WikiLeaks' Julian Assange & Philosopher Slavoj Zizek In Conversation With Amy Goodman 9 of 9
Interview · Democracy Now! ·
2011-07-02 · 0:09:24 · 1,284 words
with Julian Assange
geopolitics-warideologyliberalism-political-correctnessdemocracypsychoanalysis
Žižek analyzes the political implications of the 'Palestine Papers' and WikiLeaks, arguing that these events expose the cynical hypocrisy of Western liberal democracies. He uses the example of the Egyptian uprising to illustrate how the West desires secular democracy only in a distant, unattainable form, revealing a repressed desire for fundamentalism. He concludes that WikiLeaks represents a traumatic 'event' that forces a confrontation with the Real of political reality, which cannot be ignored or renormalized.
every located moment in this recording, click one to read it
The ideas in it 7
in the order they first come up; click a row for what he does with the idea here
as “Kafkaesque paradox of being extradited without even being charged”
Žižek's description of the current geopolitical state where individuals or states are punished or targeted without formal legal justification or clear charges, highlighting the absurdity and terror of modern power structures.
The ideological mechanism where actors know the truth (e.g., that peace negotiations are a sham) but continue to perform the rituals of diplomacy as if they believed in them, maintaining the status quo through collective hypocrisy.
Not merely the release of information, but the structural shift it causes: pushing society to a point of 'undeniability' where one can no longer pretend not to know the ugly truths of state power, thus breaking the 'cynical game'.
as “cynicism at its purest”
A state of political hypocrisy where official policy (e.g., borders as a basis for peace) is known to be true but is actively ignored or treated as an 'obscenity' to be discussed, revealing that the system functions only by not acknowledging its own stated rules.
Žižek's ironic label for the Western liberal desire for 'secular democracy' in the Arab world, which is actually a repressed desire for a fundamentalist, anti-Semitic, nationalist outburst that is easier to manage or condemn than a genuine secular movement.
A Lacanian/Žižekian concept referring to a rupture in the symbolic order that changes the entire field of possibilities, forcing a re-evaluation of reality; here applied to WikiLeaks as a moment that cannot be ignored.
as “renormalized”
The ideological process of absorbing a traumatic event (like WikiLeaks) back into the normal flow of discourse (e.g., calling it 'freedom of the press') to neutralize its disruptive power and restore the status quo.
Stories he reaches for 1
Žižek compares the West's reaction to the Egyptian uprising to a scene in Truffaut's Day for Night: a man wants to sleep with a woman, they are alone, she unbuttons her trousers, and he is shocked that it's happening 'just like that.' The West wanted 'secular democracy' but was shocked when Egyptians delivered it directly without the expected fundamentalist drama.
“the guy says okay but how do you mean my God just like that... we were a little bit like that officially we wanted secular democracy”
Works invoked 3
WikiLeaks other
Analyzed not for its content but for its function as a traumatic 'event' that forces the 'undeniability' of political reality, breaking the cynical game of ideology.
Day for Night film
Used as a specific scene (the lake scene) to illustrate the shock of the West when its repressed desire for secular democracy is fulfilled directly.
Palestine Papers other
Referenced as a set of leaked documents that revealed the Palestinian side's willingness to compromise, exposing Israel's lack of interest in peace.
People invoked 3
François Truffaut positive
Cited as the director of Day for Night, whose film contains a scene Žižek uses as a perfect allegory for Western political hypocrisy regarding the Arab Spring.
Addressed directly in the audience ('I think Amy I think maybe this is one of the ways'), likely the interviewer or host.
Barack Obama positive
Žižek states he is 'not a total fan of Obama' but has 'certain respect for him,' using Obama's statement on borders to illustrate Western hypocrisy.
Transcript 12 turns
Slavoj Žižek
First I'm so sad we don't have time to go into it because I found this again yet another this by this I mean this strange mutual recognition and this absolutely think about it what you've heard this properly Kafkaesque paradox of being extradited without even being charged I mean are we aware where we are but let's not take that path first I cannot but restrain from making an obscene lovingly obscene remark of how when you said you were staying with that Miss Egypt no I hope there will be some American fundamentalist who will say ah now everything is clear there you were seduced by that Miss who was really Al-Qaeda agent and then you were turned into a terrorist agent through her to do your terrorist activity now things are clear now one minute to go okay yeah yeah but one minute in this broader Christian sense where time is eternity and so on very briefly first all that also those Palestine papers that kind of you triggered the movement I wonder if you agree I read I've read them what made me so depressive is that my liberal Israeli friends were telling me all the time listen we admit it we we are doing bad thing of the on the West Bank but you cannot negotiate if they bomb you like let's just and if you of course exempt the Gaza on the West Bank there was practically total peace the last five six even more years the image you get from these papers is that there was an incredible compromising spirit from the Palestinian side offering them practically entire Jerusalem and so on and it was absolutely clear that it's Israel which is not interested in peace second just a couple of points second point I think it's so important the exact words you use which make my point which confirm my point namely how undeniable they could no longer deny it and so on that's important you know again we are in this situation where I know you know I you that you know you know that I know but we can still play this cynical game let's act as if we don't know the function of WikiLeaks even more important I claim in concrete ideological political situation then learning us then learning through WikiLeaks something new is to to push us to this point where you cannot pretend not to know which is why let me give you another example again I'm not a total fan of Obama although I still have certain respect for him but this is cynicism at its purest you remember this outcry in Zionist circles where Obama made the simple point that not even exact frontiers that the basis of peace should be the borders the borders my God the critical reaction was as if Obama said something I don't know following orders from Al-Qaeda or what but this was the official US policy accepted only the obscenity of the situation was that although this was officially the US policy it was part of the unwritten deal not to talk about it to ignore it that's our situation here step further Egypt I know you know what's for me and you had here a lot the truth about Egypt we Western Europeans had this normal spontaneous racist attitude no we we would love to see a secular democratic movement in Arab countries unfortunately all they can do is some stupid anti-semitic fundamentalist nationalist whatever outburst now officially we got exactly what we wanted a purely secular uprising and so on and you know how we behaved my last loving obscene example did you see Francois Truffaut Day for Night where a guy wants to sleep with a girl tries to convince her for a long time then finally they are alone because of an accident by a lake and again he starts please let's do it quickly we are alone here and the girl says okay let's do it and starts to unbutton her trousers and the guy says okay but how do you mean my God just like that or whatever like he is shocked we were a little bit like that officially we wanted secular democracy the Egyptians said okay I put down my trousers here you have your stupid secular democracy and oh you cannot get it just like that this was such a clear example of hypocrisy now really to to finish maybe the most important thing what you already said I think Amy I think maybe this is one of the ways if we are approaching the end to conclude it even if you ignore WikiLeaks it changed the entire field you it's again even at the level of of publishing spreading informations you pushed things in a very formal way to a point of undeniability nobody can pretend that WikiLeaks didn't happen and it would be very interesting to classify all reactions to WikiLeaks you know as different forms of in psychoanalytic terms repression denial whatever some people say formally yeah yeah but try to neutralize it like oh another another chapter in freedom of the press investigative journalism others say directly terrorism I wonder the approach I would have followed if I were to be on the other side would have mean something like it's basically a good thing it's just misused by some extremists you know and then you kind of say precisely to save the safe core of good core of WikiLeaks so what I'm saying is that again to conclude don't worry this is the moment of truth WikiLeaks is an event not only because of what it is as in itself but because nobody can ignore it it changed the entire field the point is not to allow to be renormalized to remain faithful to it just a note Slavoj and I will be outside
First I'm so sad we don't have time to go into it because I found this again yet another this by this I mean this strange mutual recognition and this absolutely think about it what you've heard this properly Kafkaesque paradox of being extradited without even being charged I mean are we aware where we are but let's not take that path first I cannot but restrain from making an obscene lovingly obscene remark of how when you said you were staying with that Miss Egypt no I hope there will be some American fundamentalist who will say ah now everything is clear there you were seduced by that Miss who was really Al-Qaeda agent and then you were turned into a terrorist agent through her to do your terrorist activity now things are clear now one minute to go okay yeah yeah but one minute in this broader Christian sense where time is eternity and so on very briefly first all that also those Palestine papers that kind of you triggered the movement I wonder if you agree I read I've read them what made me so depressive is that my liberal Israeli friends were telling me all the time listen we admit it we we are doing bad thing of the on the West Bank but you cannot negotiate if they bomb you like let's just and if you of course exempt the Gaza on the West Bank there was practically total peace the last five six even more years the image you get from these papers is that there was an incredible compromising spirit from the Palestinian side offering them practically entire Jerusalem and so on and it was absolutely clear that it's Israel which is not interested in peace second just a couple of points second point I think it's so important the exact words you use which make my point which confirm my point namely how undeniable they could no longer deny it and so on that's important you know again we are in this situation where I know you know I you that you know you know that I know but we can still play this cynical game let's act as if we don't know the function of WikiLeaks even more important I claim in concrete ideological political situation then learning us then learning through WikiLeaks something new is to to push us to this point where you cannot pretend not to know which is why let me give you another example again I'm not a total fan of Obama although I still have certain respect for him but this is cynicism at its purest you remember this outcry in Zionist circles where Obama made the simple point that not even exact frontiers that the basis of peace should be the borders the borders my God the critical reaction was as if Obama said something I don't know following orders from Al-Qaeda or what but this was the official US policy accepted only the obscenity of the situation was that although this was officially the US policy it was part of the unwritten deal not to talk about it to ignore it that's our situation here step further Egypt I know you know what's for me and you had here a lot the truth about Egypt we Western Europeans had this normal spontaneous racist attitude no we we would love to see a secular democratic movement in Arab countries unfortunately all they can do is some stupid anti-semitic fundamentalist nationalist whatever outburst now officially we got exactly what we wanted a purely secular uprising and so on and you know how we behaved my last loving obscene example did you see Francois Truffaut Day for Night where a guy wants to sleep with a girl tries to convince her for a long time then finally they are alone because of an accident by a lake and again he starts please let's do it quickly we are alone here and the girl says okay let's do it and starts to unbutton her trousers and the guy says okay but how do you mean my God just like that or whatever like he is shocked we were a little bit like that officially we wanted secular democracy the Egyptians said okay I put down my trousers here you have your stupid secular democracy and oh you cannot get it just like that this was such a clear example of hypocrisy now really to to finish maybe the most important thing what you already said I think Amy I think maybe this is one of the ways if we are approaching the end to conclude it even if you ignore WikiLeaks it changed the entire field you it's again even at the level of of publishing spreading informations you pushed things in a very formal way to a point of undeniability nobody can pretend that WikiLeaks didn't happen and it would be very interesting to classify all reactions to WikiLeaks you know as different forms of in psychoanalytic terms repression denial whatever some people say formally yeah yeah but try to neutralize it like oh another another chapter in freedom of the press investigative journalism others say directly terrorism I wonder the approach I would have followed if I were to be on the other side would have mean something like it's basically a good thing it's just misused by some extremists you know and then you kind of say precisely to save the safe core of good core of WikiLeaks so what I'm saying is that again to conclude don't worry this is the moment of truth WikiLeaks is an event not only because of what it is as in itself but because nobody can ignore it it changed the entire field the point is not to allow to be renormalized to remain faithful to it just a note Slavoj and I will be outside
unknown
signing books in the left in the lobby right afterwards and would love to talk to you definitely pick up a flyer yes you do and end on I want to end with this question Julian tomorrow July 3rd you turn years old what are your hopes for the future well there's there's the big future there's the deep future that one can long for so that that is a future where we are all able to freely communicate our hopes and dreams factual information about
signing books in the left in the lobby right afterwards and would love to talk to you definitely pick up a flyer yes you do and end on I want to end with this question Julian tomorrow July 3rd you turn years old what are your hopes for the future well there's there's the big future there's the deep future that one can long for so that that is a future where we are all able to freely communicate our hopes and dreams factual information about
Julian Assange
the world with each other and the historical record is an item that is completely sacrosanct that would never be changed never be modified never be deleted and that we will steer a course away from Orwell's dictum of he who controls the present controls the past so that that is something that is my life long quest to do and from all from that justice flows because each most of us have an instinct for justice and most of us are reasonably intelligent and if we can communicate with each other organize not be oppressed and know what's going on then pretty much the rest falls out so that is my big hope in the short term it is that my staff stop hassling me to tell me to go what I wish you to all the best is another even more beautiful Miss Egypt for your birthday [unintelligible] it was very interesting very good part but really was so beautiful Miss Egypt I was just yes
the world with each other and the historical record is an item that is completely sacrosanct that would never be changed never be modified never be deleted and that we will steer a course away from Orwell's dictum of he who controls the present controls the past so that that is something that is my life long quest to do and from all from that justice flows because each most of us have an instinct for justice and most of us are reasonably intelligent and if we can communicate with each other organize not be oppressed and know what's going on then pretty much the rest falls out so that is my big hope in the short term it is that my staff stop hassling me to tell me to go what I wish you to all the best is another even more beautiful Miss Egypt for your birthday [unintelligible] it was very interesting very good part but really was so beautiful Miss Egypt I was just yes
Slavoj Žižek
yes
yes
Julian Assange
she
she
Slavoj Žižek
was beautiful follow up a bit what stupid
was beautiful follow up a bit what stupid
Julian Assange
things
things
Slavoj Žižek
we have to
we have to
Julian Assange
do here but really listen
do here but really listen
Slavoj Žižek
but pat her not literally
but pat her not literally
Julian Assange
but I was told I was only told about books I was told there
but I was told I was only told about books I was told there
Slavoj Žižek
is no bookstand
is no bookstand