The Pervert’s Guide to Podcasting
Talk · zizekpodcast.com ·
2020-11-25 · 1:38:44 · 14,615 words
ideologycapitalismcommunism-socialismliberalism-political-correctnessdemocracygeopolitics-warrace-antisemitismecology-climatetechnology-ai-cyberspacepsychoanalysishegel-dialecticseveryday-lifefascism-populism
A wide-ranging podcast interview (Red Scare) recorded during the COVID-19 pandemic in late 2020, covering Žižek's daily life, pandemic politics, surveillance capitalism, the UK Labour Party's treatment of Corbyn, political correctness and free speech debates, Black Lives Matter and concrete universality, the crisis of liberal democracy, Bolivia/Belarus/Nagorno-Karabakh geopolitics, and the thesis that the pandemic represents a structural blow to capitalism and an opening toward communist-style coordination. Žižek also discusses irony as the mark of genuine political and personal love, the narcissism debate via Christopher Lasch, and the problem of directly wired brains (Neuralink, Hegel in a Wired Brain). The conversation is informal and discursive, mixing philosophy with personal anecdote.
every located moment in this recording, click one to read it
The ideas in it 16
in the order they first come up; click a row for what he does with the idea here
as “stupidity of control”
The observation that digital surveillance systems are undermined by their own keyword-logic stupidity, illustrated by an anecdote of a British professor's romantic call being cut by Chinese censors for using Shakespearean 'protest'.
Žižek invokes it to argue that de-facto mass digital surveillance (Google as private NSA, phone-tapping, data harvesting) already exists, making proposed contact-tracing apps relatively minor by comparison.
as “obscene or grotesque master”
A new type of political leader (Trump, Lukashenko) who abandons the old aspiration to untouchable dignity and instead performs obscenity and self-mockery, becoming their own best parody and thereby defusing satirical critique.
as “nachholende Revolution”
Habermas's term for a 'catch-up revolution' that merely aspires to replicate existing liberal-democratic norms rather than imagining a genuinely new political form; Žižek applies it critically to some Belarusian opposition figures.
A codified form of mutual mockery within intimate relationships that signals the relationship is strong enough to withstand irreverence; Žižek uses it to theorize the role of irony and obscenity in genuine love.
as “postmodern president”
Žižek's label for Trump as the political embodiment of postmodern irony, total irreverence, and the collapse of grand narratives, contrasted with Bernie Sanders as an old-fashioned moralist.
One of four features of communist governance (after Badiou) that Žižek argues are being forced on us by the pandemic: the necessity to override objective economic laws and impose political will directly (e.g., mobilizing vaccine production).
as “terror (pandemic sense)”
Third Badiouan communist feature Žižek applies to pandemic governance: not Stalinist repression but enforced accountability, whistleblowing, and denunciation of non-compliance.
as “egalitarian justice”
Second of Badiou's four communist features that the pandemic imposes: the ethical acceptance that the vaccine must be universally available, making tiered survival a monstrosity.
Fourth Badiouan communist feature: the state must devolve responsibility to ordinary people because the apparatus cannot manage the pandemic alone.
Implied in Žižek's discussion of financial markets becoming totally disconnected from actual capital profitability, value circulating as pure abstraction untethered from productive reality.
Žižek uses Hegel's concrete universality to argue that 'All Lives Matter' is actually particular (covertly privileging white lives), while 'Black Lives Matter' is truly universal because it names the structurally dominant form of racism that determines all others.
as “ideology as everyday life”
Žižek's claim that capitalist ideology is not theoretical doctrine but the unquestioned acceptance woven into everyday practice; its strongest period was the 1990s post-ideological Fukuyama era, when people thought they had escaped ideology.
as “the face as ultimate mask”
Žižek's paradox that the bare human face is itself a mask, it conceals more than it reveals, and an actual mask can express one's 'true self' more than one's literal face (via Jim Carrey's The Mask).
Žižek's defense of a certain formality and non-disclosure in personal and political life: keeping private things private is a form of dignity, not repression, contra the culture of radical self-expression.
Žižek's inversion: the American culture of radical personal disclosure and 'telling your story' is not authentic self-expression but a form of social manipulation and control.
Stories he reaches for 6
Under Stalinism it was prohibited to criticize Stalin, but it was even more prohibited to publicly state 'in our country you are not allowed to criticize Stalin', the rule that enforces the prohibition cannot itself be named.
“it was prohibited to criticize Stalin but it was even more prohibited to say publicly in our country you are not allowed to criticize Stalin”
A listener asks Radio Yerevan if it's true that Rabinovich won a new car in the lottery. Answer: in principle yes, but it wasn't a new car but an old bicycle, and he didn't win it, it was stolen from him. The formula always preserves the shell of truth while negating every particular.
“in principle it's true thus it wasn't a new car but an old bicycle and he didn't win it it was stolen from him”
Chinese elementary schools equipped students with metal rings that measured brain activity so teachers could see on a screen when a student's attention fell, a primitive but real form of cognitive surveillance already in use.
“children had to wear a kind of a metal ring which at a very primitive level measures their brain activity... if you are dreaming it will immediately show as your diminished brain activity”
When visiting Ramallah, Žižek found that Palestinian Christians had the best jokes mocking Christianity and Islam, to a degree that, repeated in France, might get one killed. Used to argue that even devout religious communities are not as humorless as the West imagines.
“the best Christian jokes making fun of Christianity I heard them from Palestinian Christians”
In The Mask, when Jim Carrey puts on the mask he becomes his 'shadow', his true self. The mask releases what the ordinary face represses, illustrating that masks can tell more truth than faces.
“mask can be more you than your stupid face itself you know something that you repress have repressed can come out in a mask”
A British literature professor in China was flirting by phone using 'I protest my love for you' (Shakespearean usage of 'protest' = declare). Chinese censors' keyword system flagged 'protest' near the Tiananmen anniversary and cut the call, missing sexual content but catching Shakespeare.
“he said I protest my love for you... the control thought protest reference to Tiananmen the conversation was immediately cut off”
Works invoked 11
Less Than Nothing book
Žižek's own book, referenced because the Australian series Rake apparently has a character say 'this is not only nothing, this is less than nothing', the book's title.
Žižek's own book, cited for its exploration of what directly wired brains would mean for language, creativity, subjectivity, and sexuality.
The Mask film
Jim Carrey film used to illustrate Žižek's thesis that a mask can express the wearer's true (repressed) self more honestly than the bare face.
Žižek's own book, mentioned as the source of jokes about Christianity that he heard from Palestinian Christians.
Žižek's own book, referenced throughout as the source of his theses on pandemic, communism, BLM triad, Philip Guston, Brecht, Somali pirates, and Neuralink; the interviewers repeatedly quote from it.
Sullivan's Travels film
Preston Sturges film mentioned as having a philosophical point developed in Alenka Zupančič's work, as referenced indirectly by the Australian series Rake.
Icelandic TV series, cited as an example of the civilizational achievement represented by excellent Nordic crime drama.
US TV series about two KGB spies; Žižek says he 'quite liked it up to a point' though didn't have time to finish it.
Christopher Lasch's book, for which Žižek wrote the Croatian introduction; praised for correctly identifying what was flawed in hippie expressive culture, though Žižek now finds his own introduction 'too orthodox.'
In Praise of Communism other
Brecht poem cited for the line 'it is the simple thing that's hard to do,' used to illustrate the difficulty of straightforward systemic change versus utopian schemes.
Rake tv
Australian TV series about a 'crazy lawyer' that Žižek discovered recently and recommends; he notes it contains references to Zupančič's, Dolar's, and his own work, including a line echoing his book title 'Less Than Nothing.'
People invoked 32
Carlo Ginzburg positive
Quoted (by an interlocutor) to the effect that true love of a country means being willing to be ashamed of it when it does wrong.
Alenka Zupančič positive
Slovenian colleague and friend; the Australian TV series Rake is noted as containing references to her work alongside Žižek's and Mladen Dolar's.
Also envied, alongside Kant and Jameson, for having a productive morning work rhythm leaving the afternoon free.
Paul Krugman positive
Cited positively for a New York Times piece that 'without knowing it' reproduced Freud's broken-kettle structure in analyzing Trump's COVID argumentation.
Emmanuel Levinas negative
Agamben invokes Levinas's thesis that the other's face is our only contact with the abyss of otherness; Žižek rejects this, citing psychoanalysis as a deeper encounter that bypasses the face.
Luis Arce positive
Described as 'incredible' for winning the Bolivian election after Morales and Linera were prohibited; as Morales's Economy Minister he engineered Bolivia's economic miracle.
Described as a 'grotesque obscene' postmodern president who is his own best parody, tells obscenely true things when convenient, and follows what Žižek calls the 'Trump line' of abandoning institutional responsibility.
Álvaro García Linera positive
Former Bolivian vice-president mentioned with sympathy alongside Morales; both prohibited from the subsequent election.
Described as 'a grotesque obscene figure,' an example of the new type of master who has become an embarrassment; Žižek acknowledges he had genuine popular support for many years but that the model of benevolent dictatorship no longer functions.
Jeremy Corbyn positive
Žižek defends Corbyn as 'a wonderful gentle guy' who is 'absolutely not anti-semitic,' correctly linking anti-semitism and Palestinian rights as parts of the same struggle; his suspension is described as a Stalinist purge of the radical left.
Alain Badiou positive
Called 'my friend' with whom Žižek has 'differences of opinion'; Badiou's four features of radical communist governance (voluntarism, egalitarian justice, terror, trust in people) are applied to pandemic conditions.
Giorgio Agamben negative
Žižek calls him 'friendly with him otherwise' but disputes two Agamben theses: that the pandemic reduces us to biopolitical survival machines, and that the human face (via Levinas) is the only window to the Other, both rebutted as theoretically inadequate.
Bernard-Henri Lévy negative
Cited as a neo-liberal who argues that anti-capitalism is a mask for anti-semitism, a position Žižek finds not just wrong but itself relying on the anti-semitic cliché that Jews are essentially capitalists.
Elon Musk negative
Described as a 'red pill covid denier' whose Neuralink project of directly wired brains would flatten the gaps that make language, creativity, and eroticism possible; his claim that language will be obsolete in years is called 'stupidity.'
Envied for the same disciplined daily rhythm as Kant and Derrida.
Discussed as an example of the obscene or grotesque leader avant la lettre; survived Stalin by playing the role of fat drunk clown; represents the last period when Soviet leadership still believed in communism.
Bruno Latour positive
Cited approvingly for his claim that COVID is a dress rehearsal for the ecological catastrophes to come; Žižek notes he 'doesn't always agree' with Latour.
Bernie Sanders positive
Described as 'an old-fashioned wonderful moralist' who genuinely speaks with ordinary people; contrasted positively with Trump's postmodern irony.
Julian Assange positive
Žižek endorses Assange's claim that Google is a private NSA, and notes that anti-semitism accusations were used to discredit him.
Bertolt Brecht positive
Quoted for 'In Praise of Communism' where 'the simple thing is hard to do'; also cited for his deathbed request for a surgeon to pierce his heart immediately after death to prevent premature burial.
Yanis Varoufakis positive
Called 'my good friend,' cited for his analysis that financial markets have become disconnected from actual capital profitability; also mentioned as a target of anti-semitism instrumentalization via DiEM.
Mladen Dolar positive
Slovenian colleague whose work is also referenced in the Australian TV series Rake.
Evo Morales positive
Described with great sympathy; the coup against him is explained by his government's economic success even for capitalists, the establishment could not tolerate a left that worked.
Angela Nagle positive
Credited with nicely detecting the shift whereby the right, not the left, now does the ugly transgressive gestures, a reversal of the 1970s-80s pattern.
Bill Gates negative
Cited as exemplifying the techno-utopian dream of a socially distanced, digitally connected future, a Matrix-like bubble existence that Žižek finds dystopian.
James Harvey positive
Cinema theorist, recently deceased, who wrote the best book on Ernst Lubitsch; described as applying Lasch's critique to Hollywood by condemning the Actor's Studio method (Brando, Clift) in favor of non-expressive stars like Cary Grant.
Keir Starmer negative
Described as presiding over a Tony Blair-style retaking of Labour; his statement that the antisemitism report was 'a day of shame for the Labour Party' is turned back: the real shame is the Stalinist purge of the radical left.
Christopher Lasch positive
Žižek wrote the introduction to the Croatian edition of The Culture of Narcissism; calls himself 'absolutely on his side' against the expressive hippie culture Lasch criticized, though says after Narcissism Lasch was 'a one-hit wonder.'
Term 'nachholende Revolution' (catch-up revolution) applied to describe some Belarusian opposition figures who simply want to replicate existing Western liberal democracy.
Referenced as the main psychoanalytic framework for Žižek's early Lasch introduction, described as 'too orthodox' and 'too traditionally psychoanalytic' from his current standpoint.
Sigmund Freud positive
Cited for the broken-kettle joke and for the wisdom of placing the analytic patient on a couch (face unseen) as the condition of genuine encounter with the Other, against Levinas's face-to-face ethics.
Envied by Žižek for his disciplined daily work routine: up early, work done by noon, free the whole afternoon.
What it argues
pandemic as structural crisis of capitalismstate abandonment of pandemic responsibilitysurveillance capitalism and digital controlpolitical irony vs. nationalist fanaticismconcrete universality and Black Lives Matterthe obscene or grotesque leader (Trump, Lukashenko)political correctness as cynical elitismcommunism as desperate necessity not utopia
Dialectical moves 7
“'All Lives Matter' is a particular statement masquerading as universal, while 'Black Lives Matter' is the genuinely universal one.”
By naming the structurally dominant form of racism rather than pretending all racisms are equal, the particular claim achieves true universality, a Hegelian concrete universal.
“The strongest period of ideology is when you believe you are out of ideology.”
The post-ideological self-understanding of the 1990s (Fukuyama's end of history) was itself the apex of ideological capture, not its escape.
“The face is the ultimate mask.”
Rather than being the transparent window to the self (as in Levinas), the bare face conceals more than it reveals; an actual worn mask can express one's true self more faithfully.
“Openness is the ultimate manipulation.”
The American culture of radical self-disclosure and 'telling your story' presents itself as authentic liberation but functions as a form of social control and manipulation.
“Fanatics are precisely those who do not really believe—their fanaticism compensates for an underlying lack of belief.”
The more desperate the fanatical attachment to an identity or cause, the more it signals that the subject does not truly inhabit it; irony is the mark of genuine belonging.
“No Lives Matter is the truth of 'All Lives Matter' — the Hegelian synthesis of the triad All Lives Matter / Black Lives Matter / No Lives Matter.”
The negation of both partial positions reveals the broader crisis: under late capitalism, no lives are treated as genuinely mattering, making the struggle for dignity irreducible to mere biopolitical survival.
“We are more connected than ever digitally, which is why it is now more difficult than ever to be really alone.”
The pandemic paradox: bodily isolation increases while digital socialization intensifies, making genuine solitude, a condition of subjectivity, harder to achieve, not easier.
Claims 23
asserts
The state is systematically offloading pandemic responsibility onto individuals—a process Žižek calls 'following the Trump line'—by renouncing contact tracing, quarantine requirements, and finally any institutional control.state abdication during COVID-19
asserts
De-facto mass digital surveillance already exists (Google as private NSA, Israeli phone recording), so the public scandal over contact-tracing apps is relatively hypocritical.surveillance capitalism and digital privacy
asserts
Anti-semitism is being weaponized by the establishment to discredit any sufficiently radical left critique of capitalism, as in the cases of Corbyn, Sanders, Assange, and Varoufakis.instrumentalization of anti-semitism accusations
asserts
The equation of anti-capitalism with anti-semitism is itself based on an old anti-semitic cliché—that Jews are essentially capitalists—which makes the accusation self-refuting.the UK Education Department's anti-capitalism prohibition
asserts
Jeremy Corbyn is not anti-semitic; his position—that the fight against anti-semitism and for Palestinian rights are part of the same struggle—is correct, and his suspension is a Stalinist-style purge of the radical left.Jeremy Corbyn and Labour Party
asserts
There is a dangerous gap between the representational system of elections and the actual everyday discontent of ordinary people, a gap that cannot be properly translated into electoral results.crisis of liberal democratic representation
asserts
Fanatics are not genuine believers; their fanatical intensity is a symptom of not really believing in their own stance.nationalism and fanaticism
asserts
True love of country requires the capacity to be ashamed of one's own country when it does wrong; those incapable of irony toward their nation do not truly love it.national identity, irony, and patriotism
asserts
The 'All Lives Matter' slogan is a false universal that actually privileges white lives; 'Black Lives Matter' is the genuinely universal statement because it names the structurally dominant form of racism.Black Lives Matter and Hegelian universality
rejects
Agamben is wrong that COVID reduces politics to mere biopolitical survival; fighting the pandemic is also a struggle for dignity and justice, not just a numbers game.Agamben's biopolitics and COVID
asserts
The pandemic, together with ecological crisis and racism, is not three separate crises but a set of interconnected symptoms of a single global way of life; conservative strategy deliberately prevents seeing this link.COVID, ecology, and capitalism as interconnected
asserts
The pandemic is a heavy blow, perhaps a death blow, to capitalism, and a new form of capitalism is already emerging—with financial markets radically disconnected from the profitability of actual capital.capitalism's transformation under COVID
asserts
The pandemic forces upon us four features historically associated with communist governance (voluntarism, egalitarian justice, terror, trust in the people), suggesting communism is a desperate necessity rather than a utopian fantasy.pandemic and communist governance features
asserts
COVID is a dress rehearsal for the ecological catastrophes coming with global warming (following Bruno Latour).pandemic and ecological crisis
rejects
Elon Musk's Neuralink project and the idea of directly wired brains would abolish the gap that makes language, creativity, and eroticism possible—making a flat, impoverished social life.Neuralink and digital brain-wiring
reframes
The real consequence of the pandemic is not loss of social connectivity but loss of bodily proximity, while digital connectivity has never been greater—making genuine solitude more difficult than ever.pandemic and social isolation
asserts
Political correctness is deeply cynical, not genuinely moralistic: its enforcers use it selectively, treating non-canonical minorities (Eastern Europeans, poor immigrant women) in ways that would be condemned as racist if directed at approved minorities.political correctness and cynicism
asserts
The strongest period of ideology is when you believe you have escaped ideology—the 1990s Fukuyama end-of-history era was the peak of ideological capture, not its absence.ideology and post-ideological illusion
rejects
Agamben's Levinasian claim that the human face is our only window to the Other's abyss is wrong: in psychoanalysis the most profound encounter with the Other happens when the face is hidden (patient on the couch).Levinas, the face, and psychoanalytic encounter
asserts
Bolivia under Morales succeeded economically even for capitalists, which is precisely why a coup had to be staged against him—the ruling establishment needs the left to fail to delegitimize it.Bolivia, Morales, and the coup
asserts
Trump telling the truth openly when it is too obscene to say (e.g. openly admitting he wants to suppress Democratic votes by defunding the post office) is more terrifying than his lies.Trump, truth-telling, and obscenity
asserts
A quick early lockdown is better even from a purely economic standpoint; delaying it makes the economic damage worse in the long run.lockdown policy and economic reasoning
asserts
The Khrushchev period was the last moment when the Soviet ruling circle still genuinely believed in communism; from Brezhnev onward the game was pure cynicism.Soviet history and ideological belief
Quotes 14
“the strongest period of ideology for me was 1990s the Fukuyama era where we thought we are out of ideology”Slavoj Žižek · ideology is most powerful when invisible
“the face is at the same time I would put it the ultimate mask”Slavoj Žižek · face as mask paradox
“this openness is the ultimate manipulation”Slavoj Žižek · radical self-disclosure as manipulation
“fanatics are not the ones who really believe in this stance and that's why they have to be so desperately fanatic”Slavoj Žižek · fanaticism as symptom of non-belief
“you only belong to a country when you are ready when your country does something wrong to be ashamed of your own country”Slavoj Žižek · shame as mark of genuine patriotism
“the universal statement all lives matter is really a particular one... if you say Black Lives Matter not all lives matter you are really universal”Slavoj Žižek · concrete universality / Black Lives Matter
“Google is basically a private version of NSA National Security Agency”Slavoj Žižek · surveillance capitalism / Google as NSA
“Trump is a postmodern president... Bernie was an old-fashioned wonderful moralist”Slavoj Žižek · Trump as postmodern vs. Sanders as moralist
“mask can be more you than your stupid face itself you know something that you repress have repressed can come out in a mask”Slavoj Žižek · mask as more authentic than face
“I am not afraid to die I'm afraid of dying”Slavoj Žižek · fear of dying vs. fear of death
“in principle it's true thus it wasn't a new car but an old bicycle and he didn't win it it was stolen from him”Slavoj Žižek · Radio Yerevan formula / negation that preserves form
“I think Julian Assange was right when he said that Google is basically a private version of NSA”Slavoj Žižek · surveillance capitalism
“covid is just a dress rehearsal for global warming and other ecological catastrophes coming”Slavoj Žižek · pandemic as ecological rehearsal (Latour)
“the problem is not to politicize the pandemic but to see the link between pandemic and our global way of life”Slavoj Žižek · pandemic-ecology-capitalism nexus
Transcript 174 turns
unknown
My first question for you is you're a very prolific guy are you a morning or a night person
My first question for you is you're a very prolific guy are you a morning or a night person
Slavoj Žižek
it's interesting point it's quite a tragedy I didn't yet discover a proper formula of my day what happens regularly is that I sleep long then I get up earlier than my wife which means that I have to prepare breakfast run to a store if it's still possible and so on then after that it's lunch I get so what I wanted to say is that in this way almost every day I find myself at let's say p.m. and I didn't do
it's interesting point it's quite a tragedy I didn't yet discover a proper formula of my day what happens regularly is that I sleep long then I get up earlier than my wife which means that I have to prepare breakfast run to a store if it's still possible and so on then after that it's lunch I get so what I wanted to say is that in this way almost every day I find myself at let's say p.m. and I didn't do
unknown
anything productive reading
anything productive reading
Slavoj Žižek
writing so then I try to use that time till midnight a.m. to work which means that that I never have a time to enjoy myself and so on and so on I didn't find a good formula whom I envy is there are a couple of persons two of them I knew myself and from history of philosophy Immanuel Kant Jacques Derrida and and Fredric Jameson who I envy them so much they have a rhythm you get up around in the morning and you do the work from like half past till or noon and then you are free all the afternoon and you go to sleep after the evening news at and so on but I like this idea that there is noon or p.m. and you are free I cannot do it also I have a heavy diabetes so I get tired very quickly and so on and so on no but my ideal would have been this to rise early in the morning and to go to sleep earlier yeah well I mean
writing so then I try to use that time till midnight a.m. to work which means that that I never have a time to enjoy myself and so on and so on I didn't find a good formula whom I envy is there are a couple of persons two of them I knew myself and from history of philosophy Immanuel Kant Jacques Derrida and and Fredric Jameson who I envy them so much they have a rhythm you get up around in the morning and you do the work from like half past till or noon and then you are free all the afternoon and you go to sleep after the evening news at and so on but I like this idea that there is noon or p.m. and you are free I cannot do it also I have a heavy diabetes so I get tired very quickly and so on and so on no but my ideal would have been this to rise early in the morning and to go to sleep earlier yeah well I mean
unknown
this work-life balance is tricky for us as well um so you're in Slovenia you've been in lockdown for a week you said
this work-life balance is tricky for us as well um so you're in Slovenia you've been in lockdown for a week you said
Slavoj Žižek
no now but we have another had another lockdown in late March early April but it's a nice proof how when do you feel really threatened by covid how it's also part of certain ideological but maybe even more simply psychological mechanisms I remember Slovenia a small country two million inhabitants had when it the first wave was at its at its worst had maximum like cases per day and we were already in a panic now a couple of days ago we had on a day in one day and people were not in such a panic so you see it's all I don't know what you expect perception and so on and so on only now panic is setting in really now it's by far the worst for us per capita we and the Czech Republic and Belgium I think are the worst in Europe but maybe so that I just don't just tell stories you know what interests me so much when I say interests me it means I find it horrible of course yeah not only you in the United States here also all around Europe and here the state is simply silently doing what I call following the Trump line losing or renouncing even control the first step was when they publicly declared that they are not able to trace your contacts if you are positive you know they cannot do this so what they did is this first now to get tested you have to wait for days blah blah then till four five weeks ago it was that if you were in a close contact with a person who tested positive you had to go to a quarantine now they renounce this they said not enough people in the hospitals and so on if you are in a contact with a person who tested positive no quarantine you go on working till you feel that something is wrong now in many European countries about a week ago they went a step further even if you test positive or feel the symptoms you don't go into quarantine you continue to work because they lack so many personnel nurses doctors in the hospitals it's simply that doctors with covid are going on working and you if you test positive as a private person or whatever they don't do the job for you you have to try to remember who were you in contact with and inform them and so on and so on so it's simply that the state is renouncing offloading their responsibility onto
no now but we have another had another lockdown in late March early April but it's a nice proof how when do you feel really threatened by covid how it's also part of certain ideological but maybe even more simply psychological mechanisms I remember Slovenia a small country two million inhabitants had when it the first wave was at its at its worst had maximum like cases per day and we were already in a panic now a couple of days ago we had on a day in one day and people were not in such a panic so you see it's all I don't know what you expect perception and so on and so on only now panic is setting in really now it's by far the worst for us per capita we and the Czech Republic and Belgium I think are the worst in Europe but maybe so that I just don't just tell stories you know what interests me so much when I say interests me it means I find it horrible of course yeah not only you in the United States here also all around Europe and here the state is simply silently doing what I call following the Trump line losing or renouncing even control the first step was when they publicly declared that they are not able to trace your contacts if you are positive you know they cannot do this so what they did is this first now to get tested you have to wait for days blah blah then till four five weeks ago it was that if you were in a close contact with a person who tested positive you had to go to a quarantine now they renounce this they said not enough people in the hospitals and so on if you are in a contact with a person who tested positive no quarantine you go on working till you feel that something is wrong now in many European countries about a week ago they went a step further even if you test positive or feel the symptoms you don't go into quarantine you continue to work because they lack so many personnel nurses doctors in the hospitals it's simply that doctors with covid are going on working and you if you test positive as a private person or whatever they don't do the job for you you have to try to remember who were you in contact with and inform them and so on and so on so it's simply that the state is renouncing offloading their responsibility onto
unknown
us I find this horrible my
us I find this horrible my
Slavoj Žižek
doctor an old lady with whom I have good contact told me that it's horrible that now you have departments okay yes in our main hospital where positive doctors and nurses treat positive patients everybody is simply positive
doctor an old lady with whom I have good contact told me that it's horrible that now you have departments okay yes in our main hospital where positive doctors and nurses treat positive patients everybody is simply positive
unknown
there that sounds very positive um but sounds very positive um let me ask you but on the on the flip side um there was like kind of a scandal in New York City a little bit of a minor scandal because Cuomo announced that he would develop or either or roll out an app that would track your movements and your contacts throughout as you went you know about your daily life um are you on board with that is that something that you think
there that sounds very positive um but sounds very positive um let me ask you but on the on the flip side um there was like kind of a scandal in New York City a little bit of a minor scandal because Cuomo announced that he would develop or either or roll out an app that would track your movements and your contacts throughout as you went you know about your daily life um are you on board with that is that something that you think
Slavoj Žižek
here it will be probably a bad surprise for you I don't the reason I don't care so much about this is that I'm more of a pessimist listen from what I know from my private contacts in United States that's all that I learned from Assange Google in in China or in Israel I know but they are de facto already doing it I spoke with an Israeli guy who told me that they are recording all phone conversations already for years
here it will be probably a bad surprise for you I don't the reason I don't care so much about this is that I'm more of a pessimist listen from what I know from my private contacts in United States that's all that I learned from Assange Google in in China or in Israel I know but they are de facto already doing it I spoke with an Israeli guy who told me that they are recording all phone conversations already for years
unknown
they're already tracking us they already so they are already doing
they're already tracking us they already so they are already doing
Slavoj Žižek
all this as we learned from all these Facebook scandals and so on I think Julian Assange was right when he said that that Google is basically a private version of National of NSA National Security Agency you know so I find it just a little bit hypocritical of making such a fuss out of this when at a much more brutal level in all developed or even not so developed countries they were already doing it of course it's not perfect control because machines are stupid you know because you don't have enough people of course then half the population would have to listen to the other half all the time you don't get enough people to listen to these conversations so they have to use computer programs no and keywords and blah blah but no you probably don't know the story a British professor of literature who worked in China told me of a comic complication he had there especially when there is the Tiananmen massacre anniversary and so on they they tape they control all phone calls at least foreign ones international calls so this guy told me he was flirting with a lady other professor in England and he he you know the story about protesting no he because they were all like snobbish literature and so on he said I protest my love for you no because in Shakespeare the verb protest means like defiantly publicly declare you know yes right oh I see where this is going the control thought protest reference to Tiananmen the the conversation was immediately cut off and what I like is this stupidity of control you say you see while let's say sorry for vulgarity you can erase this it's okay if he were to say imagine I want to screw your brain out of vulgarity it would have been okay but because he caught Shakespeare no it was instantly cut off and so on so what I'm saying is that you know the fear in Europe is more a different one among the majority that all this control recording or movement and so on is not really efficient that we are at a loss many of my friends maybe they are secret totalitarians are telling me I don't care if they trace my movement just where are the results you know in spite of all these numbers are still exploding and so on and so on surveillance capitalism I think we have to admit even doctors that we there are so many things we don't know well I guess the sorry somebody's calling or no no no I guess the big question to ask if you accept the kind of presence of these apps and devices and stuff in our in our yeah in our lives then like um is it just another kind of sub-industry to create meaningless jobs or will there be um actual results um I want to change topics a little bit so yesterday no no no just go on I mean you in charge I mean yeah yesterday was a very big day for the left um what do you think of uh Jeremy Corbyn being booted from the Labour Party and Glenn Greenwald resigning from The Intercept in the same day you know Keir Starmer or how the recent boss of the Labour Party said after hearing that report that it's a reading that report on anti-semitism in the Labour Party that it's a day of shame for the Labour Party I think it's a day of shame indeed but because they they how do they call this it's not yet pure Stalinist purge they suspended Jeremy Corbyn if you ask me Corbyn was right namely you know I link this to another ominous thing I wrote a short text but it didn't get very popular I think you know what happened about a month ago yeah exactly at the end of September in United Kingdom their Department of Education gave to all schools university universities high schools and so on it's horrible text a clear unambiguous order that prohibits them to use as part of the curriculum or literature any documents that criticize or are negative towards capitalism and then they go a step further and say because those who are anti-capitalism that anti-capitalism implies in these terms limiting of human freedoms advocacy of violence and anti-semitism now I find this horrible I think that although when I see
all this as we learned from all these Facebook scandals and so on I think Julian Assange was right when he said that that Google is basically a private version of National of NSA National Security Agency you know so I find it just a little bit hypocritical of making such a fuss out of this when at a much more brutal level in all developed or even not so developed countries they were already doing it of course it's not perfect control because machines are stupid you know because you don't have enough people of course then half the population would have to listen to the other half all the time you don't get enough people to listen to these conversations so they have to use computer programs no and keywords and blah blah but no you probably don't know the story a British professor of literature who worked in China told me of a comic complication he had there especially when there is the Tiananmen massacre anniversary and so on they they tape they control all phone calls at least foreign ones international calls so this guy told me he was flirting with a lady other professor in England and he he you know the story about protesting no he because they were all like snobbish literature and so on he said I protest my love for you no because in Shakespeare the verb protest means like defiantly publicly declare you know yes right oh I see where this is going the control thought protest reference to Tiananmen the the conversation was immediately cut off and what I like is this stupidity of control you say you see while let's say sorry for vulgarity you can erase this it's okay if he were to say imagine I want to screw your brain out of vulgarity it would have been okay but because he caught Shakespeare no it was instantly cut off and so on so what I'm saying is that you know the fear in Europe is more a different one among the majority that all this control recording or movement and so on is not really efficient that we are at a loss many of my friends maybe they are secret totalitarians are telling me I don't care if they trace my movement just where are the results you know in spite of all these numbers are still exploding and so on and so on surveillance capitalism I think we have to admit even doctors that we there are so many things we don't know well I guess the sorry somebody's calling or no no no I guess the big question to ask if you accept the kind of presence of these apps and devices and stuff in our in our yeah in our lives then like um is it just another kind of sub-industry to create meaningless jobs or will there be um actual results um I want to change topics a little bit so yesterday no no no just go on I mean you in charge I mean yeah yesterday was a very big day for the left um what do you think of uh Jeremy Corbyn being booted from the Labour Party and Glenn Greenwald resigning from The Intercept in the same day you know Keir Starmer or how the recent boss of the Labour Party said after hearing that report that it's a reading that report on anti-semitism in the Labour Party that it's a day of shame for the Labour Party I think it's a day of shame indeed but because they they how do they call this it's not yet pure Stalinist purge they suspended Jeremy Corbyn if you ask me Corbyn was right namely you know I link this to another ominous thing I wrote a short text but it didn't get very popular I think you know what happened about a month ago yeah exactly at the end of September in United Kingdom their Department of Education gave to all schools university universities high schools and so on it's horrible text a clear unambiguous order that prohibits them to use as part of the curriculum or literature any documents that criticize or are negative towards capitalism and then they go a step further and say because those who are anti-capitalism that anti-capitalism implies in these terms limiting of human freedoms advocacy of violence and anti-semitism now I find this horrible I think that although when I see
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anti-semitism I'm ready to attack it brutally but at the same time I've already written about it I think that anti-semitism is today simply used to discredit for the establishment if there is a little bit too radical critique of capitalism you know what's the irony that the usual leftist stance was anti-semitism is anti-capitalism of the primitive
anti-semitism I'm ready to attack it brutally but at the same time I've already written about it I think that anti-semitism is today simply used to discredit for the establishment if there is a little bit too radical critique of capitalism you know what's the irony that the usual leftist stance was anti-semitism is anti-capitalism of the primitive
Slavoj Žižek
people how to put it no that really this figure of a Jew who
people how to put it no that really this figure of a Jew who
unknown
grabs money and so on is a primitive representation of the capitalist no there is a moment of truth in this but now it's horrible thing and some French neo-liberals like Bernard-Henri Lévy already said this that no that it's it's anti-capitalism today
grabs money and so on is a primitive representation of the capitalist no there is a moment of truth in this but now it's horrible thing and some French neo-liberals like Bernard-Henri Lévy already said this that no that it's it's anti-capitalism today
Slavoj Žižek
which is a mask of anti-semitism so again the moment you are too anti-capitalist you are suspected of being anti-semitic you know why I find this line of argumentation horrible because it itself this line of argumentation mobilizes an old anti-semitic cliché which is that Jews are essentially capitalists you know I mean which is incidentally a crazy thing historically like look at Lenin's Politburo it was the only case in Christian history where the majority of the leading body those who really hold held power were Jews so to say that communism is a priori anti-semitic is crazy but what I want to say is that I think that you remember they use this already against Assange they use this against Bernie Sanders at the end when they tried to discredit him they use now in Europe against the Greek guy DiEM Yanis Varoufakis and they already used it a year or two ago against Corbyn I think I even know people I almost met him Corbyn is a wonderful gentle guy the problem is that I'm almost tempted to say he is too good for this world you know he's absolutely not anti-semitic he just follows the line that I tried to formulate once a year ago where I said that for me the struggle against anti-semitism and the struggle for Palestinian rights are part of the same struggle that's what all my good friends from Israel claim they they said that they said that today to be really faithful to what is the greatest thing in the Jewish legacy is to try to understand Palestinians so it's a very tragic fact and again I think this is what explains this throwing out of Corbyn it's really an attempt to purge out of the political space a little bit more radical left and it's happening all around the world this was about another person or rather two three persons with whom I have great sympathy Morales and Linera Álvaro García Linera the ex-vice president of Bolivia and now the guy who even made a comeback it's incredible Lucho Arce because the first two were prohibited to participate in the elections Lucho Arce who was the mastermind the Minister of Economy during Morales' rule and he did a miracle it's not the usual leftist thing of you know screwing up things and then blaming imperialists or whatever ordinary people in Bolivia even the capitalists never had it so good as during the years under Morales and my theory is that that's why there had to be a coup against Morales Linera and so on because you know those in power in our establishment they like the radical left to take power once every years and then they successfully through screw things up economically so that they can say you see if you allow them to rule but in Bolivia they succeeded that's why they had to do it now we'll see what will happen but I think that what happened recently in Bolivia the return through democratic election to power of the Morales party and in Chile this apruebo referendum only now they will really get rid of the Pinochet dictatorship legacy because yes in when Chile did return to democracy but it was based on a constitution imposed by Pinochet himself you know not not too [unintelligible] protecting the rich and so on all the stuff so there are some interesting things going on here and there but what do you think is in store for the Labour Party in the UK it's simply that this Tony Blair more traditional orientation took over again and the reason I am not glad about it it's not only because I am more radical leftist but because as I wrote in another text what worries me a lot recently in the United States in Europe is this gap between representational system of elections and the major and how should I call it the gap feeling the everyday life experience of many ordinary people and there is a certain level of discontent which simply cannot be translated transposed properly into electoral results for example I often use this example some even more years ago no it was maybe a little bit later in the last years of Tony Blair rule in United States I was in England just a week before elections there was some big TV show you know asking people big opinion poll who is the most hated person in the United Kingdom Tony Blair won by far a week later he won the elections again so it's very paradoxical how and in this discontent obviously there was some kind of discontent with the people it wasn't possible to politicize it properly it's the same wait a minute it's the same with France you remember when did it begin a year ago something like that the yellow vests protests right yeah when they tried to politicize themselves they accepted dialogue with Macron it was all watered down it was protest which it wasn't possible to politicize it the same happened I know I'm friends with many of them with Podemos you remember two years ago and so on in Spain once they decided to enter the state politics they are now part of the government they became just another not even very radical like social democratic whatever you call it party so this gap worries me worries me very much and I think Trump also functions in this way that's why against Trump I don't think it's enough to say he is threatening our democracy let's return to our no that traditional liberal democracy no longer properly well I totally agree I'd like to I'd like to talk a little bit about Belarus actually because in Pandemic in the chapter Father or Worse you sort of compare the protests in Belarus to the yellow vests and discuss about the way that the real trouble begins once you overthrow your authoritarian ruler your Batka like Lukashenko but then you have to reckon with all of these things you know many people I know hated me so much of that text as if I am pro-Lukashenko or whatever I'm not crazy he is a nice example of what some of my friends theorists already developed as the new grotesque or obscene master you know Trump is also a master in this you know the old masters masters in the sense of political public figure leader boss they played this rule of untouchable dignity you know this dignity was never they were aspirational sorry they were aspirational yeah we are we are losing these terms because you know Trump likes to use it you know when Trump said was quoted saying that the covid will be over in April he said this in March no yeah and when somebody told him you were wrong he said no I just meant it meant it in an aspirational way you know yeah yeah no no no but what I want to say is that nonetheless I mean he should be dealt with of course I absolutely agree Lukashenko again he is a kind of grotesque obscene
which is a mask of anti-semitism so again the moment you are too anti-capitalist you are suspected of being anti-semitic you know why I find this line of argumentation horrible because it itself this line of argumentation mobilizes an old anti-semitic cliché which is that Jews are essentially capitalists you know I mean which is incidentally a crazy thing historically like look at Lenin's Politburo it was the only case in Christian history where the majority of the leading body those who really hold held power were Jews so to say that communism is a priori anti-semitic is crazy but what I want to say is that I think that you remember they use this already against Assange they use this against Bernie Sanders at the end when they tried to discredit him they use now in Europe against the Greek guy DiEM Yanis Varoufakis and they already used it a year or two ago against Corbyn I think I even know people I almost met him Corbyn is a wonderful gentle guy the problem is that I'm almost tempted to say he is too good for this world you know he's absolutely not anti-semitic he just follows the line that I tried to formulate once a year ago where I said that for me the struggle against anti-semitism and the struggle for Palestinian rights are part of the same struggle that's what all my good friends from Israel claim they they said that they said that today to be really faithful to what is the greatest thing in the Jewish legacy is to try to understand Palestinians so it's a very tragic fact and again I think this is what explains this throwing out of Corbyn it's really an attempt to purge out of the political space a little bit more radical left and it's happening all around the world this was about another person or rather two three persons with whom I have great sympathy Morales and Linera Álvaro García Linera the ex-vice president of Bolivia and now the guy who even made a comeback it's incredible Lucho Arce because the first two were prohibited to participate in the elections Lucho Arce who was the mastermind the Minister of Economy during Morales' rule and he did a miracle it's not the usual leftist thing of you know screwing up things and then blaming imperialists or whatever ordinary people in Bolivia even the capitalists never had it so good as during the years under Morales and my theory is that that's why there had to be a coup against Morales Linera and so on because you know those in power in our establishment they like the radical left to take power once every years and then they successfully through screw things up economically so that they can say you see if you allow them to rule but in Bolivia they succeeded that's why they had to do it now we'll see what will happen but I think that what happened recently in Bolivia the return through democratic election to power of the Morales party and in Chile this apruebo referendum only now they will really get rid of the Pinochet dictatorship legacy because yes in when Chile did return to democracy but it was based on a constitution imposed by Pinochet himself you know not not too [unintelligible] protecting the rich and so on all the stuff so there are some interesting things going on here and there but what do you think is in store for the Labour Party in the UK it's simply that this Tony Blair more traditional orientation took over again and the reason I am not glad about it it's not only because I am more radical leftist but because as I wrote in another text what worries me a lot recently in the United States in Europe is this gap between representational system of elections and the major and how should I call it the gap feeling the everyday life experience of many ordinary people and there is a certain level of discontent which simply cannot be translated transposed properly into electoral results for example I often use this example some even more years ago no it was maybe a little bit later in the last years of Tony Blair rule in United States I was in England just a week before elections there was some big TV show you know asking people big opinion poll who is the most hated person in the United Kingdom Tony Blair won by far a week later he won the elections again so it's very paradoxical how and in this discontent obviously there was some kind of discontent with the people it wasn't possible to politicize it properly it's the same wait a minute it's the same with France you remember when did it begin a year ago something like that the yellow vests protests right yeah when they tried to politicize themselves they accepted dialogue with Macron it was all watered down it was protest which it wasn't possible to politicize it the same happened I know I'm friends with many of them with Podemos you remember two years ago and so on in Spain once they decided to enter the state politics they are now part of the government they became just another not even very radical like social democratic whatever you call it party so this gap worries me worries me very much and I think Trump also functions in this way that's why against Trump I don't think it's enough to say he is threatening our democracy let's return to our no that traditional liberal democracy no longer properly well I totally agree I'd like to I'd like to talk a little bit about Belarus actually because in Pandemic in the chapter Father or Worse you sort of compare the protests in Belarus to the yellow vests and discuss about the way that the real trouble begins once you overthrow your authoritarian ruler your Batka like Lukashenko but then you have to reckon with all of these things you know many people I know hated me so much of that text as if I am pro-Lukashenko or whatever I'm not crazy he is a nice example of what some of my friends theorists already developed as the new grotesque or obscene master you know Trump is also a master in this you know the old masters masters in the sense of political public figure leader boss they played this rule of untouchable dignity you know this dignity was never they were aspirational sorry they were aspirational yeah we are we are losing these terms because you know Trump likes to use it you know when Trump said was quoted saying that the covid will be over in April he said this in March no yeah and when somebody told him you were wrong he said no I just meant it meant it in an aspirational way you know yeah yeah no no no but what I want to say is that nonetheless I mean he should be dealt with of course I absolutely agree Lukashenko again he is a kind of grotesque obscene
unknown
figure and in did you get from those or books guys the proofs or what on
figure and in did you get from those or books guys the proofs or what on
Slavoj Žižek
of Pandemic yeah of course we read the book we did our research because remember in the in the appendix to it I went into it a little bit this new figure of obscene master in contrast to the noble ironically I mean this of course epoch of Stalinism where the leader was totally untouchable you know nothing should be publicly said that would diminish undermine the figure of the leader now with Trump and so on we have something very strange we have a leader who already treats behaves towards himself in an obscene way if I may put it like this you know that's why don't you agree that's the problem with all those John Stewart blah blah who or Alec Baldwin who make fun of Trump it doesn't quite work because Trump is in himself funnier he's already yeah exactly yeah and you know with whom I agree did you invite her many people don't like her as she's we I think nonetheless that how do you pronounce it Angela Nagle in her book oh yeah we've we've had her on the show before yeah yeah yeah she detected very nicely this tendency and I remember it of how when I was young you know the right tried to be dignified we the leftists were doing all the ugly gestures FU and so on now sorry the right is doing it it's much more efficiently and I think sorry yeah did I disappear yeah let me ask you this um my one minor like I guess now you really want to kill me and you are mad when you begin as a gentle woman in this my minor reproach or what okay my one well my my one minor um thing that I would say is um I don't know why you describe this as a new thing because I think there's a model
of Pandemic yeah of course we read the book we did our research because remember in the in the appendix to it I went into it a little bit this new figure of obscene master in contrast to the noble ironically I mean this of course epoch of Stalinism where the leader was totally untouchable you know nothing should be publicly said that would diminish undermine the figure of the leader now with Trump and so on we have something very strange we have a leader who already treats behaves towards himself in an obscene way if I may put it like this you know that's why don't you agree that's the problem with all those John Stewart blah blah who or Alec Baldwin who make fun of Trump it doesn't quite work because Trump is in himself funnier he's already yeah exactly yeah and you know with whom I agree did you invite her many people don't like her as she's we I think nonetheless that how do you pronounce it Angela Nagle in her book oh yeah we've we've had her on the show before yeah yeah yeah she detected very nicely this tendency and I remember it of how when I was young you know the right tried to be dignified we the leftists were doing all the ugly gestures FU and so on now sorry the right is doing it it's much more efficiently and I think sorry yeah did I disappear yeah let me ask you this um my one minor like I guess now you really want to kill me and you are mad when you begin as a gentle woman in this my minor reproach or what okay my one well my my one minor um thing that I would say is um I don't know why you describe this as a new thing because I think there's a model
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of it in the Soviet
of it in the Soviet
Slavoj Žižek
Union with like Khrushchev and Yeltsin right the obscene leader yeah but nonetheless Khrushchev he began with it I know and he began already in Stalin's era the idea is that he survived and became the leader precisely because he always played in Stalin's I read his biographies inner circle this role of you know drunk fat clown and so on so nobody took him quite quite seriously but on the other hand what I find so fascinating in Soviet Union but okay you are too young I remember that era you know that now not only many leftists had almost a good memory of Khrushchev not because of all relative relaxation but do you know like I will do a very simple analysis Khrushchev period at least in the late 50s was the last period of the Soviet Union when Khrushchev and people around him the ruling narrow circle how should I put it it may sound
Union with like Khrushchev and Yeltsin right the obscene leader yeah but nonetheless Khrushchev he began with it I know and he began already in Stalin's era the idea is that he survived and became the leader precisely because he always played in Stalin's I read his biographies inner circle this role of you know drunk fat clown and so on so nobody took him quite quite seriously but on the other hand what I find so fascinating in Soviet Union but okay you are too young I remember that era you know that now not only many leftists had almost a good memory of Khrushchev not because of all relative relaxation but do you know like I will do a very simple analysis Khrushchev period at least in the late 50s was the last period of the Soviet Union when Khrushchev and people around him the ruling narrow circle how should I put it it may sound
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very naive still believed in communism you know they still seriously thought they will maybe do it with Brezhnev the game is over it's absolutely clear that from the very beginning he was cynical and so on and so on you know but you should tell me if you have still connections in Belarus you know but I'm again not defending him he became an embarrassment Lukashenko but isn't it true that economically
very naive still believed in communism you know they still seriously thought they will maybe do it with Brezhnev the game is over it's absolutely clear that from the very beginning he was cynical and so on and so on you know but you should tell me if you have still connections in Belarus you know but I'm again not defending him he became an embarrassment Lukashenko but isn't it true that economically
Slavoj Žižek
socially till two three years ago till the oil crisis and so on he wasn't doing it so bad okay he was no he enjoyed popular support for a very long time yeah but I know he was I know a dictator and so on but I think that that formula no longer works I meant just an [unintelligible] don't you agree the benevolent warning what do
socially till two three years ago till the oil crisis and so on he wasn't doing it so bad okay he was no he enjoyed popular support for a very long time yeah but I know he was I know a dictator and so on but I think that that formula no longer works I meant just an [unintelligible] don't you agree the benevolent warning what do
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people expect look at
people expect look at
Slavoj Žižek
Ukraine now where how do you call it exactly well that's why it's sad that's what's horrifying about it is that uh it's very difficult to imagine a way forward that yes Lukashenko should be overthrown but what do we do after that is yeah my point was here another one that's why I wouldn't fully compare them with yellow vests uh on the one hand and I am ready to be corrected here if I'm factually wrong yes on the one hand some of their representatives sounded to me when I saw the interviews of the opposition more like what Habermas called nachholende Revolution a catch-up revolution we just want to become real democracy like the liberal West but are they aware that that democracy itself is in a crisis today well that's that's another question that I have for you um I was you know we talked a little bit about the Belarus situation and we talked about the situation in Karabakh as well and one of the things that strikes me about these conflicts is that the people yeah I'm sorry if I will disagree with you but probably maybe we will agree I will show my cards in advance there I am for very specific private not private reason of my contacts more on the side of Armenia because I know I know my some of friends Slovenia is as your beloved president not Lukashenko but Trump would have put it Slovenia is a shithole of a country a small country where and this is where I have fond memories incidentally even from communist times the last decade you know two million people blah blah nomenclatura didn't live secluded life you walk on
Ukraine now where how do you call it exactly well that's why it's sad that's what's horrifying about it is that uh it's very difficult to imagine a way forward that yes Lukashenko should be overthrown but what do we do after that is yeah my point was here another one that's why I wouldn't fully compare them with yellow vests uh on the one hand and I am ready to be corrected here if I'm factually wrong yes on the one hand some of their representatives sounded to me when I saw the interviews of the opposition more like what Habermas called nachholende Revolution a catch-up revolution we just want to become real democracy like the liberal West but are they aware that that democracy itself is in a crisis today well that's that's another question that I have for you um I was you know we talked a little bit about the Belarus situation and we talked about the situation in Karabakh as well and one of the things that strikes me about these conflicts is that the people yeah I'm sorry if I will disagree with you but probably maybe we will agree I will show my cards in advance there I am for very specific private not private reason of my contacts more on the side of Armenia because I know I know my some of friends Slovenia is as your beloved president not Lukashenko but Trump would have put it Slovenia is a shithole of a country a small country where and this is where I have fond memories incidentally even from communist times the last decade you know two million people blah blah nomenclatura didn't live secluded life you walk on
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the street you
the street you
Slavoj Žižek
could have encountered the general secretary of the Communist party walking alone without a guard on the street and so on so my point is everybody knew everybody else and uh in the mid 90s or a little bit later a friend of mine was a minister of science and education and as part of the Slovene delegation visited Azerbaijan where they had I mean this as a brutal irony
could have encountered the general secretary of the Communist party walking alone without a guard on the street and so on so my point is everybody knew everybody else and uh in the mid 90s or a little bit later a friend of mine was a minister of science and education and as part of the Slovene delegation visited Azerbaijan where they had I mean this as a brutal irony
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they had the best government
they had the best government
Slavoj Žižek
imaginable didn't they perfect this formula the ex-KGB boss became a national was it Aliyev or who is there Aliyev yeah yeah yeah it's a nightmare no so and people also told me that you have this downtown wealthy with all the Western stores extreme social differences plastic surgery
imaginable didn't they perfect this formula the ex-KGB boss became a national was it Aliyev or who is there Aliyev yeah yeah yeah it's a nightmare no so and people also told me that you have this downtown wealthy with all the Western stores extreme social differences plastic surgery
unknown
yeah Rolls-Royce yes sure yeah yeah so I don't
yeah Rolls-Royce yes sure yeah yeah so I don't
Slavoj Žižek
know the details but I am are you also a little bit definitely more sympathetic towards
know the details but I am are you also a little bit definitely more sympathetic towards
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Armenia well my family is
Armenia well my family is
Slavoj Žižek
from Karabakh so I have to be she's from Belarus I'm from Karabakh we're like from doomed territories ah you
from Karabakh so I have to be she's from Belarus I'm from Karabakh we're like from doomed territories ah you
unknown
are precisely from there from Karabakh yeah on my on my dad's side yeah yeah and as Armenian yeah yeah so so I can't be but you know these are yeah but these are always problems for example not that I'm for Putin but it's true that how do you pronounce it Crimea Crimea in English that
are precisely from there from Karabakh yeah on my on my dad's side yeah yeah and as Armenian yeah yeah so so I can't be but you know these are yeah but these are always problems for example not that I'm for Putin but it's true that how do you pronounce it Crimea Crimea in English that
Slavoj Žižek
stupid names for the nations Crimea yeah but it's true that Khrushchev when he gave it when only in the mid 50s or when did Khrushchev give Crimea peninsula to Ukraine no yeah it's fairly recent yeah it was a slightly meaningless stupid decision like why mhm yeah I mean but I think is there any justification isn't it true that Catherine the Great and Russians under quotation marks civilized Crimea took it it was never properly Ukrainian no or was it or am I or am I wrong yes that's correct yeah yeah that's I mean that's how Russians view it but I guess my my question to you is that the people in in places like Belarus and Armenia tend and Azerbaijan for that matter are very unironic people they're not irony poisoned so they take these kind of national conflicts very seriously this is a loss for me yeah yeah and I'm wondering like if there's a place even for this kind of worldview in our present kind of global networked world well until now that was good about my own country till now now it's also turning crazy Slovenia you know all my friends after they visited United States they couldn't understand it they consider this a kind of psychic madness that you know on some American homes especially in the province outside big cities you find a national flag on a private house you know yeah for us we are still faithful to the socialist legacy which means no in the ironic sense which means that national flag is what you put on during holidays because you are ordered by the state to do it it's considered
stupid names for the nations Crimea yeah but it's true that Khrushchev when he gave it when only in the mid 50s or when did Khrushchev give Crimea peninsula to Ukraine no yeah it's fairly recent yeah it was a slightly meaningless stupid decision like why mhm yeah I mean but I think is there any justification isn't it true that Catherine the Great and Russians under quotation marks civilized Crimea took it it was never properly Ukrainian no or was it or am I or am I wrong yes that's correct yeah yeah that's I mean that's how Russians view it but I guess my my question to you is that the people in in places like Belarus and Armenia tend and Azerbaijan for that matter are very unironic people they're not irony poisoned so they take these kind of national conflicts very seriously this is a loss for me yeah yeah and I'm wondering like if there's a place even for this kind of worldview in our present kind of global networked world well until now that was good about my own country till now now it's also turning crazy Slovenia you know all my friends after they visited United States they couldn't understand it they consider this a kind of psychic madness that you know on some American homes especially in the province outside big cities you find a national flag on a private house you know yeah for us we are still faithful to the socialist legacy which means no in the ironic sense which means that national flag is what you put on during holidays because you are ordered by the state to do it it's considered
unknown
madness to put the national flag on just like
madness to put the national flag on just like
Slavoj Žižek
that you know now unfortunately they are trying to but you know what I suspect of this fanatic I think attitude as you said no sense of irony and so on it's not just that I distrust it because it's too fanatic I always had this psychologically grounded I think well-grounded suspicion that fanatics are not the ones who really believe in this stance and that's why they
that you know now unfortunately they are trying to but you know what I suspect of this fanatic I think attitude as you said no sense of irony and so on it's not just that I distrust it because it's too fanatic I always had this psychologically grounded I think well-grounded suspicion that fanatics are not the ones who really believe in this stance and that's why they
unknown
have to be so desperately fanatic now apropos I don't know which I think even apropos Israel I I found is he one of those poets I don't know Carlo Ginzburg I quoted him somewhere who wrote that you only belong to a country this is
have to be so desperately fanatic now apropos I don't know which I think even apropos Israel I I found is he one of those poets I don't know Carlo Ginzburg I quoted him somewhere who wrote that you only belong to a country this is
Slavoj Žižek
the ultimate true love for a country when you are ready when your country does something wrong to be ashamed of your own country no and I'm asking this fanatic people are you ready when your country is wrong to be ashamed of your own country and that's why the most beautiful story I think I quote it even maybe even in Pandemic that I know is that you know that way back years or when in Israel and United States a group of Holocaust survivors who were old enough to be still alive and their sons
the ultimate true love for a country when you are ready when your country does something wrong to be ashamed of your own country no and I'm asking this fanatic people are you ready when your country is wrong to be ashamed of your own country and that's why the most beautiful story I think I quote it even maybe even in Pandemic that I know is that you know that way back years or when in Israel and United States a group of Holocaust survivors who were old enough to be still alive and their sons
unknown
daughters published a text claiming now we Holocaust
daughters published a text claiming now we Holocaust
Slavoj Žižek
survivors are ashamed of what Israel is doing to Palestinians I remember that yeah that is for me true love of your
survivors are ashamed of what Israel is doing to Palestinians I remember that yeah that is for me true love of your
unknown
country and so if you are cannot be ironic towards your country or make bad jokes about it you don't really love your country and that's why maybe this will amuse you that's why I am sometimes politically incorrect and so on and you
country and so if you are cannot be ironic towards your country or make bad jokes about it you don't really love your country and that's why maybe this will amuse you that's why I am sometimes politically incorrect and so on and you
Slavoj Žižek
know ah I must tell you this I don't know if you know it the most beautiful thing that happened to me is my younger son when he was going to elementary school more than years ago had a black boy as his best friend you know and I was all the time you can imagine making I don't dare to repeat them here you will get in trouble bad tastes mockingly racist remarks but this was our game among the two of us that black boy we were a good so once thanks to Melania once that black friend of my son rang the bell to visit my son and he entered I said okay because I was in a very bad depressed mood I say okay go in nice to see you hi and then he went in to play with my son my son knocked on my door like that Marvin Marvin the name of this black friend said Marvin is worried why didn't you insult him what's wrong with you do you hate him now or what yeah yes he got it you know without there is no love without this irony and my stay proudly I only had a couple of them but in all my love relationships you know we establish a kind of codified form of this kind of mutual loving humiliation which has a very beautiful logic behind it the message is not I really mean it but the message is our love is so strong that we can even talk like that and know that it will not get hurt you know like right right like if wife asked
know ah I must tell you this I don't know if you know it the most beautiful thing that happened to me is my younger son when he was going to elementary school more than years ago had a black boy as his best friend you know and I was all the time you can imagine making I don't dare to repeat them here you will get in trouble bad tastes mockingly racist remarks but this was our game among the two of us that black boy we were a good so once thanks to Melania once that black friend of my son rang the bell to visit my son and he entered I said okay because I was in a very bad depressed mood I say okay go in nice to see you hi and then he went in to play with my son my son knocked on my door like that Marvin Marvin the name of this black friend said Marvin is worried why didn't you insult him what's wrong with you do you hate him now or what yeah yes he got it you know without there is no love without this irony and my stay proudly I only had a couple of them but in all my love relationships you know we establish a kind of codified form of this kind of mutual loving humiliation which has a very beautiful logic behind it the message is not I really mean it but the message is our love is so strong that we can even talk like that and know that it will not get hurt you know like right right like if wife asked
unknown
me what should I do and my standard answer was of course jump into the toilet bowl
me what should I do and my standard answer was of course jump into the toilet bowl
Slavoj Žižek
and pull flush the water after you or whatever I mean there are much worse things and so on but you see this is again
and pull flush the water after you or whatever I mean there are much worse things and so on but you see this is again
unknown
that's my paradox this is what worries me about this people sensitive to their
that's my paradox this is what worries me about this people sensitive to their
Slavoj Žižek
national identity and so on and so on but true
national identity and so on and so on but true
unknown
identity by definition incorporates irony
identity by definition incorporates irony
Slavoj Žižek
mocking making fun of yourself and so on and so on you know and this is for me would you agree but I don't know you are too young to remember it as I always repeat
mocking making fun of yourself and so on and so on you know and this is for me would you agree but I don't know you are too young to remember it as I always repeat
unknown
maybe the biggest greatest cultural legacy of
maybe the biggest greatest cultural legacy of
Slavoj Žižek
Stalinist times are the best political jokes that I remembered you know now they mostly disappeared I mean you cannot
Stalinist times are the best political jokes that I remembered you know now they mostly disappeared I mean you cannot
unknown
compare the level they simply disappeared
compare the level they simply disappeared
Slavoj Žižek
we still hear the political jokes they're on a much lower level and so on well yeah
we still hear the political jokes they're on a much lower level and so on well yeah
unknown
it's like you said it's
it's like you said it's
Slavoj Žižek
because Trump himself in America at least is so funny he's impossible to make fun of he's his own best parody yeah yeah exactly yeah yeah
because Trump himself in America at least is so funny he's impossible to make fun of he's his own best parody yeah yeah exactly yeah yeah
unknown
but that's why now probably you will not agree with this but that's why I it's a very risky move I know I think that and Bernie Sanders I don't know him directly but I know people who know him yeah Bernie he knows this and he did something very intelligent he told
but that's why now probably you will not agree with this but that's why I it's a very risky move I know I think that and Bernie Sanders I don't know him directly but I know people who know him yeah Bernie he knows this and he did something very intelligent he told
Slavoj Žižek
a friend of mine who told me that his idea was what
a friend of mine who told me that his idea was what
unknown
about this old notion which was put in circulation I think by Richard Nixon conservative moral majority
about this old notion which was put in circulation I think by Richard Nixon conservative moral majority
Slavoj Žižek
ordinary decent people we should say we Bernie Sanders really is with them talks with them my old idea is that if there is a postmodernist totally ironic brutal tasteless mocking Trump is a postmodern president in this yeah well I wouldn't disagree with that Bernie was an old-fashioned wonderful moralist you know yeah that's also why with regard to feminism I'm radically pro-feminism really I mean it but not in the politically correct way I think and all the women I have contact with also theorists and so on like they have the same reaction with me as that guy friend of my son Marvin you know if I'm not a little bit vulgar they start to worry am I mad did they do wrong and so on you know the silent majority they do wrong and so on you know if you can't be a little bit misogynistic but don't you agree at that with this that maybe you function in a different way maybe in other cultures it functions in a different way but in my circles a small exchange of obscenities is the the only way to really break the ice and to let it be known now we are real friends you know well it's flattering it's like a sorry you know how they say imitation is the best form of flattery it's not exactly imitation it's a little bit of mockery because it implies flattery right it's flattery absolute yeah yeah but my idea is here of course I agree with you a step further that only through mockery can you really demonstrate that you belong to what you are mocking making fun of you know I don't trust fanatics not in the sense they are too fanatic but that deep in them they really don't believe in what they preach like I will give an example where which you will find difficult uh you know that when I was in Ramallah and some other parts of Palestine okay this is the most bourgeois city life part I discovered that they have a wonderful sense of humor making fun of Christians of Islam itself and so on and so on probably if I were to repeat in the West what my Palestinian friends were telling me my if I were to be in France maybe my throat would be cut now or whatever you know so even Islam even Islam is not as fanatic the majority not as humorless as they might seem they are quite they're for example I quote them in I forgot which of my book I think Puppet and the Dwarf the best Christian jokes making fun of Christianity I heard them from Palestinian Christians they are still among Palestinians who are who are Christians and so on you know so for me and that's for me you know what's the problem for me with politically correct stance the problem is that double first it tries to regulate what cannot really be regulated because it's a it's a it's a domain of ambiguity irony and so on and and what they don't get it some of them is that you can appear to follow you can formally follow all the politically correct rules but really you can still remain your message between the lines will remain aggressive racist and so on and on the other hand explain it blatantly you can make statements which may appear to be aggressive but everybody will immediately see that it's an act of friendship for example and this is not yet I think in my pandemic book I've written now didn't you have now on the east coast there where you are a big scandal with that how do you pronounce the name of that old painter Guston Guston or whatever oh yeah Philip Guston Philip Guston you know what shocked me there the argumentation that some people although he definitely was an anti-Ku Klux Klan definitely was against and everybody knew that he was against but nonetheless people claim some people may not be ready to understand this message properly and so on this is the symbols of liberal political correctness at its worst yes this fear that and you know that Slovene some point they were more famous than now relatively famous hard military not even punk rock like Laibach in Slovenia or Rammstein in Germany you know yeah some of my liberal friends express this worry we know it's meant ironically blah blah but what if some people will take their imitation of Nazi ritual seriously well who are these people Rammstein are aware one of their hits in Germany is links links links left everybody know they are not only social democrats they are for Die Linke for the left party so this is what is false about you know this fear which conceals a deep a deep arrogance and patronizing attitude you presuppose some naive ordinary guy who should maybe he will get it wrong he should be so let's take that Guston or whatever do they really claim that there are some people who will mistake this and what he portrays is not his paintings I looked at them they are not caricatures of black people suffering they are ridiculing Ku Klux Klan members and so on no I don't and I don't think anyone believes that I think it's extremely cynical and I don't think anyone really does believe that but they are cynical they are cynical yes exactly the politically correct are cynical here and now you got the the
ordinary decent people we should say we Bernie Sanders really is with them talks with them my old idea is that if there is a postmodernist totally ironic brutal tasteless mocking Trump is a postmodern president in this yeah well I wouldn't disagree with that Bernie was an old-fashioned wonderful moralist you know yeah that's also why with regard to feminism I'm radically pro-feminism really I mean it but not in the politically correct way I think and all the women I have contact with also theorists and so on like they have the same reaction with me as that guy friend of my son Marvin you know if I'm not a little bit vulgar they start to worry am I mad did they do wrong and so on you know the silent majority they do wrong and so on you know if you can't be a little bit misogynistic but don't you agree at that with this that maybe you function in a different way maybe in other cultures it functions in a different way but in my circles a small exchange of obscenities is the the only way to really break the ice and to let it be known now we are real friends you know well it's flattering it's like a sorry you know how they say imitation is the best form of flattery it's not exactly imitation it's a little bit of mockery because it implies flattery right it's flattery absolute yeah yeah but my idea is here of course I agree with you a step further that only through mockery can you really demonstrate that you belong to what you are mocking making fun of you know I don't trust fanatics not in the sense they are too fanatic but that deep in them they really don't believe in what they preach like I will give an example where which you will find difficult uh you know that when I was in Ramallah and some other parts of Palestine okay this is the most bourgeois city life part I discovered that they have a wonderful sense of humor making fun of Christians of Islam itself and so on and so on probably if I were to repeat in the West what my Palestinian friends were telling me my if I were to be in France maybe my throat would be cut now or whatever you know so even Islam even Islam is not as fanatic the majority not as humorless as they might seem they are quite they're for example I quote them in I forgot which of my book I think Puppet and the Dwarf the best Christian jokes making fun of Christianity I heard them from Palestinian Christians they are still among Palestinians who are who are Christians and so on you know so for me and that's for me you know what's the problem for me with politically correct stance the problem is that double first it tries to regulate what cannot really be regulated because it's a it's a it's a domain of ambiguity irony and so on and and what they don't get it some of them is that you can appear to follow you can formally follow all the politically correct rules but really you can still remain your message between the lines will remain aggressive racist and so on and on the other hand explain it blatantly you can make statements which may appear to be aggressive but everybody will immediately see that it's an act of friendship for example and this is not yet I think in my pandemic book I've written now didn't you have now on the east coast there where you are a big scandal with that how do you pronounce the name of that old painter Guston Guston or whatever oh yeah Philip Guston Philip Guston you know what shocked me there the argumentation that some people although he definitely was an anti-Ku Klux Klan definitely was against and everybody knew that he was against but nonetheless people claim some people may not be ready to understand this message properly and so on this is the symbols of liberal political correctness at its worst yes this fear that and you know that Slovene some point they were more famous than now relatively famous hard military not even punk rock like Laibach in Slovenia or Rammstein in Germany you know yeah some of my liberal friends express this worry we know it's meant ironically blah blah but what if some people will take their imitation of Nazi ritual seriously well who are these people Rammstein are aware one of their hits in Germany is links links links left everybody know they are not only social democrats they are for Die Linke for the left party so this is what is false about you know this fear which conceals a deep a deep arrogance and patronizing attitude you presuppose some naive ordinary guy who should maybe he will get it wrong he should be so let's take that Guston or whatever do they really claim that there are some people who will mistake this and what he portrays is not his paintings I looked at them they are not caricatures of black people suffering they are ridiculing Ku Klux Klan members and so on no I don't and I don't think anyone believes that I think it's extremely cynical and I don't think anyone really does believe that but they are cynical they are cynical yes exactly the politically correct are cynical here and now you got the the
unknown
crucial thing maybe now I'm going maybe the two of you are not so totally stupid because you say correct things
crucial thing maybe now I'm going maybe the two of you are not so totally stupid because you say correct things
Slavoj Žižek
sorry I always dig my own grave because no now you said something wonderful it's not just that they those who oppose this are are too severe and so on no I think there is something deeply cynical as you said in this politically correct radicalism the problem is this not that they are too fanatic because you know what shocked me many times when I spoke with them is but you also must have experienced it because you maybe have the same problem of me you are not purely American you are white but okay you are not purely American but you are still white and so on not black Asian so I noticed how because you are still considered not the real other to whom we should behave in a totally respectful way what they they they politically correct white minority they are allowed to treat us in a way that if they were to treat like this blacks or Asians it would be immediately considered racist you know like how many times years ago uh I heard when I told a simple joke maybe in your primitive Balkan you can talk like this but not here like you know all of a sudden primitive Balkan and so on and so on it's it's so again whenever I hear a politically correct stance I ask look at their own unwritten hidden rules you know yes the first thing you discover is that well a friend of mine told me a wonderful story I don't know he was at Syracuse which university Syracuse um right it's in upstate New York yeah yeah yeah okay Ithaca Cornell I think doesn't matter uh he was there and he was part of a committee deciding on a job and then one of the rules that a wealthy black guy was basically in advance chosen to get that post but there was also a very poor immigrant lady from Korea poor and she also applied for this job and my friend said in that committee wait a minute okay we have a black guy but we have on the other side also a foreigner Korean and poor woman a woman and so on
sorry I always dig my own grave because no now you said something wonderful it's not just that they those who oppose this are are too severe and so on no I think there is something deeply cynical as you said in this politically correct radicalism the problem is this not that they are too fanatic because you know what shocked me many times when I spoke with them is but you also must have experienced it because you maybe have the same problem of me you are not purely American you are white but okay you are not purely American but you are still white and so on not black Asian so I noticed how because you are still considered not the real other to whom we should behave in a totally respectful way what they they they politically correct white minority they are allowed to treat us in a way that if they were to treat like this blacks or Asians it would be immediately considered racist you know like how many times years ago uh I heard when I told a simple joke maybe in your primitive Balkan you can talk like this but not here like you know all of a sudden primitive Balkan and so on and so on it's it's so again whenever I hear a politically correct stance I ask look at their own unwritten hidden rules you know yes the first thing you discover is that well a friend of mine told me a wonderful story I don't know he was at Syracuse which university Syracuse um right it's in upstate New York yeah yeah yeah okay Ithaca Cornell I think doesn't matter uh he was there and he was part of a committee deciding on a job and then one of the rules that a wealthy black guy was basically in advance chosen to get that post but there was also a very poor immigrant lady from Korea poor and she also applied for this job and my friend said in that committee wait a minute okay we have a black guy but we have on the other side also a foreigner Korean and poor woman a woman and so on
unknown
and you know what he was told sorry she is not the right minority well at least they're honest sorry yeah you're at
and you know what he was told sorry she is not the right minority well at least they're honest sorry yeah you're at
Slavoj Žižek
least you're honest about it this guy was at least honest because usually you are not allowed to that's what I've written a lot about I love rules which hold absolutely but are not allowed the rules themselves which decide what is prohibited are prohibited you are not allowed to proclaim them publicly and this is for me you must know this story I use it all the time this is what I find so crazy about Stalinism it was prohibited to criticize Stalin but it was even more prohibited to say publicly in our country you are not allowed to criticize Stalin you know you cannot say this sorry just have absolutely to to to obey it you know well incidentally oh sorry please go on no no go ahead in Pandemic you made a kind of like a you talk about the how Trump broke the rules when he publicly commented on the fact that first lady Melania was not ever flatulent in front of him like she never yeah not only this you know what I found I think I have a paragraph in the book Trump is always reproached for lying you know all these texts immediately how many lies did he how many lies sorry did he say in his last interview but what really shocked me is how and here I think Trump is even more terrifying how he tells the truth when it's too it should have been too obscene to tell it for example do you remember when he began to underfund uh underfund uh post no and the interpretation was he wants to get less post votes because more Democrat so that less Democrats would vote and they ask him and he said openly because I want less Democrats to vote you know yeah yeah standard of course yeah it's like saying that she's the wrong kind of minority yeah yeah yeah Trump is here uh what do you think frankly okay we are a couple of days to the election I think he still has a chance to win if you ask me yeah well we weren't I was going to avoid talking about the election since let's avoid it let's avoid it okay okay okay no no no no no no but if you have some yeah you can talk about it now that you bring no I don't have any no because I would have learned I should learn from you here you know I don't have any I just don't get it why you know as if is there some Trumpian secret circle in Democratic party was it their decision to get somebody like Biden as a candidate you know yeah yeah I mean because they want Trump to win yeah but but but how is it now with you know okay let me tell you another totalitarian thing which is not yet in my book okay you know when I had in my pandemic already this idea covid a new chance for communism blah blah people laughed are you totally crazy don't you see the big capital Jeff Bezos blah blah got even richer and so on I agree but my answer was always friends wait the pandemic is not yet over and point two even if we somehow control cope with the pandemic who knows what will follow for example I follow all these things which are horrible what is happening now in the Arctic Sea the north of Siberia uh-huh you know you you're talking about the permafrost the permafrost melting you know the temperature this sum was over degrees Celsius over Fahrenheit totally unnatural then the metal gases are now coming I mean I and my idea is what I don't mean communism in the sense of a new communist party but I mean something much more desperate in Europe we are clearly approaching it least I follow here maybe you read my last text not in the book my friend although I have differences of opinion Alain Badiou who proposed this four features of a radical communist regime no but we are approaching them today one is voluntarism screw objective economic laws just impose your will aren't we forced to do it today with economy we simply
least you're honest about it this guy was at least honest because usually you are not allowed to that's what I've written a lot about I love rules which hold absolutely but are not allowed the rules themselves which decide what is prohibited are prohibited you are not allowed to proclaim them publicly and this is for me you must know this story I use it all the time this is what I find so crazy about Stalinism it was prohibited to criticize Stalin but it was even more prohibited to say publicly in our country you are not allowed to criticize Stalin you know you cannot say this sorry just have absolutely to to to obey it you know well incidentally oh sorry please go on no no go ahead in Pandemic you made a kind of like a you talk about the how Trump broke the rules when he publicly commented on the fact that first lady Melania was not ever flatulent in front of him like she never yeah not only this you know what I found I think I have a paragraph in the book Trump is always reproached for lying you know all these texts immediately how many lies did he how many lies sorry did he say in his last interview but what really shocked me is how and here I think Trump is even more terrifying how he tells the truth when it's too it should have been too obscene to tell it for example do you remember when he began to underfund uh underfund uh post no and the interpretation was he wants to get less post votes because more Democrat so that less Democrats would vote and they ask him and he said openly because I want less Democrats to vote you know yeah yeah standard of course yeah it's like saying that she's the wrong kind of minority yeah yeah yeah Trump is here uh what do you think frankly okay we are a couple of days to the election I think he still has a chance to win if you ask me yeah well we weren't I was going to avoid talking about the election since let's avoid it let's avoid it okay okay okay no no no no no no but if you have some yeah you can talk about it now that you bring no I don't have any no because I would have learned I should learn from you here you know I don't have any I just don't get it why you know as if is there some Trumpian secret circle in Democratic party was it their decision to get somebody like Biden as a candidate you know yeah yeah I mean because they want Trump to win yeah but but but how is it now with you know okay let me tell you another totalitarian thing which is not yet in my book okay you know when I had in my pandemic already this idea covid a new chance for communism blah blah people laughed are you totally crazy don't you see the big capital Jeff Bezos blah blah got even richer and so on I agree but my answer was always friends wait the pandemic is not yet over and point two even if we somehow control cope with the pandemic who knows what will follow for example I follow all these things which are horrible what is happening now in the Arctic Sea the north of Siberia uh-huh you know you you're talking about the permafrost the permafrost melting you know the temperature this sum was over degrees Celsius over Fahrenheit totally unnatural then the metal gases are now coming I mean I and my idea is what I don't mean communism in the sense of a new communist party but I mean something much more desperate in Europe we are clearly approaching it least I follow here maybe you read my last text not in the book my friend although I have differences of opinion Alain Badiou who proposed this four features of a radical communist regime no but we are approaching them today one is voluntarism screw objective economic laws just impose your will aren't we forced to do it today with economy we simply
unknown
with the lockdown need respirators and so on and you cannot define okay maybe
with the lockdown need respirators and so on and you cannot define okay maybe
Slavoj Žižek
with vaccine with okay we will get profits but basically no you have to break you have to act in a voluntarist way other otherwise people would have starved and so on second thing egalitarian justice of course we will cheat but somehow everybody accepts that the vaccine should be a test it should be available to everybody it's ethically a monstrosity to claim just that strata or part of the population should survive the third thing now things get more problematic terror yeah we need terror of course not in the fascist or Stalinist sense but in the thing of not only control but whistleblowers denouncing and so on and the last thing trust in the people yes you have to trust the people it's clear that this state apparatus cannot do everything so of course those in power are trying successfully to twist the pandemic in that direction but I still stick to my analysis that pandemic was a heavy blow even a death blow to capitalism and that here I follow my good friend Yanis Varoufakis that what is now happening is that you know when people tell me you are crazy no revolution the same system will go no but capitalism is already changing do you know what radical changes are happening now to capitalism not because of any radical revolutionary movement just as Varoufakis told me did you read about two months ago or when when it was announced how unemployment exploded economy the greatest recession after early 1930s and so on stock markets went up so we have financial manipulations follow their own paths which are now almost totally disconnected from uh from from profitability of actual capital and so on things are changing so radically a new form of capitalism is already emerging and that's my fear sorry please yeah no I mean but what that says to me when um financial markets are totally unglued from economic reality is that the vast majority of people are obsolete to um the global elites I mean I think like you touched on this I was actually really pleasantly surprised to see you touch on this but in the book you say um essentially how the antithesis of of Black Lives Matter is no lives matter mhm oh this is you know ironic ironic yes yeah yeah of course but but we have we have the same joke here on the podcast yeah yeah yeah no no no but I was a Hegelian there I like this idea of a triad you know all lives matter Black Lives Matter no black lives matter all lives matter and then no lives no lives matter but you know now I elaborated it because I will use it again in a different way you know in what sense it's a wonderful paradox can I go a little bit into not too heavy philosophy
with vaccine with okay we will get profits but basically no you have to break you have to act in a voluntarist way other otherwise people would have starved and so on second thing egalitarian justice of course we will cheat but somehow everybody accepts that the vaccine should be a test it should be available to everybody it's ethically a monstrosity to claim just that strata or part of the population should survive the third thing now things get more problematic terror yeah we need terror of course not in the fascist or Stalinist sense but in the thing of not only control but whistleblowers denouncing and so on and the last thing trust in the people yes you have to trust the people it's clear that this state apparatus cannot do everything so of course those in power are trying successfully to twist the pandemic in that direction but I still stick to my analysis that pandemic was a heavy blow even a death blow to capitalism and that here I follow my good friend Yanis Varoufakis that what is now happening is that you know when people tell me you are crazy no revolution the same system will go no but capitalism is already changing do you know what radical changes are happening now to capitalism not because of any radical revolutionary movement just as Varoufakis told me did you read about two months ago or when when it was announced how unemployment exploded economy the greatest recession after early 1930s and so on stock markets went up so we have financial manipulations follow their own paths which are now almost totally disconnected from uh from from profitability of actual capital and so on things are changing so radically a new form of capitalism is already emerging and that's my fear sorry please yeah no I mean but what that says to me when um financial markets are totally unglued from economic reality is that the vast majority of people are obsolete to um the global elites I mean I think like you touched on this I was actually really pleasantly surprised to see you touch on this but in the book you say um essentially how the antithesis of of Black Lives Matter is no lives matter mhm oh this is you know ironic ironic yes yeah yeah of course but but we have we have the same joke here on the podcast yeah yeah yeah no no no but I was a Hegelian there I like this idea of a triad you know all lives matter Black Lives Matter no black lives matter all lives matter and then no lives no lives matter but you know now I elaborated it because I will use it again in a different way you know in what sense it's a wonderful paradox can I go a little bit into not too heavy philosophy
unknown
of course
of course
Slavoj Žižek
the paradox this is the best way maybe to explain what Hegel meant by concrete universality how the universal statement all lives matter is really a particular one you know you pretend to be universal all lives matter but you really privilege white lives in this formula why and here I develop it very simply because in every historical situation there is one form of racism which is determining the predominant one and you shouldn't neutralize it like it's absurd to talk in of racism in Nazi Germany without focusing on Jews on anti-semitism because this is the form and in the same way
the paradox this is the best way maybe to explain what Hegel meant by concrete universality how the universal statement all lives matter is really a particular one you know you pretend to be universal all lives matter but you really privilege white lives in this formula why and here I develop it very simply because in every historical situation there is one form of racism which is determining the predominant one and you shouldn't neutralize it like it's absurd to talk in of racism in Nazi Germany without focusing on Jews on anti-semitism because this is the form and in the same way
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today
today
Slavoj Žižek
in Israel it's absurd to fight racism without mentioning Palestinians and in the same way in United States today it's
in Israel it's absurd to fight racism without mentioning Palestinians and in the same way in United States today it's
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absurd to fight racism without mentioning blacks so you see the mirror paradox yeah if you are just universal you are really particular but if you say Black Lives Matter
absurd to fight racism without mentioning blacks so you see the mirror paradox yeah if you are just universal you are really particular but if you say Black Lives Matter
Slavoj Žižek
not all lives matter you are really universal why because anti-black racism is really the model the structural matrix whatever you put it of racism and next thing why then Comrade Stalin has Twitter why no lives matter because I disagree here with Giorgio Agamben who said we are becoming just science control survival machines and so on no no no no no it's uh I think that those who fight most heroically against the pandemic today it's vulgar and horrible to dismiss them as just obsessed with survival sorry if you fight against covid paradoxically as it is quite many people I lost some of friends doctors here in Slovenia they are ready to risk their life for it my god no struggle against covid cannot be it's also a struggle for dignity it's also a struggle for justice it's not just this cheap survivalist biopolitics just numbers matter and so on and so on you know so it's a much more much more complex situation right it's about in
not all lives matter you are really universal why because anti-black racism is really the model the structural matrix whatever you put it of racism and next thing why then Comrade Stalin has Twitter why no lives matter because I disagree here with Giorgio Agamben who said we are becoming just science control survival machines and so on no no no no no it's uh I think that those who fight most heroically against the pandemic today it's vulgar and horrible to dismiss them as just obsessed with survival sorry if you fight against covid paradoxically as it is quite many people I lost some of friends doctors here in Slovenia they are ready to risk their life for it my god no struggle against covid cannot be it's also a struggle for dignity it's also a struggle for justice it's not just this cheap survivalist biopolitics just numbers matter and so on and so on you know so it's a much more much more complex situation right it's about in
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Pandemic sorry please go on in Pandemic yeah you talk about how covid ecological disaster and
Pandemic sorry please go on in Pandemic yeah you talk about how covid ecological disaster and
Slavoj Žižek
racism are all kind of connected and comprise part of the bigger existential new forms and that is crucial because I'm
racism are all kind of connected and comprise part of the bigger existential new forms and that is crucial because I'm
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not saying anything original if you say this but you must also
not saying anything original if you say this but you must also
Slavoj Žižek
know how the whole strategy okay no I put it like this did I think a couple of days ago Paul Krugman had a nice commentary in New York Times when he referred to Freud without knowing it you know that famous joke quoted by Freud that I use so many times the paradox of the broken kettle you know
know how the whole strategy okay no I put it like this did I think a couple of days ago Paul Krugman had a nice commentary in New York Times when he referred to Freud without knowing it you know that famous joke quoted by Freud that I use so many times the paradox of the broken kettle you know
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you borrow from a friend a
you borrow from a friend a
Slavoj Žižek
kettle you return it kettle like you return it to him broken and then your defense is a I never borrowed a kettle from you b when I returned it to you it was still full not broken and c it was broken already when you gave it to me and that's Trump's argumentation a covid is exaggerated it's not a serious problem b even if it's a serious problem we are doing the best we can and c you remember a couple of days ago what some White House representative said covid cannot be controlled it's just an epidemic and so on and so on yeah yeah you know like like it's important how they try to deal with it and what they try to prevent is precisely to see the link between pandemic
kettle you return it kettle like you return it to him broken and then your defense is a I never borrowed a kettle from you b when I returned it to you it was still full not broken and c it was broken already when you gave it to me and that's Trump's argumentation a covid is exaggerated it's not a serious problem b even if it's a serious problem we are doing the best we can and c you remember a couple of days ago what some White House representative said covid cannot be controlled it's just an epidemic and so on and so on yeah yeah you know like like it's important how they try to deal with it and what they try to prevent is precisely to see the link between pandemic
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and
and
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other how pandemic
other how pandemic
Slavoj Žižek
is linked with our global way of life with with ecological problems with other problems it's crucial to see this but I don't know how it is in the United States there also even in Europe the typical conservative reaction is yes covid is serious that's why to focusing on it and forget a little bit about coal about ecology and so on and so on you know they use it very manipu or let's forget about about I don't know racism about everything else and so on and so on and this is the big struggle today to find to make people but it cannot be done just by saying this in practice people should experience the link the link like again as the one with whom I don't agree often Bruno Latour the French philosopher how he said covid is just a dress rehearsal for global warming and other ecological catastrophes coming you know uh yeah I have a a question for you on that note because in Pandemic and actually in Pandemic you make a point that's very well taken that we need a kind of global disaster communism global coordination that exists outside of the coordinates of the market the values of the market yeah yeah yeah and I was thinking about um you know a point that you made earlier uh about how you know we can imagine nearing the singularity but we can't imagine a marginal an increase in the marginal tax rate yeah yeah yeah and the example that you specifically in Pandemic is um let me look at it here Elon Musk's Neuralink project which talks about like wiring everyone's brains but does not in any way address the more obvious urgent material conditions you know but it I think first concerning Neuralink or in general the idea of a wired brain no yeah what I try to prove there it's not just that it's utopian because you know at a certain primitive level it's already done for example I read from a friend of mine he gave me the news in China no in many elementary schools there it's wonderful uh children had to wear a kind of a metal ring which at a very primitive level sees measures their brain activity so that the teacher is not even obliged to look at students on his if let's say you are dreaming you are not following what I'm saying it will immediately show as your diminished brain activity on my so things are moving but what interests me is another problem and there I think covid enters the secret dream not so much of Elon Musk he is the red pill covid denier more or less but of others Bill Gates and so on is this idea that we should prepare for new social life where there will not be a lot of social contact physical bodily contact we should get used to bodily distance and so the idea is literally the matrix one ideally you are in your own bubble like in the matrix but our minds are directly
is linked with our global way of life with with ecological problems with other problems it's crucial to see this but I don't know how it is in the United States there also even in Europe the typical conservative reaction is yes covid is serious that's why to focusing on it and forget a little bit about coal about ecology and so on and so on you know they use it very manipu or let's forget about about I don't know racism about everything else and so on and so on and this is the big struggle today to find to make people but it cannot be done just by saying this in practice people should experience the link the link like again as the one with whom I don't agree often Bruno Latour the French philosopher how he said covid is just a dress rehearsal for global warming and other ecological catastrophes coming you know uh yeah I have a a question for you on that note because in Pandemic and actually in Pandemic you make a point that's very well taken that we need a kind of global disaster communism global coordination that exists outside of the coordinates of the market the values of the market yeah yeah yeah and I was thinking about um you know a point that you made earlier uh about how you know we can imagine nearing the singularity but we can't imagine a marginal an increase in the marginal tax rate yeah yeah yeah and the example that you specifically in Pandemic is um let me look at it here Elon Musk's Neuralink project which talks about like wiring everyone's brains but does not in any way address the more obvious urgent material conditions you know but it I think first concerning Neuralink or in general the idea of a wired brain no yeah what I try to prove there it's not just that it's utopian because you know at a certain primitive level it's already done for example I read from a friend of mine he gave me the news in China no in many elementary schools there it's wonderful uh children had to wear a kind of a metal ring which at a very primitive level sees measures their brain activity so that the teacher is not even obliged to look at students on his if let's say you are dreaming you are not following what I'm saying it will immediately show as your diminished brain activity on my so things are moving but what interests me is another problem and there I think covid enters the secret dream not so much of Elon Musk he is the red pill covid denier more or less but of others Bill Gates and so on is this idea that we should prepare for new social life where there will not be a lot of social contact physical bodily contact we should get used to bodily distance and so the idea is literally the matrix one ideally you are in your own bubble like in the matrix but our minds are directly
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connected and I just tried in that book of mine Hegel in a Wired Brain to imagine what does this mean like what are we when Musk says which is stupidity but it's clear where he is aiming at years from now we will no longer need language language will be just an eccentric aesthetic curiosity no but what is he talking about doesn't he get it that not just poetry but
connected and I just tried in that book of mine Hegel in a Wired Brain to imagine what does this mean like what are we when Musk says which is stupidity but it's clear where he is aiming at years from now we will no longer need language language will be just an eccentric aesthetic curiosity no but what is he talking about doesn't he get it that not just poetry but
Slavoj Žižek
all our interface gain though all our creativity even explodes in this open moments when to to cut a long story short when you say something and you are not even aware what you said you are as it were surprised by your own statement by saying more than and in a little bit obscene way I go into that I even cannot imagine in this directly wired brains what would have happened on of sexuality you know like all the erotic interplay disappears our brains are connected we just look at each other and we immediately see would you do it or not okay but it's a very flat work but another thing sorry sorry the loss of seduction is what you write about but yeah I don't mean seduction in this male patriarchal way you know yeah no I understand yeah yeah yeah because people will again tell me then oh you have some masculine dreams and so on no no no what I mean is just this that I believe in the power of that everything that you say implies something unsaid I am well aware how racists and so on know how to use this you are not directly a racist but the implications are but there is another idea that came to me I developed it it's not yet in Pandemic namely how this really how it's simply not true those who complain that like Giorgio Agamben that with the pandemic we are losing social connectivity and so on no we are just maybe up to a point losing bodily proximity with others but socially we are as you said at the beginning we are more connected than ever through digital media and so on and so on that's the paradox at some level bodily we are alone but at the same time it's because our digital media are controlled phones and so on we are more socialized than ever so the paradox is that precisely today in the pandemic time where people spend enormous amount some time on the web and so on it's maybe more difficult than ever to be really alone it's difficult yeah I think we've become like more codependent or something but to that point I mean you talk like if you look at a lot of these kind of utopian proposals they're almost dystopian in the sense that they kind of um reveal an inability or unwillingness to do anything like on a mundane level you see this even on the left with the whole with all the calls to like abolish the police abolish the family uh abolish all these institutions and in Pandemic you quote Brecht as saying um it is the simple thing that's hard to do and why is the simple thing the hardest thing to do because that's the problem because uh no now I will sound like a boss incidentally Brecht says this you know in which poem in Praise of Communism [unintelligible] communism no there is a variation of how we are often not even
all our interface gain though all our creativity even explodes in this open moments when to to cut a long story short when you say something and you are not even aware what you said you are as it were surprised by your own statement by saying more than and in a little bit obscene way I go into that I even cannot imagine in this directly wired brains what would have happened on of sexuality you know like all the erotic interplay disappears our brains are connected we just look at each other and we immediately see would you do it or not okay but it's a very flat work but another thing sorry sorry the loss of seduction is what you write about but yeah I don't mean seduction in this male patriarchal way you know yeah no I understand yeah yeah yeah because people will again tell me then oh you have some masculine dreams and so on no no no what I mean is just this that I believe in the power of that everything that you say implies something unsaid I am well aware how racists and so on know how to use this you are not directly a racist but the implications are but there is another idea that came to me I developed it it's not yet in Pandemic namely how this really how it's simply not true those who complain that like Giorgio Agamben that with the pandemic we are losing social connectivity and so on no we are just maybe up to a point losing bodily proximity with others but socially we are as you said at the beginning we are more connected than ever through digital media and so on and so on that's the paradox at some level bodily we are alone but at the same time it's because our digital media are controlled phones and so on we are more socialized than ever so the paradox is that precisely today in the pandemic time where people spend enormous amount some time on the web and so on it's maybe more difficult than ever to be really alone it's difficult yeah I think we've become like more codependent or something but to that point I mean you talk like if you look at a lot of these kind of utopian proposals they're almost dystopian in the sense that they kind of um reveal an inability or unwillingness to do anything like on a mundane level you see this even on the left with the whole with all the calls to like abolish the police abolish the family uh abolish all these institutions and in Pandemic you quote Brecht as saying um it is the simple thing that's hard to do and why is the simple thing the hardest thing to do because that's the problem because uh no now I will sound like a boss incidentally Brecht says this you know in which poem in Praise of Communism [unintelligible] communism no there is a variation of how we are often not even
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aware for me capitalist ideology is not some ideology developed deployed in complicated theoretical statements it's our everyday life and we simply accept
aware for me capitalist ideology is not some ideology developed deployed in complicated theoretical statements it's our everyday life and we simply accept
Slavoj Žižek
it that certain things cannot be done and this is for me what fascinates me this everyday power of ideology ideology for me is not that's why is not again something that you put in textbooks that's why for me one of the definitions of ideology is that you claim the ideology is dead no the strongest period of ideology for me was 1990s the Fukuyama era where we thought we are out of ideology yeah the end of history yeah so and but that's why I see maybe I am too madly optimist as many commentators I quote them in Pandemic even in I think noted how nonetheless with the epidemic things which were unthinkable here a year ago are now accepted for example just imagine somebody proposing a year or two ago we need more socialized developed health care we need some form of basic income and so on and so on and so on now it's accepted of course those in power try to manipulate it in all possible ways but they are already reacting to something that it's becoming more and more evident so I think I wonder what will happen now in Europe when things are really you know going bad most of most of big European and small European states moving back to a quarantine and so on and so on everybody knows that it will be not to mention health problems new suffering it will be also a problem of economic problem it will be terrible but what interests me most and these are my favorite parts of the book there it is also a kind of existential almost I would say philosophical problem you know I don't think all people who protests masks are just crazy Trump nationalists it's something horrible that is happening our basic mode of everyday life communicating with others socializing and so on and so on is interrupted and it is a horrible thing we will really have to construct a new normality and this will bring all my psychiatrist friends are telling me tremendous social sorry mental health problems I don't know how it is in the States in Europe they are exploding and I'm talking about real numbers an Italian psychiatrist told me the high school children in northern Italy around of them half have serious mental health problems and so
it that certain things cannot be done and this is for me what fascinates me this everyday power of ideology ideology for me is not that's why is not again something that you put in textbooks that's why for me one of the definitions of ideology is that you claim the ideology is dead no the strongest period of ideology for me was 1990s the Fukuyama era where we thought we are out of ideology yeah the end of history yeah so and but that's why I see maybe I am too madly optimist as many commentators I quote them in Pandemic even in I think noted how nonetheless with the epidemic things which were unthinkable here a year ago are now accepted for example just imagine somebody proposing a year or two ago we need more socialized developed health care we need some form of basic income and so on and so on and so on now it's accepted of course those in power try to manipulate it in all possible ways but they are already reacting to something that it's becoming more and more evident so I think I wonder what will happen now in Europe when things are really you know going bad most of most of big European and small European states moving back to a quarantine and so on and so on everybody knows that it will be not to mention health problems new suffering it will be also a problem of economic problem it will be terrible but what interests me most and these are my favorite parts of the book there it is also a kind of existential almost I would say philosophical problem you know I don't think all people who protests masks are just crazy Trump nationalists it's something horrible that is happening our basic mode of everyday life communicating with others socializing and so on and so on is interrupted and it is a horrible thing we will really have to construct a new normality and this will bring all my psychiatrist friends are telling me tremendous social sorry mental health problems I don't know how it is in the States in Europe they are exploding and I'm talking about real numbers an Italian psychiatrist told me the high school children in northern Italy around of them half have serious mental health problems and so
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on which is serious in this way yeah in the United States as well yeah the pandemic has had tremendous mental health effects on on people suicide rate yeah yeah I don't know I don't know I think that the special problem of the United States is that almost nowhere in the world is this conflict between okay Trump is not a covid denier but he is a guy who thinks covid should be considered as too important some kind of normal life should go on I think that precisely this attitude of let's save our normal daily life unfortunately in the long term it will bring us to a new barbarism and I think yeah and I think if you especially if
on which is serious in this way yeah in the United States as well yeah the pandemic has had tremendous mental health effects on on people suicide rate yeah yeah I don't know I don't know I think that the special problem of the United States is that almost nowhere in the world is this conflict between okay Trump is not a covid denier but he is a guy who thinks covid should be considered as too important some kind of normal life should go on I think that precisely this attitude of let's save our normal daily life unfortunately in the long term it will bring us to a new barbarism and I think yeah and I think if you especially if
Slavoj Žižek
you think of what they're really saying which is um let's save the economy and the kind of push to return to normalcy right sorry it's not covid if it's covid then I have covid already for years because if you look at my old recording I sniff all the time no somebody already mocked at me but you must have have covid already for years what okay yeah yeah that's very important what you said I read some good economic analysis some of them even conservative which said that even from the economic standpoint a quick early lockdown is best again even for economy if you postpone it in the long term it will be worse also for economy look how they did it horrible example I don't know to follow it for us but China and so that not just China so that you will not accuse me of propagating communism there you know Chinese don't want to hear this you know which country is a true miracle Taiwan mhm okay big country practically no patient no no no covid case I don't know it's incredible Vietnam Cuba is not doing so bad New Zealand Australia Australia had another outbreak they contained it and so on but again through quick fast quarantine even in Israel now it worked they were for three weeks or what in strict quarantine it's it's getting better no yeah it's but I admit this is real problem as I'm saying all again and again a strong part of what we consider ordinary human dignity you proudly display your face you communicate openly with others you know will be lost now does this mean the end of humanity I think no you know why not because Agamben my friendly with him otherwise but he follows this line and he wrote recently a very interesting text I don't agree with it but it's very honest something like the house is on fire this idea is that even if we are approaching total catastrophe with covid we should behave with dignity even we if we see that our house is on fire that our world is disappearing we should gather the strength to go on as normal communicate face to face because then he Agamben goes into Levinas Levinasian territory the face the other's face is our only contact with the abyss of
you think of what they're really saying which is um let's save the economy and the kind of push to return to normalcy right sorry it's not covid if it's covid then I have covid already for years because if you look at my old recording I sniff all the time no somebody already mocked at me but you must have have covid already for years what okay yeah yeah that's very important what you said I read some good economic analysis some of them even conservative which said that even from the economic standpoint a quick early lockdown is best again even for economy if you postpone it in the long term it will be worse also for economy look how they did it horrible example I don't know to follow it for us but China and so that not just China so that you will not accuse me of propagating communism there you know Chinese don't want to hear this you know which country is a true miracle Taiwan mhm okay big country practically no patient no no no covid case I don't know it's incredible Vietnam Cuba is not doing so bad New Zealand Australia Australia had another outbreak they contained it and so on but again through quick fast quarantine even in Israel now it worked they were for three weeks or what in strict quarantine it's it's getting better no yeah it's but I admit this is real problem as I'm saying all again and again a strong part of what we consider ordinary human dignity you proudly display your face you communicate openly with others you know will be lost now does this mean the end of humanity I think no you know why not because Agamben my friendly with him otherwise but he follows this line and he wrote recently a very interesting text I don't agree with it but it's very honest something like the house is on fire this idea is that even if we are approaching total catastrophe with covid we should behave with dignity even we if we see that our house is on fire that our world is disappearing we should gather the strength to go on as normal communicate face to face because then he Agamben goes into Levinas Levinasian territory the face the other's face is our only contact with the abyss of
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otherness of
otherness of
Slavoj Žižek
personality not just object I disagree with it at a theoretical level already if there is a place where you really go deep into another person but you don't see his or her or their face it's psychoanalysis Freud was very wise here you know that in psychoanalytic session it's not face-to-face face-to-face is just the so-called preliminary encounters once things really start no the patient lies on the couch you if you are an analyst sit beside him Freud saw this very clearly that face is at the same time I would put it the ultimate mask right that's why not that I agree with agree with of course not with I forgot the word how do you call it when Muslim women are covered you know uh hijab niqab yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah not that I agree with it but I'm saying that that of course the problem with Islam I have is no if they praise so much some feminist Islamist that hijab enables you to retain your privacy blah blah well my answer is it would have been good then if all also men were to be ordered to wear hijab you know right like nonetheless since it's only women not men no you can you cannot abstract from this idea of how should I put it that the message of hijab
personality not just object I disagree with it at a theoretical level already if there is a place where you really go deep into another person but you don't see his or her or their face it's psychoanalysis Freud was very wise here you know that in psychoanalytic session it's not face-to-face face-to-face is just the so-called preliminary encounters once things really start no the patient lies on the couch you if you are an analyst sit beside him Freud saw this very clearly that face is at the same time I would put it the ultimate mask right that's why not that I agree with agree with of course not with I forgot the word how do you call it when Muslim women are covered you know uh hijab niqab yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah not that I agree with it but I'm saying that that of course the problem with Islam I have is no if they praise so much some feminist Islamist that hijab enables you to retain your privacy blah blah well my answer is it would have been good then if all also men were to be ordered to wear hijab you know right like nonetheless since it's only women not men no you can you cannot abstract from this idea of how should I put it that the message of hijab
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is nonetheless only men fully free being can show their face but I don't fetishize I don't fetishize the face I always this is an old paradox that I repeat in all my books the problem with masks is that okay not this faceless masks but masks that you wear how wrong face that they can tell more about you than your real face itself did you see that Jim Carrey movie The Mask yeah it's the correct thesis that mask can be more you than your stupid face itself you know something that you repress have repressed can come out in a mask when he puts the mask on he
is nonetheless only men fully free being can show their face but I don't fetishize I don't fetishize the face I always this is an old paradox that I repeat in all my books the problem with masks is that okay not this faceless masks but masks that you wear how wrong face that they can tell more about you than your real face itself did you see that Jim Carrey movie The Mask yeah it's the correct thesis that mask can be more you than your stupid face itself you know something that you repress have repressed can come out in a mask when he puts the mask on he
Slavoj Žižek
becomes his shadow his true self it's one of his best movies if you ask me you know apart from the utter vulgarity Dumb and Dumber but that's my private secret don't want to talk about that so wait um on the question of uh psychoanalysis and putting on a mask I wanted to ask you about kind of like a an obscure thing uh somebody a couple of months ago sent me a uh essay you wrote um that was an introduction to the Croatian edition of Christopher Lasch's Culture of Narcissism I don't know if you remember this but this is old text it's too orthodox my reference there is Otto Kernberg uh-huh who wrote the big book it's too too too it's too traditionally psychoanalytic although it touches something in me as a person if I may put it like this I am a totalitarian you know I hate I become like Goebbels and draw my gun if somebody says I want to express myself who the hell do you think you are I'm not
becomes his shadow his true self it's one of his best movies if you ask me you know apart from the utter vulgarity Dumb and Dumber but that's my private secret don't want to talk about that so wait um on the question of uh psychoanalysis and putting on a mask I wanted to ask you about kind of like a an obscure thing uh somebody a couple of months ago sent me a uh essay you wrote um that was an introduction to the Croatian edition of Christopher Lasch's Culture of Narcissism I don't know if you remember this but this is old text it's too orthodox my reference there is Otto Kernberg uh-huh who wrote the big book it's too too too it's too traditionally psychoanalytic although it touches something in me as a person if I may put it like this I am a totalitarian you know I hate I become like Goebbels and draw my gun if somebody says I want to express myself who the hell do you think you are I'm not
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interested in
interested in
Slavoj Žižek
your deeper and this is my personal attitude for example if somebody friend or even worse not a friend starts to tell me his or her or their private traumas sexual experiences I'm horrified at this keep the shit for yourself you know just feed it away yeah yeah I don't like I don't like this expressing yourself or whatever this is horrible if we look deep into each other or me in myself you know what you find some dirty horrible masochist egotist shit or whatever yeah yeah but that was so I in this sense I believe in dignity as a mask you know yeah I think that's the Eastern way that it's the Eastern European way which Americans find very difficult to deal with I mean in American culture there's this whole kind of emphasis on telling your story that I also find very disgusting and manipulative but yeah absolutely no yeah absolutely that's the this openness is the ultimate manipulation yes sorry go on yes it is but I ask you about Lasch because he's like a personal influence of mine and I found that as I when you meet him literal personal or just the book no no no he he died when I was like years old but um uh I whenever I talk about him I notice that there's an unusual and incredible resonance with people with like our audience of like young people who are yeah because he touched something which was correct at that time he saw what is flawed and wrong in all that hippie expressionist culture not only this even my friend old guy who recently died I'm not sure was it covid James Harvey the cinema theorist who wrote the best book on Ernst Lubitsch he he as it were without knowing him even applied Christopher Lasch to Hollywood and said the greatest catastrophe was the Actor's Studio Marlon Brando Montgomery Clift you know all that
your deeper and this is my personal attitude for example if somebody friend or even worse not a friend starts to tell me his or her or their private traumas sexual experiences I'm horrified at this keep the shit for yourself you know just feed it away yeah yeah I don't like I don't like this expressing yourself or whatever this is horrible if we look deep into each other or me in myself you know what you find some dirty horrible masochist egotist shit or whatever yeah yeah but that was so I in this sense I believe in dignity as a mask you know yeah I think that's the Eastern way that it's the Eastern European way which Americans find very difficult to deal with I mean in American culture there's this whole kind of emphasis on telling your story that I also find very disgusting and manipulative but yeah absolutely no yeah absolutely that's the this openness is the ultimate manipulation yes sorry go on yes it is but I ask you about Lasch because he's like a personal influence of mine and I found that as I when you meet him literal personal or just the book no no no he he died when I was like years old but um uh I whenever I talk about him I notice that there's an unusual and incredible resonance with people with like our audience of like young people who are yeah because he touched something which was correct at that time he saw what is flawed and wrong in all that hippie expressionist culture not only this even my friend old guy who recently died I'm not sure was it covid James Harvey the cinema theorist who wrote the best book on Ernst Lubitsch he he as it were without knowing him even applied Christopher Lasch to Hollywood and said the greatest catastrophe was the Actor's Studio Marlon Brando Montgomery Clift you know all that
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express yourself you know his favorite artists are Cary Grant and so on who are absolutely not expressive actors
express yourself you know his favorite artists are Cary Grant and so on who are absolutely not expressive actors
Slavoj Žižek
you know none of this show yourself identify with and so on and so on you know so I I I still find some people you must have met them they try to dismiss Lasch as secretly almost neo-conservative whatever often yeah yeah but not no no I am absolutely on his side here but my question is um how did you even uh kind of get how did he come on your radar how did that project come about if you remember if you don't you can tell me [unintelligible] totally crazy story extremely
you know none of this show yourself identify with and so on and so on you know so I I I still find some people you must have met them they try to dismiss Lasch as secretly almost neo-conservative whatever often yeah yeah but not no no I am absolutely on his side here but my question is um how did you even uh kind of get how did he come on your radar how did that project come about if you remember if you don't you can tell me [unintelligible] totally crazy story extremely
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superficial okay a friend from Croatia told me it was still Yugoslavia told me that
superficial okay a friend from Croatia told me it was still Yugoslavia told me that
Slavoj Žižek
they are translating Lasch and I was still very young at that point and I was interested if people invited me and would I be interested to read sorry to read the book and write an introduction it's simple as that that's how I discovered him and then I immediately felt for it and I even read some safe haven or whatever some haven in one of his other books and so on you know but I think that after Narcissism that he was what when I was young in the rock music we called one-hit wonder you know he had one hit and he never really caught up with it again you know well he said the same thing over again yeah he was like very repetitive but it still kind of holds today in a new context oh okay now I take this personally because I'm doing the same you know well we all do we all do no no no my last books are struggling again and again with the same problem you know you're playing the hits yeah and so people want you give me hope personally because I now see how it's done I will tell make a stupid jokes but as all my vulgar jokes are against myself yo if I give you hope then you must really be in deep shit you know well I can't argue with that a standard answer to a student after some talk in New York who came to me and said I would need a psychoanalysis could you be my analyst you know I told him you are really mad if you no no no I mean you give me hope as somebody who who wakes up late in the day and often repeats themselves yeah yeah yeah no no no now let's but still like how to put it on the other hand I have the real heavy diabetes you know yes and so on which means I need a lot of sleep so I need like from a.m. till a.m. it's the basic nine hours it's very sad and then and then short nap in the afternoon but let me tell you something I long for when I was still a strong Stalinist years ago I had such a strength not physically but like spiritually that I was able to skip two nights working if there was an urgency you know now I cannot even skip an afternoon I mean it's it's sad you know but I am naturally a workaholic you know how I see this if a day passes when because of other obligations blah blah I do nothing by doing I mean reading writing of course no I feel guilty strictly Protestant theological I feel guilty mhm so I I'm absolute unconditional what you know when I'm happy not after I finish a book because this is the worst anxiety I finish a book and then I plan the next book and already start to write it and then I can take a break but okay because finishing is late for my next work once you know what your next project is yeah yeah yeah without this I cannot even survive well let me ask you a personal question what are you afraid of if you if you don't plan the next one what will happen ah it's interesting I am not afraid to die I'm afraid of dying okay of having pain in what way I understand Brecht I read that Brecht when he knew the death was approaching he asked not only to be burned his
they are translating Lasch and I was still very young at that point and I was interested if people invited me and would I be interested to read sorry to read the book and write an introduction it's simple as that that's how I discovered him and then I immediately felt for it and I even read some safe haven or whatever some haven in one of his other books and so on you know but I think that after Narcissism that he was what when I was young in the rock music we called one-hit wonder you know he had one hit and he never really caught up with it again you know well he said the same thing over again yeah he was like very repetitive but it still kind of holds today in a new context oh okay now I take this personally because I'm doing the same you know well we all do we all do no no no my last books are struggling again and again with the same problem you know you're playing the hits yeah and so people want you give me hope personally because I now see how it's done I will tell make a stupid jokes but as all my vulgar jokes are against myself yo if I give you hope then you must really be in deep shit you know well I can't argue with that a standard answer to a student after some talk in New York who came to me and said I would need a psychoanalysis could you be my analyst you know I told him you are really mad if you no no no I mean you give me hope as somebody who who wakes up late in the day and often repeats themselves yeah yeah yeah no no no now let's but still like how to put it on the other hand I have the real heavy diabetes you know yes and so on which means I need a lot of sleep so I need like from a.m. till a.m. it's the basic nine hours it's very sad and then and then short nap in the afternoon but let me tell you something I long for when I was still a strong Stalinist years ago I had such a strength not physically but like spiritually that I was able to skip two nights working if there was an urgency you know now I cannot even skip an afternoon I mean it's it's sad you know but I am naturally a workaholic you know how I see this if a day passes when because of other obligations blah blah I do nothing by doing I mean reading writing of course no I feel guilty strictly Protestant theological I feel guilty mhm so I I'm absolute unconditional what you know when I'm happy not after I finish a book because this is the worst anxiety I finish a book and then I plan the next book and already start to write it and then I can take a break but okay because finishing is late for my next work once you know what your next project is yeah yeah yeah without this I cannot even survive well let me ask you a personal question what are you afraid of if you if you don't plan the next one what will happen ah it's interesting I am not afraid to die I'm afraid of dying okay of having pain in what way I understand Brecht I read that Brecht when he knew the death was approaching he asked not only to be burned his
unknown
body
body
Slavoj Žižek
but that immediately after death a surgeon or doctor with the scalpel cuts his heart he was afraid you know often it happens quite often I discovered doctors don't want to talk about it that you awaken a little bit you can awaken you are not really dead you know often this happens somehow even hours after you officially die your heart starts to beat you know how they know this it's horrible thing it's not a joke
but that immediately after death a surgeon or doctor with the scalpel cuts his heart he was afraid you know often it happens quite often I discovered doctors don't want to talk about it that you awaken a little bit you can awaken you are not really dead you know often this happens somehow even hours after you officially die your heart starts to beat you know how they know this it's horrible thing it's not a joke
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when they move some cemetery no they open the boxes no and
when they move some cemetery no they open the boxes no and
Slavoj Žižek
they found the bodies
they found the bodies
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move there and so on no so my fear is fear of dying slowly dying drowning and so on and then the other thing I'm afraid of for example let's say that somebody who is really close to me love object my son or whoever would die would die no problem for me I would just immediately focus on one question was it an instant death or did they suffer long I would probably have killed
move there and so on no so my fear is fear of dying slowly dying drowning and so on and then the other thing I'm afraid of for example let's say that somebody who is really close to me love object my son or whoever would die would die no problem for me I would just immediately focus on one question was it an instant death or did they suffer long I would probably have killed
Slavoj Žižek
myself if they were to suffer long if it's an instant death I would say ha ha let's go to a movie or theatre or whatever but this idea is this idea is my my true horror if you ask me slow suffering death sorry can we maybe slowly slowly bring it on I'm getting exhausted yeah of course yeah we can wrap it up yeah um okay thanks very much but tell me can I ask you a mystery question yes how do you survive is this your money do you get publicity how do you no no here I am pro-capitalist you know I admire people who like you found your way how do you survive does this red scare get you some money yeah this is our livelihood so don't worry where does the money come from Patreon sorry we use a website called Patreon where people pay us five dollars a month to get an extra
myself if they were to suffer long if it's an instant death I would say ha ha let's go to a movie or theatre or whatever but this idea is this idea is my my true horror if you ask me slow suffering death sorry can we maybe slowly slowly bring it on I'm getting exhausted yeah of course yeah we can wrap it up yeah um okay thanks very much but tell me can I ask you a mystery question yes how do you survive is this your money do you get publicity how do you no no here I am pro-capitalist you know I admire people who like you found your way how do you survive does this red scare get you some money yeah this is our livelihood so don't worry where does the money come from Patreon sorry we use a website called Patreon where people pay us five dollars a month to get an extra
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episode a week of the podcast really ah that's wonderful and the formula works you get enough idiots to exploit how should I put it yeah we're using you no no that's that's wonderful that's that's
episode a week of the podcast really ah that's wonderful and the formula works you get enough idiots to exploit how should I put it yeah we're using you no no that's that's wonderful that's that's
Slavoj Žižek
wonderful yes
wonderful yes
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because you know here I'm not the stupid old style communist no
because you know here I'm not the stupid old style communist no
Slavoj Žižek
no no
no no
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there are levels don't you agree right yeah yeah well survival is very important yeah there should be a space for people who find their way you know who
there are levels don't you agree right yeah yeah well survival is very important yeah there should be a space for people who find their way you know who
Slavoj Žižek
knew this very well in contrast to to Yeltsin catastrophe I think Yeltsin opened up the path to Putin when he screwed it up economically and the Chinese knew it very well don't begin with privatizing banks and profitable oil companies begin at everyday level you know small initiatives stores producing so on there capitalism works my god mhm yeah mhm yeah I'm not a naive guy but I'm so glad that and what did covid do to you we we made a lot of money on covid no no I'm not asking a private medical question sorry I mean financially did was it good for you it was good for us yes because lots of people like to listen to podcasts when they can't move their home yeah yeah
knew this very well in contrast to to Yeltsin catastrophe I think Yeltsin opened up the path to Putin when he screwed it up economically and the Chinese knew it very well don't begin with privatizing banks and profitable oil companies begin at everyday level you know small initiatives stores producing so on there capitalism works my god mhm yeah mhm yeah I'm not a naive guy but I'm so glad that and what did covid do to you we we made a lot of money on covid no no I'm not asking a private medical question sorry I mean financially did was it good for you it was good for us yes because lots of people like to listen to podcasts when they can't move their home yeah yeah
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yeah and how did you overcome because you're quite well known I checked you on Wikipedia and so on how did you was it never a problem
yeah and how did you overcome because you're quite well known I checked you on Wikipedia and so on how did you was it never a problem
Slavoj Žižek
the fact that you are not real Anglo-Saxon Americans it was never a problem it worked well for us I think it's kind of our shtick it worked out for us because we started when the whole Russiagate thing was really exploding aha Americans are very interested in in Russians did you see that TV series I quite liked it up to a point I don't have time to watch them Americans of two KGB spies I did yeah I enjoyed that you know which series I now saw and some of my friends like Alenka Zupancic look that the guys maybe really knew of us Rake not rape K like K Rake R A K E an Australian series about a crazy lawyer
the fact that you are not real Anglo-Saxon Americans it was never a problem it worked well for us I think it's kind of our shtick it worked out for us because we started when the whole Russiagate thing was really exploding aha Americans are very interested in in Russians did you see that TV series I quite liked it up to a point I don't have time to watch them Americans of two KGB spies I did yeah I enjoyed that you know which series I now saw and some of my friends like Alenka Zupancic look that the guys maybe really knew of us Rake not rape K like K Rake R A K E an Australian series about a crazy lawyer
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and there are so many references to my Alenka Zupancic Mladen Dolar's
and there are so many references to my Alenka Zupancic Mladen Dolar's
Slavoj Žižek
texts you know like a guy a lawyer says this is not only
texts you know like a guy a lawyer says this is not only
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nothing this is less than nothing than nothing nothing title of my book then
nothing this is less than nothing than nothing nothing title of my book then
Slavoj Žižek
another guy develops a point about Preston Sturges I think Sullivan's Travels or which comedy which is as if taken from Alenka Zupancic's book and so on so don't underestimate Australia in the sense that they have they have good TV series there you know that's for me civilization I think serious civilization is defined by two things
another guy develops a point about Preston Sturges I think Sullivan's Travels or which comedy which is as if taken from Alenka Zupancic's book and so on so don't underestimate Australia in the sense that they have they have good TV series there you know that's for me civilization I think serious civilization is defined by two things
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that you have good detective writers and good TV series that's why Iceland Reykjavik
that you have good detective writers and good TV series that's why Iceland Reykjavik
Slavoj Žižek
and so on are I love them my favorite place almost in the world they have now Valhalla Murders and so on excellent TV mini series you know I I cannot [unintelligible] why I was going to ask you for your recommendations but that's a good into yeah but you can get them you know through Pirate Bay and so on I met when I was the last time in Sweden the guy who was the first who put together Pirate Bay and he told me a wonderful story how respect survives he was put in prison for a couple of month you know ah because of Pirate Bay and there not only were the guards very respectful towards him but they asked him for autograph and allow them themselves autograph it still it still works you know well it's like you say in Pandemic about the Somali pirates they had to turn to piracy because their oceans were depleted and we have to turn to piracy I don't I don't I don't sympathize with them but it's true people often think these are just violent Muslims they don't they don't know this my god
and so on are I love them my favorite place almost in the world they have now Valhalla Murders and so on excellent TV mini series you know I I cannot [unintelligible] why I was going to ask you for your recommendations but that's a good into yeah but you can get them you know through Pirate Bay and so on I met when I was the last time in Sweden the guy who was the first who put together Pirate Bay and he told me a wonderful story how respect survives he was put in prison for a couple of month you know ah because of Pirate Bay and there not only were the guards very respectful towards him but they asked him for autograph and allow them themselves autograph it still it still works you know well it's like you say in Pandemic about the Somali pirates they had to turn to piracy because their oceans were depleted and we have to turn to piracy I don't I don't I don't sympathize with them but it's true people often think these are just violent Muslims they don't they don't know this my god
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no how will your Belarus do
no how will your Belarus do
Slavoj Žižek
now because one
now because one
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of the main sources was reselling cheap Russian oil no now that time is over yeah well
of the main sources was reselling cheap Russian oil no now that time is over yeah well
Slavoj Žižek
there's a big tech sector there's a big um there's a lot of tech IT workers in Belarus who are sort of at the forefront of the of the political opposition as I understand so aha they'll transition to a liberal democracy tech economy and another cynical thing you know when I was the last time some three years ago in Petersburg but this is prohibited name I don't know Petersburg I only know Leningrad when I was in Leningrad you know that opposite my hotel was something called Belarusian a Belarussian food store and I didn't know you know what was the point Belarusians did an ingenious thing friend explained to me you know the Crimea occupation blah blah and then boycott of Russia yeah but Belarus was not under boycott they opened out in all Russian cities dozens of stores where you get typical Belarussian products Stilton and Camembert cheese French pâtés and so on you know brilliant they just imported them repackaged them and oh my god that should survive Lukashenko is bad that spirit should survive I think no but sorry if you are from Nagorno-Karabakh do you have some latest news how does it look now sorry because now Azerbaijani Azerbaijani is now again making an attack no or how are you a pessimist there how will it end the war um yeah I'm a pessimist because Azerbaijan is aligned with uh Israel also but you
there's a big tech sector there's a big um there's a lot of tech IT workers in Belarus who are sort of at the forefront of the of the political opposition as I understand so aha they'll transition to a liberal democracy tech economy and another cynical thing you know when I was the last time some three years ago in Petersburg but this is prohibited name I don't know Petersburg I only know Leningrad when I was in Leningrad you know that opposite my hotel was something called Belarusian a Belarussian food store and I didn't know you know what was the point Belarusians did an ingenious thing friend explained to me you know the Crimea occupation blah blah and then boycott of Russia yeah but Belarus was not under boycott they opened out in all Russian cities dozens of stores where you get typical Belarussian products Stilton and Camembert cheese French pâtés and so on you know brilliant they just imported them repackaged them and oh my god that should survive Lukashenko is bad that spirit should survive I think no but sorry if you are from Nagorno-Karabakh do you have some latest news how does it look now sorry because now Azerbaijani Azerbaijani is now again making an attack no or how are you a pessimist there how will it end the war um yeah I'm a pessimist because Azerbaijan is aligned with uh Israel also but you
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see
see
Slavoj Žižek
but this is the perversity Azerbaijan has
but this is the perversity Azerbaijan has
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Israel and
Israel and
Slavoj Žižek
Turkey yes and and I mean you know like there's obviously a historic quarter in Jerusalem of Armenians the Hitler I think alluded to planning the genesis or the Holocaust based on the Armenian genocide it's very perverted yeah
Turkey yes and and I mean you know like there's obviously a historic quarter in Jerusalem of Armenians the Hitler I think alluded to planning the genesis or the Holocaust based on the Armenian genocide it's very perverted yeah
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no this is
no this is
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this is yeah but but where
this is yeah but but where
Slavoj Žižek
is Putin here doesn't Armenia have a
is Putin here doesn't Armenia have a
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special military pact with Russia no Putin is afraid to yes yeah well I think this is a big pro it's sort of like a proxy war of
special military pact with Russia no Putin is afraid to yes yeah well I think this is a big pro it's sort of like a proxy war of
Slavoj Žižek
Russia and Turkey as I understand it for influence in the region so yeah but you must hope for yeah I mean it gives me no pleasure but I think that Russia you know Russia being on the side of Armenia is is the bulwark that uh keeps them from being annihilated essentially ah so in so it has some good point nonetheless it's because of this that Azerbaijan cannot make a total attack on like I think historically yeah because I mean the thing with Belarus and and Armenia or Karabakh is that these are kind of totally forgettable countries that nobody cares about in
Russia and Turkey as I understand it for influence in the region so yeah but you must hope for yeah I mean it gives me no pleasure but I think that Russia you know Russia being on the side of Armenia is is the bulwark that uh keeps them from being annihilated essentially ah so in so it has some good point nonetheless it's because of this that Azerbaijan cannot make a total attack on like I think historically yeah because I mean the thing with Belarus and and Armenia or Karabakh is that these are kind of totally forgettable countries that nobody cares about in
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the West mhm oh yeah but nonetheless
the West mhm oh yeah but nonetheless
Slavoj Žižek
I I like these small countries even even Georgia Gruzia no
I I like these small countries even even Georgia Gruzia no
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mhm yeah it was very popular before covid as a food tourism destination even my my country
mhm yeah it was very popular before covid as a food tourism destination even my my country
Slavoj Žižek
Slovenia you know the Italy of the Caucasus
Slovenia you know the Italy of the Caucasus
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these are these are nice countries but how is Armenia doing very bad
these are these are nice countries but how is Armenia doing very bad
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not
not
Slavoj Žižek
too bad economically I think it's doing pretty terribly there's probably a very high I think so oh my god yes yeah there's probably a high they're also I think um if you I've heard I haven't been there ever because I'm from Moscow but I've heard that there's also kind of like this burgeoning tech sector people are like young people are throwing themselves headlong into kind of neoliberalization everybody speaks English in Yerevan this sort of thing um yeah but nonetheless what you mentioned now you know how often I mention it Yerevan Yerevan my favorite city in the world you know Yerevan Radio Yerevan jokes you know they are among you mentioned Yerevan Yerevan is this isn't this the standard topic of the best Soviet jokes a listener asks Radio Yerevan I only know the racist ones which no no no but I know like the one that I all the time quotes you know
too bad economically I think it's doing pretty terribly there's probably a very high I think so oh my god yes yeah there's probably a high they're also I think um if you I've heard I haven't been there ever because I'm from Moscow but I've heard that there's also kind of like this burgeoning tech sector people are like young people are throwing themselves headlong into kind of neoliberalization everybody speaks English in Yerevan this sort of thing um yeah but nonetheless what you mentioned now you know how often I mention it Yerevan Yerevan my favorite city in the world you know Yerevan Radio Yerevan jokes you know they are among you mentioned Yerevan Yerevan is this isn't this the standard topic of the best Soviet jokes a listener asks Radio Yerevan I only know the racist ones which no no no but I know like the one that I all the time quotes you know
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about Rabinovich
about Rabinovich
Slavoj Žižek
you know I begin even my book with Rabinovich a listener asks Radio Yerevan is it true that Rabinovich won a new car on lottery no mhm you know what's the answer in principle is true thus it wasn't a new car but an old bicycle and he didn't win it it was stolen from him you know the formula there is always this one you know in
you know I begin even my book with Rabinovich a listener asks Radio Yerevan is it true that Rabinovich won a new car on lottery no mhm you know what's the answer in principle is true thus it wasn't a new car but an old bicycle and he didn't win it it was stolen from him you know the formula there is always this one you know in
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principle it's true but no right but this is probably the mythical Russian Yerevan no this do you have a great tradition how is it in Belarus are there jokes about Batka
principle it's true but no right but this is probably the mythical Russian Yerevan no this do you have a great tradition how is it in Belarus are there jokes about Batka
Slavoj Žižek
about Lukashenko or it's too traumatic to make jokes um I don't know I don't I have some family there but I'm not very close to so I don't know what well they call it the slipper revolution because they started calling him
about Lukashenko or it's too traumatic to make jokes um I don't know I don't I have some family there but I'm not very close to so I don't know what well they call it the slipper revolution because they started calling him
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like Tarakan like cockroach and they like like the way you use a slipper to squash a bug that's kind of like their brand and another extremely dirty politically correct question if you are
like Tarakan like cockroach and they like like the way you use a slipper to squash a bug that's kind of like their brand and another extremely dirty politically correct question if you are
Slavoj Žižek
I'm not saying you should be not gay but lesbian but hetero did you ever have sexual dreams I hope not about Lukashenko's son he is now promoted as the young he's very handsome he is a very handsome
I'm not saying you should be not gay but lesbian but hetero did you ever have sexual dreams I hope not about Lukashenko's son he is now promoted as the young he's very handsome he is a very handsome
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boy yeah he's the Barron Trump yeah but but isn't it something like a little
boy yeah he's the Barron Trump yeah but but isn't it something like a little
Slavoj Žižek
bit restrained there were even rumors that okay we in Slovenia are proud about it because the usual the myth is that Melania is speaking to him in Slovene also because yeah because Barron is her son so Barron has her son mhm we've never heard her speak so he might yeah I wouldn't be surprised if Barron Trump spoke a little Slovene yeah although he she Melania
bit restrained there were even rumors that okay we in Slovenia are proud about it because the usual the myth is that Melania is speaking to him in Slovene also because yeah because Barron is her son so Barron has her son mhm we've never heard her speak so he might yeah I wouldn't be surprised if Barron Trump spoke a little Slovene yeah although he she Melania
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ignores all Slovene links
ignores all Slovene links
Slavoj Žižek
you know they try to get some statement from her and so on they secretly hope that she will visit Slovenia my god ah you were born no no no she's I heard the rumor at Slovene embassy in
you know they try to get some statement from her and so on they secretly hope that she will visit Slovenia my god ah you were born no no no she's I heard the rumor at Slovene embassy in
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Washington that she is totally under
Washington that she is totally under
Slavoj Žižek
control
control
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like you know every public move Trump people control
like you know every public move Trump people control
Slavoj Žižek
her and so on and
her and so on and
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so on she's heavily surveyed I mean I guess it's a flattering way to maintain mhm but Kamala Harris I find it nice when Trump says said about Kamala did you read here
so on she's heavily surveyed I mean I guess it's a flattering way to maintain mhm but Kamala Harris I find it nice when Trump says said about Kamala did you read here
Slavoj Žižek
this that she is not only a socialist she is
this that she is not only a socialist she is
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much worse she is a communist I didn't hear that I I wish I was hoping he'd say
much worse she is a communist I didn't hear that I I wish I was hoping he'd say
Slavoj Žižek
she had a strong and developed upper body or something
she had a strong and developed upper body or something
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to that effect um yeah yeah yeah but but it's uh but I think but I think this is not just an exaggeration a joke you know these titles
to that effect um yeah yeah yeah but but it's uh but I think but I think this is not just an exaggeration a joke you know these titles
Slavoj Žižek
nonetheless define our reality how this perception
nonetheless define our reality how this perception
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because in Trump's view there is no liberal
because in Trump's view there is no liberal
Slavoj Žižek
center
center
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you are either for him or you are a socialist communist you know right it's it's almost like inverted Stalinism where for Stalinist if you are against Stalin you are a neo-fascist or whatever right it's horrible listen I have to stop now I'm sorry okay
you are either for him or you are a socialist communist you know right it's it's almost like inverted Stalinism where for Stalinist if you are against Stalin you are a neo-fascist or whatever right it's horrible listen I have to stop now I'm sorry okay
Slavoj Žižek
yes we'll let you go thank you so much please censor it a little bit a little bit do it and I hope that I will bring you some five dollar idiots you know or no yeah I think you will can I ask you you experiment or you want to be honest did you at some point like try
yes we'll let you go thank you so much please censor it a little bit a little bit do it and I hope that I will bring you some five dollar idiots you know or no yeah I think you will can I ask you you experiment or you want to be honest did you at some point like try
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to raise it to or lower it and then
to raise it to or lower it and then
Slavoj Žižek
find the optimal there's different there's a sliding scale there's a sliding scale so people can choose some people give us more money just for fun yeah really oh you should definitely support this fun this type of humor giving you more money no that's okay I really wish you all the best all success we wish you the best too thank you Slavoj don't make it don't
find the optimal there's different there's a sliding scale there's a sliding scale so people can choose some people give us more money just for fun yeah really oh you should definitely support this fun this type of humor giving you more money no that's okay I really wish you all the best all success we wish you the best too thank you Slavoj don't make it don't
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make me appear too nervous and stupid if you can do some benevolent censorship when I am too stupid we will thank you very much and go
make me appear too nervous and stupid if you can do some benevolent censorship when I am too stupid we will thank you very much and go
Slavoj Žižek
on please thanks and let's hope that we will survive this
on please thanks and let's hope that we will survive this
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shit you know but in New York you
shit you know but in New York you
Slavoj Žižek
were a little bit better now no we are yeah yes yet still
were a little bit better now no we are yeah yes yet still
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is it true
is it true
Slavoj Žižek
that still I mean that that downtown Soho and so on that it's still half dead it's not really alive again no it's slowly yeah but that was before covid it the there a lot of the storefronts
that still I mean that that downtown Soho and so on that it's still half dead it's not really alive again no it's slowly yeah but that was before covid it the there a lot of the storefronts
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couldn't
couldn't
Slavoj Žižek
pay their rent so it was already pretty kind of crappy empty mhm oh
pay their rent so it was already pretty kind of crappy empty mhm oh
unknown
that's horrible yeah but I read that
that's horrible yeah but I read that
Slavoj Žižek
in this just in this covid year that from Manhattan only almost half a million rich people moved out you know bought houses in where in New Hampshire and all that Long Island area and so on yeah
in this just in this covid year that from Manhattan only almost half a million rich people moved out you know bought houses in where in New Hampshire and all that Long Island area and so on yeah
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yeah
yeah
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listen all the best to you and survive thank you
listen all the best to you and survive thank you
Slavoj Žižek
Slavoj thank you Sera how do I go out here ah okay I will learn have a time bye-bye thanks bye
Slavoj thank you Sera how do I go out here ah okay I will learn have a time bye-bye thanks bye