SSSSSSMmoking with Slavoj
Talk · zizekpodcast.com ·
2019-10-17 · 1:17:54 · 12,631 words
ideologycinema-art-cultureliberalism-political-correctnessdemocracyfascism-populismpsychoanalysiscommunism-socialismeveryday-lifephilosophy-general
In this informal interview, Žižek ranges across film, politics, and ideology in conversation with podcast hosts in New York. He discusses the Joker film and the philosophy of masks, arguing that truth lies in the mask rather than behind it, before turning to jokes, obscenity, and political solidarity. The bulk of the conversation addresses the 2019–2020 US political moment: Trump, Bernie Sanders, the Peterson debate, electability, and the need for the left to reclaim moral and aesthetic terrain. He closes with observations on Scandinavian noir, B-level science fiction, and old Hollywood.
every located moment in this recording, click one to read it
The ideas in it 12
in the order they first come up; click a row for what he does with the idea here
Implicit in discussions of Soviet TV delay and ideological censorship: the symbolic order that must be shielded from spontaneous obscenity.
Žižek's self-described method: he reads about a film, forms an idea, and fears that watching it might spoil the idea, the concept takes priority over the empirical object.
as “the mask as truth”
Žižek argues that the mask is not a disguise hiding the real person but is itself the site of truth, what we do and perform is more revealing than any alleged authentic self beneath.
Invoked in the analogy between the psychoanalyst and the mask: the analyst functions as a stranger to whom one can confess things unspeakable to intimates, precisely because they carry projected authority.
Žižek's pejorative label for a liberal-left politics that contents itself with mocking Trump's vulgarity and personal failings rather than building an alternative political project, which he argues actually strengthens Trump.
The most dangerous propaganda is not pure fiction but a narrative that incorporates true elements, making it harder to refute and more seductive.
Žižek's critical label for a left defined by grievance and passive complaint rather than active intervention, which he contrasts with Greta Thunberg's aggressive refusal to negotiate.
as “comedy at the limit of horror”
When atrocity reaches a sufficiently nightmarish level, tragedy fails because it requires a residue of dignified victimhood; only comedy, perplexed, self-mocking, is adequate to the extremity.
as “obscene supplement to power”
Military (and political) formal authority cannot function by itself; it requires a layer of obscene jokes, rituals, and innuendo that simultaneously binds participants and stabilises the hierarchy.
as “wild Keynesian”
Žižek's term for Trump's economic policy: massive deficit spending that belies his supposed neoliberal austerity rhetoric, and which the left should learn from rather than cede.
The idea that most political mobilisation today operates on aesthetic and moral-affective grounds rather than purely material interests, and the left must compete on this terrain.
Referenced indirectly in the discussion of how ideology addresses subjects through aesthetic and moral appeals rather than raw material interest.
Stories he reaches for 6
In Žižek's Yugoslav army unit, soldiers greeted each other with explicit homosexual propositions as a matter of daily routine, even while actual homosexuality was violently suppressed, illustrating the obscene supplement that stabilises formal authority.
“I'll smoke yours—vulgar expression for fellatio—and say yes go on after I finish smoking you something”
Žižek criticises Roberto Benigni's film for abandoning its comic stance at the climax with a tragic self-sacrifice, arguing it should have sustained the comic mode throughout to be honest to the horror.
“The lie of that movie that it doesn't persist in its comic stance to the end.”
People who knew Lacan intimately confirmed that in private he was exactly the same as his flamboyant public persona, no hidden 'real' person behind the mask.
“In private he is exactly the same. I like people who you search in vain for a mask of humanity”
Polish ruling-party leader Kaczyński answered a question about his plans with an extremely vulgar military expression ('now it's our turn to fuck the whore') on state TV, insisting on it when challenged, illustrating how right-wing populism deploys obscenity as a class-solidarity signal.
“teraz kurwa my—which means now it's our turn to fuck the whore.”
Žižek reads Levi's account of the 'selection' process, prisoners pinching cheeks to look healthy before the SS doctor, as having an irreducible comic dimension, arguing that extreme horror demands comedy not tragedy.
“How they exchange advices if you pinch you had to look as healthy yeah it's a comic show”
In Jim Carrey's The Mask, the mild-mannered protagonist puts on a mask and becomes a larger-than-life cartoon figure; Žižek reads this as proof that the mask, not the face, is the site of authentic identity.
“My big dogma is that there is more truth in the mask than in alleged authentic person whatever bullshit.”
Works invoked 29
Ninotchka film
Mentioned as Lubitsch but called 'a little bit suspicious'; Trouble in Paradise preferred.
Mentioned as his best-known work; says he cannot watch himself on screen for more than five seconds.
To Be or Not to Be film
Cited as one of the absolute comedies of old Hollywood.
Trouble in Paradise film
Žižek's favourite Lubitsch film; called 'breathtaking'; he organised colloquia around Lubitsch in Ljubljana and Berlin.
The Dark Knight film
Praised for Joker's inconsistent self-origin stories and for its allegorical richness; the true, philosophically interesting Joker film.
Part of his documentary trilogy; a third instalment (Pervert's Guide to 21st Century) is mentioned as in production.
Criticised for abandoning its comic stance at the climax with a false tragic sacrifice; the lie is in not persisting in the comic mode that alone is adequate to Holocaust horror.
Arrival film
Praised as a 'modest' but complex B-level science fiction film with a sophisticated temporal-loop structure.
The Mask film
Described as 'the truth of all these movies', the mask releases the true self rather than concealing it.
Dismissed as 'stupid shitty movie' but cited for its marine marching chants (the 'Eskimo pussies' song).
The Wire tv
David Simon's claim that it is a 'forty-hour movie' is endorsed; part of the new TV-as-cinema tendency Žižek values over blockbusters.
Described as 'Socialist Republic Manhattan' via the Bane storyline; Žižek has a 'soft spot' for it.
Kolyma Tales book
Preferred over Solzhenitsyn for its non-moralising, Hemingway-like style in depicting the Gulag.
Joker (2019 film) film
Criticised (without having seen it) for giving a social-psychological genesis to Joker, the 'wrong approach' for a character who should be an inexplicable miracle.
Full Metal Jacket film
Referenced as illustration of military obscenity-as-training, though Žižek notes the Yugoslav army's obscene supplement was even more pervasive.
Watched some of the final season; defends Daenerys's 'kill them all' turn and notes the show is 'consciously ambiguous', after her death the council resumes business as usual.
A Higher Loyalty book
Used as a foil: Comey's sincerely held 'higher loyalty' ideology is presented as more frightening than Trump's corrupt opportunism because it can enable institutional rights violations without personal malice.
Praised as 'Chinese Antonioni', quiet, non-dissident depiction of despair around the Three Gorges Dam flooding.
Black Panther film
Did not see it; reads it against the grain, Killmonger as the true good guy, the CIA alliance with the black king as ideological betrayal of African sovereignty.
Captive State film
Described as 'wonderfully leftist', alien occupation as allegory of capitalist extraction with local collaborators; John Goodman in a tragic non-comic role.
Gymnopédies song
Favourite background music; the paradox that this apparently bourgeois music was composed by a Communist Party member vindicates Žižek's anti-surface-reading thesis.
The Thin Blue Line film
Errol Morris documentary; quoted all the time for the prosecutor line about getting an innocent man condemned.
Roma film
Dismissed as 'pretentious' without having seen it.
Unbreakable film
Praised as a 'counter-Joker' film for its more interesting premise of the hero resisting acceptance of his superhero identity.
Praised for employing sixty historians to reconstruct historical settings (Jerusalem 1130, Rome 13th century); used as evidence that video games have legitimate narrative and educational potential.
Avengers: Endgame film
Watched with his sons in a big cinema; found it absolutely boring, representative of the blockbuster spectacle he cannot engage with.
Watches with wife in evenings; finds it fascinating but admits he does not yet have a good theory for what draws him to it.
Favourite Scandinavian noir; small Icelandic town, avalanche, murder, dark atmosphere.
Praised as shocking near-future extrapolation of current trends (racist populism, neural interfaces), 'our world just a little bit extrapolated.'
People invoked 37
Alfonso Cuarón negative
Roma dismissed as 'pretentious' without Žižek having seen it, consistent with his Hegelian-idealist method.
Elie Wiesel negative
Implicitly contrasted unfavourably with Primo Levi; represents the canonical but in Žižek's view less honest tragic-dignified approach to Holocaust memoir.
Primo Levi positive
Žižek uses Levi's Auschwitz memoir as evidence that extreme horror contains an irreducible comic dimension (the selection scene); prefers Levi to Elie Wiesel as more honest.
Roberto Benigni negative
Life is Beautiful criticised for abandoning its comic stance at the climax, falling back into false tragic dignity when the logic of the horror demanded sustained comedy.
Marine Le Pen negative
Named as a European populist he would never support, in contrast to his qualified position on Trump.
Cited only in relation to Peterson naming him as a 'Marxist' in the American academy, Žižek treats this as evidence of Peterson's intellectual superficiality.
Edward Snowden positive
Grouped with Assange and Manning as admirable for exposing systemic rather than personal violations.
James Comey negative
Used as a foil: someone personally probably more honest than Trump but representing a scarier ideology, 'higher loyalty' sincerity that enables institutional violations of rights without requiring personal corruption.
Jacques Lacan positive
Described as 'my psychoanalytic teacher now dead'; used as example of full identification with one's mask, the same in private as in public performance.
Steven Weinberg positive
Quoted for the line 'without religion good people would be good and bad people bad; to make good people do bad things you need religion.'
Grouped with Trump as a European practitioner of the same obscene populist political style; Žižek says he would never have supported Johnson, unlike Trump.
Stieg Larsson positive
Cited as exemplar of Scandinavian noir that surfaces the silent despair beneath the social-democratic welfare state surface.
Erik Satie positive
Favourite background music (Gymnopédies); admired doubly because the apparently bourgeois composer died a member of the French Communist Party Central Committee.
Henning Mankell positive
Grouped with Larsson as part of the Scandinavian noir tradition that reveals darkness beneath social-democratic happiness.
Varlam Shalamov positive
Praised over Solzhenitsyn; Kolyma Tales described as written in the style of early Hemingway, flat, factual, without moralising, as the truthful account of the Gulag.
Donald Trump positive
Personally finds Trump a moral disgrace, but treats him as symptomatically useful: his election cracked the bipartisan consensus and enabled the revival of the left; the 'wild Keynesian' analysis treats Trump's economic policy as instructive.
Christopher Nolan positive
Dark Knight praised for its handling of Joker's inconsistent origin stories and Bane's political allegory.
Chelsea Manning positive
Grouped with Assange and Snowden as admirable whistleblowers.
Marlon Brando negative
Disliked as an exemplar of Actors Studio psychological acting, the antithesis of the mask-as-truth thesis.
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn negative
Peterson cites Solzhenitsyn; Žižek dismisses him as 'a pathetic fake' compared with Varlam Shalamov's Kolyma Tales, which he regards as more honest.
Bernie Sanders positive
Žižek's preferred candidate; praised for representing old-fashioned decency and for mobilising disaffected white working-class voters who might otherwise vote Trump; programme described as merely standard European social democracy.
Julian Assange positive
Part of a 'triad' (with Snowden and Manning) Žižek admires for exposing the anonymous institutional apparatus of surveillance rather than focusing on individual corruption.
Jim Carrey positive
Appreciates him very much; The Mask is described as 'the truth of all these [superhero] movies' for its illustration of the mask-as-authentic-self thesis.
Grouped with Derrida as an alleged 'Marxist' by Peterson; cited to illustrate Peterson's confused understanding of the academic left.
Jia Zhangke positive
Chinese director praised for Still Life and other films depicting silent despair of daily life without direct dissidence, called 'Chinese Antonioni'.
M. Night Shyamalan positive
Unbreakable praised as a 'counter-Joker movie' for its more interesting premise: the hero resists accepting that he is a superhero rather than simply embodying a mask.
Ernst Lubitsch positive
Called 'the real thing' of old Hollywood; Trouble in Paradise singled out as 'breathtaking'; organised Lubitsch colloquia in Ljubljana and Berlin.
Errol Morrison positive
Director of The Thin Blue Line; the film's line about a skilled prosecutor getting an innocent man condemned is a favourite Žižek quotation about mastery through perversion of function.
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez positive
Part of 'the Squad'; Žižek argues the left's strength lies in combining the Squad's energy with Sanders's appeal to disaffected white working-class voters.
Polish arch-Catholic conservative nationalist who used crude military obscenity on state TV; used as example of European right-wing populism's strategic deployment of vulgarity.
Greta Thunberg positive
Praised for aggressive, non-negotiating style, called an exemplar of 'toxic masculinity' in a positive sense; seen as the correct political posture for the left on ecology.
Jordan Peterson negative
Debated him in Toronto; credits him with a grain of truth (individual agency, acting rather than complaining) but dismisses his academic references (Derrida, Foucault as 'Marxists') as ignorant; says he does not care about Peterson's private self.
Joe Biden negative
Criticised through his wife's statement that he is electable despite having no good health programme, the 'all shit compromise but he's electable' stance that Žižek regards as a losing strategy.
Hillary Clinton negative
Blamed for losing to Trump partly by manipulating the Sanders campaign; her centrism and lack of inspiring programme seen as fatal strategic errors.
David Simon positive
Creator of The Wire; cited for claiming the prestige TV series should be thought of as a forty-hour movie, a format Žižek endorses.
Vladimir Putin positive
Criticised as Trump's 'great friend' and authoritarian; but his calculated deployment of apparent spontaneous vulgarity is analysed as a sophisticated political strategy the left should understand.
Cary Grant positive
Named as favourite actor precisely because he is non-psychological, acts himself without Actors Studio introspection, consistent with Žižek's anti-authenticity thesis.
What it argues
the truth of the mask versus the authentic selfobscenity as political and social glueTrump as symptom and opportunity for the leftBernie Sanders and the reinvention of the leftcomedy and horror at the limit of tragedythe left's need to reclaim moral-aesthetic terrainB-level science fiction and Scandinavian noir as political art
Dialectical moves 8
“The truth is in the mask, not behind it; the everyday face is the true mask.”
Paradox of authenticity inverted: what we usually call the mask (persona, performance) is where truth resides, while the 'authentic' private self is the real disguise.
“Far from being subversive, military obscenity is the very cement of military authority.”
What looks like transgression or ironic distance from power is actually a required supplement that stabilises the institution.
“The true joke of Trump is not his dirty talk but his serious patriotism—'Make America Great Again' is the real obscenity.”
Inverts the expected register: Trump's vulgar provocations are the performative-comic layer, while his sincere nationalist appeals are the obscene core.
“The more radical candidate can be more electable, not less; Trump himself proved the unelectable can win.”
Reverses the centrist logic that radicalism is electorally fatal by pointing to Trump's own trajectory as a counter-example.
“When horror reaches its extreme, tragedy becomes false and comedy becomes the only honest response.”
The aesthetic hierarchy is inverted at the limit: the most serious, most catastrophic events demand comedy rather than tragic dignity.
“Trump's biggest ally is the liberal media that endlessly criticise him.”
The apparent opposition (liberal media vs. Trump) is revealed as functional complicity: personalised mockery reinforces solidarity with Trump rather than undermining it.
“The intimate stories we tell ourselves about ourselves are usually a fake; truth is in what we do.”
Inverts the hermeneutic of depth: inner narrative is ideology, outward action is truth.
“It takes a very good prosecutor to get an innocent man condemned—the highest skill lies in the perverse inversion of its proper function.”
Quoted from Errol Morris's Thin Blue Line to illuminate how mastery of a technique is revealed in its misuse, not its correct use.
Claims 18
asserts
The truth of a person lies in their mask—in what they do and perform—not in any private self supposedly hidden behind it.identity, authenticity, psychoanalysis
rejects
Giving a social-psychological genesis to a villain like Joker is the wrong approach; figures of radical evil emerge as contingent miracles, not as necessary products of circumstances.Joker (2019 film), origins narratives
asserts
Dirty jokes and obscenity can function as genuine expressions of solidarity rather than racist or misogynist aggression, when deployed in the right relational context.jokes, obscenity, solidarity
reframes
The alt-right has appropriated the rebellious obscenity that once belonged to the left, and the left's correct response is not to reclaim that obscenity but to occupy the field of moral decency.left politics, obscenity, Trump, alt-right
reframes
Trump's patriotic rhetoric—not his vulgar provocations—is the true obscenity, and Democrats should mock the former rather than the latter.Trump, political strategy
asserts
Jordan Peterson contains a grain of truth that the left wrongly dismisses: the call for individual agency and against passive self-victimisation.Jordan Peterson, left politics
asserts
Trump's election was a net gain for the left because it disrupted the hegemonic bipartisan consensus and enabled the revival of a more radical left represented by Sanders and the Squad.Trump, US electoral politics, left strategy
rejects
Electability-centrist reasoning is self-defeating because Trump himself was considered unelectable, and inspiring mobilisation beats triangulation toward an imaginary median voter.electability, Democratic primary strategy
asserts
The left should not fear deficit spending; World War II proved that massive state investment in ostensibly non-productive ends can revive an economy and increase private consumption.Keynesian economics, left economic policy
reframes
Impeaching or endlessly mocking Trump as a corrupt individual is the wrong target; the real problem is the anonymous institutional apparatus of digital surveillance and state power that operates regardless of who occupies the presidency.Trump, impeachment, NSA, digital surveillance
asserts
The intimate stories people tell about themselves are usually false; truth is in what they do, not in psychological self-narration.subjectivity, ideology, psychoanalysis
asserts
When atrocity reaches a nightmarish scale, tragedy is an aesthetically false response and comedy—bewildered, self-mocking—is the only honest one.Holocaust, tragedy, comedy, aesthetics
reframes
Bernie Sanders's programme is no more radical than standard European social democracy from half a century ago, making the 'Venezuela' label absurd.Bernie Sanders, socialism, US politics
asserts
Liberal media that focus on Trump's personal vulgarity are Trump's greatest allies because they reinforce his base's solidarity without offering a political alternative.media, Trump, liberal criticism
asserts
Killmonger in Black Panther is the true good guy of the film; the movie's overt message is undermined by its own narrative logic.Black Panther, ideology in film
asserts
Daenerys in Game of Thrones should be read sympathetically—'kill them all' is a defensible revolutionary stance given the show's political logic.Game of Thrones, political violence in fiction
rejects
Military obscene rituals (homosexual innuendo, dirty chants) are not subversive; they are a necessary supplement that stabilises rather than undermines military authority.irony and subversion, military culture
asserts
The left's strength against Trump would be to form a coalition between the Squad and Sanders, combining marginalised minority energy with disaffected white working-class voters.Bernie Sanders, AOC/Squad, electoral strategy
Quotes 15
“Nothing happened to me, I happened to the world, in the world.”Slavoj Žižek · refusal of psychological origin narrative
“My big dogma is that there is more truth in the mask than in alleged authentic person whatever bullshit.”Slavoj Žižek · the mask as truth
“The truth is in what you are doing.”Slavoj Žižek · action over self-narrative as site of truth
“Without religion good people would be good and bad people bad. To make good people do bad things you need religion.”Slavoj Žižek · religion as enabler of moral transgression
“I cannot even imagine a true friendship solidarity with others without sharing small obscenities.”Slavoj Žižek · obscenity as constitutive of authentic solidarity
“Fake lies are most dangerous when they incorporate into their narrative elements of truth.”Slavoj Žižek · the logic of effective propaganda
“Trump is not moral majority; if anything Bernie Sanders is a figure of traditional decency.”Slavoj Žižek · inversion of Trump/Sanders moral register
“It takes a very good prosecutor to get an innocent guy condemned.”Slavoj Žižek · mastery revealed in perversion of proper function
“If today you repeat what European social democracy said half a century ago you are Venezuela, communist whatever.”Slavoj Žižek · collapse of the Overton window on the left
“Trump is the wild Keynesian. Trump's politics economic in so far as it works it's absolutely not this neoliberalist austerity.”Slavoj Žižek · Trump as practitioner of state Keynesianism despite neoliberal rhetoric
“Trump's biggest ally are these liberal media which criticize him but exactly in this wrong way.”Slavoj Žižek · liberal anti-Trump criticism as functional support
“These spontaneous vulgar outbursts are the best planned planned in detail outbursts of Putin.”Slavoj Žižek · political obscenity as calculated performance
“Military discipline for itself doesn't work it has to be supplemented by obscene rituals.”Slavoj Žižek · obscene supplement as structural requirement of formal authority
“When things get really nightmareish it must be a comedy but this comedy doesn't mean I make laugh of it—it means I'm so perplexed that it would be a fake to adopt this dignified tragic stance.”Slavoj Žižek · comedy as the only honest response to extreme horror
“I'm here a Hegelian idealist. I read about the movie, an idea came for me. Then I'm afraid to see the movie, it may spoil my idea.”Slavoj Žižek · Hegelian idealism as method of film criticism
Transcript 125 turns
unknown
Okay, I'm losing track. I agree. Do I have to hold it? Can I? He's got to hold it very close. Very. Like right, right here, like right where he's speaking.
Okay, I'm losing track. I agree. Do I have to hold it? Can I? He's got to hold it very close. Very. Like right, right here, like right where he's speaking.
Slavoj Žižek
You, is that that that light jumping up or whatever? Yeah, yeah. Because it already happened to me, you know. I gave a long interview, I was sweating like a pig and then the guy told me, sorry, it didn't work,
You, is that that that light jumping up or whatever? Yeah, yeah. Because it already happened to me, you know. I gave a long interview, I was sweating like a pig and then the guy told me, sorry, it didn't work,
unknown
can we repeat? I said fuck you, you know. We have a pretty good track record. But this will
can we repeat? I said fuck you, you know. We have a pretty good track record. But this will
Slavoj Žižek
not go live so you can
not go live so you can
unknown
manipulate. Exactly. That's good because
manipulate. Exactly. That's good because
Slavoj Žižek
I get lost, repetitive, blah blah blah. You be my Stalinist
I get lost, repetitive, blah blah blah. You be my Stalinist
unknown
master who... oh thanks. Since I believe in censorship, censorship is the most noble thing humanity invented. You in the U.S.
master who... oh thanks. Since I believe in censorship, censorship is the most noble thing humanity invented. You in the U.S.
Slavoj Žižek
learned a couple of years ago the lesson from from Soviet Union. You remember who was it, Janet Jackson, there was that provocation...
learned a couple of years ago the lesson from from Soviet Union. You remember who was it, Janet Jackson, there was that provocation...
unknown
yeah the Super Bowl. And
yeah the Super Bowl. And
Slavoj Žižek
then they introduced also in your live sports, or how do you call it when they render it on TV, you know this one and a half second delay. So that somebody is watching, but this is the old Soviet invention. Always in Soviet Union they were afraid of some provocation, even if it's First of May parade or whatever. They... I talk too much. Okay. I hope they will... so it's arranged. They will allow us to be here.
then they introduced also in your live sports, or how do you call it when they render it on TV, you know this one and a half second delay. So that somebody is watching, but this is the old Soviet invention. Always in Soviet Union they were afraid of some provocation, even if it's First of May parade or whatever. They... I talk too much. Okay. I hope they will... so it's arranged. They will allow us to be here.
unknown
Yeah, the bartender said it was okay.
Yeah, the bartender said it was okay.
Slavoj Žižek
Oh yeah, okay but yeah. Okay, okay, so let's... we have somebody to refer to. Now we really should... please, yes. All right. Oh sorry, it's him or him? I thought, no, who is the boss? Don't mix. I am a good slave, but I like to know who
Oh yeah, okay but yeah. Okay, okay, so let's... we have somebody to refer to. Now we really should... please, yes. All right. Oh sorry, it's him or him? I thought, no, who is the boss? Don't mix. I am a good slave, but I like to know who
unknown
is the master. I'll be the master in this case. I'll be a... you know these guys can chime in as they see fit. We'll be the daddy. I'll be the daddy here. Very good. So, yes, as you've probably already discerned, we're talking to Slavoj Žižek and I'd like to begin by saying one of the things that I most admired you for was back when you were teaching here in New York City at the New School, you famously said, I don't want to read papers, don't give me anything, I hate students because like the majority of people they are boring idiots and I cannot imagine a worse experience than some idiot comes and starts to ask you questions. So, keeping that in mind, have you seen the new Joker movie and if so, your thoughts? I...
is the master. I'll be the master in this case. I'll be a... you know these guys can chime in as they see fit. We'll be the daddy. I'll be the daddy here. Very good. So, yes, as you've probably already discerned, we're talking to Slavoj Žižek and I'd like to begin by saying one of the things that I most admired you for was back when you were teaching here in New York City at the New School, you famously said, I don't want to read papers, don't give me anything, I hate students because like the majority of people they are boring idiots and I cannot imagine a worse experience than some idiot comes and starts to ask you questions. So, keeping that in mind, have you seen the new Joker movie and if so, your thoughts? I...
Slavoj Žižek
now now I will fall even deep into criminal activity. I haven't because I have an ethical principle. My country is as your beloved president would have put it, a shithole of a country. Small country, which means you can freely download pirate copies. Nobody controls it. We are not of interest to big companies. And so I'm waiting for a good copy to be freely available to download. And here, here I don't want to download it here so I haven't yet seen it but I read about it. And this doesn't prevent me from having an opinion on the movie. Nor should it. Because because you know that about it's about fifty-fifty. Half of the movies I write about I haven't seen them. No, I'm here a Hegelian idealist. I read about the movie, an idea came for me. Then I'm afraid to see the movie, it may spoil my idea. You see that it's a little bit... for example the one Black Panther. Yeah. I wrote about it, I didn't see it. Roma, Cuarón, pretentious.
now now I will fall even deep into criminal activity. I haven't because I have an ethical principle. My country is as your beloved president would have put it, a shithole of a country. Small country, which means you can freely download pirate copies. Nobody controls it. We are not of interest to big companies. And so I'm waiting for a good copy to be freely available to download. And here, here I don't want to download it here so I haven't yet seen it but I read about it. And this doesn't prevent me from having an opinion on the movie. Nor should it. Because because you know that about it's about fifty-fifty. Half of the movies I write about I haven't seen them. No, I'm here a Hegelian idealist. I read about the movie, an idea came for me. Then I'm afraid to see the movie, it may spoil my idea. You see that it's a little bit... for example the one Black Panther. Yeah. I wrote about it, I didn't see it. Roma, Cuarón, pretentious.
unknown
I didn't see it
I didn't see it
Slavoj Žižek
and so on. So but but from what I've heard I would be totally basically, I'm not saying I know the main actor is good blah blah blah but you know why opposed it? Because if I'm informed correctly the movie tries to give some kind of social psychological genesis of Joker. The desperate circumstances blah blah all that stuff. I think with these negative superheroes this is precisely the wrong approach. You cannot account for them in this way. They are kind of a miracle. They are of course effect of certain causes but a contingent effect. The majority of people don't become Jokers you know even if they suffer in the same way. I remember here a line from I think Hannibal Lecter says when they investigate him when he is in prison how could you become Lecter? He they the police psychologist looked into what happened to you what trauma so that you became. And he he gives a beautiful answer. He says nothing happened to me, I happened to the world, in the world. And it's the same with Joker who is of course for me a positive guy, a good idea from the second Christopher Nolan movie. You know precisely if you read it it's as if that movie I think it's the second Christopher Nolan the Dark Knight where we have the famous Joker okay what I like there is that Joker often talks there about his origins but gives a series of inconsistent narratives. Once he says this then he says that, father beat him, father didn't beat him, whatever. And I think this is a nice way of mocking this history of origins. I don't believe in them. I think something always emerges something new as a miracle. Second thing why I think Joker is a good Marxist there. You know he is not he is precisely fully identified with his mask. It's wrong to look for the real person behind. It's and I admire persons who don't play this dirty game. That's how you always that's how you succeed legitimizing brutal dictators. That you say and you can of course say about anybody. I'm sure Hitler probably liked small children and his dog and cats and whatever. No of course if you look closely every no matter how bad guy had at some level a good warm heart for something and so on. That's the wrong approach. The truth is in your mask. What the truth is in what you are doing. So that's why my psychoanalytic teacher now dead Jacques Lacan my favorite anecdote about him is the following one. He acted publicly in a very affected way this complex French phrase he was playing a role. Then I knew some people who knew Lacan intimately and asked them okay do you discover then a private person he can be funny ordinary they told me no, in private he is exactly the same. I like people who you search in vain for a mask of humanity and so on and so on. I don't believe in this. This is why let me make another jump it's all the same line of associations why one of the these politically correct multiculturalist statements that make me explode in rage is it takes an enemy is somebody to whose story we were not ready to listen. So I always say ah that's good to know Hitler is our enemy because we were not ready to you know. And my point is not only that that that his story was also horrible intimately my point is that I think the intimate stories we are telling ourselves about ourselves are usually a fake. The truth is in what we are doing. For example going to my ex-country Yugoslavia in general I was years ago obsessed by the motive that behind every terrible crime ethnic crime ethnic cleansing and so on there is a poet. A poet or a religious leader because you know it's difficult for people to be directly evil as Steve Weinberg the quantum cosmologist said without religion good people would be good and bad people bad. To make you need religion if you want good people make bad things. You have to offer them a strong vision and so on and that's why again I don't buy all this stuff and that's for me the the truth of the truth of Joker. He stands for this absolute identification with the mask. Now you will say but wait a minute in Batman Nolan's, his demand is I will continue to commit crimes in Gotham City till super till sorry Batman takes off his mask. But I think the point is not let's see the real Batman. He gets it that the whole power of Batman is in his mask and so he wants to like destroy Batman. You know which movie is the truth of all this? My favorite Jim Carrey and I appreciate him very much I'm very sad that now he goes down The Mask. Do you see he is an ordinary weak guy he puts a mask he becomes like a character from cartoons and so on. I always my big dogma is that there is more truth in the mask than it was than in alleged authentic person whatever bullshit. That's why I'm not against any this psychological genesis. But you know which is for me a true counter-Joker movie? Did you see I quite like it that Shyamalan's second Unbreakable. Yes yes I did. There the point is not mask what is behind the mask the point is that the superhero Bruce Willis cannot accept that he is a superhero. Yeah. And his problem is my God am I real he resists it. That's a more interesting topic. But Joker in the movie they opted for this old-fashioned genesis of what happened to him it's a false approach. But maybe I will see it although if we you cut it short and so on but no the movie the Mask starring Jim Carrey that's that's that's the truth of all these movies. Yes. That's the one that I like. And it's even psychologically it's deeply true. I know it from my experience how masks work maybe I was an evil father although my sons love me. When one of my sons was small I approached him with a mask. He was afraid. Then I put the mask off like hi look your old stupid cunt face of a daddy is here. He laughed. Now comes the mystery. So he knew what is behind the mask. Then I put the mask on he was afraid again. He was right psychologically because I think that in a way it's a much more refined psychological mechanism. I think the true mask is our everyday stupid face. There are all our restraints limitations fears act. But if you put the mask on it means I can drop my control. Paradoxically a mask means I can be who I really am. Even my psychoanalytic friends told me that's why you can tell things to the psychoanalyst which you would never have said to those who are close to you. It's a foreigner you know you you gain a distance. And that's why also people like to confess in others whom they don't know. I take this quite seriously but again Taxi Driver things like that. Yeah yeah although I never do this I don't like to confide in general I'm a pessimist here I hate I never wanted applied to me psychoanalysis. My idea is this one. If you look deep into myself as in any person you discover some disgusting deep shit. All the petty egotisms and so on so let's leave it there. Let's okay I talk too much go on. Along those lines from the Joker to the larger concept of Joker sorry but which one which one just a concluding remark if you go on in the same series I have a soft spot more for the third one. What is Bane? Bane, the Dark Knight Rises. You know there you go Bane this is Socialist Republic Manhattan. It's the same it's the same as my reading of Black Panther. The only way to redeem the movie is to read it that between the lines the message is Killmonger is the good guy. Killmonger is the true good guy. By far easily the good guy. Easily the good guy by unquestioningly so. But you know how all those listen do I live in an alternate world or what that how all my black friends said wonderful black power. But the movie almost openly signals this lie. Do you remember how the only guy that the good black king trusts is the CIA agent. The CIA. No that movie recast the like sort of struggle for like African nationalism sovereignty and made the CIA their ally in that struggle. Basically retells like the Congo and like Killmonger is Patrice Lumumba. Yes yeah precisely. Yes yes you know but you know which is my did you read my piece? Where I I think it found more echo in Europe. You know which of my piece interpretations along these lines I gave it the same twist. My just okay it's a too low I watched just some of the episode it's too much of the last season Game of Thrones. Daenerys is my lady, kill them all. Pretty good right? Pretty good yes and the series is I think you saw the last episode. Yeah we did. Yeah we only. The series is consciously ambiguous there because did you
and so on. So but but from what I've heard I would be totally basically, I'm not saying I know the main actor is good blah blah blah but you know why opposed it? Because if I'm informed correctly the movie tries to give some kind of social psychological genesis of Joker. The desperate circumstances blah blah all that stuff. I think with these negative superheroes this is precisely the wrong approach. You cannot account for them in this way. They are kind of a miracle. They are of course effect of certain causes but a contingent effect. The majority of people don't become Jokers you know even if they suffer in the same way. I remember here a line from I think Hannibal Lecter says when they investigate him when he is in prison how could you become Lecter? He they the police psychologist looked into what happened to you what trauma so that you became. And he he gives a beautiful answer. He says nothing happened to me, I happened to the world, in the world. And it's the same with Joker who is of course for me a positive guy, a good idea from the second Christopher Nolan movie. You know precisely if you read it it's as if that movie I think it's the second Christopher Nolan the Dark Knight where we have the famous Joker okay what I like there is that Joker often talks there about his origins but gives a series of inconsistent narratives. Once he says this then he says that, father beat him, father didn't beat him, whatever. And I think this is a nice way of mocking this history of origins. I don't believe in them. I think something always emerges something new as a miracle. Second thing why I think Joker is a good Marxist there. You know he is not he is precisely fully identified with his mask. It's wrong to look for the real person behind. It's and I admire persons who don't play this dirty game. That's how you always that's how you succeed legitimizing brutal dictators. That you say and you can of course say about anybody. I'm sure Hitler probably liked small children and his dog and cats and whatever. No of course if you look closely every no matter how bad guy had at some level a good warm heart for something and so on. That's the wrong approach. The truth is in your mask. What the truth is in what you are doing. So that's why my psychoanalytic teacher now dead Jacques Lacan my favorite anecdote about him is the following one. He acted publicly in a very affected way this complex French phrase he was playing a role. Then I knew some people who knew Lacan intimately and asked them okay do you discover then a private person he can be funny ordinary they told me no, in private he is exactly the same. I like people who you search in vain for a mask of humanity and so on and so on. I don't believe in this. This is why let me make another jump it's all the same line of associations why one of the these politically correct multiculturalist statements that make me explode in rage is it takes an enemy is somebody to whose story we were not ready to listen. So I always say ah that's good to know Hitler is our enemy because we were not ready to you know. And my point is not only that that that his story was also horrible intimately my point is that I think the intimate stories we are telling ourselves about ourselves are usually a fake. The truth is in what we are doing. For example going to my ex-country Yugoslavia in general I was years ago obsessed by the motive that behind every terrible crime ethnic crime ethnic cleansing and so on there is a poet. A poet or a religious leader because you know it's difficult for people to be directly evil as Steve Weinberg the quantum cosmologist said without religion good people would be good and bad people bad. To make you need religion if you want good people make bad things. You have to offer them a strong vision and so on and that's why again I don't buy all this stuff and that's for me the the truth of the truth of Joker. He stands for this absolute identification with the mask. Now you will say but wait a minute in Batman Nolan's, his demand is I will continue to commit crimes in Gotham City till super till sorry Batman takes off his mask. But I think the point is not let's see the real Batman. He gets it that the whole power of Batman is in his mask and so he wants to like destroy Batman. You know which movie is the truth of all this? My favorite Jim Carrey and I appreciate him very much I'm very sad that now he goes down The Mask. Do you see he is an ordinary weak guy he puts a mask he becomes like a character from cartoons and so on. I always my big dogma is that there is more truth in the mask than it was than in alleged authentic person whatever bullshit. That's why I'm not against any this psychological genesis. But you know which is for me a true counter-Joker movie? Did you see I quite like it that Shyamalan's second Unbreakable. Yes yes I did. There the point is not mask what is behind the mask the point is that the superhero Bruce Willis cannot accept that he is a superhero. Yeah. And his problem is my God am I real he resists it. That's a more interesting topic. But Joker in the movie they opted for this old-fashioned genesis of what happened to him it's a false approach. But maybe I will see it although if we you cut it short and so on but no the movie the Mask starring Jim Carrey that's that's that's the truth of all these movies. Yes. That's the one that I like. And it's even psychologically it's deeply true. I know it from my experience how masks work maybe I was an evil father although my sons love me. When one of my sons was small I approached him with a mask. He was afraid. Then I put the mask off like hi look your old stupid cunt face of a daddy is here. He laughed. Now comes the mystery. So he knew what is behind the mask. Then I put the mask on he was afraid again. He was right psychologically because I think that in a way it's a much more refined psychological mechanism. I think the true mask is our everyday stupid face. There are all our restraints limitations fears act. But if you put the mask on it means I can drop my control. Paradoxically a mask means I can be who I really am. Even my psychoanalytic friends told me that's why you can tell things to the psychoanalyst which you would never have said to those who are close to you. It's a foreigner you know you you gain a distance. And that's why also people like to confess in others whom they don't know. I take this quite seriously but again Taxi Driver things like that. Yeah yeah although I never do this I don't like to confide in general I'm a pessimist here I hate I never wanted applied to me psychoanalysis. My idea is this one. If you look deep into myself as in any person you discover some disgusting deep shit. All the petty egotisms and so on so let's leave it there. Let's okay I talk too much go on. Along those lines from the Joker to the larger concept of Joker sorry but which one which one just a concluding remark if you go on in the same series I have a soft spot more for the third one. What is Bane? Bane, the Dark Knight Rises. You know there you go Bane this is Socialist Republic Manhattan. It's the same it's the same as my reading of Black Panther. The only way to redeem the movie is to read it that between the lines the message is Killmonger is the good guy. Killmonger is the true good guy. By far easily the good guy. Easily the good guy by unquestioningly so. But you know how all those listen do I live in an alternate world or what that how all my black friends said wonderful black power. But the movie almost openly signals this lie. Do you remember how the only guy that the good black king trusts is the CIA agent. The CIA. No that movie recast the like sort of struggle for like African nationalism sovereignty and made the CIA their ally in that struggle. Basically retells like the Congo and like Killmonger is Patrice Lumumba. Yes yeah precisely. Yes yes you know but you know which is my did you read my piece? Where I I think it found more echo in Europe. You know which of my piece interpretations along these lines I gave it the same twist. My just okay it's a too low I watched just some of the episode it's too much of the last season Game of Thrones. Daenerys is my lady, kill them all. Pretty good right? Pretty good yes and the series is I think you saw the last episode. Yeah we did. Yeah we only. The series is consciously ambiguous there because did you
unknown
notice how when after they liquidate her
notice how when after they liquidate her
Slavoj Žižek
and when this new council meets what they do they decide? Screw ordinary people the important thing is to reconstruct the army and the
and when this new council meets what they do they decide? Screw ordinary people the important thing is to reconstruct the army and the
unknown
brothels,
brothels,
Slavoj Žižek
prostitution. I mean they openly and you remember when one of them said what about the rights of those out they start to laugh oh will my dog also vote or horse or what. The movie goes and this is I think maybe the only way to redeem some of these big blockbusters to to see if there is maybe another opposite message. I stop, believe it or not. Well I like I said I wanted to ask you about the the concept of jokes and I've I've liked your idea that that jokes represent a kind of shared obscenity that we have as human beings as a... and I'm not saying
prostitution. I mean they openly and you remember when one of them said what about the rights of those out they start to laugh oh will my dog also vote or horse or what. The movie goes and this is I think maybe the only way to redeem some of these big blockbusters to to see if there is maybe another opposite message. I stop, believe it or not. Well I like I said I wanted to ask you about the the concept of jokes and I've I've liked your idea that that jokes represent a kind of shared obscenity that we have as human beings as a... and I'm not saying
unknown
automatically. Like I meet an old dignified lady who means nothing bad oh I tell her a dirty joke. How about smash a pie in her face? I'm not saying
automatically. Like I meet an old dignified lady who means nothing bad oh I tell her a dirty joke. How about smash a pie in her face? I'm not saying
unknown
you do this. What I am saying is that in my experience jokes and you cannot define them you cannot determine their scope in advance like oh but they must be correct jokes. No jokes are here to hurt to make fun my of people.
you do this. What I am saying is that in my experience jokes and you cannot define them you cannot determine their scope in advance like oh but they must be correct jokes. No jokes are here to hurt to make fun my of people.
Slavoj Žižek
My solution is universalize them. The only way to really fight racism is to universalize it and maybe you know this line of mine I remember before nationalist tensions in ex-Yugoslavia this was the most beautiful moment of what officially was called brotherhood solidarity of Yugoslav nations we were telling jokes like crazy but mostly about our own nation. I remember the joke you told which was I think it was how does a Montenegrin have sex... how how does he masturbate... and it's... yeah but there are others I will not go into them much much much nastier they would have arrested you and me. But what I'm saying is that this functioned as pure solidarity. It functions. No I think you can tell the dirtiest joke but but if you tell it in the right way if it's meant ironically towards yourself and so on and so on it can work again I cannot even imagine a true friendship solidarity with others without sharing small obscenities. And you know I will give you a proof how my friends accept me at this level. I had a friend who was constant butt of my dirty jokes and he then knew how to reply we were. Then at
My solution is universalize them. The only way to really fight racism is to universalize it and maybe you know this line of mine I remember before nationalist tensions in ex-Yugoslavia this was the most beautiful moment of what officially was called brotherhood solidarity of Yugoslav nations we were telling jokes like crazy but mostly about our own nation. I remember the joke you told which was I think it was how does a Montenegrin have sex... how how does he masturbate... and it's... yeah but there are others I will not go into them much much much nastier they would have arrested you and me. But what I'm saying is that this functioned as pure solidarity. It functions. No I think you can tell the dirtiest joke but but if you tell it in the right way if it's meant ironically towards yourself and so on and so on it can work again I cannot even imagine a true friendship solidarity with others without sharing small obscenities. And you know I will give you a proof how my friends accept me at this level. I had a friend who was constant butt of my dirty jokes and he then knew how to reply we were. Then at
unknown
some point I was really in a bad mood and when I stumbled upon him I didn't have the energy to tell jokes so I just friendly greeted him. And I learned then the guy was in a panic. He asked others is Slavoj mad at me why are there no insults and so on and so on. That's how that's all I I think that there is in this no politically correct control did I offend you
some point I was really in a bad mood and when I stumbled upon him I didn't have the energy to tell jokes so I just friendly greeted him. And I learned then the guy was in a panic. He asked others is Slavoj mad at me why are there no insults and so on and so on. That's how that's all I I think that there is in this no politically correct control did I offend you
Slavoj Žižek
with this with that there is something so terribly false it is as if you cannot really fight racism you can just control it tightly control yourself all the time look deeper. I use that expression but how do you know that that expression is not again an insult and so on. I I think that the true victory over racism would have been when you tell all the dirty jokes but they are experienced not as racist aggression but as solidarity and I think it works. Because also another thing I hate those left liberals who pretend we shouldn't offend minorities all that stuff. But did they ever have contact with real low class minorities and so on. They swim in obscenities and dirty jokes and so on. That's how I always establish a contact with taxi drivers. You cannot even mention what happened to me here in the United States with
with this with that there is something so terribly false it is as if you cannot really fight racism you can just control it tightly control yourself all the time look deeper. I use that expression but how do you know that that expression is not again an insult and so on. I I think that the true victory over racism would have been when you tell all the dirty jokes but they are experienced not as racist aggression but as solidarity and I think it works. Because also another thing I hate those left liberals who pretend we shouldn't offend minorities all that stuff. But did they ever have contact with real low class minorities and so on. They swim in obscenities and dirty jokes and so on. That's how I always establish a contact with taxi drivers. You cannot even mention what happened to me here in the United States with
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Indians with all those the only ones who are harsh I don't like them it's almost my own nation
Indians with all those the only ones who are harsh I don't like them it's almost my own nation
Slavoj Žižek
I don't know if you noticed this here. There are many Russians East Europe. They are can be violent I try to avoid them. They don't know New York me as a complete idiot already had to guide them you know. They even don't get this fundamental Manhattan system they always try to but what I'm saying what I'm saying is that the message of these insults it's not I hate you is a kind of a very naive message you see we are such good friends that even the worst insults only reassert our friendship. And and sorry but I'm not now saying we should just insult others and so on. Of course this works only in very specific conditions and so on. I just think from my own experience again that that there must be something like an obscenity to establish an authentic contact like cut the bullshit we are really close and so on and so on. What I'm getting at here is like you know we've we've talked on the show about how like in our current political moment here in America like you know broadly speaking liberals and the left have gotten just sort of doubled down on culture and entertainment as the realm in which you can exert power because politics has failed totally. Precisely precisely yes. Right. And in as far as like jokes and comedy goes there's this you know big question oh can you tell jokes anymore can anything be funny because of PC culture and then cancel culture and things like that. But we seem you know caught between this dichotomy on the one hand this very you know awful hectoring schoolmarmish you know don't say that don't offend this person on one hand and on the other a very sweaty kind of hamfisted attempt to provoke with you know base uh humor and offensiveness to provoke that very reaction. Yeah but the situation is here much more complex because when I was young 68-70s student rebellion the idea was those in power talk dirty. No sorry those to this is today those in power talk a fake dignified language and we rebellious leftist youth we should do like this fuck you to politicians to unmask their indecency and so on and so on. But something fundamentally changed now is the alt-right which rediscovered this obscenity of political speech and I'm not simply saying we should reappropriate it. What what I'm now very manipulative what the left should do I tried to do this in that unfortunate debate with Jordan Peterson. I'm going to ask you about that in a second but go ahead. Where where my point was this one because Jordan Peterson pretends to be this you know morally upright no postmodern and so on and so on and my point was sorry but Trump is for me the postmodern caricature of an obscene president. Trump is not moral majority if anything Bernie Sanders is a figure of traditional decency and so on. So it may look I often am in slight contradiction with what I just said but I would be tempted to say that with all this open obscenity practiced now by Trump and his guys maybe the left should adopt a much more moralistic role. The function of the left to ordinary people should be listen we understand you good Christians caring for ordinary decency we are the guys Trump is the obscene guy Trump is the true postmodern master who makes fun of himself and all that stuff all that stuff. And it's not only here with Trump Boris Johnson is playing the same game all around Europe. Even Christians now you probably don't know it I just I follow where these rules of indecency changed in Europe and I was shocked the most tasteless example it would have been maybe even too much for
I don't know if you noticed this here. There are many Russians East Europe. They are can be violent I try to avoid them. They don't know New York me as a complete idiot already had to guide them you know. They even don't get this fundamental Manhattan system they always try to but what I'm saying what I'm saying is that the message of these insults it's not I hate you is a kind of a very naive message you see we are such good friends that even the worst insults only reassert our friendship. And and sorry but I'm not now saying we should just insult others and so on. Of course this works only in very specific conditions and so on. I just think from my own experience again that that there must be something like an obscenity to establish an authentic contact like cut the bullshit we are really close and so on and so on. What I'm getting at here is like you know we've we've talked on the show about how like in our current political moment here in America like you know broadly speaking liberals and the left have gotten just sort of doubled down on culture and entertainment as the realm in which you can exert power because politics has failed totally. Precisely precisely yes. Right. And in as far as like jokes and comedy goes there's this you know big question oh can you tell jokes anymore can anything be funny because of PC culture and then cancel culture and things like that. But we seem you know caught between this dichotomy on the one hand this very you know awful hectoring schoolmarmish you know don't say that don't offend this person on one hand and on the other a very sweaty kind of hamfisted attempt to provoke with you know base uh humor and offensiveness to provoke that very reaction. Yeah but the situation is here much more complex because when I was young 68-70s student rebellion the idea was those in power talk dirty. No sorry those to this is today those in power talk a fake dignified language and we rebellious leftist youth we should do like this fuck you to politicians to unmask their indecency and so on and so on. But something fundamentally changed now is the alt-right which rediscovered this obscenity of political speech and I'm not simply saying we should reappropriate it. What what I'm now very manipulative what the left should do I tried to do this in that unfortunate debate with Jordan Peterson. I'm going to ask you about that in a second but go ahead. Where where my point was this one because Jordan Peterson pretends to be this you know morally upright no postmodern and so on and so on and my point was sorry but Trump is for me the postmodern caricature of an obscene president. Trump is not moral majority if anything Bernie Sanders is a figure of traditional decency and so on. So it may look I often am in slight contradiction with what I just said but I would be tempted to say that with all this open obscenity practiced now by Trump and his guys maybe the left should adopt a much more moralistic role. The function of the left to ordinary people should be listen we understand you good Christians caring for ordinary decency we are the guys Trump is the obscene guy Trump is the true postmodern master who makes fun of himself and all that stuff all that stuff. And it's not only here with Trump Boris Johnson is playing the same game all around Europe. Even Christians now you probably don't know it I just I follow where these rules of indecency changed in Europe and I was shocked the most tasteless example it would have been maybe even too much for
unknown
Trump I found in Poland. The boss of Poland is now Kaczyński. He is not formally the boss but he leads the ruling party
Trump I found in Poland. The boss of Poland is now Kaczyński. He is not formally the boss but he leads the ruling party
Slavoj Žižek
arch-Catholic conservative nationalist. And
arch-Catholic conservative nationalist. And
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in the last elections after or before no before the last he was asked what's your plan when you regain power and he answered
in the last elections after or before no before the last he was asked what's your plan when you regain power and he answered
Slavoj Žižek
with an extremely vulgar proverb in
with an extremely vulgar proverb in
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Polish "teraz kurwa my" which means now it's our turn to fuck the whore. It's this military expression when soldiers await in line to fuck the prostitute. And then the TV interviewer he said this on public state TV was shocked oh my God did you... he said no I insist I meant it and so
Polish "teraz kurwa my" which means now it's our turn to fuck the whore. It's this military expression when soldiers await in line to fuck the prostitute. And then the TV interviewer he said this on public state TV was shocked oh my God did you... he said no I insist I meant it and so
unknown
on like now you will see we will exert power and so on. So I think this obscenity works at two levels. On the one hand of course it's a primitive way for right-winger populist right-wing populists to show solidarity with to to show solidarity with ordinary people like you know we are not those elite guys and so on I'm like you I'm like you. On the other hand I think that Trump plays here a double game. Yes he tells dirty jokes makes fun but when he says I love America and all that stuff patriotic stuff he is very serious. You know it's strictly clear
on like now you will see we will exert power and so on. So I think this obscenity works at two levels. On the one hand of course it's a primitive way for right-winger populist right-wing populists to show solidarity with to to show solidarity with ordinary people like you know we are not those elite guys and so on I'm like you I'm like you. On the other hand I think that Trump plays here a double game. Yes he tells dirty jokes makes fun but when he says I love America and all that stuff patriotic stuff he is very serious. You know it's strictly clear
Slavoj Žižek
opposition in Trump when he is meant to be consciously obscene funny and incidentally his great friend Putin is doing the same. I once met a guy who knew a guy who was Putin's PR guy and Putin from time to time has a spontaneous outburst. He uses some dirty word and this guy confirmed my suspicion. These spontaneous vulgar outbursts are the best planned planned in detail outbursts of Putin. But I think the way maybe that would have worked against Trump is to to turn it around and to take seriously his obscenities but to mock as ridiculous his serious patriotic this the true joke of Trump is make America great again it's not when he does this grab by the pussy and so on and so on stuff you know. Yeah it's when he when he
opposition in Trump when he is meant to be consciously obscene funny and incidentally his great friend Putin is doing the same. I once met a guy who knew a guy who was Putin's PR guy and Putin from time to time has a spontaneous outburst. He uses some dirty word and this guy confirmed my suspicion. These spontaneous vulgar outbursts are the best planned planned in detail outbursts of Putin. But I think the way maybe that would have worked against Trump is to to turn it around and to take seriously his obscenities but to mock as ridiculous his serious patriotic this the true joke of Trump is make America great again it's not when he does this grab by the pussy and so on and so on stuff you know. Yeah it's when he when he
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hugs the
hugs the
Slavoj Žižek
American flag on stage. Yeah that's for me pure masturbatory obscenity and so on. If I were I would like to be that's gross we saw him doing it live. It is gross. I mean where is here I'm a conservative Christian where is some moral moral censorship committee. We need Jesse Helms to you know like put put a a curtain in front of that. Yeah and the way did you notice how when he embraces the flag he has this kind of a weird loving smile that's pure obscenity pure obscenity. His mouth gets very wet. Yeah yeah. Yeah so you brought him up I I wanted to ask you about it you know I guess a couple months ago you did the this debate with Jordan Peterson you know as a you know clash of the Titans first of all I want to say... No no you know where I even felt some solidarity with him. What clash of the Titans? We are both marginalized in the mainstream. Look at me you are maybe young enough not to remember this till six-seven years ago I almost regularly published op-eds in New York Times. Now I'm totally prohibited there. Then even the left-wing in these times the Chicago Journal totally prohibited I had an incorrect stance on refugees and so on prohibited. So did you notice this that the only medium in the United States where they publish me it's a very marginal digital one it's it's the Los Angeles Review of Books Philosophical Salon. I'm I'm out. It's like a bad joke Los Angeles Review of Books. Yeah yeah yeah. Although don't underestimate Los Angeles I'm now sick and tired of San Francisco the big competition. Sure. Los Angeles... San Francisco they think it's like Harvard University. They think they are the center of the world they are not. But what to say the same thing happened in in the UK. Guardian up till three years ago I was regularly there almost at least every second week. Now I'm totally prohibited. Even the leftist London Review of Books the New Left Review I'm prohibited. I'm now totally in... So I laughed at this two Titans but I'm even more I'm even more marginalized than him. Now now why I did it. I did it the main reason I accepted it one was purely narcissistic. He challenged me yeah and then you know anytime anywhere whatever and I got many replies from people oh you chickened out are you afraid and so on. I just wanted to prove sorry guys I am not afraid. Second thing is a much more subtle one. I think that as it's all always the problem with our most radical and effective enemies they they hit a grain of truth. You know that's also my formula of fake lies. Fake lies are most dangerous when they incorporate into their narrative elements of truth. So like incidentally but I don't want to go into like I know people who know people who know Joe Biden they said okay Trump is disgusting but Biden's son is corrupt. They all tell yes yes. Yes yes so let's go on. I mean what I got a job for fifty grand a month doing natural gas in the Ukraine. I'm just it's not just me. Oh hey guys yeah yeah. No but going back my idea was this one. Don't dismiss all of Jordan Peterson. Many people who are for him like this basic message don't just complain pull yourself together act decide and so on. Don't live passively. Yeah now what's wrong about this? And it's a tragedy to leave this to right-wingers this motive. I think there is a problem with this self-victimizing complaining liberal left left. I what this is why I also that's my last provocation I'm already attacked in Europe I like this Greta Thunberg and I asked them why? Because she is I think the best example of
American flag on stage. Yeah that's for me pure masturbatory obscenity and so on. If I were I would like to be that's gross we saw him doing it live. It is gross. I mean where is here I'm a conservative Christian where is some moral moral censorship committee. We need Jesse Helms to you know like put put a a curtain in front of that. Yeah and the way did you notice how when he embraces the flag he has this kind of a weird loving smile that's pure obscenity pure obscenity. His mouth gets very wet. Yeah yeah. Yeah so you brought him up I I wanted to ask you about it you know I guess a couple months ago you did the this debate with Jordan Peterson you know as a you know clash of the Titans first of all I want to say... No no you know where I even felt some solidarity with him. What clash of the Titans? We are both marginalized in the mainstream. Look at me you are maybe young enough not to remember this till six-seven years ago I almost regularly published op-eds in New York Times. Now I'm totally prohibited there. Then even the left-wing in these times the Chicago Journal totally prohibited I had an incorrect stance on refugees and so on prohibited. So did you notice this that the only medium in the United States where they publish me it's a very marginal digital one it's it's the Los Angeles Review of Books Philosophical Salon. I'm I'm out. It's like a bad joke Los Angeles Review of Books. Yeah yeah yeah. Although don't underestimate Los Angeles I'm now sick and tired of San Francisco the big competition. Sure. Los Angeles... San Francisco they think it's like Harvard University. They think they are the center of the world they are not. But what to say the same thing happened in in the UK. Guardian up till three years ago I was regularly there almost at least every second week. Now I'm totally prohibited. Even the leftist London Review of Books the New Left Review I'm prohibited. I'm now totally in... So I laughed at this two Titans but I'm even more I'm even more marginalized than him. Now now why I did it. I did it the main reason I accepted it one was purely narcissistic. He challenged me yeah and then you know anytime anywhere whatever and I got many replies from people oh you chickened out are you afraid and so on. I just wanted to prove sorry guys I am not afraid. Second thing is a much more subtle one. I think that as it's all always the problem with our most radical and effective enemies they they hit a grain of truth. You know that's also my formula of fake lies. Fake lies are most dangerous when they incorporate into their narrative elements of truth. So like incidentally but I don't want to go into like I know people who know people who know Joe Biden they said okay Trump is disgusting but Biden's son is corrupt. They all tell yes yes. Yes yes so let's go on. I mean what I got a job for fifty grand a month doing natural gas in the Ukraine. I'm just it's not just me. Oh hey guys yeah yeah. No but going back my idea was this one. Don't dismiss all of Jordan Peterson. Many people who are for him like this basic message don't just complain pull yourself together act decide and so on. Don't live passively. Yeah now what's wrong about this? And it's a tragedy to leave this to right-wingers this motive. I think there is a problem with this self-victimizing complaining liberal left left. I what this is why I also that's my last provocation I'm already attacked in Europe I like this Greta Thunberg and I asked them why? Because she is I think the best example of
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toxic masculinity that I can if you read
toxic masculinity that I can if you read
Slavoj Žižek
the exact definition of toxic masculinity instead of dialogue you act aggressively and so on she is it. Did you notice how Greta changed
the exact definition of toxic masculinity instead of dialogue you act aggressively and so on she is it. Did you notice how Greta changed
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her image till two-three months ago she was
her image till two-three months ago she was
Slavoj Žižek
the innocent girl who is
the innocent girl who is
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just telling the emperor is naked. Now she has this ironic almost demoniac smile and so on. I think I like women who are like this aggressive and this is she is not a man she is she has specifically
just telling the emperor is naked. Now she has this ironic almost demoniac smile and so on. I think I like women who are like this aggressive and this is she is not a man she is she has specifically
Slavoj Žižek
feminine aggressiveness which is I think important today because why do our media like so much the feminine approach? It's part of today's politics and
feminine aggressiveness which is I think important today because why do our media like so much the feminine approach? It's part of today's politics and
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ideology where oppression have to be masked as have to be masked as how should I call it medical advice you know we should understand if you are a criminal you should get psychological advice therapeutic approach and women fit
ideology where oppression have to be masked as have to be masked as how should I call it medical advice you know we should understand if you are a criminal you should get psychological advice therapeutic approach and women fit
Slavoj Žižek
here wonderfully. A friend of mine in France did an analysis how to deal with youthful crime and so on. They prefer women they they do the same state oppression but in this feminine understanding way and so on and so on. So now I think we if anything in politics this is now to annoy my friends democrats we need we need more brutal protest. Not I'm not for physical protest but what I like about Greta Thunberg is her point is not oh I go to Congress let's dialogue a little bit. No. Her message is you don't listen to me I am right no debate no debate. Yeah yeah. And I think this is the only way to approach what I consider the truly big problems today like ecology. No sorry we shouldn't debate one degree Celsius or Fahrenheit or two or three. This is the same is for me with digital control which is the real horror today you know like how we are already control what is the prospect we should raise the temperature here in a non-violent way but large-scale protests and so on and so on. I talk too much please go ahead. Sorry uh speaking of debates and and Peterson by the way prayers up for our boy he's in rehab right now all his lost his lessons just keep strong stay at it brother. No but sorry just to finish yes so my idea was a very conscious manipulation and from the reactions I got I succeeded. I was really talking to his fans. Yeah yeah. Like guys you are sick and tired of this politically correct blah blah listen we the left can do the same job maybe even better for you. Well I mean like I guess like you know going through that like did did you learn anything from or about him? Okay okay. No no here I'm very brutal I believe literally what I said before about masks. I'm totally not interested what kind of person he really behind the mask I don't I don't care. What I only appreciate about him is in contrast to many leftists who would just you know victimize understand but what he does I don't know if he still does it with his patients he really deals with individuals who suffer who are self-destroyed and tries to somehow make them functioning again. This is quite an honorable thing to do you know because you know all those leftists who claim how moral decay or drugs is part of our culture they
here wonderfully. A friend of mine in France did an analysis how to deal with youthful crime and so on. They prefer women they they do the same state oppression but in this feminine understanding way and so on and so on. So now I think we if anything in politics this is now to annoy my friends democrats we need we need more brutal protest. Not I'm not for physical protest but what I like about Greta Thunberg is her point is not oh I go to Congress let's dialogue a little bit. No. Her message is you don't listen to me I am right no debate no debate. Yeah yeah. And I think this is the only way to approach what I consider the truly big problems today like ecology. No sorry we shouldn't debate one degree Celsius or Fahrenheit or two or three. This is the same is for me with digital control which is the real horror today you know like how we are already control what is the prospect we should raise the temperature here in a non-violent way but large-scale protests and so on and so on. I talk too much please go ahead. Sorry uh speaking of debates and and Peterson by the way prayers up for our boy he's in rehab right now all his lost his lessons just keep strong stay at it brother. No but sorry just to finish yes so my idea was a very conscious manipulation and from the reactions I got I succeeded. I was really talking to his fans. Yeah yeah. Like guys you are sick and tired of this politically correct blah blah listen we the left can do the same job maybe even better for you. Well I mean like I guess like you know going through that like did did you learn anything from or about him? Okay okay. No no here I'm very brutal I believe literally what I said before about masks. I'm totally not interested what kind of person he really behind the mask I don't I don't care. What I only appreciate about him is in contrast to many leftists who would just you know victimize understand but what he does I don't know if he still does it with his patients he really deals with individuals who suffer who are self-destroyed and tries to somehow make them functioning again. This is quite an honorable thing to do you know because you know all those leftists who claim how moral decay or drugs is part of our culture they
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like
like
Slavoj Žižek
to do big social analysis but are you ready
to do big social analysis but are you ready
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did they ever see really a self-destroyed guy they there you know. So but no so no don't you know
did they ever see really a self-destroyed guy they there you know. So but no so no don't you know
Slavoj Žižek
we afterwards we had a quarter of an hour of a chat and we established that what surprised he also told me that many of his fans were furious at him like why didn't you grind me him and to me also like all leftists I got dozens of leftist emails like why didn't you screw his mother of that motherfucker and so on. I said no that was the beauty it was absolutely clear how different we are so there was no need to rehash that point you know. Well to quote I guess the the boss of Poland you know when it was uh your turn with the uh the prostitute I think the line that stuck out the most is when you asked him like who are actually these Marxists in American the American academy? It was ridiculous his answer was Jacques Derrida, Michel Foucault. You know that there was on YouTube one wonderful caricature because did you notice he had a PC in front of him. Yeah. The you know they tried to they tried to imagine what was he doing there and you see him googling who is Hegel who is Marx and so on. No but he admitted this to me. He you know don't overestimate him he likes to say read more I read for example he quoted Solzhenitsyn my God was he ever in Russia? Every honest Russian will tell you Solzhenitsyn was a pathetic fake. You get another guy Varlam Shalamov Kolyma Tales. It's written in a totally different not this Solzhenitsyn's ethical pathetic moralizing just in the style of early Hemingway short stories about Gulag. This is what happened yeah. It's sort of like the difference between like Elie Wiesel and Primo Levi and like Holocaust literature like every American schoolkid reads Elie Wiesel but no one knows Levi. Yeah here we get another point about jokes and you know what fascinates me now my idea was in the most deeply respectful way that if this is a man his Auschwitz memoirs are basically a comic book. And I mean it in a very respectful way. You know what's my point. If you read there are scenes there which in their utmost horror have a comic aspect. For example when he describes the process of selekcja selection how you know each prisoner once every two months you have to run naked in front of an SS doctor and he just put you gas chamber still to work. And how they exchange advices if you pinch you had to look as healthy yeah it's a comic show and what's my theory here. When things get really terrifying it's a fake to be tragic. Tragedy works when you as a victim are still able to retain certain minimal dignity. Tragedy only works at that level. When things get really nightmareish it must be a comedy but this comedy doesn't mean I make laugh of the it means I'm so perplexed by it that it would be a fake to adopt this dignified tragic stance I'm totally perplexed I can only make fun of it and now I discovered with pleasure my Jewish friends told me do you know that there is a whole sub-species of Jewish
we afterwards we had a quarter of an hour of a chat and we established that what surprised he also told me that many of his fans were furious at him like why didn't you grind me him and to me also like all leftists I got dozens of leftist emails like why didn't you screw his mother of that motherfucker and so on. I said no that was the beauty it was absolutely clear how different we are so there was no need to rehash that point you know. Well to quote I guess the the boss of Poland you know when it was uh your turn with the uh the prostitute I think the line that stuck out the most is when you asked him like who are actually these Marxists in American the American academy? It was ridiculous his answer was Jacques Derrida, Michel Foucault. You know that there was on YouTube one wonderful caricature because did you notice he had a PC in front of him. Yeah. The you know they tried to they tried to imagine what was he doing there and you see him googling who is Hegel who is Marx and so on. No but he admitted this to me. He you know don't overestimate him he likes to say read more I read for example he quoted Solzhenitsyn my God was he ever in Russia? Every honest Russian will tell you Solzhenitsyn was a pathetic fake. You get another guy Varlam Shalamov Kolyma Tales. It's written in a totally different not this Solzhenitsyn's ethical pathetic moralizing just in the style of early Hemingway short stories about Gulag. This is what happened yeah. It's sort of like the difference between like Elie Wiesel and Primo Levi and like Holocaust literature like every American schoolkid reads Elie Wiesel but no one knows Levi. Yeah here we get another point about jokes and you know what fascinates me now my idea was in the most deeply respectful way that if this is a man his Auschwitz memoirs are basically a comic book. And I mean it in a very respectful way. You know what's my point. If you read there are scenes there which in their utmost horror have a comic aspect. For example when he describes the process of selekcja selection how you know each prisoner once every two months you have to run naked in front of an SS doctor and he just put you gas chamber still to work. And how they exchange advices if you pinch you had to look as healthy yeah it's a comic show and what's my theory here. When things get really terrifying it's a fake to be tragic. Tragedy works when you as a victim are still able to retain certain minimal dignity. Tragedy only works at that level. When things get really nightmareish it must be a comedy but this comedy doesn't mean I make laugh of the it means I'm so perplexed by it that it would be a fake to adopt this dignified tragic stance I'm totally perplexed I can only make fun of it and now I discovered with pleasure my Jewish friends told me do you know that there is a whole sub-species of Jewish
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Auschwitz jokes making fun of themselves. And this is not disrespectful it's just a way to recognize sorry guys something so horrible happened it would be a fake and even in ex-Yugoslavia there are Srebrenica jokes. Not by others by the
Auschwitz jokes making fun of themselves. And this is not disrespectful it's just a way to recognize sorry guys something so horrible happened it would be a fake and even in ex-Yugoslavia there are Srebrenica jokes. Not by others by the
Slavoj Žižek
Srebrenica survivors themselves. Better not me to start tell them they are both extremely obscene and so on and so on. So for me and this is the lie for me I always repeat this. Did you see the movie La vita bella, Life is Beautiful. Yes. Yes you know what's the lie of that movie that it doesn't persist in its comic stance to the end. At the end there is the tragic moment when father sacrifices
Srebrenica survivors themselves. Better not me to start tell them they are both extremely obscene and so on and so on. So for me and this is the lie for me I always repeat this. Did you see the movie La vita bella, Life is Beautiful. Yes. Yes you know what's the lie of that movie that it doesn't persist in its comic stance to the end. At the end there is the tragic moment when father sacrifices
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himself. Do you would you agree let's say we all know the story I have an idea of how to remake the movie which
himself. Do you would you agree let's say we all know the story I have an idea of how to remake the movie which
Slavoj Žižek
would have made him truly I wouldn't say tragic desperate. We know the story father son are arrested to Auschwitz in order for his son to make it easier father tells him a bullshit story sells him that this is not really Auschwitz it's a it's a big competition if we can live whatever we want but if you survive you will get a big prize. Okay what if when father is led away to be shot he would have learned that his son knew this all the time he just pretended to believe. So he he was doing it for his dad not the other way around. Yeah yeah wouldn't this make the movie really desperate that there is no naive innocent gaze for which you fake they were all cheating. This would have been the true tragedy. So you see and also sorry just to go to the end I'm also well aware from my own past that I'm not just celebrating vulgar humor I'm well aware especially from my communist past that you not only have lower class jokes against those in power in communist nomenclature you have a whole series of jokes making fun of ordinary people. They they didn't believe in their communism they make fun of idiots who take them seriously and so on. So I'm well aware that this was my big experience no
would have made him truly I wouldn't say tragic desperate. We know the story father son are arrested to Auschwitz in order for his son to make it easier father tells him a bullshit story sells him that this is not really Auschwitz it's a it's a big competition if we can live whatever we want but if you survive you will get a big prize. Okay what if when father is led away to be shot he would have learned that his son knew this all the time he just pretended to believe. So he he was doing it for his dad not the other way around. Yeah yeah wouldn't this make the movie really desperate that there is no naive innocent gaze for which you fake they were all cheating. This would have been the true tragedy. So you see and also sorry just to go to the end I'm also well aware from my own past that I'm not just celebrating vulgar humor I'm well aware especially from my communist past that you not only have lower class jokes against those in power in communist nomenclature you have a whole series of jokes making fun of ordinary people. They they didn't believe in their communism they make fun of idiots who take them seriously and so on. So I'm well aware that this was my big experience no
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you probably haven't read I use this in one of my early books of serving the army. Oh yeah I had to and I learned there this was almost my metaphysical epiphany. First I thought okay you know I don't know how it is here but probably in every army in ex-Yugoslav army these obscenities were part of the game. The Full
you probably haven't read I use this in one of my early books of serving the army. Oh yeah I had to and I learned there this was almost my metaphysical epiphany. First I thought okay you know I don't know how it is here but probably in every army in ex-Yugoslav army these obscenities were part of the game. The Full
Slavoj Žižek
Metal Jacket thing yeah. No no it's even Full Metal Jacket is still the obscenity as part of the training. But even this private like I always tell this to my gay friends and they are suspicious they cannot accept it how ambiguous towards homosexuality the army was. On the one hand I agree you were openly discovered you are gay you were finished you were beaten by fellow soldiers you know this standard military way when you are asleep somebody puts a pillow on your head so that you don't see and others take their belts off and beat you. But at the same time the whole daily life was absolutely penetrated by homosexual innuendos. Like in my unit let's say we are friends when I meet you in the morning I don't say good morning hello I say I'll smoke
Metal Jacket thing yeah. No no it's even Full Metal Jacket is still the obscenity as part of the training. But even this private like I always tell this to my gay friends and they are suspicious they cannot accept it how ambiguous towards homosexuality the army was. On the one hand I agree you were openly discovered you are gay you were finished you were beaten by fellow soldiers you know this standard military way when you are asleep somebody puts a pillow on your head so that you don't see and others take their belts off and beat you. But at the same time the whole daily life was absolutely penetrated by homosexual innuendos. Like in my unit let's say we are friends when I meet you in the morning I don't say good morning hello I say I'll smoke
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yours vulgar expression for fellatio and say yes go on after I finish smoking you something so this is the key paradox how the ultimate brutal oppression of actual homosexuality is
yours vulgar expression for fellatio and say yes go on after I finish smoking you something so this is the key paradox how the ultimate brutal oppression of actual homosexuality is
Slavoj Žižek
accompanied by an explosion of homosexual innuendos. Or all this it took me some time to get it that there is nothing subversive in these military obscenities. Military discipline for itself doesn't work it has to be supplemented by obscene rituals. That's why as you said Full Metal Jacket but also that's my my favorite when some idiot asks me what's your favorite American poetry I said marching chants you know those stupid marine songs like the one I always quote it's nice from that stupid shitty movie with with Richard Gere when he was younger... An Officer and a Gentleman...
accompanied by an explosion of homosexual innuendos. Or all this it took me some time to get it that there is nothing subversive in these military obscenities. Military discipline for itself doesn't work it has to be supplemented by obscene rituals. That's why as you said Full Metal Jacket but also that's my my favorite when some idiot asks me what's your favorite American poetry I said marching chants you know those stupid marine songs like the one I always quote it's nice from that stupid shitty movie with with Richard Gere when he was younger... An Officer and a Gentleman...
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yeah you know I don't know but I was told that
yeah you know I don't know but I was told that
Slavoj Žižek
Eskimo pussies are rather cold. Yeah but you what you have to see is that there is nothing of undermining military authority whatever. Military authority... No that that solidifies military authority. That solidifies yeah yeah. And many many leftist idiots who still think irony jokes are subversive no they can also serve power absolutely at the ultimate resort of power you know. Oh yeah. So things are more complicated again don't misunderstand I'm not just saying hey guys let's let's tell some dirty jokes and although I must say here you can use this if you dare. Here in the United States what I hate is guys who want to provoke me and then when they get what they ask for they are shocked like once I was signing books and a guy came to me and said professor I know you like dirty jokes please do it the dedication write in a book something really dirty. Then I warned the guy I told him listen you are talking to a madman if you ask for dirty you will get it. He said no more dirty it is you will get it. He got it and was then I wrote I screw your mother standing up her ass in a dirty toilet with her knees in urine something and the guy was hurt. Fuck him I warned him three times you know. I hate people who who you know this is for me the fundamental hypocrisy like if you ask for something provocatively be ready to get it you know. Don't play don't play this game. Sorry we got lost go on. Instead I got well this a good segue just in terms of being being ready to get what you asked for. Uh we I got to ask you about like you know our current presidential election and in particular like just what what do you make of the Democratic primary and in particular Bernie Sanders as he tries now a second time? I think this is my old dogma. People thought that I'm crazy I support Trump. I'm not crazy Trump is a moral disgrace I mean Trump is even... But you said that the election of Trump was the only thing that could open up the actual like ideological crisis. Anything anything we
Eskimo pussies are rather cold. Yeah but you what you have to see is that there is nothing of undermining military authority whatever. Military authority... No that that solidifies military authority. That solidifies yeah yeah. And many many leftist idiots who still think irony jokes are subversive no they can also serve power absolutely at the ultimate resort of power you know. Oh yeah. So things are more complicated again don't misunderstand I'm not just saying hey guys let's let's tell some dirty jokes and although I must say here you can use this if you dare. Here in the United States what I hate is guys who want to provoke me and then when they get what they ask for they are shocked like once I was signing books and a guy came to me and said professor I know you like dirty jokes please do it the dedication write in a book something really dirty. Then I warned the guy I told him listen you are talking to a madman if you ask for dirty you will get it. He said no more dirty it is you will get it. He got it and was then I wrote I screw your mother standing up her ass in a dirty toilet with her knees in urine something and the guy was hurt. Fuck him I warned him three times you know. I hate people who who you know this is for me the fundamental hypocrisy like if you ask for something provocatively be ready to get it you know. Don't play don't play this game. Sorry we got lost go on. Instead I got well this a good segue just in terms of being being ready to get what you asked for. Uh we I got to ask you about like you know our current presidential election and in particular like just what what do you make of the Democratic primary and in particular Bernie Sanders as he tries now a second time? I think this is my old dogma. People thought that I'm crazy I support Trump. I'm not crazy Trump is a moral disgrace I mean Trump is even... But you said that the election of Trump was the only thing that could open up the actual like ideological crisis. Anything anything we
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have democratic socialists. For without Trump
have democratic socialists. For without Trump
Slavoj Žižek
this wouldn't have happened I claim as a reaction to Trump. So the only political battle the way I see it now in the United States is the one going on within the Democratic Party. Absolutely yes we agree. And what I like about them that's here comes Bernie Sanders genius but unfortunately from what I know this heart attack was more serious so he will be... No he'll be fine he'll be fine. You think? Oh I'm just saying it because you know willing it into existence. Yeah yeah no no we don't okay okay. No what I want to say is this that what Trump did is he disturbed this hegemonic peace. Till Trump Republican Democratic Party there were tensions and so on of course Democrats were not the same as Dick Cheney and so on. But basically there was some understanding you know they shared the same field and that's always how politics works it's not only just explicit rules is this customs unspoken rules how you do things and Trump disturbed this peace. There you have now here some kind of a ideological civil war and why shouldn't the left use this opportunity. Now I don't know if you read my last piece published just digitally on this where I go and some people again accused me oh you defend Trump. No I'm not. Well it's the idea that like no sorry just to finish it very briefly you know even this now impeachment process against Trump I'm skeptical about him it not only because I you know Trump's talk a lot but he didn't attack North Korea he didn't attack Iran or Syria he is much more cautious here. This is why many right-wing hardliners are beginning to doubt him but I want to tell you another thing here. For me this is a clear example of how ideology works it's easy to attack Trump because he is obviously a personally if not corrupt then immoral whatever opportunistic whatever guy and but it would be much more interesting and the lesson of the guys whom I admire the the triad Assange, Snowden, Chelsea Manning is to focus on let's call it naively evil violation of human rights blah blah which are part of the anonymous functioning of the state apparatus. You don't need an evil guy like Trump to see what NSA is doing in combination with Facebook with Google and so on and so on. That's why now in a text that appeared only digitally I said I contrasted Trump with his great enemy who probably personally is more or less although I doubt honest James Comey in A Higher Loyalty. I'm much more afraid of people who do the same stuff the same violating of human rights blah blah just on behalf of have some higher loyalty. We should never forget that the problem today digital control oppression and so on it's not the problem of single corrupted individuals. I'm much more afraid of people who are sincere fanatics and think they are doing their patriotic duty and so on and so on. That's the problem I have with impeaching Trump. Of course he should be not impeached he should be arrested whatever kill him I don't care. What I'm just saying is my fear is this one. I'm suspicious about this I call it John Oliver, Jon Stewart leftist reaction even Alec Baldwin let's make endlessly fun of Trump. Yes you do this and at the end he will be re-elected and so on and so on. I mean but maybe I'm wrong here. My old dogma about Trump was that okay back to Bernie Sanders that Bernie Sanders was the only hope why as many I have believe me or not I have some connections there Bernie Sanders is from Burlington. Burlington is the only department where my colleagues of cinema studies Lacanian psychoanalyst are in power. Really? So I met then some people around Trump or around Bernie why do I confuse the two of them that's very suspicious and they told me this we have the Squad and Trump tried to focus his criticism on the Squad Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and so on. Ilhan Omar. But the strength of Democratic Party would be to bring the Squad together with Bernie Sanders who stands for old white men. Sanders' voters I was told in Vermont are people who otherwise would have voted for Trump maybe even these ordinary impoverished farmers and so on and so on. This combination we should strive at. This was the greatness of Trump of Sanders he mobilized for the
this wouldn't have happened I claim as a reaction to Trump. So the only political battle the way I see it now in the United States is the one going on within the Democratic Party. Absolutely yes we agree. And what I like about them that's here comes Bernie Sanders genius but unfortunately from what I know this heart attack was more serious so he will be... No he'll be fine he'll be fine. You think? Oh I'm just saying it because you know willing it into existence. Yeah yeah no no we don't okay okay. No what I want to say is this that what Trump did is he disturbed this hegemonic peace. Till Trump Republican Democratic Party there were tensions and so on of course Democrats were not the same as Dick Cheney and so on. But basically there was some understanding you know they shared the same field and that's always how politics works it's not only just explicit rules is this customs unspoken rules how you do things and Trump disturbed this peace. There you have now here some kind of a ideological civil war and why shouldn't the left use this opportunity. Now I don't know if you read my last piece published just digitally on this where I go and some people again accused me oh you defend Trump. No I'm not. Well it's the idea that like no sorry just to finish it very briefly you know even this now impeachment process against Trump I'm skeptical about him it not only because I you know Trump's talk a lot but he didn't attack North Korea he didn't attack Iran or Syria he is much more cautious here. This is why many right-wing hardliners are beginning to doubt him but I want to tell you another thing here. For me this is a clear example of how ideology works it's easy to attack Trump because he is obviously a personally if not corrupt then immoral whatever opportunistic whatever guy and but it would be much more interesting and the lesson of the guys whom I admire the the triad Assange, Snowden, Chelsea Manning is to focus on let's call it naively evil violation of human rights blah blah which are part of the anonymous functioning of the state apparatus. You don't need an evil guy like Trump to see what NSA is doing in combination with Facebook with Google and so on and so on. That's why now in a text that appeared only digitally I said I contrasted Trump with his great enemy who probably personally is more or less although I doubt honest James Comey in A Higher Loyalty. I'm much more afraid of people who do the same stuff the same violating of human rights blah blah just on behalf of have some higher loyalty. We should never forget that the problem today digital control oppression and so on it's not the problem of single corrupted individuals. I'm much more afraid of people who are sincere fanatics and think they are doing their patriotic duty and so on and so on. That's the problem I have with impeaching Trump. Of course he should be not impeached he should be arrested whatever kill him I don't care. What I'm just saying is my fear is this one. I'm suspicious about this I call it John Oliver, Jon Stewart leftist reaction even Alec Baldwin let's make endlessly fun of Trump. Yes you do this and at the end he will be re-elected and so on and so on. I mean but maybe I'm wrong here. My old dogma about Trump was that okay back to Bernie Sanders that Bernie Sanders was the only hope why as many I have believe me or not I have some connections there Bernie Sanders is from Burlington. Burlington is the only department where my colleagues of cinema studies Lacanian psychoanalyst are in power. Really? So I met then some people around Trump or around Bernie why do I confuse the two of them that's very suspicious and they told me this we have the Squad and Trump tried to focus his criticism on the Squad Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and so on. Ilhan Omar. But the strength of Democratic Party would be to bring the Squad together with Bernie Sanders who stands for old white men. Sanders' voters I was told in Vermont are people who otherwise would have voted for Trump maybe even these ordinary impoverished farmers and so on and so on. This combination we should strive at. This was the greatness of Trump of Sanders he mobilized for the
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left cause all these old-fashioned more even moral majority guys and so on
left cause all these old-fashioned more even moral majority guys and so on
Slavoj Žižek
and so on. So this is for me the only and this is why I think I cannot prove it statistically but this is why Hillary lost people I had many connections I met people
and so on. So this is for me the only and this is why I think I cannot prove it statistically but this is why Hillary lost people I had many connections I met people
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my son even volunteered to my son who is from Slovenia he was eighteen years. He contacted because he stood he was with his mother in Ithaca, Cornell and if Bernie Sanders were to be presidential candidate the whole summer he was already in contact with Democratic Party committee in Ithaca, Cornell he offered to walk door by door
my son even volunteered to my son who is from Slovenia he was eighteen years. He contacted because he stood he was with his mother in Ithaca, Cornell and if Bernie Sanders were to be presidential candidate the whole summer he was already in contact with Democratic Party committee in Ithaca, Cornell he offered to walk door by door
Slavoj Žižek
work for Sanders and so on so all this offered to commit election interference. Sorry offered to commit election interference. Although yes although
work for Sanders and so on so all this offered to commit election interference. Sorry offered to commit election interference. Although yes although
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I have to laugh of course you also when I hear
I have to laugh of course you also when I hear
Slavoj Žižek
America say this well United States are interfering all the time in elections just they called it we are helping democracy what they are doing. No but you know that's the lie of the Democratic Party. Probably I have no illusions about Trump's good friend Putin and so on. Yeah but but let's face it I don't believe this was the key factor. No the key factor was so many thousands hundreds of thousands of of Bernie Sanders partisans were disgusted at how Hillary manipulated him. He lost I think in my analysis that was what ruined it and so on and so on. Hillary should have made instead of attacking Bernie a more honest deal with Bernie that would have changed... Maybe I'm wrong I don't know enough. Well we can speak to how like how the election shook out and you know you've said like you know I absolutely still write to choose Trump over Hillary because of the reasons... But only because of this oh yeah only because of the reasons that you set out but like his time is over I will write a new text now the left is revitalized now Trump did here his duty. The criticism of that is that like you know if you look at everything he's done you know like children family separation on the border and like a sort of a nascent you know I guess white supremacist in politics in America and I know he can't have in all this... we'll take we'll take that I hear but now is the time where where like you know moderate conservatives left we need like a broad popular anti-fascist front against Trump because you know in the example of like Germany in the 30s communist party were like great Hitler's in power now the democratic illusions go away. Well you see here I always emphasize my point is not the worst it is all the better I know this was the catastrophic policy of the communists in Germany you know first they hailed Hitler's arrival to power fine we have now pure confrontation we know first I nonetheless think that and I I admit it first I don't universalize this United States are a rich enough country rich not in the sense of material rich in the sense of the rich complex texture of civil society and so on so whatever Trump is it's not simply a new fascist dictatorship while for Europe I worry much more. I would never have been for Boris Johnson in England that's a much more serious threat. I would never have been for Marine Le Pen. But for me I admit it many real things were lost like healthcare and so on. But maybe I'm here a little bit too much of a idealist Leninist leftist the main what I saw in Trump is just a someone who can trigger a revival of a slightly more radical left. It's not really radical I found this ridiculous Bernie Sanders Venezuela look at his program it's much less radical than average European social democracy half a century ago. That's our reality now if today you repeat what European social democracy said half a century ago you are Venezuela, communist whatever and so on and so on. So what I'm saying is it's a very brutal cynical calculus. Yeah I still think it was worth the price if we will get an authentic left and I agree with you we need this broad coalition but you know like there are no pure compromises. In compromises always always somebody wins and the left has now a unique chance to demand more. Well I like this flattening distinction where it's just like yeah everyone needs to come together and you know including like you know the left should make common cause with I don't know Bill Kristol and like I'm saying no I think that would be a mistake. Not only this some of them even claimed now George Bush the younger. Yeah George Bush because he said he will vote for for Hillary you know. Oh great what a good guy. Yeah no but don't you feel that this did happen with Trump? Like all of a sudden before you had Republicans Democrats which were more or less not quite but more or less like you know like Coke or Pepsi or whatever this standard opposition which really did mean anything now you finally get something that resembles a true political struggle here. I think this is very precious. And sorry another thing you know where the left should answer. Now of course many mainstream liberal economists say the left just wants to spend money and so on and so on and the idea is this doesn't work only brings bankruptcy. This is so stupidly wrong. I talked with many economists they even were not leftists who said let's look at World War II you know that United States were not really out of crisis before World War II. What World War II meant is tremendous amounts of money spent in a non-productive way arms and so on. At the end of World War II do you know that if you take away all the military production and take just private consumerist stuff United States produced more than ever private consumer in other words if we can learn anything from history is that if you do it intelligently just print money spend it invest state invest they work they work and now I will give you another reason for this. Everybody knows this that Reagan was doing this. Trump is now doing this. Trump is the wild Keynesian. Trump's politics economic in so far as it works it's absolutely not this neoliberalist austerity. It is austerity against the poor but he prints and spends money like crazy. Your do you remember when Clinton was in power the right wing was worried oh Democrats just print money. Now Trump is doing this to an extent unimaginable before. The left should learn this lesson and be less afraid of spending money. Trillion is just a trillion if you do it intelligently you can do it. Personal map do you have a... You are the dangerous guy you have this mean look at me I wonder I wonder what he is getting ready for. He where are we sorry do we
America say this well United States are interfering all the time in elections just they called it we are helping democracy what they are doing. No but you know that's the lie of the Democratic Party. Probably I have no illusions about Trump's good friend Putin and so on. Yeah but but let's face it I don't believe this was the key factor. No the key factor was so many thousands hundreds of thousands of of Bernie Sanders partisans were disgusted at how Hillary manipulated him. He lost I think in my analysis that was what ruined it and so on and so on. Hillary should have made instead of attacking Bernie a more honest deal with Bernie that would have changed... Maybe I'm wrong I don't know enough. Well we can speak to how like how the election shook out and you know you've said like you know I absolutely still write to choose Trump over Hillary because of the reasons... But only because of this oh yeah only because of the reasons that you set out but like his time is over I will write a new text now the left is revitalized now Trump did here his duty. The criticism of that is that like you know if you look at everything he's done you know like children family separation on the border and like a sort of a nascent you know I guess white supremacist in politics in America and I know he can't have in all this... we'll take we'll take that I hear but now is the time where where like you know moderate conservatives left we need like a broad popular anti-fascist front against Trump because you know in the example of like Germany in the 30s communist party were like great Hitler's in power now the democratic illusions go away. Well you see here I always emphasize my point is not the worst it is all the better I know this was the catastrophic policy of the communists in Germany you know first they hailed Hitler's arrival to power fine we have now pure confrontation we know first I nonetheless think that and I I admit it first I don't universalize this United States are a rich enough country rich not in the sense of material rich in the sense of the rich complex texture of civil society and so on so whatever Trump is it's not simply a new fascist dictatorship while for Europe I worry much more. I would never have been for Boris Johnson in England that's a much more serious threat. I would never have been for Marine Le Pen. But for me I admit it many real things were lost like healthcare and so on. But maybe I'm here a little bit too much of a idealist Leninist leftist the main what I saw in Trump is just a someone who can trigger a revival of a slightly more radical left. It's not really radical I found this ridiculous Bernie Sanders Venezuela look at his program it's much less radical than average European social democracy half a century ago. That's our reality now if today you repeat what European social democracy said half a century ago you are Venezuela, communist whatever and so on and so on. So what I'm saying is it's a very brutal cynical calculus. Yeah I still think it was worth the price if we will get an authentic left and I agree with you we need this broad coalition but you know like there are no pure compromises. In compromises always always somebody wins and the left has now a unique chance to demand more. Well I like this flattening distinction where it's just like yeah everyone needs to come together and you know including like you know the left should make common cause with I don't know Bill Kristol and like I'm saying no I think that would be a mistake. Not only this some of them even claimed now George Bush the younger. Yeah George Bush because he said he will vote for for Hillary you know. Oh great what a good guy. Yeah no but don't you feel that this did happen with Trump? Like all of a sudden before you had Republicans Democrats which were more or less not quite but more or less like you know like Coke or Pepsi or whatever this standard opposition which really did mean anything now you finally get something that resembles a true political struggle here. I think this is very precious. And sorry another thing you know where the left should answer. Now of course many mainstream liberal economists say the left just wants to spend money and so on and so on and the idea is this doesn't work only brings bankruptcy. This is so stupidly wrong. I talked with many economists they even were not leftists who said let's look at World War II you know that United States were not really out of crisis before World War II. What World War II meant is tremendous amounts of money spent in a non-productive way arms and so on. At the end of World War II do you know that if you take away all the military production and take just private consumerist stuff United States produced more than ever private consumer in other words if we can learn anything from history is that if you do it intelligently just print money spend it invest state invest they work they work and now I will give you another reason for this. Everybody knows this that Reagan was doing this. Trump is now doing this. Trump is the wild Keynesian. Trump's politics economic in so far as it works it's absolutely not this neoliberalist austerity. It is austerity against the poor but he prints and spends money like crazy. Your do you remember when Clinton was in power the right wing was worried oh Democrats just print money. Now Trump is doing this to an extent unimaginable before. The left should learn this lesson and be less afraid of spending money. Trillion is just a trillion if you do it intelligently you can do it. Personal map do you have a... You are the dangerous guy you have this mean look at me I wonder I wonder what he is getting ready for. He where are we sorry do we
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have something like clock there? About an hour. We're at about an hour. Okay let's go a little bit more yeah yeah I'm in a generous mood I feel like Trump after he grabbed some nice
have something like clock there? About an hour. We're at about an hour. Okay let's go a little bit more yeah yeah I'm in a generous mood I feel like Trump after he grabbed some nice
Slavoj Žižek
pussy if you dare to use this you know. No cuts, no edits. No cuts no edits no cuts. Okay sure I've got I've got kind of an interesting... But you know how I would talk why didn't any democrat do this? I would
pussy if you dare to use this you know. No cuts, no edits. No cuts no edits no cuts. Okay sure I've got I've got kind of an interesting... But you know how I would talk why didn't any democrat do this? I would
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like to tell why doesn't a democrat in public debate tell Trump now we democrats know how to grab your pussy and then hopefully Trump will answer sorry
like to tell why doesn't a democrat in public debate tell Trump now we democrats know how to grab your pussy and then hopefully Trump will answer sorry
Slavoj Žižek
I'm a man I don't have a pussy and the answer should be no you are not a man you are one big pussy
I'm a man I don't have a pussy and the answer should be no you are not a man you are one big pussy
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you know. Democrats should learn this no we should be polite but don't you think with guys like Trump selected insults could they should embarrass him. My theory has been that they should since that the leaders of the party
you know. Democrats should learn this no we should be polite but don't you think with guys like Trump selected insults could they should embarrass him. My theory has been that they should since that the leaders of the party
Slavoj Žižek
should come out and accuse him of wearing a diaper at all times and then make him because he would be obsessed with that and he would only talk about it and only talk about how he doesn't wear a diaper and in everyone's mind they would just be thinking of him wearing a diaper. Yeah yeah yeah it would annihilate... Yeah yeah and of course but you know the irony in my shithole of a country Slovenia it's not that Trump is popular but Melania is one of us and I quite like this although I'm a leftist capitalist spirit. It's a small city town close to Croat border where Melania comes from and now they are making big tourist... Do they sell merchandise of Melania? Melania cakes, Melania wine, Melania champagne you have a whole set of merchandise. Well she's a great success story. Yeah although I like I like this ironic argument but it doesn't work Trump is too obscene to hit him in this way that new anti-immigration rules of Trump well the first thing he should have done if he were to follow his rules is to send Melania back you know. Sorry. Yeah so you've been following the Democratic election. More or less not really. Well tell me about this idea of electability that most of the voters in the Democratic primary they tell pollsters that the most important thing is that they can beat Trump. The most important thing is that they are electable and to them electability means that this candidate usually Joe Biden is considered the most electable that this candidate will appeal to a some imaginary voter who voted for Trump and will you know someone who will be acceptable and this is something that we think about a lot and are kind of maddened by. But but be very careful here be very careful here because that's the mystery of the democratic process sometimes to be a little bit more radical makes you even more electable. The problem of democratic
should come out and accuse him of wearing a diaper at all times and then make him because he would be obsessed with that and he would only talk about it and only talk about how he doesn't wear a diaper and in everyone's mind they would just be thinking of him wearing a diaper. Yeah yeah yeah it would annihilate... Yeah yeah and of course but you know the irony in my shithole of a country Slovenia it's not that Trump is popular but Melania is one of us and I quite like this although I'm a leftist capitalist spirit. It's a small city town close to Croat border where Melania comes from and now they are making big tourist... Do they sell merchandise of Melania? Melania cakes, Melania wine, Melania champagne you have a whole set of merchandise. Well she's a great success story. Yeah although I like I like this ironic argument but it doesn't work Trump is too obscene to hit him in this way that new anti-immigration rules of Trump well the first thing he should have done if he were to follow his rules is to send Melania back you know. Sorry. Yeah so you've been following the Democratic election. More or less not really. Well tell me about this idea of electability that most of the voters in the Democratic primary they tell pollsters that the most important thing is that they can beat Trump. The most important thing is that they are electable and to them electability means that this candidate usually Joe Biden is considered the most electable that this candidate will appeal to a some imaginary voter who voted for Trump and will you know someone who will be acceptable and this is something that we think about a lot and are kind of maddened by. But but be very careful here be very careful here because that's the mystery of the democratic process sometimes to be a little bit more radical makes you even more electable. The problem of democratic
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center is that they are also presented as inefficient corrupted part of the establishment and so on so but the biggest argument for me against this ar- against this reasoning of electable is Trump himself. Almost
center is that they are also presented as inefficient corrupted part of the establishment and so on so but the biggest argument for me against this ar- against this reasoning of electable is Trump himself. Almost
Slavoj Žižek
to the end he was considered unelectable too extreme you can't you cannot even... The Clintons tried to manipulate it so that he'd be the nominee because they thought he'd be easier to beat. Yeah yeah you see that's the lesson we should learn it's not as simple as that the political landscape it's not as simple as that right left oh who gets the middle and so on it's much more complex. That's why again I like Bernie Sanders no it's not some abstract middle ground that we should get we should aim at those disappointed lower classes who vote who vote for Trump. That should be our target not some of this imaginary middle and so on. Or what we imagine when voters and I think people do this throughout the spectrum even on the left they think you know my guy will appeal to this voter that I've conjured up this... Yes but this makes elections very sad. I remember I watched an interview was it in newspapers I don't know with Biden's wife and it was the most tragic depressive statement that I read. Her point was I know Joe my husband doesn't have a good health program whoever but he is the most electable. Like she openly stated it's all shit compromise but he's the... No this will not work. Trump nonetheless introduced a new logic of political engagement mobilization I don't believe that this is enough to beat him. You need a more sorry for this naivety a more inspiring positive project. That that's the problem though is that although he did Trump did in fact create a new political reality he overturned all the old understandings but the media has basically spent the last three years trying to convince everyone that that didn't happen and that they're still normal and that nothing has changed. That's the biggest tragedy that's why I'm saying Trump's biggest ally are these liberal media which criticize him but exactly in this wrong way. Yes. Yeah they criticize him for being vulgar they criticize him for doing technical corruption and all that stuff and so
to the end he was considered unelectable too extreme you can't you cannot even... The Clintons tried to manipulate it so that he'd be the nominee because they thought he'd be easier to beat. Yeah yeah you see that's the lesson we should learn it's not as simple as that the political landscape it's not as simple as that right left oh who gets the middle and so on it's much more complex. That's why again I like Bernie Sanders no it's not some abstract middle ground that we should get we should aim at those disappointed lower classes who vote who vote for Trump. That should be our target not some of this imaginary middle and so on. Or what we imagine when voters and I think people do this throughout the spectrum even on the left they think you know my guy will appeal to this voter that I've conjured up this... Yes but this makes elections very sad. I remember I watched an interview was it in newspapers I don't know with Biden's wife and it was the most tragic depressive statement that I read. Her point was I know Joe my husband doesn't have a good health program whoever but he is the most electable. Like she openly stated it's all shit compromise but he's the... No this will not work. Trump nonetheless introduced a new logic of political engagement mobilization I don't believe that this is enough to beat him. You need a more sorry for this naivety a more inspiring positive project. That that's the problem though is that although he did Trump did in fact create a new political reality he overturned all the old understandings but the media has basically spent the last three years trying to convince everyone that that didn't happen and that they're still normal and that nothing has changed. That's the biggest tragedy that's why I'm saying Trump's biggest ally are these liberal media which criticize him but exactly in this wrong way. Yes. Yeah they criticize him for being vulgar they criticize him for doing technical corruption and all that stuff and so
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that's why again I am allergic
that's why again I am allergic
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to that
to that
Slavoj Žižek
John Oliver. Of course you can make make fun
John Oliver. Of course you can make make fun
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as much as you want for Trump but maybe this
as much as you want for Trump but maybe this
Slavoj Žižek
even just strengthens solidarity with him and so on and so on. That's
even just strengthens solidarity with him and so on and so on. That's
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why I quoted him Bernie Sanders said something quite simple and nice a month ago already. He
why I quoted him Bernie Sanders said something quite simple and nice a month ago already. He
Slavoj Žižek
said I'm tired of this Trump
said I'm tired of this Trump
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impeach Trump impeach. What about social solidarity? What about health care and so on and so on? Don't get focused on
impeach Trump impeach. What about social solidarity? What about health care and so on and so on? Don't get focused on
Slavoj Žižek
the
the
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person go
person go
Slavoj Žižek
to and Bernie in a very wise way I noticed he even said with some particular points when Trump wanted to protect some industries maybe we should even support Trump here. He didn't mean it totally but you know like just to shift from this per- this personal issue to personalize on Trump even if you just criticize him as a disgusting person is to do him a favor in the long term I think. But here was the second part of that question so
to and Bernie in a very wise way I noticed he even said with some particular points when Trump wanted to protect some industries maybe we should even support Trump here. He didn't mean it totally but you know like just to shift from this per- this personal issue to personalize on Trump even if you just criticize him as a disgusting person is to do him a favor in the long term I think. But here was the second part of that question so
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yeah when we hear from Bernie Sanders voters like if you saw the video of the Bernie Sanders town hall where this man comes up and says I'm a veteran I have health insurance but they stopped accepting it I'm a hundred fifty two hundred thousand dollars in debt and I and I want to kill myself I'm going to kill myself because I my despair is
yeah when we hear from Bernie Sanders voters like if you saw the video of the Bernie Sanders town hall where this man comes up and says I'm a veteran I have health insurance but they stopped accepting it I'm a hundred fifty two hundred thousand dollars in debt and I and I want to kill myself I'm going to kill myself because I my despair is
Slavoj Žižek
so great. So when you know the fifteen percent or so or so who say they support Bernie Sanders you know they they do it for very material reasons I want to survive. But it seems like everyone else they
so great. So when you know the fifteen percent or so or so who say they support Bernie Sanders you know they they do it for very material reasons I want to survive. But it seems like everyone else they
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support a candidate because of aesthetic
support a candidate because of aesthetic
Slavoj Žižek
reasons or because
reasons or because
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they appeal to this
they appeal to this
Slavoj Žižek
imaginary voter so my question is should we on the left be the left critique is no our politics are immaterial that's been the left critique for a while we want to return to a material sort of politics but does that mean we
imaginary voter so my question is should we on the left be the left critique is no our politics are immaterial that's been the left critique for a while we want to return to a material sort of politics but does that mean we
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should not be fighting in the imaginary terrain of electability and and aesthetics. No no I totally agree with you even when you said aesthetic you know. I know I even have some theories of political processes in Europe who even claim that even when we are apparently dealing with material issues most of even most of politics today is if I may use this very nice term it's used in Europe that we should fight aesthetic issues somebody you find repellent and so on and so on but I think that we should precisely do this it can be done in a different way I claim. So it's not just we should talk real
should not be fighting in the imaginary terrain of electability and and aesthetics. No no I totally agree with you even when you said aesthetic you know. I know I even have some theories of political processes in Europe who even claim that even when we are apparently dealing with material issues most of even most of politics today is if I may use this very nice term it's used in Europe that we should fight aesthetic issues somebody you find repellent and so on and so on but I think that we should precisely do this it can be done in a different way I claim. So it's not just we should talk real
Slavoj Žižek
issues this is losing strategy today and so that you will see that I'm not bluffing I will give you an example of not Slovenia but Croatia there standard of living two-three years ago fell there was a crisis. Trade unions wanted to organize a big meeting protesting this whatever some social unemployment etc etc. At the same time right-wing nationalists organized a big protest meeting for
issues this is losing strategy today and so that you will see that I'm not bluffing I will give you an example of not Slovenia but Croatia there standard of living two-three years ago fell there was a crisis. Trade unions wanted to organize a big meeting protesting this whatever some social unemployment etc etc. At the same time right-wing nationalists organized a big protest meeting for
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the defense of Croat nation and so on and so on. Leftists got two hundred people right-wingers got half a million people.
the defense of Croat nation and so on and so on. Leftists got two hundred people right-wingers got half a million people.
Slavoj Žižek
It's this is the I totally agree with you the the the the mystery is that precisely those poor guys who vote for Trump they all they vote for him more for aesthetic reasons making America strong and so on. No no I agree with you we shouldn't simply do this material but I think the left should mobilize its own okay although it's still pragmatic but aesthetic reasoning for example for example ecology. Ecology is not
It's this is the I totally agree with you the the the the mystery is that precisely those poor guys who vote for Trump they all they vote for him more for aesthetic reasons making America strong and so on. No no I agree with you we shouldn't simply do this material but I think the left should mobilize its own okay although it's still pragmatic but aesthetic reasoning for example for example ecology. Ecology is not
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material in the immediate sense this is the way to approach ecology not in this panicky way our world is falling apart and so on and so on but
material in the immediate sense this is the way to approach ecology not in this panicky way our world is falling apart and so on and so on but
Slavoj Žižek
in a cause I see ecology as one field of this and so on and so on. The crucial thing for me is not to play this I think the main aesthetic card I would have played is we are the true moral majority. We stand for decency for ordinary people. So even if this means and that's where I get attacked here that we you know many leftists are hypocrites. The more marginal further out a group is more we should sympathize with them yes of course but there is some inverted racism here. I think the left should reinvent its own aesthetic policy which is again it's not just material
in a cause I see ecology as one field of this and so on and so on. The crucial thing for me is not to play this I think the main aesthetic card I would have played is we are the true moral majority. We stand for decency for ordinary people. So even if this means and that's where I get attacked here that we you know many leftists are hypocrites. The more marginal further out a group is more we should sympathize with them yes of course but there is some inverted racism here. I think the left should reinvent its own aesthetic policy which is again it's not just material
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profit it's also common morality decency all this moral rage usually mobilized
profit it's also common morality decency all this moral rage usually mobilized
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by by the conservatives. This is a
by by the conservatives. This is a
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unique chance with Trump's open obscenity that we we occupy that field. Sorry my my wife will kill me
unique chance with Trump's open obscenity that we we occupy that field. Sorry my my wife will kill me
Slavoj Žižek
where are we now I'm sorry I fuck it okay five minutes more five minutes more. Okay well I guess just because my wife will kill me. We we began by talking about movies
where are we now I'm sorry I fuck it okay five minutes more five minutes more. Okay well I guess just because my wife will kill me. We we began by talking about movies
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and popular culture and I think most of our audience is
and popular culture and I think most of our audience is
Slavoj Žižek
probably most familiar with you know Pervert's Guide to Ideology and Cinema because you know there's lots of those scenes. I'm not kidding I haven't I haven't seen it. I hate so much my own voice so that I cannot watch myself on screen it's not a joke for more than like five seconds I but you know we are doing now the third one. Oh excellent. It's the trilogy. We wanted to do Pervert's Guide to God, Pervert's Guide to Opera this was considered not commercial enough it will be very boring Pervert's Guide to 21st Century just all these new tendencies. Well this one bring it back down to to their level because like I said they're
probably most familiar with you know Pervert's Guide to Ideology and Cinema because you know there's lots of those scenes. I'm not kidding I haven't I haven't seen it. I hate so much my own voice so that I cannot watch myself on screen it's not a joke for more than like five seconds I but you know we are doing now the third one. Oh excellent. It's the trilogy. We wanted to do Pervert's Guide to God, Pervert's Guide to Opera this was considered not commercial enough it will be very boring Pervert's Guide to 21st Century just all these new tendencies. Well this one bring it back down to to their level because like I said they're
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they're slobs and philistines. Uh just any any anything you... I'm a slob or snob? Slob. Slob. Snob. Slob because I am a snob you know I am a I live as an ordinary guy I have only jeans but once a year I go to my son that's how I spend money to super luxury hotel like
they're slobs and philistines. Uh just any any anything you... I'm a slob or snob? Slob. Slob. Snob. Slob because I am a snob you know I am a I live as an ordinary guy I have only jeans but once a year I go to my son that's how I spend money to super luxury hotel like
Slavoj Žižek
I was you know that in Dubai Burj Al Arab. Yeah yeah. I was there
I was you know that in Dubai Burj Al Arab. Yeah yeah. I was there
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for a week. Oh must have been must have been nice yeah. You know sorry let's go on. I mean just last question uh we we started out talking about like movies and popular culture like is there anything that you've noticed recently in in film or
for a week. Oh must have been must have been nice yeah. You know sorry let's go on. I mean just last question uh we we started out talking about like movies and popular culture like is there anything that you've noticed recently in in film or
Slavoj Žižek
television that's uh piqued your
television that's uh piqued your
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interest as an interesting psychological or ideological test? Fuck psychology no yeah but you know I will tell you something which may interest you. I'm quite fond of although sometimes they have this new age mystification but this new trend in science fiction not big
interest as an interesting psychological or ideological test? Fuck psychology no yeah but you know I will tell you something which may interest you. I'm quite fond of although sometimes they have this new age mystification but this new trend in science fiction not big
Slavoj Žižek
blockbusters I here watching big blockbusters can you swallow it am I from another era or what with all my benevolence I went to a big movie theater with my sons to watch in a big screen all the multi-stereo Avengers: Endgame. I was absolutely bored I don't get it am I do I live in why do people I got bored but this I call them B not B in sense of low quality like did you see Arrival? Yeah yes yeah. This type of modest Arrival has a very complex structure of temporal loop and so on. Or did you see a neglected but wonderfully leftist movie with John Goodman not in a comic role played Captive State. I have oh no I haven't seen that. You should okay it's actually on my queue right now. Yeah yeah it's you know we are occupied by aliens but who are like big capital. You don't see them they are just on earth to exploit our natural resources they have collaborators who rule on their behalf so officially it's peace. And then in the suburb of Chicago there is some in poor suburbs black resistance towards them and John Goodman the funny guy Flintstone whatever plays a tragic cop you think he acts for the invaders but at the end he sacrifices himself. It's a such a no special effects a little bit very but very dark atmosphere and so on this is one of the thing one of the few things that I like I must say this let's call them B-level science fiction. Or this is not science fiction is just a little bit not even alternate reality was it popular here in Europe it's all around a cult with Emma Thompson this British series Years and Years. Oh Years and Years yeah I watched it. It's so shocking because it's the way it is now just a little bit further you know you have openly racist populists more than now you have already limited wired brain you can share experience it's our world just a little bit extrapolated and all the madness of it so yes yes I see all these tendencies. In China it's the same forget the big directors. My in China interesting things are happening I don't know for how long they will be allowed to go on but not Zhang Yimou he is now sold to the states big projects mostly but how you call
blockbusters I here watching big blockbusters can you swallow it am I from another era or what with all my benevolence I went to a big movie theater with my sons to watch in a big screen all the multi-stereo Avengers: Endgame. I was absolutely bored I don't get it am I do I live in why do people I got bored but this I call them B not B in sense of low quality like did you see Arrival? Yeah yes yeah. This type of modest Arrival has a very complex structure of temporal loop and so on. Or did you see a neglected but wonderfully leftist movie with John Goodman not in a comic role played Captive State. I have oh no I haven't seen that. You should okay it's actually on my queue right now. Yeah yeah it's you know we are occupied by aliens but who are like big capital. You don't see them they are just on earth to exploit our natural resources they have collaborators who rule on their behalf so officially it's peace. And then in the suburb of Chicago there is some in poor suburbs black resistance towards them and John Goodman the funny guy Flintstone whatever plays a tragic cop you think he acts for the invaders but at the end he sacrifices himself. It's a such a no special effects a little bit very but very dark atmosphere and so on this is one of the thing one of the few things that I like I must say this let's call them B-level science fiction. Or this is not science fiction is just a little bit not even alternate reality was it popular here in Europe it's all around a cult with Emma Thompson this British series Years and Years. Oh Years and Years yeah I watched it. It's so shocking because it's the way it is now just a little bit further you know you have openly racist populists more than now you have already limited wired brain you can share experience it's our world just a little bit extrapolated and all the madness of it so yes yes I see all these tendencies. In China it's the same forget the big directors. My in China interesting things are happening I don't know for how long they will be allowed to go on but not Zhang Yimou he is now sold to the states big projects mostly but how you call
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it Jia Zhangke did you see a Chinese movie already ten years back called Still Life and some others. It's excellent he does this just about despair like Still Life is about one of those cities when they
it Jia Zhangke did you see a Chinese movie already ten years back called Still Life and some others. It's excellent he does this just about despair like Still Life is about one of those cities when they
Slavoj Žižek
were building that mega dam that went under water. And there a husband is looking for his wife who abandoned him and another wife for her husband and this everyday tensions there it's really like Chinese Antonioni. It's no direct dissidence just this silent despair of of daily life and so on and so on. But on TV series I'm here an old fetishist. My formula is Scandinavian noir. Not just all those wonderful were they popular here Danish
were building that mega dam that went under water. And there a husband is looking for his wife who abandoned him and another wife for her husband and this everyday tensions there it's really like Chinese Antonioni. It's no direct dissidence just this silent despair of of daily life and so on and so on. But on TV series I'm here an old fetishist. My formula is Scandinavian noir. Not just all those wonderful were they popular here Danish
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series The Bridge, The Killing. Yeah they were remade in America. I know I know but the original is better. My favorite is
series The Bridge, The Killing. Yeah they were remade in America. I know I know but the original is better. My favorite is
Slavoj Žižek
now was it popular here Trapped, the Iceland series? Small town one in north of Iceland they are all in avalanche a murder happens there all local tensions and so on very dark and so on wonderful
now was it popular here Trapped, the Iceland series? Small town one in north of Iceland they are all in avalanche a murder happens there all local tensions and so on very dark and so on wonderful
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atmosphere.
atmosphere.
Slavoj Žižek
Iceland is my sorry
Iceland is my sorry
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Iceland is my cultural ideal today. Do you know that the whole city-nation has less
Iceland is my cultural ideal today. Do you know that the whole city-nation has less
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than three hundred thousand people? They have one big detective writer no they have dozens but the biggest is Arnaldur
than three hundred thousand people? They have one big detective writer no they have dozens but the biggest is Arnaldur
Slavoj Žižek
Indriðason. You know how many copies there on Iceland his last book sold? Fifty thousand. You know what it means it's like Bible every family and now he is also a world bestseller and so on. You know what I like about this Scandinavian noir we old social democratic left welfare state guys we don't like Stalinism but we perceive nonetheless Scandinavian countries they did it. They did it but nonetheless the beauty is how already with Stieg Larsson with Henning Mankell all the silent despair comes out. This is maybe so I do you know for example that Sweden with all the happiness and so on has one of the highest suicide rates in the world and so on. This is this is what I follow this good dark TV series I'm the only thing that when I'm in a bad mood the only thing that keeps me alive is that you show me a universe which is too dark even for me okay I'm not on the bottom of shit there is something and so on. So do you have anything new here my wife is a chain-smoking TV addicted she watches everything good series and shit like it's good that she is not here don't you have now about ultra-rich family Succession or what? Yes yes that's what my and with my our evenings are I work on my PC but like with one ear I listen to that and this is an interesting I I'm so sad I don't have a good theory what fascinates me with this new TV series is that it's no longer the old formula of although HBO sometimes still does it once a week I like this idea that they release it the whole season at once and then even the guy David Simon who I forgot his name who did The Wire. David Simon, yeah. Yeah he said this is not TV series this is a forty hour movie and ideally you should just take one weekend fill yourself with drugs not to fall asleep and watch I love this I love this that T- I think that this is the other side of blockbusters everybody knows it movies occupied movie domain occupied by stupid blockbusters and then TV series are the thing today. And on another thing that interests me but I'm too stupid to play them I seriously have consider thoughts that maybe even video games have a narrative potential are becoming an do you know how important they are? People don't know that three-four years ago video games have beaten movie and TV they turn around more money and some of them are wonderful even educationally like I like to play I you game you game any of them at all? No I'm too stupid but my son is a fanatic like what does he what does he play?
Indriðason. You know how many copies there on Iceland his last book sold? Fifty thousand. You know what it means it's like Bible every family and now he is also a world bestseller and so on. You know what I like about this Scandinavian noir we old social democratic left welfare state guys we don't like Stalinism but we perceive nonetheless Scandinavian countries they did it. They did it but nonetheless the beauty is how already with Stieg Larsson with Henning Mankell all the silent despair comes out. This is maybe so I do you know for example that Sweden with all the happiness and so on has one of the highest suicide rates in the world and so on. This is this is what I follow this good dark TV series I'm the only thing that when I'm in a bad mood the only thing that keeps me alive is that you show me a universe which is too dark even for me okay I'm not on the bottom of shit there is something and so on. So do you have anything new here my wife is a chain-smoking TV addicted she watches everything good series and shit like it's good that she is not here don't you have now about ultra-rich family Succession or what? Yes yes that's what my and with my our evenings are I work on my PC but like with one ear I listen to that and this is an interesting I I'm so sad I don't have a good theory what fascinates me with this new TV series is that it's no longer the old formula of although HBO sometimes still does it once a week I like this idea that they release it the whole season at once and then even the guy David Simon who I forgot his name who did The Wire. David Simon, yeah. Yeah he said this is not TV series this is a forty hour movie and ideally you should just take one weekend fill yourself with drugs not to fall asleep and watch I love this I love this that T- I think that this is the other side of blockbusters everybody knows it movies occupied movie domain occupied by stupid blockbusters and then TV series are the thing today. And on another thing that interests me but I'm too stupid to play them I seriously have consider thoughts that maybe even video games have a narrative potential are becoming an do you know how important they are? People don't know that three-four years ago video games have beaten movie and TV they turn around more money and some of them are wonderful even educationally like I like to play I you game you game any of them at all? No I'm too stupid but my son is a fanatic like what does he what does he play?
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For example
For example
Slavoj Žižek
Assassin's the
Assassin's the
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game I enjoyed
game I enjoyed
Slavoj Žižek
how through help of I spoke to a guy who was there with production and told me they employed sixty historians. It's a wonderful idea to reconstruct Jerusalem in eleven thirty then Rome in thirteenth century and so on and so on. No I I try to be open towards this I'm not I'm not conservative here but I'm still basically a creature of twentieth century which means movies. Yeah and I I you know what I do in desperate times like this. I watch old Hollywood stuff. Sure. My enemy is Marlon Brando actor studio psychology. My favorite actor is somebody like Cary Grant no spontaneity you know totally totally non-psychological actor. He acts himself like he... it's I try to enlighten younger generations do you know what big things you get in Hollywood of those years like Ernst Lubitsch did you see To Be or Not to Be. Yeah definitely. One of the absolute comedy or Trouble in Paradise and so on and so on. Old Hollywood is for me the real thing. Big fan of Ninotchka as well. No Ninotchka is a little bit suspicious my biggest Ernst Lubitsch for me is Trouble in Paradise it's breathtaking and so on. But you know we even in Slovenia we are crazy the daughter of Lubitsch, Nicola Lubitsch, visited a time Slovenia and cried we organized in Berlin and in Ljubljana two times a big Ernst Lubitsch colloquium. She came there the daughter and said it's a shame you do it in shitty Slovenia we cannot do it in the United States. Because we then tried to repeat to reorganize the same colloquium I was even in contact with some people in Hollywood and so on and nobody wanted to do it here. Sorry I have to... well we've got some... no you now my final message to you be a good manipulator. Did you see the documentary Thin Blue Line, Errol Morris. Yes yes. Yeah you know that famous line I quote it all the time yeah where a guy says every average prosecutor can get a guilty guy condemned it takes a very good prosecutor to get an innocent guy condemned. So that's my message to you every journalist average can reproduce what I said it takes a very good journalist to use only my words but to manipulate me so that I appear saying the opposite of what I should do all the cuts and so on manipulate it. You know what's the standard procedure? You use my answer but you use it as an answer to another question. So that then I appear an idiot and so on. Do me a favor and manipulate me in. We will yeah we will alter your voice, we will edit it to make you say things you didn't do you said... Just don't do it but my voice I don't think you have to alter it it's hysterical enough. I know I know what usually right-wingers are doing it that so you don't know I think I'm nervous enough. The problem is not the voice maybe you should even raise the rhythm so that I appear
how through help of I spoke to a guy who was there with production and told me they employed sixty historians. It's a wonderful idea to reconstruct Jerusalem in eleven thirty then Rome in thirteenth century and so on and so on. No I I try to be open towards this I'm not I'm not conservative here but I'm still basically a creature of twentieth century which means movies. Yeah and I I you know what I do in desperate times like this. I watch old Hollywood stuff. Sure. My enemy is Marlon Brando actor studio psychology. My favorite actor is somebody like Cary Grant no spontaneity you know totally totally non-psychological actor. He acts himself like he... it's I try to enlighten younger generations do you know what big things you get in Hollywood of those years like Ernst Lubitsch did you see To Be or Not to Be. Yeah definitely. One of the absolute comedy or Trouble in Paradise and so on and so on. Old Hollywood is for me the real thing. Big fan of Ninotchka as well. No Ninotchka is a little bit suspicious my biggest Ernst Lubitsch for me is Trouble in Paradise it's breathtaking and so on. But you know we even in Slovenia we are crazy the daughter of Lubitsch, Nicola Lubitsch, visited a time Slovenia and cried we organized in Berlin and in Ljubljana two times a big Ernst Lubitsch colloquium. She came there the daughter and said it's a shame you do it in shitty Slovenia we cannot do it in the United States. Because we then tried to repeat to reorganize the same colloquium I was even in contact with some people in Hollywood and so on and nobody wanted to do it here. Sorry I have to... well we've got some... no you now my final message to you be a good manipulator. Did you see the documentary Thin Blue Line, Errol Morris. Yes yes. Yeah you know that famous line I quote it all the time yeah where a guy says every average prosecutor can get a guilty guy condemned it takes a very good prosecutor to get an innocent guy condemned. So that's my message to you every journalist average can reproduce what I said it takes a very good journalist to use only my words but to manipulate me so that I appear saying the opposite of what I should do all the cuts and so on manipulate it. You know what's the standard procedure? You use my answer but you use it as an answer to another question. So that then I appear an idiot and so on. Do me a favor and manipulate me in. We will yeah we will alter your voice, we will edit it to make you say things you didn't do you said... Just don't do it but my voice I don't think you have to alter it it's hysterical enough. I know I know what usually right-wingers are doing it that so you don't know I think I'm nervous enough. The problem is not the voice maybe you should even raise the rhythm so that I appear
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totally hysterical
totally hysterical
Slavoj Žižek
totally stupid. We'll be like we will speed it up by like a half. And if you want any background music please not here there please don't use some revolutionary stuff. You know those nice piano pieces Erik Satie Gymnopédies those gentle I like them always. And then I felt vindicated when I read Satie everybody takes him for the exemplary bourgeois music this chamber nice. When he died in twenty-four he was member of the Central Committee of the French Communist Party. That's
totally stupid. We'll be like we will speed it up by like a half. And if you want any background music please not here there please don't use some revolutionary stuff. You know those nice piano pieces Erik Satie Gymnopédies those gentle I like them always. And then I felt vindicated when I read Satie everybody takes him for the exemplary bourgeois music this chamber nice. When he died in twenty-four he was member of the Central Committee of the French Communist Party. That's
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my guy. There we go Slavoj Žižek everybody thank you very much for your time. Thank you, thank you.
my guy. There we go Slavoj Žižek everybody thank you very much for your time. Thank you, thank you.