think that you can correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't every family got a $2,000 check and so on? the good news of this is.
no, i absolutely agree, but this is why, i think i already mentioned it, this is why i appreciate covid. as an example, in spite of all the horrors, because my god, i remember before covid, you had this market. economy wisdom which said when somebody wanted to raise taxes a little bit, they said the market is sensitive. if you raise taxes on the rich for 2%, it will cause chaos. what was the lesson of covid? that you can do crazy things and the system survived. you know how much money was simply printed, spent, like even trump here. i think that you can correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't every family got a $2,000 check and so on? the good news of this is.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
even i received something. as an absolute no-one.
even i received something. as an absolute no-one.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah what i mean is that be careful here when you say, even i as an absolute no one, you know, you know, you must know it. i heard this story years ago when he was still alive from derrida. this is the nicest joke for me that you must know the story in a in how called, my god, i'm so confused, the jewish church, the synagogue. in the synagogue, they meet and a rich rabbi said, oh god, although i have great influence, blah, blah, but i'm really nothing, nothing. then another rich jew said, i may have billions, but i'm nothing. and then an ordinary poor jew says, god, i'm also nothing. and then one of the rich guys says, but who is this guy that he can also say that he is is not. you know, nothing is for me a very radical category which could also be misused. for example, what bothers me with liberal multiculturalists is that you can say as a native american, as a black guy, okay, i want my identity. but if you say, i'm a proud white guy, you are... dismissed as a fascist. there is something hypocritical in it because by denying the assertion of their identity they. pretend to occupy the universal place. white liberals like to teach pure minorities know act like this and so on and so on. so that's why for me, i'm not afraid to say, okay, those white people who feel threatened today, okay, they want to retain their identity, allegedly threatened by immigrants and so on. my message to them would be okay, have your identity. just drop your pretense to universality.
yeah what i mean is that be careful here when you say, even i as an absolute no one, you know, you know, you must know it. i heard this story years ago when he was still alive from derrida. this is the nicest joke for me that you must know the story in a in how called, my god, i'm so confused, the jewish church, the synagogue. in the synagogue, they meet and a rich rabbi said, oh god, although i have great influence, blah, blah, but i'm really nothing, nothing. then another rich jew said, i may have billions, but i'm nothing. and then an ordinary poor jew says, god, i'm also nothing. and then one of the rich guys says, but who is this guy that he can also say that he is is not. you know, nothing is for me a very radical category which could also be misused. for example, what bothers me with liberal multiculturalists is that you can say as a native american, as a black guy, okay, i want my identity. but if you say, i'm a proud white guy, you are... dismissed as a fascist. there is something hypocritical in it because by denying the assertion of their identity they. pretend to occupy the universal place. white liberals like to teach pure minorities know act like this and so on and so on. so that's why for me, i'm not afraid to say, okay, those white people who feel threatened today, okay, they want to retain their identity, allegedly threatened by immigrants and so on. my message to them would be okay, have your identity. just drop your pretense to universality.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
don't
don't
Slavoj Žižek
secretly elevate your authenticity through universality. you must know i used it also in my books. my favorite experience. i visited missoula, montana 20 years ago. for some. a small colloquium, but also i visited to see david lynch's house of birth. he is from there.
secretly elevate your authenticity through universality. you must know i used it also in my books. my favorite experience. i visited missoula, montana 20 years ago. for some. a small colloquium, but also i visited to see david lynch's house of birth. he is from there.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
oh.
oh.
Slavoj Žižek
and we had the debate then, and there were some, i don't even how to call them, native americans.
and we had the debate then, and there were some, i don't even how to call them, native americans.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
or
or
Slavoj Žižek
no, no, no, we don't. native americans. indians, whatever you call them, one of them simply referred to himself as indian. immediately a white liberal interrupted him. no, no, no, this is colonial. you should call yourself native american. and the native american, whatever you call him, gave him a perfect answer. he said, native american, sorry, i like this even less. because native american, what is the opposite of nature? culture. native american, you are cultural american or what you know. and then my own joke, everybody knows it. he said, i much prefer to be called indian because at least my name is the monument to white men's stupidity who thought they are in india when they come here. i mean they are i even developed friendship with some of these native americans who said they hate it most absolutely white liberals who come to them and say, oh, i'm from la, i live in a big villa business, but i see your experience here is so much more authentic even. now the guy said told to this well-meaning american, okay, why don't we?
no, no, no, we don't. native americans. indians, whatever you call them, one of them simply referred to himself as indian. immediately a white liberal interrupted him. no, no, no, this is colonial. you should call yourself native american. and the native american, whatever you call him, gave him a perfect answer. he said, native american, sorry, i like this even less. because native american, what is the opposite of nature? culture. native american, you are cultural american or what you know. and then my own joke, everybody knows it. he said, i much prefer to be called indian because at least my name is the monument to white men's stupidity who thought they are in india when they come here. i mean they are i even developed friendship with some of these native americans who said they hate it most absolutely white liberals who come to them and say, oh, i'm from la, i live in a big villa business, but i see your experience here is so much more authentic even. now the guy said told to this well-meaning american, okay, why don't we?
Nadya Tolokonnikova
which yeah.
which yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
let me go to your villa in la and you live in this misery here. they are so much more... what what i admire most is when. people who are threatened from minorities don't see a way out in their identity, but precisely in their potential universality. i refer to this often like malcolm x.
let me go to your villa in la and you live in this misery here. they are so much more... what what i admire most is when. people who are threatened from minorities don't see a way out in their identity, but precisely in their potential universality. i refer to this often like malcolm x.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
mm-hmm
mm-hmm
Slavoj Žižek
you know why he kept the x? it was not longing for his african identity. he said, x means we don't have identity, our roots. this opens up a chance for us to be even more universalist truly than the white people think.
you know why he kept the x? it was not longing for his african identity. he said, x means we don't have identity, our roots. this opens up a chance for us to be even more universalist truly than the white people think.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
mm-hmm.
mm-hmm.
Slavoj Žižek
think that they are, you know. so back to faith, i think that i am. tempted! two keep faith in this. irrational dimensions, empty. it's a space of hope. but you act and then if you are lucky, it's always risky. it can turn into nightmare. i don't believe these stories, you must have heard that that. lenin and trotsky, everything was okay, then stalin took over. no, no, no, no. the roots were already before. you know, some trotskykys have this dream. if lenin were to survive only for two years, he would have made a pact with trotsky and there would be a thriving socialist democracy. okay, probably it would have been better a little bit than stalin, but no illusions here. but what i'm saying is that here. i am not only in your sense religious, but referring to walter benjamin. i even... believe in this. mystical solidarity that when that even those who lost the good guys in the past.
think that they are, you know. so back to faith, i think that i am. tempted! two keep faith in this. irrational dimensions, empty. it's a space of hope. but you act and then if you are lucky, it's always risky. it can turn into nightmare. i don't believe these stories, you must have heard that that. lenin and trotsky, everything was okay, then stalin took over. no, no, no, no. the roots were already before. you know, some trotskykys have this dream. if lenin were to survive only for two years, he would have made a pact with trotsky and there would be a thriving socialist democracy. okay, probably it would have been better a little bit than stalin, but no illusions here. but what i'm saying is that here. i am not only in your sense religious, but referring to walter benjamin. i even... believe in this. mystical solidarity that when that even those who lost the good guys in the past.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
yes.
yes.
Slavoj Žižek
they live in a memory as a possibility. and when you fight today for justice, you are not just redeeming the future you're also redeeming the past. as if all the failed attempts of the past from spartacus to whatever, we are fighting to redeem the past. that's for me belief. and that's why i don't trust these earth precise plans what to do it. we should be here utterly skeptical. who knows? it may turn out to be shit but this is... the true revolutionary spirit. the problem with stalin was that. first, he was in his structure. but in a false sense, deeply religious. he thought we communists have an access to objective historical necessity. we see ourselves objectively. this is our role in history. we are fulfilling it. no, for an authentic revolutionary act. you cannot ground your ethical decision to fight in objective knowledge. it has to be an act of faith in the sense of, although at the level of knowledge it's all a catastrophe, but we should act.
they live in a memory as a possibility. and when you fight today for justice, you are not just redeeming the future you're also redeeming the past. as if all the failed attempts of the past from spartacus to whatever, we are fighting to redeem the past. that's for me belief. and that's why i don't trust these earth precise plans what to do it. we should be here utterly skeptical. who knows? it may turn out to be shit but this is... the true revolutionary spirit. the problem with stalin was that. first, he was in his structure. but in a false sense, deeply religious. he thought we communists have an access to objective historical necessity. we see ourselves objectively. this is our role in history. we are fulfilling it. no, for an authentic revolutionary act. you cannot ground your ethical decision to fight in objective knowledge. it has to be an act of faith in the sense of, although at the level of knowledge it's all a catastrophe, but we should act.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
it has will leap of faith.
it has will leap of faith.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, but yeah, that.
yeah, but yeah, that.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
it works.
it works.
Slavoj Žižek
guardian leap of faith where you cannot even be sure leap of faith yeah yeah and then if you persist long enough everything will
guardian leap of faith where you cannot even be sure leap of faith yeah yeah and then if you persist long enough everything will
Nadya Tolokonnikova
you.
you.
Slavoj Žižek
no, we don't know.
no, we don't know.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
no, love. bernie sanders for that a lot. i read a long time ago his book and he was saying that i act ethically not because i expect something in return or i expect to see something in my lifetime just because.
no, love. bernie sanders for that a lot. i read a long time ago his book and he was saying that i act ethically not because i expect something in return or i expect to see something in my lifetime just because.
Slavoj Žižek
perfect, that's the point. that's why i'm just so sad that he is probably, i don't know, old, losing energy, but i think, don't take this in an anti-feminist way, i don't trust too much. the sexual aoc. she is much more manipulative and so on, while bernie sanders is this true miracle. that's why would't you agree with this? it's my old story, but i like to repeat it. you know, trump portrays the opposition to him as this crazy relativist, historicist, while he presents himself as a true christian and so on. but in reality, it's the exakt opposite. trump is... absolute manipulative historicist he believes in nothing he just manipulates while if you look at bernie sanders, how he acts, he acts as a true moral majority with common decency, no cheap subversive acts and so on. that's the miracle of bernie sanders.
perfect, that's the point. that's why i'm just so sad that he is probably, i don't know, old, losing energy, but i think, don't take this in an anti-feminist way, i don't trust too much. the sexual aoc. she is much more manipulative and so on, while bernie sanders is this true miracle. that's why would't you agree with this? it's my old story, but i like to repeat it. you know, trump portrays the opposition to him as this crazy relativist, historicist, while he presents himself as a true christian and so on. but in reality, it's the exakt opposite. trump is... absolute manipulative historicist he believes in nothing he just manipulates while if you look at bernie sanders, how he acts, he acts as a true moral majority with common decency, no cheap subversive acts and so on. that's the miracle of bernie sanders.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
i want him to live forever. i just love him way too much. i watch everyone.
i want him to live forever. i just love him way too much. i watch everyone.
Slavoj Žižek
not in an obscene sense.
not in an obscene sense.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
if would
if would
Slavoj Žižek
said your.
said your.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
but you
but you
Slavoj Žižek
met him.
met him.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
i've met him yet.
i've met him yet.
Slavoj Žižek
so nice because i tried to, it was almost done, but then he made, i already had a connection with people around him, but then he did something heroic for his age didn't he half a year ago? he made this tour even to small.
so nice because i tried to, it was almost done, but then he made, i already had a connection with people around him, but then he did something heroic for his age didn't he half a year ago? he made this tour even to small.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
they they gathered millions of people yes.
they they gathered millions of people yes.
Slavoj Žižek
it's incredible. you know, i also hear believe in another thing. when cynics said we are totally lost, we are totally manipulated. no, you can empirically prove how his town meetings were a mega success, but they were systematically ignored or marginalized by the big media. i mean, we are even not aware to what extent the news that we get. in the big media are. are manipulated you know that's why i'm not saying we simply have an access to objective truth. no, engagement is the crucial word. we have to risk the engagement. and as a hegelian, i say that's the only way. towards a different radical future. fall into the trap of this we have to be realists and so on. no again, look at covid. realism didn't work there. according to cynical realists, our economy should have collapsed. no. you could do raise taxes, give people, it was practically trump doing this, how do you call it, free sum of money. yeah, yeah, trump was almost doing that. and did anything fall apart? no. trump is even. now i will be dangerously ironic. isn't trump even doing a lot of this now? not in a good sense, but you know, he says tariffs here, give billions there. this is not the logic of market. from the market logic, this is madness. and we should not say, oh, we should be more rational. no, we should precisely... follow trump, but not in his direction. see, you see, we can do crazy things. it will not ruin the economy. you know.
it's incredible. you know, i also hear believe in another thing. when cynics said we are totally lost, we are totally manipulated. no, you can empirically prove how his town meetings were a mega success, but they were systematically ignored or marginalized by the big media. i mean, we are even not aware to what extent the news that we get. in the big media are. are manipulated you know that's why i'm not saying we simply have an access to objective truth. no, engagement is the crucial word. we have to risk the engagement. and as a hegelian, i say that's the only way. towards a different radical future. fall into the trap of this we have to be realists and so on. no again, look at covid. realism didn't work there. according to cynical realists, our economy should have collapsed. no. you could do raise taxes, give people, it was practically trump doing this, how do you call it, free sum of money. yeah, yeah, trump was almost doing that. and did anything fall apart? no. trump is even. now i will be dangerously ironic. isn't trump even doing a lot of this now? not in a good sense, but you know, he says tariffs here, give billions there. this is not the logic of market. from the market logic, this is madness. and we should not say, oh, we should be more rational. no, we should precisely... follow trump, but not in his direction. see, you see, we can do crazy things. it will not ruin the economy. you know.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
no, exactly. economy is so trump is impressive in his boldness. i disagree with pretty much everything he does, but i appreciate a method of his madness.
no, exactly. economy is so trump is impressive in his boldness. i disagree with pretty much everything he does, but i appreciate a method of his madness.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, yeah.
yeah, yeah.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
and i do not love to be realistic. i think it's a trap. i think it's a trap that adult people set for us.
and i do not love to be realistic. i think it's a trap. i think it's a trap that adult people set for us.
Slavoj Žižek
important what you're saying now because you know that in today's situation with all the threats that we have, ecology, war, artificial intelligence to be a realist is the greatest utopia.
important what you're saying now because you know that in today's situation with all the threats that we have, ecology, war, artificial intelligence to be a realist is the greatest utopia.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
because to be a real survivor
because to be a real survivor
Slavoj Žižek
wait a minute, let's not exaggerate. if we just go on a little bit more modestly, the way it is now, somehow we will survive. no, we will not. i mean, we need madness. we really live in a mad world and it's obvious that horrors are awaiting us in un, especially in one of my books, i forgot which one, i developed this. the problem is not only that we have today three, four global threats. the obvious one, artificial intelligence, ecology, war, immigrants, how to deal with it. no, the the problem, what i fear is the combination of this threat. let's say. what depressed me is that. when there was a war, not ukraine so much as elsewhere, people said, i think when there was a war between armenia and azerbaijan, i read an interview where people said ly. we fight for survival, forget about ecology. we should forget about no, no no, it's much more intelligent. what i read in some ukrainian, they still exist there, leftist text.
wait a minute, let's not exaggerate. if we just go on a little bit more modestly, the way it is now, somehow we will survive. no, we will not. i mean, we need madness. we really live in a mad world and it's obvious that horrors are awaiting us in un, especially in one of my books, i forgot which one, i developed this. the problem is not only that we have today three, four global threats. the obvious one, artificial intelligence, ecology, war, immigrants, how to deal with it. no, the the problem, what i fear is the combination of this threat. let's say. what depressed me is that. when there was a war, not ukraine so much as elsewhere, people said, i think when there was a war between armenia and azerbaijan, i read an interview where people said ly. we fight for survival, forget about ecology. we should forget about no, no no, it's much more intelligent. what i read in some ukrainian, they still exist there, leftist text.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
h
h
Slavoj Žižek
dechet ! no, it's not just a war. what it means for ukraine ecologically it is a catastrophe.
dechet ! no, it's not just a war. what it means for ukraine ecologically it is a catastrophe.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
yeah.
yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
a friend of mine, michael marder, i don't always agree with him, a philosopher, developed this notion of biomass, that in these zones of destruction like gaza. it's literally a new form of life which is neither nature in the old sense of cultural life, but it's nature gone crazy under the effect of war human destruction, new forms of nature, we don't know what they mean. we are effectively overcoming the barrier and that is also happening in many parts of ukraine, in gaza, in some parts of africa and so on and so on. so no, we should not say this struggle is the crucial one now. we cannot afford it. here i also agree with you. this fear of. fear is not a good word, but let's say opacity. we don't know what will come out of artificial intelligence.
a friend of mine, michael marder, i don't always agree with him, a philosopher, developed this notion of biomass, that in these zones of destruction like gaza. it's literally a new form of life which is neither nature in the old sense of cultural life, but it's nature gone crazy under the effect of war human destruction, new forms of nature, we don't know what they mean. we are effectively overcoming the barrier and that is also happening in many parts of ukraine, in gaza, in some parts of africa and so on and so on. so no, we should not say this struggle is the crucial one now. we cannot afford it. here i also agree with you. this fear of. fear is not a good word, but let's say opacity. we don't know what will come out of artificial intelligence.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
anxiety.
anxiety.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, but what i fear. is that anxiety is that it's may even worse than we think. the usual fear of artificial intelligence is a big virtual superintelligence singularity will take it over, totally control g. but what is there will not be singularity. what is this big other itself will be ruining itself, self-contradictory and so on, you know. you give too much trust to artificial intelligence to think that it is one big consistent system that wants to dominate us. no,
yeah, but what i fear. is that anxiety is that it's may even worse than we think. the usual fear of artificial intelligence is a big virtual superintelligence singularity will take it over, totally control g. but what is there will not be singularity. what is this big other itself will be ruining itself, self-contradictory and so on, you know. you give too much trust to artificial intelligence to think that it is one big consistent system that wants to dominate us. no,
Nadya Tolokonnikova
no, most likely not. they're going to be developed by different countries and different companies, so they're going to be at war with each other.
no, most likely not. they're going to be developed by different countries and different companies, so they're going to be at war with each other.
Slavoj Žižek
conf
conf
Nadya Tolokonnikova
and.
and.
Slavoj Žižek
you know and maybe this is not just bad news. maybe in this cracks
you know and maybe this is not just bad news. maybe in this cracks
Nadya Tolokonnikova
exactly.
exactly.
Slavoj Žižek
based for our
based for our
Nadya Tolokonnikova
i really believe in cracks. think that the action. the radical thinking.
i really believe in cracks. think that the action. the radical thinking.
Slavoj Žižek
don't
don't
Nadya Tolokonnikova
here crap.
here crap.
Slavoj Žižek
don't use this.
don't use this.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
where the.
where the.
Slavoj Žižek
happening with me, you should break all contact with me. my obscene mind, you know when you said i believe in cracks no i mean if political correctness means i will be immediately arrested. i mean if political correctness wins i will be immediately arrested in a good sense because both that's what i sincerely, now it's no irony.
happening with me, you should break all contact with me. my obscene mind, you know when you said i believe in cracks no i mean if political correctness means i will be immediately arrested. i mean if political correctness wins i will be immediately arrested in a good sense because both that's what i sincerely, now it's no irony.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
yeah.
yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
admire in you no you have, i don't want to be obscene, a certain physical attraction, no? but how, when one speaks with you? it's the opposite of this vulgar freudian approach no all the talk i and i try to charm you with the secret thought in my mind. maybe i will drag you to. no, no, no. how i really, when we engage in a conversation, your personal. attractiveness, beauty steps back. and you have really have a mind and your physical attraction even helps because we somehow expect ugly people to be to have a mind. but this is the true experience of the spirit how? my god you can be beautiful but fuck it you are more. you are more. you have an intellect. this is so so rare today. that's why i give to women queen. full right can you explain me something ah you can use it or not yes we should stop i know but how do you you know i never
admire in you no you have, i don't want to be obscene, a certain physical attraction, no? but how, when one speaks with you? it's the opposite of this vulgar freudian approach no all the talk i and i try to charm you with the secret thought in my mind. maybe i will drag you to. no, no, no. how i really, when we engage in a conversation, your personal. attractiveness, beauty steps back. and you have really have a mind and your physical attraction even helps because we somehow expect ugly people to be to have a mind. but this is the true experience of the spirit how? my god you can be beautiful but fuck it you are more. you are more. you have an intellect. this is so so rare today. that's why i give to women queen. full right can you explain me something ah you can use it or not yes we should stop i know but how do you you know i never
Nadya Tolokonnikova
this is yours.
this is yours.
Slavoj Žižek
dish
dish
Nadya Tolokonnikova
this is my.
this is my.
Slavoj Žižek
women. don't like to be objectivized. and sorry, but can you imagine sexual attraction for women without a certain objectivization?
women. don't like to be objectivized. and sorry, but can you imagine sexual attraction for women without a certain objectivization?
Nadya Tolokonnikova
can i make a note? i like being objective.
can i make a note? i like being objective.
Slavoj Žižek
that's the proper marxist answer. because for no, no, i'm not kidding. you know how marx defines proletarians?. substantanzlose. subjectiv. a worker is just reduced to his zero subjectivity. he doesn't matter as his body personal qualities. he just has as an anonymous subject to work. and that's also another point i will tell you. why i i agree with what you said about icons and so on. uh i don't think. that we should follow this old marxist approach of which is not even marxist truly, that in contemporary culture we are just passive consumers we should be more active. no, we are maybe in some sense even hyperactive. i don't know how it is here but in my city all of a country i am using tr
that's the proper marxist answer. because for no, no, i'm not kidding. you know how marx defines proletarians?. substantanzlose. subjectiv. a worker is just reduced to his zero subjectivity. he doesn't matter as his body personal qualities. he just has as an anonymous subject to work. and that's also another point i will tell you. why i i agree with what you said about icons and so on. uh i don't think. that we should follow this old marxist approach of which is not even marxist truly, that in contemporary culture we are just passive consumers we should be more active. no, we are maybe in some sense even hyperactive. i don't know how it is here but in my city all of a country i am using tr
Nadya Tolokonnikova
yeah.
yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
for some african country. i refer to slovenia. you know, people go, sn intellectuals go to art exhibitions. but what they absolutely are not able to do is to calmly for a distance from a distance abandon themselves to an authentic passive experience.
for some african country. i refer to slovenia. you know, people go, sn intellectuals go to art exhibitions. but what they absolutely are not able to do is to calmly for a distance from a distance abandon themselves to an authentic passive experience.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
right.
right.
Slavoj Žižek
you open yourself to the work of art? no, they only read comments and so on. they compete who will give a brighter interpretation. some friends who are curators said that today when ordinary people who go to the exhibition for them it's a snobbish event, curators are now doing passive experience for us. we trust them. if a curator selected that, there must be something in it, so don't even bother. but so i think that against this stupidity of hyperactivity, blah blah, no, the most difficult thing today is an authentic stillness.ivity.
you open yourself to the work of art? no, they only read comments and so on. they compete who will give a brighter interpretation. some friends who are curators said that today when ordinary people who go to the exhibition for them it's a snobbish event, curators are now doing passive experience for us. we trust them. if a curator selected that, there must be something in it, so don't even bother. but so i think that against this stupidity of hyperactivity, blah blah, no, the most difficult thing today is an authentic stillness.ivity.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
yeah.
yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
no know.
no know.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
i mean, everyone is a creator, i don't want everyone.
i mean, everyone is a creator, i don't want everyone.
Slavoj Žižek
my god, now i'm a little bit, what i the i referred to, i hope you were not mad, now i'm beginning to hate you because this is a little bit too bright. you know, that's the formula that i would always accept. stop with this praising of creativity and so on and so on. what the influence of artificial intelligence is threatening is not our creativity. they will do the work for us. it's our authentic passivity, being open.
my god, now i'm a little bit, what i the i referred to, i hope you were not mad, now i'm beginning to hate you because this is a little bit too bright. you know, that's the formula that i would always accept. stop with this praising of creativity and so on and so on. what the influence of artificial intelligence is threatening is not our creativity. they will do the work for us. it's our authentic passivity, being open.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
i.
i.
Slavoj Žižek
because we are not able to do it, we are already manipulated there at what we perceive and so on, you know.
because we are not able to do it, we are already manipulated there at what we perceive and so on, you know.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
well, i'm really glad. that we had this conversation. and i'm really glad that you exist even though god doesn't. because sometimes...
well, i'm really glad. that we had this conversation. and i'm really glad that you exist even though god doesn't. because sometimes...
Slavoj Žižek
doub you know what i like to
doub you know what i like to
Nadya Tolokonnikova
right.
right.
Slavoj Žižek
s.
s.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
friend. i'm sorry. for me, someone who... is from and atheistic sovviet union. where atheism was embedded in us, or at least in my parents. it was it was forced. so they were atheists, but i think if something is forced on you, you can't really truly believe in it. so the job of my generation is to find another version of atheism that is going to be more open to religion. your work and i guess my work, they're moving is similar. the box in here.
friend. i'm sorry. for me, someone who... is from and atheistic sovviet union. where atheism was embedded in us, or at least in my parents. it was it was forced. so they were atheists, but i think if something is forced on you, you can't really truly believe in it. so the job of my generation is to find another version of atheism that is going to be more open to religion. your work and i guess my work, they're moving is similar. the box in here.
Slavoj Žižek
no, no, i agree with you because in ljubljana, after communism fell, the church financed a gymnasium high school, which was official catholic one. and many of my friends who had young sons and daughters, they were atheists. but they said, i am afraid my children will be seduced into traditional church, so they sent them to that high school.
no, no, i agree with you because in ljubljana, after communism fell, the church financed a gymnasium high school, which was official catholic one. and many of my friends who had young sons and daughters, they were atheists. but they said, i am afraid my children will be seduced into traditional church, so they sent them to that high school.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
yeah.
yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
and they were all terribly shocked disappointments.
and they were all terribly shocked disappointments.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
look at john. john studied in a religious university.
look at john. john studied in a religious university.
Slavoj Žižek
sorry, ind.
sorry, ind.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
religious university.
religious university.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, but some of them are not so bad. in the south even.
yeah, but some of them are not so bad. in the south even.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
no, but the point is that john grew up the most atheist i've ever seen in my life.
no, but the point is that john grew up the most atheist i've ever seen in my life.
Slavoj Žižek
oh really? oh my god. yeah, but again, be atheism in her sense, you know. not in this vulgar sense, just reality, analyze it. atheism really works with this excess of faith, you know. atheism and you know who even comes to
oh really? oh my god. yeah, but again, be atheism in her sense, you know. not in this vulgar sense, just reality, analyze it. atheism really works with this excess of faith, you know. atheism and you know who even comes to
Nadya Tolokonnikova
do i want to put it on?
do i want to put it on?
Slavoj Žižek
sorry?
sorry?
Nadya Tolokonnikova
we want to put it on?
we want to put it on?
Slavoj Žižek
absolutely, but
absolutely, but
Nadya Tolokonnikova
this.
this.
Slavoj Žižek
this is not a horror movie because... i love it.
this is not a horror movie because... i love it.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
it's malevich movie. mm
it's malevich movie. mm
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. i do it, simply. wait a minute. but do it.
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. i do it, simply. wait a minute. but do it.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
and then well, we can finish with this and then we can continue our conversation with... without a camera. or
and then well, we can finish with this and then we can continue our conversation with... without a camera. or
Slavoj Žižek
some way.
some way.
Nadya Tolokonnikova
just just look at the camera.
just just look at the camera.
Slavoj Žižek
mike
mike
Nadya Tolokonnikova
i don't know, just be serious and keep it for like 10 seconds.
i don't know, just be serious and keep it for like 10 seconds.
Slavoj Žižek
20 seconds part is is very difficult for me to keep silent for 20 seconds.
20 seconds part is is very difficult for me to keep silent for 20 seconds.