WikiLeaks' Julian Assange & Philosopher Slavoj Zizek In Conversation With Amy Goodman 3 of 9
Lecture · Democracy Now! ·
published 2011-07-05 · 0:14:14 · 2,040 words
with Julian Assange
the date above is when the video was uploaded, no recording date was found
ideologyliberalism-political-correctnessgeopolitics-warcinema-art-culture
Žižek argues that liberal media and cinema offer an uplifting but false sense of agency, whereas conservative or pessimistic narratives (like 24) more honestly confront the deadlock of the existing system. He cites Marx’s preference for honest conservatives and uses the Chinese ban on time-travel media as evidence of the ruling ideology's fear of imagining alternatives. He concludes by condemning Newt Gingrich’s moral hypocrisy and redefining Julian Assange and WikiLeaks as 'terrorists' in the positive, Gandhi-like sense of disrupting the status quo.
every located moment in this recording, click one to read it
The ideas in it 4
in the order they first come up; click a row for what he does with the idea here
as “liberal pseudo-Hollywood Marxism”
A category of critical films that appear to expose corruption but ultimately reinforce the ideology by celebrating the system's ability to self-correct.
Conservatives who do not sell 'uplifting bullshit' but are willing to confront the deadlock of the system, a trait Žižek claims Marx valued.
as “spontaneous everyday ideology”
The unprohibited, accepted acceptance of current economic realities (like lack of healthcare) which functions as a more effective ideological control than explicit bans.
A positive redefinition of 'terrorist' applied to figures like Assange who disrupt the smooth functioning of the global order, akin to Gandhi's disruptive role.
Stories he reaches for 2
Reports that Chinese authorities banned stories involving time travel or alternate realities, arguing this proves the regime fears people imagining alternatives to the current reality.
“The official justification was that history is a great matter it shouldn't be left to such trifling games... But of course it’s clear what they really are afraid of.”
Contrasts liberal thrillers like All the President's Men (which leave the audience feeling good about the country) with the TV show 24 (where Jack Bauer admits the system is broken and steps down), arguing the latter is more honest about the deadlock.
“Why do you exit the movie theater in such high spirits... Because the message is nonetheless look what a great country we are.”
Works invoked 4
The Pelican Brief film
Cited as an example of 'liberal pseudo-Hollywood Marxism' that leaves the audience with high spirits and a false sense of the country's greatness.
Cited as an example of 'liberal pseudo-Hollywood Marxism' that reinforces ideology by suggesting an ordinary guy can topple the mighty, leaving the viewer uplifted.
24 tv
Cited for its 'pessimistic message' and honesty about the deadlock of the politico-ethical coordinates, specifically the final season where Jack Bauer steps down.
There Will Be Blood film
Mentioned in a pun/joke about the amount of blood between the speaker and the interlocutor.
People invoked 7
Mentioned in the context of the Monica Lewinsky campaign; Žižek states he has no great sympathy for him but uses him as a foil for Gingrich's hypocrisy.
Mahatma Gandhi positive
Used as the archetype of a 'terrorist' in the positive sense, someone who disrupts the established order.
Newt Gingrich negative
Described as 'scum of the earth' due to his moral hypocrisy regarding the Lewinsky affair and his treatment of his dying wife.
Mentioned in a joke about media denial; Žižek claims he doesn't even listen to her songs.
Jack Bauer positive
Character from 24 used to illustrate a 'pessimistic message' that is more honest than liberal narratives, where the hero admits the system is a deadlock.
Julian Assange positive
Žižek agrees with the interlocutor that Assange is engaged in 'terrorism' in the positive, disruptive sense, and defends him against being treated merely as an enemy combatant.
Karl Marx positive
Cited for the claim that we can learn more from 'honest conservatives' than from liberals.
Transcript 16 turns
Julian Assange
I cannot
I cannot
Slavoj Žižek
emphasize enough like first I treated you not as an idiot out of politeness but then I’m more and more forced to admit that you really are not an idiot. Sorry for this you know it happens no? Because seriously I mean what you said now is extremely important. With all the respect I have for and I don’t mean this in any way ironically honest liberals who really believe that people should be informed and so on. But there are limits in their very mode how they function so we should ruthlessly not in an unethical way but nonetheless ruthlessly use as you pointed out in this difference between CNN and Fox every every window of opportunity here. And let me add another example from a totally different domain but from fiction cinema TV series which I think reproduces the same duality. We have the usual Hollywood left all this all this for to raise our spirit left liberal pseudo-Hollywood Marxism thrillers like Pelican Brief All the President's Men which may appear very critical you know like oh my God the president himself is corrupted connected to certain corporation and so on but nonetheless this is ideology. Why? Because why do you exit the movie theater in such high spirits after seeing I don’t know All the President’s Men and so on? Because the message is nonetheless look what a great country we are. An ordinary guy can topple the mightiest man in the world and so on and so on. On the other hand let me take an equivalent in TV program of Fox News which would have been please don’t take me for being crazy Yeah yeah Jack Bauer and all that. The last season of I watched it with pleasure is for me my God again as you approach it the way you approach those shots it’s for me much more consequential in criticism. You get Jack Bauer who is in total despair his whole world crumbles down he has to admit this way what he tried to do in previous seasons of playing this role of somebody should do the dirty job torture the prisoners I will do it. He says no I cannot live with it it has to come public. His liberal counterpart called Allison Taylor the president also steps down. You know what's the true message of it? The message is simply within the existing politico-ethical coordinates you are just stuck into a deadlock there is no way. It’s a very pessimistic message much more honest than on that all that uplifting Hollywood Marxism what a great country we are and so on and so on. So yes at all levels even not only at in journalism as such I agree with you and I would even say that all leftist tradition knows this. For example already Marx said I’m no fetishist of Marx but nonetheless he said that we can often learn more from honest conservatives than from liberals. Because what honest conservatives do is that they don’t try to sell you at the end some uplifting bullshit. They are ready to confront a deadlock. And that’s what's important today. I don’t want to look distracted looking down but I wanted to get these quotes accurate so I have them on my phone. Nothing threatening
emphasize enough like first I treated you not as an idiot out of politeness but then I’m more and more forced to admit that you really are not an idiot. Sorry for this you know it happens no? Because seriously I mean what you said now is extremely important. With all the respect I have for and I don’t mean this in any way ironically honest liberals who really believe that people should be informed and so on. But there are limits in their very mode how they function so we should ruthlessly not in an unethical way but nonetheless ruthlessly use as you pointed out in this difference between CNN and Fox every every window of opportunity here. And let me add another example from a totally different domain but from fiction cinema TV series which I think reproduces the same duality. We have the usual Hollywood left all this all this for to raise our spirit left liberal pseudo-Hollywood Marxism thrillers like Pelican Brief All the President's Men which may appear very critical you know like oh my God the president himself is corrupted connected to certain corporation and so on but nonetheless this is ideology. Why? Because why do you exit the movie theater in such high spirits after seeing I don’t know All the President’s Men and so on? Because the message is nonetheless look what a great country we are. An ordinary guy can topple the mightiest man in the world and so on and so on. On the other hand let me take an equivalent in TV program of Fox News which would have been please don’t take me for being crazy Yeah yeah Jack Bauer and all that. The last season of I watched it with pleasure is for me my God again as you approach it the way you approach those shots it’s for me much more consequential in criticism. You get Jack Bauer who is in total despair his whole world crumbles down he has to admit this way what he tried to do in previous seasons of playing this role of somebody should do the dirty job torture the prisoners I will do it. He says no I cannot live with it it has to come public. His liberal counterpart called Allison Taylor the president also steps down. You know what's the true message of it? The message is simply within the existing politico-ethical coordinates you are just stuck into a deadlock there is no way. It’s a very pessimistic message much more honest than on that all that uplifting Hollywood Marxism what a great country we are and so on and so on. So yes at all levels even not only at in journalism as such I agree with you and I would even say that all leftist tradition knows this. For example already Marx said I’m no fetishist of Marx but nonetheless he said that we can often learn more from honest conservatives than from liberals. Because what honest conservatives do is that they don’t try to sell you at the end some uplifting bullshit. They are ready to confront a deadlock. And that’s what's important today. I don’t want to look distracted looking down but I wanted to get these quotes accurate so I have them on my phone. Nothing threatening
unknown
I just feel better. Yes. Newt Gingrich the former Speaker of the House in the United States said Julian Assange is engaged in warfare. Information terrorism which leads to
I just feel better. Yes. Newt Gingrich the former Speaker of the House in the United States said Julian Assange is engaged in warfare. Information terrorism which leads to
Slavoj Žižek
people getting killed is terrorism and Julian Assange is engaged in terrorism he should be treated as an enemy combatant and WikiLeaks should be
people getting killed is terrorism and Julian Assange is engaged in terrorism he should be treated as an enemy combatant and WikiLeaks should be
unknown
closed down permanently and decisively. Bill Keller of the New York Times said arrogant thin-skinned conspiratorial. Judith Miller who together who often wrote or co-wrote articles that appeared on the front page of the New York Times alleging weapons of mass
closed down permanently and decisively. Bill Keller of the New York Times said arrogant thin-skinned conspiratorial. Judith Miller who together who often wrote or co-wrote articles that appeared on the front page of the New York Times alleging weapons of mass
unknown
destruction without named sources said Julian Assange isn't a good journalist. Didn't care at all about attempting to verify the information he was putting out or determine whether or not it would hurt anyone. Joe Biden the Vice President of the United States said Julian Assange is a high-tech terrorist. Congressman Peter King of New York called for Assange to be charged under the Espionage Act and asked whether WikiLeaks can be designated a terrorist organization. Not to just focus on the U.S. Tom Flanagan a former aide to the Canadian Prime Minister has called for Assange's assassination. And former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin called
destruction without named sources said Julian Assange isn't a good journalist. Didn't care at all about attempting to verify the information he was putting out or determine whether or not it would hurt anyone. Joe Biden the Vice President of the United States said Julian Assange is a high-tech terrorist. Congressman Peter King of New York called for Assange to be charged under the Espionage Act and asked whether WikiLeaks can be designated a terrorist organization. Not to just focus on the U.S. Tom Flanagan a former aide to the Canadian Prime Minister has called for Assange's assassination. And former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin called
Slavoj Žižek
What an interesting person I first heard about her.
What an interesting person I first heard about her.
unknown
Called you Julian an anti-American operative with blood on your hands. Can you respond to these charges?
Called you Julian an anti-American operative with blood on your hands. Can you respond to these charges?
Julian Assange
Well you know after Bill Keller said that I was thin-skinned it doesn't really leave much ground to reply does it? Sarah Palin also once on Twitter complained about my grammar. Which is really the biggest insult for me I mean calling for a drone attack is perfectly understandable but correcting my grammar from Sarah Palin that’s a real insult. That event in the United States was very interesting to me. I mean obviously the calls are are wrong and outrageous and so on but the social and political event in which they occurred was was fascinating. So within a few months we saw a new McCarthyist hysteria arise within the United States in December and January. January this year December last year. And that is quite worrying that a new McCarthyism can come up so quickly. On the other hand yes there are a lot of opportunistic politicians playing to their base playing to their pals in the military industrial complex. On the other hand you know power that is completely unaccountable is silent. So when when you walk past a group of ants on the street and you accidentally crush a few you do not turn to the others and say stop complaining or I’ll put a drone strike on your head. You completely ignore them. And that is what happens to power that’s in a very dominant position. It does not even bother to respond. It doesn’t flinch for an instant. Yet we saw all these figures in the United States coming out and speaking very aggressively. Bill Keller in a recent talk as a way of sort of perhaps legitimizing why he was speaking about me said that if you have a dealing with Julian Assange you are fated to sit on panels for the rest of your life explaining what you did. But actually no that’s a choice by Bill Keller. A choice to go around and try and twist history and whitewash history and adjust history on a constant basis. Why? Why expend the energy doing that? Why not just knock off another front page of the New York Times? Because actually these people are frightened of the true part of history coming up and coming forth. So I see this as a very positive sign and I stated before that we should always see censorship actually as a very positive sign and the attempts towards censorship as a sign that the society is not yet completely sewn up not yet completely fiscalized but still has some political dimension to it. I.e. what people believe and think and feel and the words that they listen to actually matter. Because in some areas it doesn't matter and in the United States actually most of the time it doesn't matter what you say. We managed to to speak and give information at such volume and of such intensity that people actually were forced to respond. It is rare that they are forced to respond. So I think this is the one of the first positive symptoms I've seen from the United States in a while that actually if you speak at this level the cage can be rattled a bit and people can be forced to respond. In China the censorship is much more aggressive which to me is a very hopeful symptom for China that it is still a political society even though it is fiscalizing even though everything is being sewn up in contractual relations and banking relations as time has gone by. At the moment the Chinese government and public security bureau are actually scared of what people think.
Well you know after Bill Keller said that I was thin-skinned it doesn't really leave much ground to reply does it? Sarah Palin also once on Twitter complained about my grammar. Which is really the biggest insult for me I mean calling for a drone attack is perfectly understandable but correcting my grammar from Sarah Palin that’s a real insult. That event in the United States was very interesting to me. I mean obviously the calls are are wrong and outrageous and so on but the social and political event in which they occurred was was fascinating. So within a few months we saw a new McCarthyist hysteria arise within the United States in December and January. January this year December last year. And that is quite worrying that a new McCarthyism can come up so quickly. On the other hand yes there are a lot of opportunistic politicians playing to their base playing to their pals in the military industrial complex. On the other hand you know power that is completely unaccountable is silent. So when when you walk past a group of ants on the street and you accidentally crush a few you do not turn to the others and say stop complaining or I’ll put a drone strike on your head. You completely ignore them. And that is what happens to power that’s in a very dominant position. It does not even bother to respond. It doesn’t flinch for an instant. Yet we saw all these figures in the United States coming out and speaking very aggressively. Bill Keller in a recent talk as a way of sort of perhaps legitimizing why he was speaking about me said that if you have a dealing with Julian Assange you are fated to sit on panels for the rest of your life explaining what you did. But actually no that’s a choice by Bill Keller. A choice to go around and try and twist history and whitewash history and adjust history on a constant basis. Why? Why expend the energy doing that? Why not just knock off another front page of the New York Times? Because actually these people are frightened of the true part of history coming up and coming forth. So I see this as a very positive sign and I stated before that we should always see censorship actually as a very positive sign and the attempts towards censorship as a sign that the society is not yet completely sewn up not yet completely fiscalized but still has some political dimension to it. I.e. what people believe and think and feel and the words that they listen to actually matter. Because in some areas it doesn't matter and in the United States actually most of the time it doesn't matter what you say. We managed to to speak and give information at such volume and of such intensity that people actually were forced to respond. It is rare that they are forced to respond. So I think this is the one of the first positive symptoms I've seen from the United States in a while that actually if you speak at this level the cage can be rattled a bit and people can be forced to respond. In China the censorship is much more aggressive which to me is a very hopeful symptom for China that it is still a political society even though it is fiscalizing even though everything is being sewn up in contractual relations and banking relations as time has gone by. At the moment the Chinese government and public security bureau are actually scared of what people think.
Slavoj Žižek
Can I just add something?
Can I just add something?
Julian Assange
Again I hate myself because I
Again I hate myself because I
Slavoj Žižek
wanted what is that movie called There Will Be Blood no? But unfortunately there will not be a lot of blood between the two of us because I again agree. Speaking about China let me tell you maybe you know it a wonderful it’s not an anecdote which perfectly makes confirms your point. Do you know that about two or three months ago a Chinese government I don’t know which agency passed a law which formally prohibits in public media they mean press books comics TV movies all stories which deal with time travel or alternate realities. Literally. I checked it up with my friends in China. The official justification was that history is a great matter it shouldn't be left to such trifling games and so on. But of course it’s clear what they really are afraid of. For people to even imagine alternate realities other possibilities. Now again to repeat your point I think this is a good sign. They at least need the prohibition. With us we don’t need a prohibition most of the time. If somebody proposes a radical change we simply accept this spontaneous everyday ideology but we all know what economic realities are like. You propose to raise for one percent healthcare spending no it would mean it would mean loss of competition and so on and so on. So again I totally agree with you here. And just a final comment on the persons that you Amy mentioned. Listen Newt Gingrich is for me sorry to use this strong word scum of the earth. I don’t have any great no no no I will be very precise. I don’t have any great sympathy for Bill Clinton. But I remember when there was this campaign Monica Lewinsky campaign Newt Gingrich was making all these moralistic attacks. And then it was confirmed in media I listened to an interview with him where he confirmed it that when his wife was dying in cancer two or three years before Newt Gingrich visited her in a hospital forcing her to sign not even having the decency for letting her die forcing her to sign a divorce agreement so that he could have married another woman. And he was at the exact time of of Lewinsky affair already cheating her with a secretary of him there and so on and so on. Listen these are people who simply my God I become here a kind of a moral conservative. There should be some kind of ethical committee which simply claims people like this are a threat to our youth they should be prohibited from appearing in public whatever. Now I will make a more important point as to this terrorism stuff. Let me make it clear but I’m not crazy I mean this in a positive sense. Yes in a way you are terrorist. In which sense? In the sense in which as I like to repeat Gandhi was a terrorist. What you are doing let’s face the facts it’s not just something that can be swallowed oh look all the interesting news in the newspapers here this is happening there Slavoj Žižek is dating Lady Gaga and here... Totally not true. And here there’s WikiLeaks. You effectively have in a good sense... We have a denial there on that one? Sorry? We
wanted what is that movie called There Will Be Blood no? But unfortunately there will not be a lot of blood between the two of us because I again agree. Speaking about China let me tell you maybe you know it a wonderful it’s not an anecdote which perfectly makes confirms your point. Do you know that about two or three months ago a Chinese government I don’t know which agency passed a law which formally prohibits in public media they mean press books comics TV movies all stories which deal with time travel or alternate realities. Literally. I checked it up with my friends in China. The official justification was that history is a great matter it shouldn't be left to such trifling games and so on. But of course it’s clear what they really are afraid of. For people to even imagine alternate realities other possibilities. Now again to repeat your point I think this is a good sign. They at least need the prohibition. With us we don’t need a prohibition most of the time. If somebody proposes a radical change we simply accept this spontaneous everyday ideology but we all know what economic realities are like. You propose to raise for one percent healthcare spending no it would mean it would mean loss of competition and so on and so on. So again I totally agree with you here. And just a final comment on the persons that you Amy mentioned. Listen Newt Gingrich is for me sorry to use this strong word scum of the earth. I don’t have any great no no no I will be very precise. I don’t have any great sympathy for Bill Clinton. But I remember when there was this campaign Monica Lewinsky campaign Newt Gingrich was making all these moralistic attacks. And then it was confirmed in media I listened to an interview with him where he confirmed it that when his wife was dying in cancer two or three years before Newt Gingrich visited her in a hospital forcing her to sign not even having the decency for letting her die forcing her to sign a divorce agreement so that he could have married another woman. And he was at the exact time of of Lewinsky affair already cheating her with a secretary of him there and so on and so on. Listen these are people who simply my God I become here a kind of a moral conservative. There should be some kind of ethical committee which simply claims people like this are a threat to our youth they should be prohibited from appearing in public whatever. Now I will make a more important point as to this terrorism stuff. Let me make it clear but I’m not crazy I mean this in a positive sense. Yes in a way you are terrorist. In which sense? In the sense in which as I like to repeat Gandhi was a terrorist. What you are doing let’s face the facts it’s not just something that can be swallowed oh look all the interesting news in the newspapers here this is happening there Slavoj Žižek is dating Lady Gaga and here... Totally not true. And here there’s WikiLeaks. You effectively have in a good sense... We have a denial there on that one? Sorry? We
unknown
have a denial an official denial on the Lady Gaga one?
have a denial an official denial on the Lady Gaga one?
Slavoj Žižek
Absolute denial on everything. I mean everything. I didn’t even listen to not even one of her songs and so on I mean my God I listen to Schubert and Schumann songs I’m sorry I’m a conservative.
Absolute denial on everything. I mean everything. I didn’t even listen to not even one of her songs and so on I mean my God I listen to Schubert and Schumann songs I’m sorry I’m a conservative.
unknown
No no her representative was not that defiant they just said no comment.
No no her representative was not that defiant they just said no comment.
Slavoj Žižek
My friends were telling me the same. You stupid you should have said no comment and then you would enjoy much more glory and so on.
My friends were telling me the same. You stupid you should have said no comment and then you would enjoy much more glory and so on.