“Trump is a Fetish” Slavoj Žižek Meets Yanis Varoufakis (Part 2)
Debate · How To Academy ·
2024 · 0:21:51 · 3,192 words
with Yanis Varoufakis, Co-Discussant
capitalismfascism-populismliberalism-political-correctnessdemocracygeopolitics-wareconomicsideologypsychoanalysissexuality-genderrace-antisemitism
A dialogue between Slavoj Žižek and Yanis Varoufakis on leftist electoral strategy under techno-feudal capitalism: tactical alliances with small capitalists, the case for a genuine third party, and why neither the Democrats nor Labour offer a real alternative. Trump is analyzed as a fetish concealing class struggle and as a symptom of Obama's failure; the Democrats are argued to be the greater danger to world peace. The talk closes with a symmetric analysis of Israel and Iran as regimes that needed external war to defuse internal revolt, and Žižek's account of the personal cost of supporting Palestine in Germany.
every located moment in this recording, click one to read it
The ideas in it 8
in the order they first come up; click a row for what he does with the idea here
Varoufakis's term: a stage where cloud/platform owners extract rent from producers, so small capitalists pay 'cloud rent' to a techno-feudal lord like Bezos.
Varoufakis's coinage for the cut (e.g. Bezos retaining 40% of the price) that small producers pay to platform owners as quasi-feudal rent.
Žižek's branded pejorative for the pseudo-welfare, politically-correct establishment that displaces class with culture-war demonization.
as “Trump as fetish”
Žižek's repurposing of the Freudian fetish: for the politically-correct radical center, Trump is the last thing they see before they would see class struggle.
In Freud, the fetish is the last thing seen before seeing castration; Žižek redeploys it as the screen that blocks perception of class struggle.
The social antagonism that Trump-as-fetish and the radical center's demonization of Trump work to conceal.
Lacanian sense: Trump is read as a symptom of Obama and of the failure of the radical center, not as a self-standing evil.
Stalin's paradox, when asked which deviation is worse, right or left, he answered 'they are both worse'; Žižek applies it to Kamala and Trump.
Stories he reaches for 2
Asked in the late 1920s which deviation is worse, rightist or leftist, Stalin answered not that both are equally bad but that 'they are both worse'; Žižek applies the quip to Kamala and Trump.
“which deviation is worse, rightist or left? he said, not both are equally bad, but they are both worse.”
Thatcher, asked why she disliked Tony Blair though he had copied her ideology, called it her greatest career success, he turned Labour into a version of the Tory party, then added: if you're going to vote Tory, why not vote for the actual one?
“if you're going to vote for the tory party, why not vote for the actual one?”
Works invoked 1
Technofeudalism book
Varoufakis's book, referenced by Žižek, that frames the present as techno-feudalism and gives the hint for a tactical alliance with small capitalists against the big cloud lords.
People invoked 28
Bill Clinton negative
Appointed Summers and Geithner to unleash the toxic powers of Wall Street on the American people.
Cited as evidence Trump can ease tensions: by simply contacting Kim Jong-un the Korean tension was reduced.
Kamala Harris negative
Paired with Trump under 'both are worse'; judged not in control of her own position, with neocons behind her.
The Kurdish woman killed in Iran whose death triggered an authentic feminist movement that the Iranian nomenclatura needed to suppress via tension with Israel.
Vladimir Lenin positive
The idea of a tactical alliance with some capitalists is endorsed as Leninist: 'that's lenin too'.
Not just a bad guy but a Freudian fetish figure and a symptom of Obama; analyzed rather than merely demonized.
Jill Stein positive
Named as the third-party alternative to vote for in safe seats rather than endorsing Trump or Clinton.
Referenced as 'jeremy', thrown out of the Labour Party; the treatment figures the party's rightward drift.
Timothy Geithner negative
Paired with Summers as the Clinton/Obama financiers who bailed out bankers and imposed austerity.
John Bolton negative
Called 'the true madman, who is now, of course, on the democratic side'; Trump fired him, which Žižek counts as a point in Trump's favor.
Jeff Bezos negative
The techno-feudal lord who retains 40% of the price when a small capitalist sells through Amazon.
Lawrence Summers negative
Appointed by Clinton to unleash Wall Street, then by Obama to bail out bankers and impose austerity on the people who voted for him.
Brought back as comparison: Reeves' austerity rhetoric is judged more crude than Osborne's.
Bernie Sanders positive
Respected; Žižek praises Bernie's 'genius' in targeting poor whites who otherwise vote Trump, and regrets he did not risk a third party.
Žižek is critical of Hamas from a standard liberal position, while still holding Israel primarily culpable for the war.
Yanis Varoufakis positive
Interlocutor; Žižek broadly agrees and uses the dialogue to refine a shared left strategy, raising only friendly differences.
Benjamin Netanyahu negative
His attempt to take over the supreme court triggered mass Israeli protests just before October; he needed the war to reassert control.
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez negative
Žižek says he and Varoufakis both have serious doubts about her political orientation.
Rachel Reeves negative
Criticized for warning of austerity and maxed-out state credit cards; called less eloquent than George Osborne.
Joe Biden negative
Žižek poses whether Biden did some good things in the economy; the gesture of joining the auto-workers picket line is judged symbolic, not substantive.
Hillary Clinton negative
The DNC stole the nomination from Bernie in a criminal fashion for Hillary Clinton; the lesser-evil vote-for-Clinton line is rejected.
Cited as still inside Labour and facing the first-past-the-post trap that discourages a breakaway left party.
Varoufakis quotes her 1996 BBC interview: her greatest success was turning Labour into a version of the Tory party, so why not vote for the actual Tory party.
Barack Obama negative
Trump is a symptom of Obama; Obama deported more people than Trump, discreetly, and bailed out bankers while imposing austerity.
Joseph Stalin positive
Žižek insists he is not a Stalinist but reuses Stalin's 'both are worse' paradox for Kamala and Trump.
Noam Chomsky positive
Shared a stage with Varoufakis at the New York Public Library; they independently agreed on the safe-seat vs swing-state voting tactic.
Sigmund Freud positive
The Freudian fetish as the last thing seen before castration is the model for Žižek's reading of Trump as fetish.
Tony Blair negative
Cited via Thatcher as the proof that a center-left party copying the right gives voters no reason to prefer it.
What it argues
Tactical alliance with small capitalists against big techThe case for a genuine leftist third partyTrump as fetish concealing class struggleTrump as symptom of Obama and the Democratic failureDemocrats as the greater danger to world peaceIsrael and Iran both needed war to defuse internal revoltThe personal price of supporting Palestine in Germany
Dialectical moves 4
“Trump is the last thing they see before they would see class struggle, social antagonism.”
The fetish is not the truth but the screen: demonizing Trump blocks the radical center from seeing the underlying antagonism it produces.
“Trump is a symptom of Obama — yes, he was a creator.”
The apparent cause (Trump) is the symptom of its supposed opposite (Obama's centrist rule); the pathology belongs to the system that produced him.
“Kamala and Trump, they are both worse.”
Applying Stalin's 'both are worse' paradox, Žižek refuses the lesser-evil framing: the two options are symmetrically a defeat.
“In both countries, we have the same problem.”
Israel and Iran, apparent enemies, are structurally symmetrical: each regime needed an external enemy to defuse a domestic democratic uprising.
Claims 18
asserts
The left should risk a tactical alliance with some small capitalists against the big corporations.anti-monopoly tactical strategy
asserts
The UK Labour Party is now a radical-center, right-leaning party — a proper Tory party dressed in red.Labour Party
asserts
Now is the time to risk a genuine leftist third party that says openly what must be done, rather than rallying behind the center against Trump.third-party strategy
reframes
The Democrats' fear of losing centrist workers by moving left is misguided; the real target should be the poor whites who otherwise vote Trump.Democratic electoral strategy
asserts
Trump is a fetish figure: the last thing the radical center sees before it would see class struggle and social antagonism.Trump and class struggle
reframes
Demonizing Trump must not obscure that he is a symptom of the failure of the radical center and of Obama.liberal demonization of Trump
asserts
Trump is a symptom of Obama, even a creation of him.Trump-Obama relation
asserts
Under Obama there were more deportations than under Trump, carried out more discreetly.Obama's immigration record
asserts
Biden's pro-worker gestures, such as joining the auto-workers picket line, were symbolic and not matched by substantive industrial or health policy.Biden's economic record · Yanis Varoufakis
asserts
On the Stalin logic, Kamala and Trump are 'both worse'; the radical position is to say neither-nor.2024 US election
asserts
The Democrats pose a greater threat to world peace than Trump, because the neocons now driving the party have never seen a war they don't like.Democrats and world peace
asserts
Trump eased tensions by contacting Kim Jong-un and stopped a planned bombing of Iran, showing détente is possible where Democrats escalate.Trump and foreign policy
asserts
Israel is the main culprit and literally needed this war; it is unconditionally served by the US.Israel and the Gaza war
asserts
Israel and Iran face the same structural problem: both regimes, threatened by mass internal revolt, needed external tension or war to reassert control.Israel-Iran symmetry
asserts
Žižek is critical of Hamas from a standard liberal position while still holding Israel primarily culpable.Hamas and Israel
asserts
Supporting Palestine has a personal cost: Žižek was sidelined at the Frankfurt Book Fair and is now absent from German media.Palestine advocacy in Germany
asserts
The center-left keeps losing because, by copying the right, it gives voters no reason to prefer it over the actual right.center-left decline · Yanis Varoufakis
asserts
Leftist positions (e.g. spending on housing not nuclear submarines) are majoritarian, yet center-left parties never adopt them.majoritarian left policy · Yanis Varoufakis
Quotes 6
“for this new pseudo. welfare, politically correct, radical center. trump is the last thing they see before they would see class struggle, social antagonism.”Slavoj Žižek · fetish conceals class struggle
“trump is a symptom of obama.”Slavoj Žižek · Trump as symptom of Democratic failure
“now is the time to risk a third party.”Slavoj Žižek · the third-party moment
“kamala and trump, they are both worse.”Slavoj Žižek · Stalin's paradox applied to 2024
“israel literally needed this war.”Slavoj Žižek · Israel needed the war
“in both countries, we have the same problem.”Slavoj Žižek · Israel-Iran structural symmetry
Transcript 59 turns
Slavoj Žižek
now i ask you a question,, but a positive one. in your book on techno-feudalism, you even give a hint. and i would say, why not? that at a tactical level, maybe at some point the left should even risk a tactical alliance with some small capitalists against the big corporations and so on. i shouldn't be afraid that's this, that's lenin too. yeah,,, although...
now i ask you a question,, but a positive one. in your book on techno-feudalism, you even give a hint. and i would say, why not? that at a tactical level, maybe at some point the left should even risk a tactical alliance with some small capitalists against the big corporations and so on. i shouldn't be afraid that's this, that's lenin too. yeah,,, although...
Yanis Varoufakis
uh. because let's say if you are a small-scale capitalist producing electric bicycles and you are selling them through amazon.com or any of these you know, jeff bezos is retaining 40% of the price.
uh. because let's say if you are a small-scale capitalist producing electric bicycles and you are selling them through amazon.com or any of these you know, jeff bezos is retaining 40% of the price.
Slavoj Žižek
so essentially
so essentially
Yanis Varoufakis
actually you pay rent, cloud rent, i call it, to the techno-feudal lord.
actually you pay rent, cloud rent, i call it, to the techno-feudal lord.
Slavoj Žižek
it.
it.
Yanis Varoufakis
scope for an alliance but of course the alliance needs a political party too that's going to be the avant-garde and we don't have that you don't have the labour party here..
scope for an alliance but of course the alliance needs a political party too that's going to be the avant-garde and we don't have that you don't have the labour party here..
Slavoj Žižek
no, delay, i mean wouldn't you agree with not i will now be really evil, that. united kingdom now has a big radical center party which is more oriented towards the right, but right center and it's called labor party..
no, delay, i mean wouldn't you agree with not i will now be really evil, that. united kingdom now has a big radical center party which is more oriented towards the right, but right center and it's called labor party..
Yanis Varoufakis
they have the proper Thatcherite party in government now. rachel reeves, the moment, even before she was elected. dared say to you folks. warn you of the austerity which is now imposing on you, that the credit card of the state has been maxed out. bring george osborne back. i mean, he was saying it in a much, much more eloquent manner because he's more educated than rachel reeves is. so now you have the proper Tory party in power, dressed in red.
they have the proper Thatcherite party in government now. rachel reeves, the moment, even before she was elected. dared say to you folks. warn you of the austerity which is now imposing on you, that the credit card of the state has been maxed out. bring george osborne back. i mean, he was saying it in a much, much more eloquent manner because he's more educated than rachel reeves is. so now you have the proper Tory party in power, dressed in red.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, this is why would you agree or not another crucial point political you know, people ask us what to do and so on. and as you said when we just debated there briefly before coming here, what bernie sanders, whom we both respect at some level, in contrast to the beautiful lady aoc about whom we both have serious doubts, her political orientation, but that you said that he already, when did he begin, eight, ten years ago, 11? he should risk a third party. the big problem with democrats, among others, is that they all the time focus on this fear, if we move too much to the right, we will lose the centrist workers. but i think
yeah, this is why would you agree or not another crucial point political you know, people ask us what to do and so on. and as you said when we just debated there briefly before coming here, what bernie sanders, whom we both respect at some level, in contrast to the beautiful lady aoc about whom we both have serious doubts, her political orientation, but that you said that he already, when did he begin, eight, ten years ago, 11? he should risk a third party. the big problem with democrats, among others, is that they all the time focus on this fear, if we move too much to the right, we will lose the centrist workers. but i think
Yanis Varoufakis
to the left, you mean? if we move too much to the left.
to the left, you mean? if we move too much to the left.
Slavoj Žižek
to the left we will but bernie already 15 years or how much ago gave a proper answer to this. i found it ingenious. he said, no, our target should not be this center, our target should be those poor white people who otherwise vote for trump today. and he proved that this can work in vermont. who are his voters? those poor small farmers, but to make the basic point that's important. don't you think that now when we have this nightmare in power, the solution should not be what radical liberal, moderate, they think they are not center, leftist center try to convince us now we have all to stick together. no, now is the time to risk a third party. which genuine leftist party? which simply says openly what it has to be done. we can go later into this communism and so on because i think that again, the genius of bernie was that already at that point, again, he said our target should be... those who otherwise vote for trump and trump is, as you wrote about it, is literally. getting strength from this gap because he literally addresses, he is not only anti-immigrant. he anti-immigrant stance is at the same time sustained by a pseudo-not left but sympathy with ordinary working people and so on and so on. so would you agree or not that of course strategically, let's say we have two blocks, radical center and whatever it will be, new left. now, i don't a priori exclude partial collaborations. like if there is a law proposed by conservatives against abortion or lgbt, whatever, no problem. we go together with them. but we must make our position clear, the left. or.
to the left we will but bernie already 15 years or how much ago gave a proper answer to this. i found it ingenious. he said, no, our target should not be this center, our target should be those poor white people who otherwise vote for trump today. and he proved that this can work in vermont. who are his voters? those poor small farmers, but to make the basic point that's important. don't you think that now when we have this nightmare in power, the solution should not be what radical liberal, moderate, they think they are not center, leftist center try to convince us now we have all to stick together. no, now is the time to risk a third party. which genuine leftist party? which simply says openly what it has to be done. we can go later into this communism and so on because i think that again, the genius of bernie was that already at that point, again, he said our target should be... those who otherwise vote for trump and trump is, as you wrote about it, is literally. getting strength from this gap because he literally addresses, he is not only anti-immigrant. he anti-immigrant stance is at the same time sustained by a pseudo-not left but sympathy with ordinary working people and so on and so on. so would you agree or not that of course strategically, let's say we have two blocks, radical center and whatever it will be, new left. now, i don't a priori exclude partial collaborations. like if there is a law proposed by conservatives against abortion or lgbt, whatever, no problem. we go together with them. but we must make our position clear, the left. or.
Yanis Varoufakis
i a problem here. i see no problem with this whatsoever and bernie sanders had the right instinct when he was saying that more than 50% of americans live paycheck to paycheck. in a country where if you fall ill, you become bankrupt and you fall out of the point of view of society, you become completely marginalized, you become a non-person.
i a problem here. i see no problem with this whatsoever and bernie sanders had the right instinct when he was saying that more than 50% of americans live paycheck to paycheck. in a country where if you fall ill, you become bankrupt and you fall out of the point of view of society, you become completely marginalized, you become a non-person.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah.
yeah.
Yanis Varoufakis
and therefore, yeah. the majoritarian views within society. because let's face it, we leftists are in the majority when it comes to our position. if you were to go out there, here in britain, and you were to say to people, what do you prefer? 300 billion to be spent on nuclear submarines that we can't even use because we don't have the keys, the americans have not passed them on to us, from whom we bought the nuclear submarines, or should we put them in know, social housing so that we ameliorate the fact
and therefore, yeah. the majoritarian views within society. because let's face it, we leftists are in the majority when it comes to our position. if you were to go out there, here in britain, and you were to say to people, what do you prefer? 300 billion to be spent on nuclear submarines that we can't even use because we don't have the keys, the americans have not passed them on to us, from whom we bought the nuclear submarines, or should we put them in know, social housing so that we ameliorate the fact
Slavoj Žižek
the
the
Yanis Varoufakis
young people cannot afford to buy a house or to rent a house. 80% deep down, they will say, of course, nuclear submarines are a waste of time, especially if we don't have the keys to them. one question after the other, our positions are majoritarian, and yet the center-left parties never adopt them. never adopt them. and that's where trump. that if they become like the right but right that is light, you know, racist light, pro-capitalist light, that it doesn't work. and margaret thatcher was the one that answered the question because i remember she was being interviewed in 1996 just before tony blair was elected. and the interviewer, bbc interviewer i think it was, said to her, but mrs. thatcher, why don't you like this young man, tony blair? he has copied everything you've ever done and he's adopted completely your ideology. he said, yeah, this was my greatest success in my career because... he turned the labour party into a version of the tory party. and then she continued and said, but if you're going to vote for the tory party, why not vote for the actual one? and this is why, you know, the center-left loses time after time after time. so bernie sanders, i mean, i understand why if you are in the labour party now, you're john macdonald, you haven't been thrown out yet as jeremy was. why are you not going against the grain of the? full first past the post system, which will condemn you to effectively ruin, even if you get 20% of the people. this is the tragedy of the electoral system. i can understand that, but bernie in 2016, he had 900,000 volunteers. and a lot of money that was collected. the nomination was stolen from him, just stolen from him, in a criminal fashion by the dnc and hillary clinton. and he comes out and supports hillary clinton. that was a mistake.
young people cannot afford to buy a house or to rent a house. 80% deep down, they will say, of course, nuclear submarines are a waste of time, especially if we don't have the keys to them. one question after the other, our positions are majoritarian, and yet the center-left parties never adopt them. never adopt them. and that's where trump. that if they become like the right but right that is light, you know, racist light, pro-capitalist light, that it doesn't work. and margaret thatcher was the one that answered the question because i remember she was being interviewed in 1996 just before tony blair was elected. and the interviewer, bbc interviewer i think it was, said to her, but mrs. thatcher, why don't you like this young man, tony blair? he has copied everything you've ever done and he's adopted completely your ideology. he said, yeah, this was my greatest success in my career because... he turned the labour party into a version of the tory party. and then she continued and said, but if you're going to vote for the tory party, why not vote for the actual one? and this is why, you know, the center-left loses time after time after time. so bernie sanders, i mean, i understand why if you are in the labour party now, you're john macdonald, you haven't been thrown out yet as jeremy was. why are you not going against the grain of the? full first past the post system, which will condemn you to effectively ruin, even if you get 20% of the people. this is the tragedy of the electoral system. i can understand that, but bernie in 2016, he had 900,000 volunteers. and a lot of money that was collected. the nomination was stolen from him, just stolen from him, in a criminal fashion by the dnc and hillary clinton. and he comes out and supports hillary clinton. that was a mistake.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, because he still again thought you know, like in one of my books, i hope you will agree with the metaphor, i in one of my... books i said trump is not just a bad guy, obviously, but he is literally, in freudian sense, a fetish figure. you know, this notion of fetish in freud, which may appear too simple, but it's more complex. let's drop this, where he says, fet is in principle the last thing you see. before seeing castration. no that's why it's hair or feet or whatever before the guy undresses. okay, let's not go into what freud meant by this. what i want to say is that for this new pseudo. welfare, politically correct, radical center. trump is the last thing they see before they would see class struggle, social antagonism. that's why they need this demonization of trump. now, i'm not against demonizing trump, but would you agree or not? we should never.
yeah, because he still again thought you know, like in one of my books, i hope you will agree with the metaphor, i in one of my... books i said trump is not just a bad guy, obviously, but he is literally, in freudian sense, a fetish figure. you know, this notion of fetish in freud, which may appear too simple, but it's more complex. let's drop this, where he says, fet is in principle the last thing you see. before seeing castration. no that's why it's hair or feet or whatever before the guy undresses. okay, let's not go into what freud meant by this. what i want to say is that for this new pseudo. welfare, politically correct, radical center. trump is the last thing they see before they would see class struggle, social antagonism. that's why they need this demonization of trump. now, i'm not against demonizing trump, but would you agree or not? we should never.
Yanis Varoufakis
for demonizing trump.
for demonizing trump.
Slavoj Žižek
sorry!
sorry!
Yanis Varoufakis
i am against demonizing trump. trump is such a poor excuse for human nature that you do not need to demonize him. you just talk. bluntly about the fact that he's making promises to the dispossessed. you see, what he's very good at at the Lacanian level, whatever, he connects with people. he tells them, i feel your pain. there is carnage in america. you have been fucked by this elite. which is true, it is true. and he makes promises which he never intends to see through. he takes the ceo of goldman sachs and makes him treasury secretary. he takes all the bastards from the real estate sector and makes him responsible for housing. he takes kennedy and makes him responsible for health. so that why do you need to demonize him? just say that. no, but what i want to say
i am against demonizing trump. trump is such a poor excuse for human nature that you do not need to demonize him. you just talk. bluntly about the fact that he's making promises to the dispossessed. you see, what he's very good at at the Lacanian level, whatever, he connects with people. he tells them, i feel your pain. there is carnage in america. you have been fucked by this elite. which is true, it is true. and he makes promises which he never intends to see through. he takes the ceo of goldman sachs and makes him treasury secretary. he takes all the bastards from the real estate sector and makes him responsible for housing. he takes kennedy and makes him responsible for health. so that why do you need to demonize him? just say that. no, but what i want to say
Slavoj Žižek
democrats agree because they are the ones.
democrats agree because they are the ones.
Yanis Varoufakis
what part.
what part.
Slavoj Žižek
of completely destroying 60% of the american population. yeah, so again, i totally agree. that's my point what you said now. it's that we should never forget, while of course... fighting trump together with whomever when he will infringe on lgbt women's rights and so on that. trump is a symptom of the failure of this radical. is a symptom of obama. yes! he was a creator.
of completely destroying 60% of the american population. yeah, so again, i totally agree. that's my point what you said now. it's that we should never forget, while of course... fighting trump together with whomever when he will infringe on lgbt women's rights and so on that. trump is a symptom of the failure of this radical. is a symptom of obama. yes! he was a creator.
Yanis Varoufakis
of obama. remember, obama was elected at the height or the depth of the worst capitalist crisis since 1929. so you had the bankers who had absolutely wrecked the lives of millions of americans. and he gets up there and says, yes we can. yes we can do what? punish the wall street. bastards who created the circumstances of the gloom and doom of
of obama. remember, obama was elected at the height or the depth of the worst capitalist crisis since 1929. so you had the bankers who had absolutely wrecked the lives of millions of americans. and he gets up there and says, yes we can. yes we can do what? punish the wall street. bastards who created the circumstances of the gloom and doom of
Slavoj Žižek
the.
the.
Yanis Varoufakis
people and here in the united kingdom and in europe and so on, and support the victims of this crisis. and what does he do? he takes larry summers and tim geithner, the the two men that bill clinton had appointed to unleash the toxic powers, the demonic powers of wall street upon the american people, and he makes them responsible for two things, bailing out the bankers. and and also imposing austerity on the people who voted for him. the
people and here in the united kingdom and in europe and so on, and support the victims of this crisis. and what does he do? he takes larry summers and tim geithner, the the two men that bill clinton had appointed to unleash the toxic powers, the demonic powers of wall street upon the american people, and he makes them responsible for two things, bailing out the bankers. and and also imposing austerity on the people who voted for him. the
Slavoj Žižek
is is trump? and you know, yeah, absolutely. and you know what's the irony here? cruel irony that, you know, all this just focusing on trump, horror, deportation of immigrants, but look at the numbers under obama's rule. there were more deportations, less done more discreetly.
is is trump? and you know, yeah, absolutely. and you know what's the irony here? cruel irony that, you know, all this just focusing on trump, horror, deportation of immigrants, but look at the numbers under obama's rule. there were more deportations, less done more discreetly.
Yanis Varoufakis
we
we
Slavoj Žižek
and.
and.
Yanis Varoufakis
obama was deporting the parents of american citizens, of children whose parents were american citizens. that's what obama was doing. i mean, even now, biden has created more draconian conditions at the wall separating america from mexico than they were under trump.
obama was deporting the parents of american citizens, of children whose parents were american citizens. that's what obama was doing. i mean, even now, biden has created more draconian conditions at the wall separating america from mexico than they were under trump.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah. okay, now i ask you a provocative, i don provocative question in the sense that how should i reply some of my friends who will join you in gulag, although i don't agree with them, who say, but nonetheless, didn't biden, like the first president who went to support auto workers strike,, didn't he nonetheless in economy did some not so bad things in economy? or i want to reply. to you so that i can answer my critics. absolutely.
yeah. okay, now i ask you a provocative, i don provocative question in the sense that how should i reply some of my friends who will join you in gulag, although i don't agree with them, who say, but nonetheless, didn't biden, like the first president who went to support auto workers strike,, didn't he nonetheless in economy did some not so bad things in economy? or i want to reply. to you so that i can answer my critics. absolutely.
Yanis Varoufakis
he did. he did some interesting things. thanks.
he did. he did some interesting things. thanks.
Slavoj Žižek
but they were for
but they were for
Yanis Varoufakis
show. they were not.
show. they were not.
Slavoj Žižek
theception.
theception.
Yanis Varoufakis
. he did. i mean, symbolically it was important to go and join the picket line at the auto workers strike. i saluted that. but what was his policies regarding industry? where were his policies regarding the vast number of people who, as i said before, once they fall ill, they go bankrupt and they simply are annihilated nothing. he was always in the pocket of the pharmaceutical industry, of the medical industrial economy. he always bent over backwards to accommodate the needs of the rentiers, of the financiers. when it comes to making a choice between the two sides. look, i understand. i wish both of them had lost. abs absolutely, right. i wish both of them had lost. i would not have voted for either of them. i do not condone anyone who says that because kamala harris says x, y, z and so on, i'm going to vote for trump. there's always jill stein. there's always abstention where you can express yourself. and there is always political activism to create an alternative. but. especially in 2016, you and i were on different camps. you don't remember that.
. he did. i mean, symbolically it was important to go and join the picket line at the auto workers strike. i saluted that. but what was his policies regarding industry? where were his policies regarding the vast number of people who, as i said before, once they fall ill, they go bankrupt and they simply are annihilated nothing. he was always in the pocket of the pharmaceutical industry, of the medical industrial economy. he always bent over backwards to accommodate the needs of the rentiers, of the financiers. when it comes to making a choice between the two sides. look, i understand. i wish both of them had lost. abs absolutely, right. i wish both of them had lost. i would not have voted for either of them. i do not condone anyone who says that because kamala harris says x, y, z and so on, i'm going to vote for trump. there's always jill stein. there's always abstention where you can express yourself. and there is always political activism to create an alternative. but. especially in 2016, you and i were on different camps. you don't remember that.
Slavoj Žižek
we.
we.
Yanis Varoufakis
i. with regard to the american election, because you were saying, you vote for trump. you had said it once
i. with regard to the american election, because you were saying, you vote for trump. you had said it once
Slavoj Žižek
yes.
yes.
Yanis Varoufakis
yeah.
yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
wait.
wait.
Yanis Varoufakis
i still think i was right, but that's another point.
i still think i was right, but that's another point.
Slavoj Žižek
can explain yeah.
can explain yeah.
Yanis Varoufakis
maybe. but noam chomsky and i were on stage at the new york public library and somebody asked us and we said, both of them, we were not coordinated, we said, if you are in a safe seat, in a safe constituency, vote for jill stein, vote for the third party. but if you are in a swing state, hold your nose like that and vote for clinton so as to avoid a trump presidency. this but now, absolutely i agree 2024 election, my point was genocide joe. the joe biden and the kamala harris who looked at the american people who were struggling and demanded of them that they celebrate the great economy. they were telling me, you're wrong. inflation is finished. why are you complaining? you're fools. whereas trump was saying, i feel your pain. now at that point i think the radical position and the democratic position and the ethical position and the dialectical position
maybe. but noam chomsky and i were on stage at the new york public library and somebody asked us and we said, both of them, we were not coordinated, we said, if you are in a safe seat, in a safe constituency, vote for jill stein, vote for the third party. but if you are in a swing state, hold your nose like that and vote for clinton so as to avoid a trump presidency. this but now, absolutely i agree 2024 election, my point was genocide joe. the joe biden and the kamala harris who looked at the american people who were struggling and demanded of them that they celebrate the great economy. they were telling me, you're wrong. inflation is finished. why are you complaining? you're fools. whereas trump was saying, i feel your pain. now at that point i think the radical position and the democratic position and the ethical position and the dialectical position
Slavoj Žižek
to to say neither nor. no, i totally agree with you and you know whom you quote here. it's not meant only by irony. from time to time. i'm not a stalin story.alin from time to time, he's not a stalinist. yeah, stalin produced a nice paradox. you know, when in late 20s he was asked. which deviation is worse, rightist or left? he said, not both are equally bad, but they are both worse. and that should be. kamala and trump, they are both worse. so it's where maybe, you know where i oscillated. now we are not attacking each other, but i sincerely want party guidelines for you. many people with whom i had contact there. said said, okay, but at an ordinary daily level, if trump wins, we will be deprived of abortion, more racism and so on. so nonetheless, should be that's one of the arguments.
to to say neither nor. no, i totally agree with you and you know whom you quote here. it's not meant only by irony. from time to time. i'm not a stalin story.alin from time to time, he's not a stalinist. yeah, stalin produced a nice paradox. you know, when in late 20s he was asked. which deviation is worse, rightist or left? he said, not both are equally bad, but they are both worse. and that should be. kamala and trump, they are both worse. so it's where maybe, you know where i oscillated. now we are not attacking each other, but i sincerely want party guidelines for you. many people with whom i had contact there. said said, okay, but at an ordinary daily level, if trump wins, we will be deprived of abortion, more racism and so on. so nonetheless, should be that's one of the arguments.
Yanis Varoufakis
of abortion. question i have enormous empathy for every woman of reproductive age. states because the removal of basic human rights for women under that supreme court and under the trump administration is a major defeat for humanity. there's no doubt about that. there's no doubt about that. we cannot think on a single issue kamala harris, in my view, because she simply would not be in control of her.
of abortion. question i have enormous empathy for every woman of reproductive age. states because the removal of basic human rights for women under that supreme court and under the trump administration is a major defeat for humanity. there's no doubt about that. there's no doubt about that. we cannot think on a single issue kamala harris, in my view, because she simply would not be in control of her.
Slavoj Žižek
that.
that.
Yanis Varoufakis
be the neocons behind would be a clear and present threat to world peace. the democrats, they have never seen the people who are amongst the cabal that is ruling the democratic party now, and the neocons, you know, all the chains and the wolf have moved from the republican party and were the democratic party. these people have never seen a war they don't like. and... i very much fear, however mad and sad and bad trump is, that under the democrats, the rest of the world would be in much greater peril under the democrats.
be the neocons behind would be a clear and present threat to world peace. the democrats, they have never seen the people who are amongst the cabal that is ruling the democratic party now, and the neocons, you know, all the chains and the wolf have moved from the republican party and were the democratic party. these people have never seen a war they don't like. and... i very much fear, however mad and sad and bad trump is, that under the democrats, the rest of the world would be in much greater peril under the democrats.
Slavoj Žižek
i tend to agree with you and i will give you a proof. in whatever way we can make fun of trump and so on, but sorry, although it failed, by simply contacting kim jong-un, north korea. the tension was eased. trump did a surprising thing. you remember when there was tension in korea, the true madman, who is now, of course, on democratic side, john bolton, of course, we sent 200000 and trump fired him.
i tend to agree with you and i will give you a proof. in whatever way we can make fun of trump and so on, but sorry, although it failed, by simply contacting kim jong-un, north korea. the tension was eased. trump did a surprising thing. you remember when there was tension in korea, the true madman, who is now, of course, on democratic side, john bolton, of course, we sent 200000 and trump fired him.
Yanis Varoufakis
no, i don't want world war and so on. not only that, he stopped the us air force. the planes were in the sky about to bomb iran. and trump woke up in the middle of the night and stopped that. my great fear is that he may not prevent a clash between the united states armed forces and the chinese ones. because the whole of the american system, even those who disagree with the prosecution of the ukrainian war, even those disagree with the continuing genocide in palestine, by the way, it is remiss of us not to have mentioned the genocide in palestine which is unfolding as we speak with whole people being pulverized. even those people. they are gangung-ho about a possible confrontation, even a military one with china. and that is completely bipartisan in the united states. that's a clear and present danger. let me. because
no, i don't want world war and so on. not only that, he stopped the us air force. the planes were in the sky about to bomb iran. and trump woke up in the middle of the night and stopped that. my great fear is that he may not prevent a clash between the united states armed forces and the chinese ones. because the whole of the american system, even those who disagree with the prosecution of the ukrainian war, even those disagree with the continuing genocide in palestine, by the way, it is remiss of us not to have mentioned the genocide in palestine which is unfolding as we speak with whole people being pulverized. even those people. they are gangung-ho about a possible confrontation, even a military one with china. and that is completely bipartisan in the united states. that's a clear and present danger. let me. because
Slavoj Žižek
no i wanted to go into listen, a slight this will interest you i'm sorry i am trying in a very friendly way, we can talk normally, to bring out a possible, not even difference, but you know, okay, i'll put it like this. i was once in japan and i was told if you don't agree with a guy, how do you say it there? and i was told, probably a lie, that the polite japanese way is to say i totally agree with you, i would just maybe put a slightly different accent which i will say now and tell you but you know why maybe we made some different formulations, although i paid my price for supporting palestinians that frankfurt book fair not as heavy price as you, but i'm also now absent from the media in germany. aj.
no i wanted to go into listen, a slight this will interest you i'm sorry i am trying in a very friendly way, we can talk normally, to bring out a possible, not even difference, but you know, okay, i'll put it like this. i was once in japan and i was told if you don't agree with a guy, how do you say it there? and i was told, probably a lie, that the polite japanese way is to say i totally agree with you, i would just maybe put a slightly different accent which i will say now and tell you but you know why maybe we made some different formulations, although i paid my price for supporting palestinians that frankfurt book fair not as heavy price as you, but i'm also now absent from the media in germany. aj.
Yanis Varoufakis
of honor.
of honor.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah. yeah, but... look... you... i am... not in contrast to you, maybe, i'm not sure. critical of hamas from this standard liberal position. so on. my problem is this one. i see definitely here israel, now it's becoming absolutely clear the main culprit and this war absolutely unconditionally served israel. israel literally needed this war. here i draw a parallel, would you agree between israel and iran. in both countries, we have the same problem. do you remember, it's absolutely clear to remember it, do you remember what happened in iran a year before this crisis? mahsa amini, that kurdish woman killed and then this triggered a feminist movement much more authentic and radical than all the western
yeah. yeah, but... look... you... i am... not in contrast to you, maybe, i'm not sure. critical of hamas from this standard liberal position. so on. my problem is this one. i see definitely here israel, now it's becoming absolutely clear the main culprit and this war absolutely unconditionally served israel. israel literally needed this war. here i draw a parallel, would you agree between israel and iran. in both countries, we have the same problem. do you remember, it's absolutely clear to remember it, do you remember what happened in iran a year before this crisis? mahsa amini, that kurdish woman killed and then this triggered a feminist movement much more authentic and radical than all the western
Co-Discussant
i.
i.
Slavoj Žižek
polit.
polit.
Co-Discussant
correct.
correct.
Slavoj Žižek
because it triggered a general movement. all the kurds joined it, ordinary iranians joined it. and as my friends told me there, i have strange connections everywhere in iran, that it was clear that iranian nomenclatura needed also a new tension with, not a war like now, but with israel to control the situation. but wait a minute. the same goes for... israel. remember what went on in israel just a couple of months before october attack. hundreds of thousands of people, mega demonstration against netanyahu attempt to take over supreme court and so on and so on. they
because it triggered a general movement. all the kurds joined it, ordinary iranians joined it. and as my friends told me there, i have strange connections everywhere in iran, that it was clear that iranian nomenclatura needed also a new tension with, not a war like now, but with israel to control the situation. but wait a minute. the same goes for... israel. remember what went on in israel just a couple of months before october attack. hundreds of thousands of people, mega demonstration against netanyahu attempt to take over supreme court and so on and so on. they
Co-Discussant
they needed this war.
they needed this war.
Slavoj Žižek
deck
deck