Yanis Varoufakis & Slavoj Zizek | Festival INDIGO 2021
Talk · zizekpodcast.com ·
2021-10-21 · 2:05:00 · 16,054 words
capitalismeconomicsideologygeopolitics-wardemocracycommunism-socialismtechnology-ai-cyberspaceecology-climatehistoryphilosophy-general
A public conversation in Ljubljana between Žižek (as interviewer) and Yanis Varoufakis, covering the SYRIZA debt crisis and Varoufakis's Plan B against the Troika, the thesis that capitalism has mutated into 'techno-feudalism' driven by digital platforms and central-bank money rather than profit and markets, and the politics of resistance via the Progressive International. Žižek contributes framing questions, jokes, and philosophical asides while Varoufakis provides the main substantive analysis. Subsidiary topics include China's neo-conservative strategy under Wang Huning, EU enlargement, climate transition, and Yugoslav self-management.
every located moment in this recording, click one to read it
The ideas in it 13
in the order they first come up; click a row for what he does with the idea here
Žižek invokes Kant's distinction: public reason is genuine free thinking and collective debate, threatened today by cynicism and ideology; 'private' reason serves preordained state or institutional interests.
as “emancipation of politics”
Žižek, paraphrasing Alenka Zupančič, argues we need not less politics but more engaged politics, 'emancipation OF politics' rather than politics of emancipation, because cynical withdrawal from politics serves those in power.
Žižek uses the phrase to describe how ideology today does not require naivety but exploits people's distrust and 'do your own research' skepticism, the ideological subject voluntarily walks into the trap.
Varoufakis's metaphor for Greece's permanent debt-colony status under Troika austerity, a condition where you are forced to borrow more to pretend you are not bankrupt, shrinking income indefinitely.
Varoufakis uses game-theory term to describe his Plan B (Drachma readiness): a strategy worth pursuing regardless of what the opponent does, distinguishing genuine commitment from bluffing.
Varoufakis's term for the current system in which digital platforms (Amazon, Facebook) function as feudal fiefdoms extracting rents rather than profits, and central-bank money replaces profit as the engine of the economy, dissolving classical capitalism.
as “subject supposed to know”
Žižek addresses Varoufakis as 'subject supposed to know' when asking him to explain why money-printing has not caused inflation, a half-ironic attribution of supposed expert knowledge.
Varoufakis distinguishes asset-price inflation (rising shares, property) from consumer-price inflation: central-bank money flows to wealthy corporations and their assets, not to ordinary consumers, explaining the post-2008 inflation paradox.
as “bullshit jobs”
Varoufakis invokes David Graeber's concept of low-quality, meaningless employment that proliferates under post-2008 austerity capitalism while real wages and conditions deteriorate.
Varoufakis names the ability to slice corporate ownership into anonymous tradeable shares a 'monstrosity' born in the sixteenth century, the structural root of capitalism's concentration of power.
Varoufakis's proposed alternative: shares made non-tradeable, one-per-worker, like a university library card, untransferable, giving workers sovereignty over firms without state nationalization.
as “negation of the negation”
Žižek half-jokingly applies Hegel's dialectical formula when Varoufakis says he is 'not politically a nobody', a playful moment referencing the Hegelian structure of double negation.
as “green Keynesianism”
Varoufakis's policy prescription: using public financial instruments (European Investment Bank, ECB) to mobilize half a trillion euros per year for an EU energy union and green transition.
Stories he reaches for 1
Žižek jokes that his version of friendship with those who come to power is: 'If you're in the gulag I'll make a call from Moscow and you'll get a double portion of rotten fish-head soup every Sunday.'
“In gulag every Sunday you get a little bit better soup, two rotten heads of a fish or something like that. I will make a call from Moscow you will get double portion of this soup every Sunday.”
Works invoked 3
The Life of Brian film
Monty Python film invoked twice: Varoufakis uses 'What have the Romans done for us?' as a self-deprecating framing; Žižek repurposes it at the close to mock-dismiss everything Varoufakis said.
Wang Huning's book based on his 1980s American visit; Žižek says it is 'more true than ever' with Trump, a prescient account of US creative dynamism and self-destructive decadence.
Adults in the Room film
Costa-Gavras film based on Varoufakis's memoir; discussed in terms of casting (originally Ralph Fiennes, replaced by Greek actor for 'realism'), Žižek and Varoufakis agree that realism was 'a very bad idea in art'.
People invoked 35
Director of the film 'Adults in the Room' (based on Varoufakis's memoir), praised by Varoufakis, though Žižek and Varoufakis agree that Costa-Gavras's insistence on realism was 'a very bad idea in art'.
Alenka Zupančič positive
Žižek paraphrases her recent interview coining the phrase 'emancipation of politics' as the session's opening framing.
David Graeber positive
Varoufakis invokes Graeber's concept of 'bullshit jobs' to describe the proliferation of low-quality employment post-2008.
Amartya Sen positive
Varoufakis cites Sen's diagnosis that Greece's problem was 'creditors who did not want their money back', Žižek meanwhile jokes about his own racism toward Indians.
Susan Sarandon positive
Named among the 'usual suspects' at the Vermont founding of the Progressive International.
Referenced as the leader whose policies Wang Huning ideologically architects, the neo-conservative program of controlled capitalism plus cultural restoration.
Žižek treats Schäuble with grudging respect as the more honest of the EU hardliners; his private admission to Varoufakis that the austerity plan would not work and that Greece should exit the Euro is a key revelation.
Patrice Lumumba positive
Varoufakis names Lumumba's assassination as an example of European imperialism's destruction of Africa.
Rafael Correa positive
Named as a member of Progressive International by Varoufakis.
Donald Trump negative
Varoufakis identifies Trump as the initiator of the new Cold War against China, a geopolitical choice Biden then adopted and intensified.
Mikhail Suslov negative
Žižek admiringly describes Suslov as the Soviet ideological grey eminence who survived all leaders by providing Leninist textual justification on demand, a figure Žižek ironically says he would like to emulate.
Central figure in Varoufakis's account: his clash with the Bundesbank gave Greece its Plan B leverage via the 29-billion bond threat; cited as Varoufakis's key 'enemy' whose words confirmed the plan would work.
Oscar Wilde positive
Varoufakis invokes Wilde's quip that the problem with socialism is it takes too many evenings to explain the digital advantage Yugoslav self-management lacked.
Žižek notes Badiou 'hates him' for the claim that the Chinese Cultural Revolution created the subjective vacuum that enabled exploding capitalism, a point of friendly disagreement.
Alexis Tsipras negative
Žižek and Varoufakis both condemn Tsipras for having no Plan B, capitulating to the Troika, and secretly signaling to Draghi not to respect Varoufakis's leverage strategy.
Varoufakis cites Bezos becoming $50 billion richer during the pandemic without working as the prime example of wealth breeding wealth in techno-feudalism.
Bernie Sanders positive
Varoufakis recounts Sanders's solidarity with Greece during Troika negotiations (threatened to cut IMF funding) and their collaboration founding the Progressive International.
Named as the owner of Facebook's digital fiefdom who controls what users see through his algorithm.
Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva positive
Named as a member of Progressive International.
Yanis Varoufakis positive
Žižek's 'good friend' and interlocutor; Žižek praises Varoufakis's formulations, calls him 'subject supposed to know', agrees with his dark picture of capitalism and techno-feudalism.
Benjamin Netanyahu negative
Varoufakis describes the Netanyahu regime as a prison for progressive Jews in Israel as much as for Palestinians.
Mentioned briefly as someone Žižek told his gulag soup joke to.
Katrín Jakobsdóttir positive
Prime Minister of Iceland, named among the good comrades at the Vermont Progressive International founding meeting.
Christine Lagarde negative
Varoufakis recounts that Lagarde privately admitted the austerity plan imposed on Greece would not work, but told him he had to comply for his own credibility as a politician.
Žižek and Varoufakis criticize Merkel for accommodating illiberal democracies in Hungary and Poland and for prioritizing German industrial interests over European solidarity.
Joe Biden negative
Varoufakis criticizes Biden for inheriting and turbocharging Trump's anti-China Cold War strategy.
Žižek describes Wang Huning as probably the most influential intellectual in the world, the ideological architect of Xi's neo-conservative strategy combining capitalist dynamism with cultural traditionalism.
Jens Weidmann negative
Head of Bundesbank who clashed with Draghi over QE and filed a 120-page court affidavit against him; his constraint on Draghi was the source of Greece's Bond leverage.
Cornel West positive
Named as one of the 'usual suspects' at the Vermont founding meeting of the Progressive International.
Margaret Thatcher negative
Varoufakis mentions Thatcher calling Mandela a terrorist while he was in prison, as part of the apartheid history.
Vladimir Putin negative
Varoufakis identifies Putin as playing games with EU energy supply to force approval of the Nord Stream pipeline, contributing to the energy price crisis.
Nelson Mandela positive
Mentioned as having been called a terrorist by Thatcher while imprisoned, Varoufakis recalls demonstrating for him in Hyde Park.
Joseph Stalin negative
Žižek jokingly invokes Stalin's supposed formula 'they were both worse' when asking about Merkel vs. Schäuble.
Noam Chomsky positive
Varoufakis cites Chomsky's argument with BBC journalist Andrew Marr about structural media bias, the journalist isn't lying, but wouldn't have the position if he held different views.
Immanuel Kant positive
Žižek opens by invoking Kant's distinction between public and private use of reason as the philosophical frame for the evening.
What it argues
public use of reason vs. private use of reasontechno-feudalism replacing capitalismSYRIZA, Greek debt crisis, and the Troikadigital platforms as feudal fiefdomsconspiracy theories, ideology, and manufactured distrustProgressive International and transnational left organizingChina's neo-conservative strategy and the Cultural Revolution's legacy
Dialectical moves 8
“When you have this cynical attitude — 'politics is a whore, who cares, just mind your own business' — this is precisely the stance which fits those in power.”
The apparent rejection of politics is itself the most political act, one that serves the existing power structure.
“The way the power mechanisms enslave you is not counting on your naivety but counting precisely on your distrust.”
Ideological capture works through skepticism rather than belief; the suspicious subject is already the ideological subject.
“If we were prepared to get out of the euro we wouldn't have to get out of the euro.”
The paradox of commitment: genuine willingness to pay the worst cost is precisely what prevents that cost from materializing.
“You had creditors who did not want their money back.”
The creditor-debtor relation inverts: the real goal is political domination, not repayment, the debt is a tool of subjugation, not an economic instrument.
“The moment you go into Amazon or Facebook the moment you enter Facebook you're outside of capitalism, you're not in capitalism anymore.”
The most expansive capitalist platforms are in fact the negation of capitalism, they function as non-market feudal fiefdoms.
“Capitalism has brought itself down and it's been replaced by something far worse, not by socialism.”
The dialectical reversal the Left expected, capitalism's self-destruction leading to socialism, has occurred, but in the opposite direction: replacement by techno-feudalism.
“That's not Central Bank independence — that's dependence.”
The formal independence of central banks from political power masks their total structural subordination to the financial system they sustain.
“We don't need less politics, we need more engaged politics — emancipation OF politics.”
The demand for emancipation must be turned back onto politics itself: politics must be freed from its subordination to economic constraints and cynical disavowal.
Claims 17
asserts
Public use of reason — free collective debate — is what is disappearing today and is exactly what we need most.public reason and political engagement
asserts
The anti-COVID protesters who say 'I am not here for politics, only for my freedom' perfectly illustrate how cynical withdrawal from politics serves those in power.ideology and political cynicism
asserts
Ideology today does not operate through naivety but through exploiting distrust — conspiracy theories and 'do your own research' make people voluntary ideological subjects.contemporary ideology and conspiracy theories
asserts
Greece's creditors did not want their money back; they wanted to crush Greece as a political example, making debt repayment structurally impossible by design.Troika and Greek debt crisis
asserts
Capitalism has already evolved out of itself: the current system of digital platforms and central-bank money is no longer capitalism but a new form of techno-feudalism.techno-feudalism vs. capitalism · unknown
asserts
The Left's refusal to accept that capitalism has already been superseded by something worse — techno-feudalism rather than socialism — is a major political blind spot.the Left's failure to recognize techno-feudalism · unknown
asserts
Digital platforms like Facebook and Amazon are not markets but feudal fiefdoms, and entering them means stepping outside of capitalism.platforms vs. markets · unknown
asserts
The absence of consumer-price inflation despite massive money-printing is explained by the fact that the money flows to asset owners and corporations, not to workers with purchasing power.inflation paradox post-2008 · unknown
rejects
Nationalizing tech platforms is neither feasible nor desirable; the solution is changing corporate law to make shares non-tradeable and one-per-worker.nationalization of big tech · unknown
rejects
Wang Huning's neo-conservative strategy of combining capitalist dynamism with traditional cultural values is unlikely to succeed.China's neo-conservative political strategy
rejects
China is not imperialist in the classical sense and presenting it as a new Nazi regime is dangerous propaganda that serves a new Cold War agenda.Western narrative of China as imperialist threat · unknown
asserts
The Greek Cultural Revolution (Cultural Revolution destroying Confucian tradition) created the empty subjective conditions for exploding capitalism in China.Chinese Cultural Revolution and capitalism
asserts
If Greece had been prepared to actually exit the Euro and issue its own currency, the EU would have offered a debt haircut at the eleventh hour to prevent it.Grexit strategy and negotiating leverage · unknown
asserts
Israel is an apartheid state — a verdict first voiced by B'Tselem, the Jewish Israeli human rights organization.Israeli apartheid and Palestinian rights · unknown
asserts
The greatest enemies of the Greek people during the crisis were Greeks themselves — the Greek oligarchy and division within the left's own ranks.Greek politics and internal betrayal · unknown
rejects
Social justice rhetoric about inequality is 'bourgeois claptrap'; real liberation requires changing ownership rights and making shares non-tradeable.liberal social justice and inequality discourse · unknown
asserts
The Yugoslav self-management model was a genuine success story that collapsed not due to inherent dysfunctionalities but because of the debt crisis triggered by the 1970s oil shock.Yugoslav self-management · unknown
Quotes 12
“The way the power mechanisms enslave you is not counting on your naivety but counting precisely on your distrust.”Slavoj Žižek · ideology works through distrust not naivety
“We all talk about politics of emancipation but what we need today is also emancipation of politics — we don't need less politics, we need more engaged politics.”Slavoj Žižek · emancipation of politics
“The moment you go into Amazon or Facebook you're outside of capitalism, you're not in capitalism anymore.”unknown · platforms are not markets
“Capitalism has brought itself down and it's been replaced by something far worse, not by socialism. The Left does not want to listen to that.”unknown · techno-feudalism has replaced capitalism
“If we were prepared to get out of the euro we wouldn't have to get out of the euro.”unknown · paradox of commitment in negotiation
“You had creditors who did not want their money back. They wanted to crush us.”unknown · debt as instrument of political domination
“Never fetishize the instrument and never turn against the instrument. Turn against the social relations of ownership and production of the instruments.”unknown · Marxist critique of technology fetishism
“Social justice and inequality — for me that means nothing. It is simply bourgeois claptrap for the purposes of massaging our conscience.”unknown · rejection of liberal inequality discourse
“Every time you have your phone and you walk around Google knows where you are and that enriches the software of Google Maps. You are not a shareholder, you don't get shares for that capital, they get it.”unknown · users as unpaid producers of platform capital
“I only believe my enemies. I never believe my friends. Not because they are not trustworthy people but usually they don't know.”unknown · epistemology: enemies as more reliable informants
“Public use of reason means not just to think but to reflect on thinking itself.”Slavoj Žižek · Kantian public reason as reflexive thinking
“It was a delicious paradox, one of those that you love. If we were prepared to see it all the way to the end of the line... they would come to us at the eleventh hour begging us not to do it.”unknown · commitment device paradox in game theory
Transcript 128 turns
Slavoj Žižek
Thank you very much. I'm glad to be here with my good friend Yanis and those who know me know very well what do I mean by good friends. That he voluntarily accepts all my dirty jokes and so on. Even enjoys them. Yeah. I thought always that masochism is a feminine category but okay that's another point. Okay. Now more seriously. The reason I accepted this talk is that what we need in these days I think more than ever is what the great philosopher of Enlightenment Immanuel Kant called public use of reason. He opposes as some of you maybe know public use of reason to private use of reason. But in what way? For Kant, state administration, theological faculty, law faculty of law, this is private use of reason because it serves a preordained order, state interests and so on. While if we meet just to debate something, thinking really, it is public use of reason. And public use of reason is what is under threat, what is disappearing today. Public use of reason means not just to think but to reflect on thinking itself. Don't be afraid, I will give you a simple example. Here in Slovenia a couple of days ago I saw on TV a report on those anti-COVID anti-COVID measures where a lady was saying I'm here not for politics, I don't care about politics, it's only for my freedom and human rights that I am here. Now our first act here should be to analyze this term. But what do we mean by freedom? In what conditions it's possible to be free? What do we mean by politics? Following my good friend Alenka Zupančič, I would like to paraphrase her, what she said in a recent interview, that we all talk about politics of emancipation but what we need today is also emancipation of politics in the sense that we don't need less politics, we need more engaged politics. Because are you aware that when you have this cynical attitude politics is a whore, who cares about it, just mind your own business, this is I think the stance which fits perfectly those in power. So that's why we are here and I would just like to begin to approaching Greece with a difference which and then immediately I give you the word which shows nicely the superiority of Greek civilization over our Slovene civilization. Recently I read that we discovered some doctors who you pay three, four hundred euros you get a fake vaccine. We have those too. Yeah, but as I am informed, is it true or not, with a difference. Your doctors did something wonderful and that's where I support them. You know what they did? Okay, you are opposed to vaccination, you pay four hundred and they give you something, they tell you oh it's just water just to go through the thing. They discovered that these doctors were giving you real vaccination. And I think this is how we when we criticize and again we Slovenes are true primitives. When I hear anecdotes like that I understand why Greeks are the origin of Western civilization. But more seriously no no now sorry I will immediately finish. We are the inventors of mythology. Sorry? We are the inventors of mythology. This is a great myth, a very instructive myth, but I fear it is a myth. No but what I really want to say is that the reason I like this story is that it has a very important lesson for our now I'm slowly getting serious for our situation today. That the way the power mechanisms enslave you is not counting on your naivety but counting precisely on your distrust. That's how conspiracy theories work. Don't trust those in power. For example with pandemic the motto of skeptics is do your own research. What does this mean? That you go to Google and put it on search and of course get as many conspiracy theories as you want. So what I'm saying is that I think you I even read somewhere this what you the British the English whatever have this wonderful expression lamb to slaughter. That you don't have to catch the lamb it voluntarily waits in line. That's how ideology works today. It takes into account our skeptical distance and so on and so on. Short introduction finished now I ask the question if you want to it's more like what they call in detective movies a third degree. You can get stronger because light if you want because the Gestapo light. Gestapo yeah because serious questions will be serious. The first one SYRIZA. We know you were almost to the end Finance Minister and so on. We know what it happened. Just to remind you on the one hand it was the demands of the European Union, accept our conditions and so on. On the other hand the Grexit guys. Let's do the revolution, let's step out and so on. And you now we by we I mean enlightened public all around Europe who were on your side we were all the time maybe naively believing that you now not you personally but the whole gang of SYRIZA that you had a B plan. Something secretly to sorry for the vulgarity to squeeze the testicles of European Union. Now we learned lately that after they fired you that Tsipras and his guys well they didn't have a B plan. Like they just capitulated. But you acted at that point as if you had some plan. You even publicly now comes the friendly aggressive part acted as if I remember a couple of interviews you know as if in a couple of days you will see I will make a deal and so on and so on. So what is your vision? Did you really had in your mind what but not in Tony Blair's sense a third way. You know like was there possible to break out of this vicious cycle either compromise with European Union or Grexit? Simple brutal Grexit which you convinced me once we talked when you were Finance Minister and you told me that some financial specialists told you that if you do brutally Grexit the standard of living would have fallen for a further thirty percent, that it would have been a catastrophe. What was your third way if there was any? I mean it seriously because many people think that you didn't have a third way. That you were also bluffing. There was a plan. I still believe that it was eminently workable and You still believe this? I still believe it. I know it and you know why? Because I was told so by my enemies. I only believe my enemies. I never believe my friends. Not because they are not trustworthy people but usually they don't know. They know as much as I know which is not that much. Who are the enemies? Name them. Mario Draghi. The President of the European Central Bank. What was the plan? The plan had I'm not I'm not going to speak too long about this because you know I've
Thank you very much. I'm glad to be here with my good friend Yanis and those who know me know very well what do I mean by good friends. That he voluntarily accepts all my dirty jokes and so on. Even enjoys them. Yeah. I thought always that masochism is a feminine category but okay that's another point. Okay. Now more seriously. The reason I accepted this talk is that what we need in these days I think more than ever is what the great philosopher of Enlightenment Immanuel Kant called public use of reason. He opposes as some of you maybe know public use of reason to private use of reason. But in what way? For Kant, state administration, theological faculty, law faculty of law, this is private use of reason because it serves a preordained order, state interests and so on. While if we meet just to debate something, thinking really, it is public use of reason. And public use of reason is what is under threat, what is disappearing today. Public use of reason means not just to think but to reflect on thinking itself. Don't be afraid, I will give you a simple example. Here in Slovenia a couple of days ago I saw on TV a report on those anti-COVID anti-COVID measures where a lady was saying I'm here not for politics, I don't care about politics, it's only for my freedom and human rights that I am here. Now our first act here should be to analyze this term. But what do we mean by freedom? In what conditions it's possible to be free? What do we mean by politics? Following my good friend Alenka Zupančič, I would like to paraphrase her, what she said in a recent interview, that we all talk about politics of emancipation but what we need today is also emancipation of politics in the sense that we don't need less politics, we need more engaged politics. Because are you aware that when you have this cynical attitude politics is a whore, who cares about it, just mind your own business, this is I think the stance which fits perfectly those in power. So that's why we are here and I would just like to begin to approaching Greece with a difference which and then immediately I give you the word which shows nicely the superiority of Greek civilization over our Slovene civilization. Recently I read that we discovered some doctors who you pay three, four hundred euros you get a fake vaccine. We have those too. Yeah, but as I am informed, is it true or not, with a difference. Your doctors did something wonderful and that's where I support them. You know what they did? Okay, you are opposed to vaccination, you pay four hundred and they give you something, they tell you oh it's just water just to go through the thing. They discovered that these doctors were giving you real vaccination. And I think this is how we when we criticize and again we Slovenes are true primitives. When I hear anecdotes like that I understand why Greeks are the origin of Western civilization. But more seriously no no now sorry I will immediately finish. We are the inventors of mythology. Sorry? We are the inventors of mythology. This is a great myth, a very instructive myth, but I fear it is a myth. No but what I really want to say is that the reason I like this story is that it has a very important lesson for our now I'm slowly getting serious for our situation today. That the way the power mechanisms enslave you is not counting on your naivety but counting precisely on your distrust. That's how conspiracy theories work. Don't trust those in power. For example with pandemic the motto of skeptics is do your own research. What does this mean? That you go to Google and put it on search and of course get as many conspiracy theories as you want. So what I'm saying is that I think you I even read somewhere this what you the British the English whatever have this wonderful expression lamb to slaughter. That you don't have to catch the lamb it voluntarily waits in line. That's how ideology works today. It takes into account our skeptical distance and so on and so on. Short introduction finished now I ask the question if you want to it's more like what they call in detective movies a third degree. You can get stronger because light if you want because the Gestapo light. Gestapo yeah because serious questions will be serious. The first one SYRIZA. We know you were almost to the end Finance Minister and so on. We know what it happened. Just to remind you on the one hand it was the demands of the European Union, accept our conditions and so on. On the other hand the Grexit guys. Let's do the revolution, let's step out and so on. And you now we by we I mean enlightened public all around Europe who were on your side we were all the time maybe naively believing that you now not you personally but the whole gang of SYRIZA that you had a B plan. Something secretly to sorry for the vulgarity to squeeze the testicles of European Union. Now we learned lately that after they fired you that Tsipras and his guys well they didn't have a B plan. Like they just capitulated. But you acted at that point as if you had some plan. You even publicly now comes the friendly aggressive part acted as if I remember a couple of interviews you know as if in a couple of days you will see I will make a deal and so on and so on. So what is your vision? Did you really had in your mind what but not in Tony Blair's sense a third way. You know like was there possible to break out of this vicious cycle either compromise with European Union or Grexit? Simple brutal Grexit which you convinced me once we talked when you were Finance Minister and you told me that some financial specialists told you that if you do brutally Grexit the standard of living would have fallen for a further thirty percent, that it would have been a catastrophe. What was your third way if there was any? I mean it seriously because many people think that you didn't have a third way. That you were also bluffing. There was a plan. I still believe that it was eminently workable and You still believe this? I still believe it. I know it and you know why? Because I was told so by my enemies. I only believe my enemies. I never believe my friends. Not because they are not trustworthy people but usually they don't know. They know as much as I know which is not that much. Who are the enemies? Name them. Mario Draghi. The President of the European Central Bank. What was the plan? The plan had I'm not I'm not going to speak too long about this because you know I've
unknown
written a whole book about it. Ah because because you don't really have a plan no. No no I do I did have a plan it's just I've spoken about it far too often. And there is a six hundred page book on it. But okay. What was the plan? And the plan by the way Slavoj was the reason why I was Finance Minister. Because I was not not a member of the SYRIZA party. I never wanted to be a minister, I didn't want to be a parliamentarian or a politician for that matter. It's just because when Tsipras was about to become Prime Minister I said to him so what are you going to do when they squeeze you? And he said I have no idea. Do you have an idea? So I had an idea and I proposed it to him. The plan. And he said this is great but I don't have anybody to implement it so you're going to have to be Finance Minister. And I thought oh shit. You know that yeah should have kept my mouth shut. But then of course moral duty all those bourgeois concepts right pushed me to saying yes. But what was the plan? The plan was this. This is the beginning of Draghi who was in the Central Bank since the end of spent overtime between and the beginning of struggling to create the circumstances for him to buy Italian debt because Italy was on the way out. Three trillion euros worth of debt. If that debt had blown up the Eurozone would have blown up. There would be you wouldn't have euros in your pockets now. It would have been Germany would have recreated the Deutsche Mark, it's very simple. Okay? So the only thing that saved the euro was that he was going to save the Italian state. But he had to go against the German Central Bank. So there was a big clash between Mario Draghi, the European Central Bank, and Jens Weidmann, the head of the Bundesbank, the German Central Bank. They even ended up in court. The German Central Bank chief tabled one hundred and twenty pages of an affidavit against Mario Draghi in the European courts. I mean this was a huge clash. Okay? So Merkel and Draghi were working against the chief of the Bundesbank. We're talking about serious clashes now. Okay? These are the contradictions of the system that if you are a tiny little pipsqueak Finance Minister of a tiny pipsqueak country you have to exploit. And I thought I had found the the weak point of the empire. Of the Star Wars spaceship right. Um and it was this. The only way Draghi managed to convince the European courts to allow him to buy Italian debt was if he he pledged that he wouldn't allow one euro of the debt that he had purchased to be written down. Hm? And when I realized Sorry so that people understand even I am what do you mean by written down? Uh written off. wiped out. Okay yeah. You
written a whole book about it. Ah because because you don't really have a plan no. No no I do I did have a plan it's just I've spoken about it far too often. And there is a six hundred page book on it. But okay. What was the plan? And the plan by the way Slavoj was the reason why I was Finance Minister. Because I was not not a member of the SYRIZA party. I never wanted to be a minister, I didn't want to be a parliamentarian or a politician for that matter. It's just because when Tsipras was about to become Prime Minister I said to him so what are you going to do when they squeeze you? And he said I have no idea. Do you have an idea? So I had an idea and I proposed it to him. The plan. And he said this is great but I don't have anybody to implement it so you're going to have to be Finance Minister. And I thought oh shit. You know that yeah should have kept my mouth shut. But then of course moral duty all those bourgeois concepts right pushed me to saying yes. But what was the plan? The plan was this. This is the beginning of Draghi who was in the Central Bank since the end of spent overtime between and the beginning of struggling to create the circumstances for him to buy Italian debt because Italy was on the way out. Three trillion euros worth of debt. If that debt had blown up the Eurozone would have blown up. There would be you wouldn't have euros in your pockets now. It would have been Germany would have recreated the Deutsche Mark, it's very simple. Okay? So the only thing that saved the euro was that he was going to save the Italian state. But he had to go against the German Central Bank. So there was a big clash between Mario Draghi, the European Central Bank, and Jens Weidmann, the head of the Bundesbank, the German Central Bank. They even ended up in court. The German Central Bank chief tabled one hundred and twenty pages of an affidavit against Mario Draghi in the European courts. I mean this was a huge clash. Okay? So Merkel and Draghi were working against the chief of the Bundesbank. We're talking about serious clashes now. Okay? These are the contradictions of the system that if you are a tiny little pipsqueak Finance Minister of a tiny pipsqueak country you have to exploit. And I thought I had found the the weak point of the empire. Of the Star Wars spaceship right. Um and it was this. The only way Draghi managed to convince the European courts to allow him to buy Italian debt was if he he pledged that he wouldn't allow one euro of the debt that he had purchased to be written down. Hm? And when I realized Sorry so that people understand even I am what do you mean by written down? Uh written off. wiped out. Okay yeah. You
Slavoj Žižek
know expunged, haircut. Um the Greek state owed twenty-nine billion to the Central Bank. These
know expunged, haircut. Um the Greek state owed twenty-nine billion to the Central Bank. These
unknown
were bonds that the Central Bank had. And they were in
were bonds that the Central Bank had. And they were in
unknown
Greek law which mean meant the Finance Minister of Greece could simply do whatever that he wanted with them. You know say that it would not be paid for another hundred years. This is effectively writing it down. So a week before the election I knew we were going to win. It was clear from the elec from the polls. Um in an interview with the BBC I I was just a candidate for a member of parliament formally right? But I knew I was going to be Finance Minister if we won. In an interview with the BBC I was asked some irrelevant question and on purpose I said I gave an irrelevant answer as a signal to Mario Draghi. And it was this. If SYRIZA wins and we're in government immediately we're going to get a phone call from Frankfurt from the European Central Bank threatening us with bank closures and squeezing. The answer should be we're going to write down those twenty-nine billion of debt. Because this is what you do when your central bank squeezes you you squeeze them back. And that would impede the purchase of Italian debt. Cut. Two weeks later I'm Finance Minister and I'm in Frankfurt and I have my first meeting with with Mario Draghi. First thing he says to me after two hours of boring meetings, rituals and all that when we were on one on one is please Yanis don't mention again those bonds. And I of course we had a dialectic of recognition there. All right? And I said I will not do that if you don't shut down my banks. Okay? Cut again. And this is where my story ends. Two months later two months later I learn from within the European Central Bank from a very high-ranking whistleblower. Not Mario Draghi himself but somebody very close that the Greek Prime Minister my comrade and friend Tsipras had authorized a message to go through the Deputy Prime Minister to Draghi don't listen to Varoufakis we're not going to let him do it. So there was a plan. It would have worked. There would have been some compromise. Of course there would have been a compromise. Uh we would have to give stuff but we would get effectively the only thing that I cared for. The only reason why I became part of this struggle was to get Greeks out of debtors' prison. That we would have achieved. And in the final analysis so that was Plan B. And there was a Plan X. Plan X was the Drachma. Because yes it is true that we would have lost not thirty twenty
Greek law which mean meant the Finance Minister of Greece could simply do whatever that he wanted with them. You know say that it would not be paid for another hundred years. This is effectively writing it down. So a week before the election I knew we were going to win. It was clear from the elec from the polls. Um in an interview with the BBC I I was just a candidate for a member of parliament formally right? But I knew I was going to be Finance Minister if we won. In an interview with the BBC I was asked some irrelevant question and on purpose I said I gave an irrelevant answer as a signal to Mario Draghi. And it was this. If SYRIZA wins and we're in government immediately we're going to get a phone call from Frankfurt from the European Central Bank threatening us with bank closures and squeezing. The answer should be we're going to write down those twenty-nine billion of debt. Because this is what you do when your central bank squeezes you you squeeze them back. And that would impede the purchase of Italian debt. Cut. Two weeks later I'm Finance Minister and I'm in Frankfurt and I have my first meeting with with Mario Draghi. First thing he says to me after two hours of boring meetings, rituals and all that when we were on one on one is please Yanis don't mention again those bonds. And I of course we had a dialectic of recognition there. All right? And I said I will not do that if you don't shut down my banks. Okay? Cut again. And this is where my story ends. Two months later two months later I learn from within the European Central Bank from a very high-ranking whistleblower. Not Mario Draghi himself but somebody very close that the Greek Prime Minister my comrade and friend Tsipras had authorized a message to go through the Deputy Prime Minister to Draghi don't listen to Varoufakis we're not going to let him do it. So there was a plan. It would have worked. There would have been some compromise. Of course there would have been a compromise. Uh we would have to give stuff but we would get effectively the only thing that I cared for. The only reason why I became part of this struggle was to get Greeks out of debtors' prison. That we would have achieved. And in the final analysis so that was Plan B. And there was a Plan X. Plan X was the Drachma. Because yes it is true that we would have lost not thirty twenty
Slavoj Žižek
percent of GDP again. Uh but we would recover relatively quickly within eighteen to twenty months.
percent of GDP again. Uh but we would recover relatively quickly within eighteen to twenty months.
unknown
Uh because in the end at the moment after all those years our income now in Greece is lower than it was in and our debt is much much higher and we are a debt colony. We would have stopped being a debt colony. So no regrets for anything. Except that I was a bit too lenient with the Troika. Okay. Uh just two and then we went to other topics. Two or maybe even just one how do you call it sub question. Okay. Uh the obvious Stalinist one who sees conspiracies that's me. Why did Tsipras do it? I have no Look I have an ideological objection to giving a shit. This is between him and his maker as the Christians would say. Why should I care about what he did? Why
Uh because in the end at the moment after all those years our income now in Greece is lower than it was in and our debt is much much higher and we are a debt colony. We would have stopped being a debt colony. So no regrets for anything. Except that I was a bit too lenient with the Troika. Okay. Uh just two and then we went to other topics. Two or maybe even just one how do you call it sub question. Okay. Uh the obvious Stalinist one who sees conspiracies that's me. Why did Tsipras do it? I have no Look I have an ideological objection to giving a shit. This is between him and his maker as the Christians would say. Why should I care about what he did? Why
unknown
he did it? He did it. That's the only thing that
he did it? He did it. That's the only thing that
Slavoj Žižek
matters. Why he did it? No I didn't mean to dwell into his psychology but was not
matters. Why he did it? No I didn't mean to dwell into his psychology but was not
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were some no what I meant is was there pressure from some Greek banking
were some no what I meant is was there pressure from some Greek banking
Slavoj Žižek
circles? Of course there was pressure.
circles? Of course there was pressure.
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I had pressure. I mean can you imagine the pressure? The pressure was unbelievable. Threats to our family, pressure galore. But why were we elected? We were elected knowing that that pressure would be there. It's like saying you know you go to war and suddenly you you're scared. Of course you're scared it's war. If you're not scared if you if you don't want to be scared don't go to war. You get elected to be Prime Minister on the basis that you are proposing the escape the mass escape from the debtors' prison. Deal with your your fear. Don't succumb to it and do not surrender. Uh just another sub
I had pressure. I mean can you imagine the pressure? The pressure was unbelievable. Threats to our family, pressure galore. But why were we elected? We were elected knowing that that pressure would be there. It's like saying you know you go to war and suddenly you you're scared. Of course you're scared it's war. If you're not scared if you if you don't want to be scared don't go to war. You get elected to be Prime Minister on the basis that you are proposing the escape the mass escape from the debtors' prison. Deal with your your fear. Don't succumb to it and do not surrender. Uh just another sub
Slavoj Žižek
sub question concerning all this debt debt stuff uh and so on. Or maybe we should I'm not sure how far we should go here. Okay. Okay let's stop with this line and go to the next point. Big question. Which is because I don't want to get lost in this. It is uh all these affairs of Greece and so on. What I attracted me to you what I liked I remember meeting you those in those years was that okay first nonetheless the sub question. But didn't you write in your book that with that half-pornographic title Only for the Adults or whatever whatever didn't you write in that book that when you threatened Schäuble I think we will do Grexit that he basically told you okay do it we give you
sub question concerning all this debt debt stuff uh and so on. Or maybe we should I'm not sure how far we should go here. Okay. Okay let's stop with this line and go to the next point. Big question. Which is because I don't want to get lost in this. It is uh all these affairs of Greece and so on. What I attracted me to you what I liked I remember meeting you those in those years was that okay first nonetheless the sub question. But didn't you write in your book that with that half-pornographic title Only for the Adults or whatever whatever didn't you write in that book that when you threatened Schäuble I think we will do Grexit that he basically told you okay do it we give you
unknown
thirty billion? No no no that Tsipras said that I never said that. Ah sorry I thought it's you my mistake. No that's Tsipras' excuse that when we threatened him with Grexit it was his wish. That's you know that's just a big huge fat lie. Oh okay. We never threatened with Grexit. Uh I knew that Schäuble wanted Grexit. Remember my strategy was always to exploit the ruptures and the contradictions within the system. Hm yeah of course. Okay so one was the clash between the European Central Bank and the Bundesbank. The other one major one was the clash between the Chancellor Angela Merkel and the Finance Minister Wolfgang Schäuble. Ah they were not on the same Oh the it was
thirty billion? No no no that Tsipras said that I never said that. Ah sorry I thought it's you my mistake. No that's Tsipras' excuse that when we threatened him with Grexit it was his wish. That's you know that's just a big huge fat lie. Oh okay. We never threatened with Grexit. Uh I knew that Schäuble wanted Grexit. Remember my strategy was always to exploit the ruptures and the contradictions within the system. Hm yeah of course. Okay so one was the clash between the European Central Bank and the Bundesbank. The other one major one was the clash between the Chancellor Angela Merkel and the Finance Minister Wolfgang Schäuble. Ah they were not on the same Oh the it was
Slavoj Žižek
the mightiest of clashes. It was worse than the clash between Greece and the Troika, the clash between Schäuble and Merkel. You
the mightiest of clashes. It was worse than the clash between Greece and the Troika, the clash between Schäuble and Merkel. You
unknown
should hear him speak about her privately to you I mean yeah. You don't I'm not going to delve into it. But it was a a clear difference of opinion. Merkel and Draghi wanted to keep Greece in in a debtors' prison. Schäuble wanted to keep Greece out in order to send a signal to Paris this is what you get if you want to use the Deutsche Mark the Euro same thing right? and you don't do as you are told. It was really very you know a very clear difference of opinion. Schäuble was the one who proposed to me Grexit. I never threatened him with Grexit. All I said was I am not taking another credit card from you mate. Because we were bankrupt since
should hear him speak about her privately to you I mean yeah. You don't I'm not going to delve into it. But it was a a clear difference of opinion. Merkel and Draghi wanted to keep Greece in in a debtors' prison. Schäuble wanted to keep Greece out in order to send a signal to Paris this is what you get if you want to use the Deutsche Mark the Euro same thing right? and you don't do as you are told. It was really very you know a very clear difference of opinion. Schäuble was the one who proposed to me Grexit. I never threatened him with Grexit. All I said was I am not taking another credit card from you mate. Because we were bankrupt since
unknown
and the crime against logic that was being imposed upon Greece by the Troika was they forced us to pretend we're not bankrupt and the only way you can force somebody to pretend they're not bankrupt is by forcing them to lend to borrow more money. And under conditions of austerity that shrinks your income which was not enough to pay the previous debts let alone the new debts. Okay? So I was saying to him I'm not signing. You know imagine you you know you owe money to the bank. You can't repay because your income's come down. And you go to the bank and you say let's restructure my debt. Reduce the amount of debt so I can pay it because if you ask me to pay I'll go bankrupt and you'll get nothing. This is what bankers do every day. Imagine if the bank were to say I'm going to give you another a credit card from which you're going to draw money with an interest hefty interest to repay the previous credit cards but the condition for giving you that new credit card is that you will shrink your income. You would look at the bank and say you have gone completely nuts as if I'm going to say that. As if I'm going to say yes to that. So my line to Schäuble was I'm not taking another credit card pretending that I'm going to pay you back on condition of destroying what is left of my people. And his argument was okay you're right this doesn't work. He confessed that what he was proposing to us what the Troika was pushing down our throats would never work. Lagarde confessed that to me too. Um her argument was yes but you you're right but you know you have to do what you're told because otherwise your credibility as a politician's going to suffer. I thought yeah who gives a shit what my credibility as a politician suffers or doesn't suffer. Um so when Schäuble says to me it doesn't work I said okay so why are you pushing it down my throat if it doesn't work and we agree on that what works? And he said get out of the Euro. Oh yeah. And that at that point at that point I exploited and a think effectively the clash between Merkel and Schäuble. The moment he said to me and that's in my book the moment he said to me get out of the euro I said Wolfgang you're a great believer in democratic legitimacy. He kept on talking about the importance of legitimacy. I said do you have a mandate from your chancellor to say this to me? He said no not yet. I said hang on a second I take I take my phone out and I call Tsipras in front of him. Put it on speakerphone. I said Wolfgang just said to me that he proposed that we get out of the euro and that a large part of the debt is written off of course if you don't have euros you don't pay in euros you pay in souvlaki right? You know or pistachios or something. Um I've got a question for you Alexi do you authorize me to have this discussion with him? And he said mm yeah okay but not that we are accepting it just authorize to find out what he is offering. In front of Wolfgang. Put the phone down. Your turn. He said oh I can't I'm not going to speak to her now I'm going to speak to her tomorrow I'll call you back. And we talked again a couple of days later so
and the crime against logic that was being imposed upon Greece by the Troika was they forced us to pretend we're not bankrupt and the only way you can force somebody to pretend they're not bankrupt is by forcing them to lend to borrow more money. And under conditions of austerity that shrinks your income which was not enough to pay the previous debts let alone the new debts. Okay? So I was saying to him I'm not signing. You know imagine you you know you owe money to the bank. You can't repay because your income's come down. And you go to the bank and you say let's restructure my debt. Reduce the amount of debt so I can pay it because if you ask me to pay I'll go bankrupt and you'll get nothing. This is what bankers do every day. Imagine if the bank were to say I'm going to give you another a credit card from which you're going to draw money with an interest hefty interest to repay the previous credit cards but the condition for giving you that new credit card is that you will shrink your income. You would look at the bank and say you have gone completely nuts as if I'm going to say that. As if I'm going to say yes to that. So my line to Schäuble was I'm not taking another credit card pretending that I'm going to pay you back on condition of destroying what is left of my people. And his argument was okay you're right this doesn't work. He confessed that what he was proposing to us what the Troika was pushing down our throats would never work. Lagarde confessed that to me too. Um her argument was yes but you you're right but you know you have to do what you're told because otherwise your credibility as a politician's going to suffer. I thought yeah who gives a shit what my credibility as a politician suffers or doesn't suffer. Um so when Schäuble says to me it doesn't work I said okay so why are you pushing it down my throat if it doesn't work and we agree on that what works? And he said get out of the Euro. Oh yeah. And that at that point at that point I exploited and a think effectively the clash between Merkel and Schäuble. The moment he said to me and that's in my book the moment he said to me get out of the euro I said Wolfgang you're a great believer in democratic legitimacy. He kept on talking about the importance of legitimacy. I said do you have a mandate from your chancellor to say this to me? He said no not yet. I said hang on a second I take I take my phone out and I call Tsipras in front of him. Put it on speakerphone. I said Wolfgang just said to me that he proposed that we get out of the euro and that a large part of the debt is written off of course if you don't have euros you don't pay in euros you pay in souvlaki right? You know or pistachios or something. Um I've got a question for you Alexi do you authorize me to have this discussion with him? And he said mm yeah okay but not that we are accepting it just authorize to find out what he is offering. In front of Wolfgang. Put the phone down. Your turn. He said oh I can't I'm not going to speak to her now I'm going to speak to her tomorrow I'll call you back. And we talked again a couple of days later so
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what happened? He said look I fear that if I tell her that she is not going to give the okay. So you know I was playing this that that game and in the end he never got the okay to discuss this with me. Okay? But you see this this is this is so Grexit was never their strategy. It was Schäuble's strategy and Merkel always vetoed it. Look in the end to cut a long story short I think that on the balance of probabilities if we and this is a delicious paradox, one of those that you love. If we were prepared to get out of the euro we wouldn't have to get out of the euro. If we were prepared to see it all the way to the end of the line because the threat was we'll throw you out, we'll shut your banks and then you will have to create your own currency. If we said yes as I was ready to do I'm going to do it I'm going to issue my own currency whatever the cost. You know freedom has no price. We will do it. If we were prepared to do it they would come to us at the eleventh hour begging us not to do it and we would have the debt haircut that we needed. So
what happened? He said look I fear that if I tell her that she is not going to give the okay. So you know I was playing this that that game and in the end he never got the okay to discuss this with me. Okay? But you see this this is this is so Grexit was never their strategy. It was Schäuble's strategy and Merkel always vetoed it. Look in the end to cut a long story short I think that on the balance of probabilities if we and this is a delicious paradox, one of those that you love. If we were prepared to get out of the euro we wouldn't have to get out of the euro. If we were prepared to see it all the way to the end of the line because the threat was we'll throw you out, we'll shut your banks and then you will have to create your own currency. If we said yes as I was ready to do I'm going to do it I'm going to issue my own currency whatever the cost. You know freedom has no price. We will do it. If we were prepared to do it they would come to us at the eleventh hour begging us not to do it and we would have the debt haircut that we needed. So
Slavoj Žižek
that was the plan that's what I wanted
that was the plan that's what I wanted
unknown
to hear yeah. That was the plan. But at the same time it was not bluffing because people say to me oh this is poker. No it's not poker. Because to bluff in in cards it means to pretend that you will that you have a power that you don't have. I was not pretending. I was going to take it all the way to the end with a Drachma. So I had a what in game theory we call a dominant strategy. A dominant strategy is one that you should follow or you should want to follow independently of what the other side does. Right? That that's not bluffing. It's the opposite. The definition of not bluffing.
to hear yeah. That was the plan. But at the same time it was not bluffing because people say to me oh this is poker. No it's not poker. Because to bluff in in cards it means to pretend that you will that you have a power that you don't have. I was not pretending. I was going to take it all the way to the end with a Drachma. So I had a what in game theory we call a dominant strategy. A dominant strategy is one that you should follow or you should want to follow independently of what the other side does. Right? That that's not bluffing. It's the opposite. The definition of not bluffing.
Slavoj Žižek
I would like to go on indefinitely here but let's go to the
I would like to go on indefinitely here but let's go to the
unknown
next because there is no just one just one question. No public intellectual discussion so far. Yeah
next because there is no just one just one question. No public intellectual discussion so far. Yeah
Slavoj Žižek
but for this when people that's to say me take power you get two years in gulag but that's another story. Seriously. So you think if I may quote the immortal comrade Stalin that in the choice Merkel versus Schäuble which was worse they were both worse. Or is there
but for this when people that's to say me take power you get two years in gulag but that's another story. Seriously. So you think if I may quote the immortal comrade Stalin that in the choice Merkel versus Schäuble which was worse they were both worse. Or is there
unknown
I preferred Schäuble anytime.
I preferred Schäuble anytime.
Slavoj Žižek
Ah. That's good to know
Ah. That's good to know
unknown
yes me too. Because because you see if he had if he was Chancellor he and I would have an agreement. We would get out of the euro. We would not end up in that prisons in that debtors' prison forever. Um or we wouldn't get out of the way. The one thing we agreed on because it was a a really dramatic moment it's captured in the movie by Costa-Gavras of Adults in the Room. It's I've tried to capture. Who plays you? Brad Pitt or who? A Greek guy. A Greek guy. Because because Costa-Gavras did it was going to be Ralph Fiennes by the way. Sorry? It was going to be Ralph Fiennes but then Costa-Gavras decided that he wants realism which is a very bad idea in art. Very bad idea yeah. And he wants realism in that when I when my character spoke to the Tsipras character
yes me too. Because because you see if he had if he was Chancellor he and I would have an agreement. We would get out of the euro. We would not end up in that prisons in that debtors' prison forever. Um or we wouldn't get out of the way. The one thing we agreed on because it was a a really dramatic moment it's captured in the movie by Costa-Gavras of Adults in the Room. It's I've tried to capture. Who plays you? Brad Pitt or who? A Greek guy. A Greek guy. Because because Costa-Gavras did it was going to be Ralph Fiennes by the way. Sorry? It was going to be Ralph Fiennes but then Costa-Gavras decided that he wants realism which is a very bad idea in art. Very bad idea yeah. And he wants realism in that when I when my character spoke to the Tsipras character
Slavoj Žižek
we should be speaking in fluent Greek and when I would speak to them it would be in English. So you know no non-Greek actor could ever do that right? So um but you know
we should be speaking in fluent Greek and when I would speak to them it would be in English. So you know no non-Greek actor could ever do that right? So um but you know
unknown
there was this moment when it was I believe it was June I was in the Finance Ministry in Berlin. By the way you know what that that building is. Sorry? Do you know what the building of the Ministry of Finance is? What is it? No don't care. You don't know. It's Goering's headquarters. That's what I know but I don't know where it is but this I knew yeah. It's the
there was this moment when it was I believe it was June I was in the Finance Ministry in Berlin. By the way you know what that that building is. Sorry? Do you know what the building of the Ministry of Finance is? What is it? No don't care. You don't know. It's Goering's headquarters. That's what I know but I don't know where it is but this I knew yeah. It's the
Slavoj Žižek
same building. It's mind-numbingly toxic to get into that building. You can feel the aura. And it's ugly as sin. I
same building. It's mind-numbingly toxic to get into that building. You can feel the aura. And it's ugly as sin. I
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mean anyway. Is sin ugly for you? Well this this is this is my Anglo-Saxon upbringing right? I didn't mean it sin is wonderful. Um okay so he was pushing me pushing me pushing me to sign and I kept saying no no no. And at some point I said he was becoming very assertive and I said look Wolfgang I'm not going to sign but I would like to ask you for a favor. You've been in this business for forty years in politics. I've been in this business for four months. Can I can we pretend for ten minutes that we're not ministers so that you can give me your advice not to order me what to do? He said okay. Very he sort of in a friendly manner and he was quite magnanimous at that moment and I said okay we're not ministers now. Tell me if you were me would you sign? And to my astonishment he looked outside the window for a while you know it's nerve-wracking and then he looked at me and at that moment I actually liked the man. He said as a patriot no. And then I said to him so why are you forcing me to? He says
mean anyway. Is sin ugly for you? Well this this is this is my Anglo-Saxon upbringing right? I didn't mean it sin is wonderful. Um okay so he was pushing me pushing me pushing me to sign and I kept saying no no no. And at some point I said he was becoming very assertive and I said look Wolfgang I'm not going to sign but I would like to ask you for a favor. You've been in this business for forty years in politics. I've been in this business for four months. Can I can we pretend for ten minutes that we're not ministers so that you can give me your advice not to order me what to do? He said okay. Very he sort of in a friendly manner and he was quite magnanimous at that moment and I said okay we're not ministers now. Tell me if you were me would you sign? And to my astonishment he looked outside the window for a while you know it's nerve-wracking and then he looked at me and at that moment I actually liked the man. He said as a patriot no. And then I said to him so why are you forcing me to? He says
Slavoj Žižek
don't you understand? What am I going to do with
don't you understand? What am I going to do with
unknown
Paris? They want to have the Deutsche Mark and they want to run their own national budget. You can't have both. So every time you use the Euro remember it's the Deutsche Mark. Don't mistake it for a European currency.
Paris? They want to have the Deutsche Mark and they want to run their own national budget. You can't have both. So every time you use the Euro remember it's the Deutsche Mark. Don't mistake it for a European currency.
Slavoj Žižek
Okay I'm so sorry we could go endlessly in this way but let's go to the next big just one remark which you will like. I remember that when we first met around that time I was immediately attracted by what you told me you told me and you repeated it now but not as brutally as I will say now that your message to Schäuble and so on was what I'm bringing you is the most rational way to get some of your money back. You are not playing this sentimental violin we are poor people. No no never. You wanted them to get some money back. You were honest
Okay I'm so sorry we could go endlessly in this way but let's go to the next big just one remark which you will like. I remember that when we first met around that time I was immediately attracted by what you told me you told me and you repeated it now but not as brutally as I will say now that your message to Schäuble and so on was what I'm bringing you is the most rational way to get some of your money back. You are not playing this sentimental violin we are poor people. No no never. You wanted them to get some money back. You were honest
unknown
here. You know you know have you heard of Amartya Sen the economist Indian economist. Nice guy. Very very clever guy. Um
here. You know you know have you heard of Amartya Sen the economist Indian economist. Nice guy. Very very clever guy. Um
Slavoj Žižek
I have problems with Indians but that's my racism
I have problems with Indians but that's my racism
unknown
okay yeah. He he's a smart man and I met him in London um after the the end of this period when I had resigned and he said you know Yanis what your problem was he had gotten it. He said you were negotiating with creditors who did not want their money back. Yeah yeah that's yeah. Yeah they didn't want their money back they wanted to crush us. In which case we should simply have agreed to get out of the Euro. But you know at the same time Merkel who was above that she had a good concept of what was at stake because she had German manufacturers Volkswagen Siemens and so on holding her to not letting the Euro crash because the last thing that
okay yeah. He he's a smart man and I met him in London um after the the end of this period when I had resigned and he said you know Yanis what your problem was he had gotten it. He said you were negotiating with creditors who did not want their money back. Yeah yeah that's yeah. Yeah they didn't want their money back they wanted to crush us. In which case we should simply have agreed to get out of the Euro. But you know at the same time Merkel who was above that she had a good concept of what was at stake because she had German manufacturers Volkswagen Siemens and so on holding her to not letting the Euro crash because the last thing that
unknown
they wanted was the recreation of the Italian national currency the Lira. Hm because they hated the Lira before Why? Because every time Volkswagen became slightly more competitive than the equivalent Fiat the Italian Central Bank would devalue the Lira and make it cheaper and German industrialists hated that. So you know Merkel had them in mind whereas Schäuble had a more hegemonic
they wanted was the recreation of the Italian national currency the Lira. Hm because they hated the Lira before Why? Because every time Volkswagen became slightly more competitive than the equivalent Fiat the Italian Central Bank would devalue the Lira and make it cheaper and German industrialists hated that. So you know Merkel had them in mind whereas Schäuble had a more hegemonic
Slavoj Žižek
power game in his mind. Okay now we you already approached the second question where I am even more if this is possible on your side as it's already clear with this wonderful paradox paradoxical formula that you propose that you have a creditor who does not want you to repay the debt. Isn't it we talked about this often one of the features of I don't know how to call it new phase in the world order where as you told me we no longer live in this traditional neoliberal market order and so on and so on. You I remember we were talking even on phone you remember that moment I think it was in the spring or summer of when on the almost the same day that the numbers came out from United Kingdom and United States of how the production fell down stock market went up. And then you say there is something tremendous happening now in capitalism it's no longer the old market profit productivity and so on.
power game in his mind. Okay now we you already approached the second question where I am even more if this is possible on your side as it's already clear with this wonderful paradox paradoxical formula that you propose that you have a creditor who does not want you to repay the debt. Isn't it we talked about this often one of the features of I don't know how to call it new phase in the world order where as you told me we no longer live in this traditional neoliberal market order and so on and so on. You I remember we were talking even on phone you remember that moment I think it was in the spring or summer of when on the almost the same day that the numbers came out from United Kingdom and United States of how the production fell down stock market went up. And then you say there is something tremendous happening now in capitalism it's no longer the old market profit productivity and so on.
unknown
It's no longer capitalism.
It's no longer capitalism.
Slavoj Žižek
Can you develop this?
Can you develop this?
unknown
Yeah. I'll I'll go back to that date you thank you for reminding me. It was the 12th 12th of August Not last August the previous one. o'clock in the morning in London the news came out that the national income of Britain GDP as it's called had fallen by more than twenty percent. That had never happened before in the history of capitalism British GDP falling in one year by twenty-one percent or so. Never. It was not anticipated. The markets were expecting a fall of eight nine ten percent twenty percent no one. No one. Fifteen or to sixteen minutes later the stock exchange the London stock exchange goes up by three percent. There can be no explanation of that along the lines of capitalism right? One explanation would have been if the markets were already factoring in expecting a ten percent decline and it was um eight percent things were better than expected so the stock exchange might have gone up. But to expect ten percent and to have twenty percent and the stock exchange to go up something else was going on. I know what it is I'll tell you what it is. Since the great financial crash capitalism is on a drip feed. It's being kept alive through constant injections of money from the central banks. That has never happened before it started in In it didn't happen that's why all the banks closed down. Um so the banking system and the stock exchange had twelve years of getting used to becoming addicted to central bank money being pumped their way during difficult moments. So imagine you're a stockbroker in London. You hear the news at o'clock in the morning. Minus twenty percent! Oh my God you think that's the first thought. Then you think ah if I panicked the guys and girls in the Bank of England the Central Bank of England are panicking. So what they're going to do is they're going to print even more
Yeah. I'll I'll go back to that date you thank you for reminding me. It was the 12th 12th of August Not last August the previous one. o'clock in the morning in London the news came out that the national income of Britain GDP as it's called had fallen by more than twenty percent. That had never happened before in the history of capitalism British GDP falling in one year by twenty-one percent or so. Never. It was not anticipated. The markets were expecting a fall of eight nine ten percent twenty percent no one. No one. Fifteen or to sixteen minutes later the stock exchange the London stock exchange goes up by three percent. There can be no explanation of that along the lines of capitalism right? One explanation would have been if the markets were already factoring in expecting a ten percent decline and it was um eight percent things were better than expected so the stock exchange might have gone up. But to expect ten percent and to have twenty percent and the stock exchange to go up something else was going on. I know what it is I'll tell you what it is. Since the great financial crash capitalism is on a drip feed. It's being kept alive through constant injections of money from the central banks. That has never happened before it started in In it didn't happen that's why all the banks closed down. Um so the banking system and the stock exchange had twelve years of getting used to becoming addicted to central bank money being pumped their way during difficult moments. So imagine you're a stockbroker in London. You hear the news at o'clock in the morning. Minus twenty percent! Oh my God you think that's the first thought. Then you think ah if I panicked the guys and girls in the Bank of England the Central Bank of England are panicking. So what they're going to do is they're going to print even more
unknown
billions and they will give it to me to play in the stock exchange. Buy! So the the point I've been developing in my head and we had a little discussion about this earlier because I was telling Slavoj that this will be my next book next year. It's my crazy theory that capitalism has already evolved out of itself. We it has been transformed into another system. Uh and the reason why I say that is because for me capitalism requires two things. Firstly profit to drive it. It's like you know a petrol engine that needs petrol. Capitalism needs profit private profit to drive it. Capital accumulation as we Marxists used to say okay? And the other thing is that exploitation takes place in markets. That's the whole point about capitalism. In feudalism there was no market exploitation. You had the peasants they were growing rubbish wheat and potatoes and cauliflower I don't know what it is that they were growing and then the sheriff on behalf of the Lord would come and take half of it or sixty percent whatever. There was no market it was just exploitation expropriation. It is with the enclosures and the eviction of the peasants who then become suppliers of labor at any price that you have the creation of the working class and the labor market. There was no labor market before that. Okay? So market exploitation takes place through markets. Money markets, land markets, house markets, labor markets. But now after twelve years of the crisis and beyond we have the replacement of profit by central bank money. That is the new fuel of the system of this exploitative system. And the steady encroachment into the space of markets of platforms. Amazon. The moment you go into Amazon or Facebook the moment you enter Facebook you're outside of capitalism you're not in capitalism anymore. Because explain. You go into Facebook right? Let's say you want to to sell your stuff to advertise your business in Facebook. You go in you pay you use your credit card you pay money to Zuckerberg and some more people see your your advertisements. Right? Um you go in there to meet your friends. Uh you want to advertise um this this evening. You go and pay money. It's one person owns the whole digital space. It is the equivalent of stepping out in Ljubljana. Imagine yeah just science fiction for a moment. Imagine you step out in Ljubljana on the streets of Ljubljana today. And you look around and you think oh my God all these buildings belong to one person. Everything that is traded in the shops that I see is controlled by one person who decides what prices are charged, what prices are not charged, who can trade, who can't trade, who can buy who can't buy. And moreover imagine that Ljubljana operated like Facebook does or Amazon does whereby what your eyes see is determined by one person by the algorithm of one person who if he wants you not to see something you will never see it in that digital space. This is not a market. This is a fief, a fiefdom. It's a digital fiefdom. It's a platform. Those platforms make a lot of money. But the rest of the economy look at companies like Uber for instance they've never made a profit ever. You have private equity have you heard of private equity? Do you know what private equity does? They go and buy a company let's say a company that provides health
billions and they will give it to me to play in the stock exchange. Buy! So the the point I've been developing in my head and we had a little discussion about this earlier because I was telling Slavoj that this will be my next book next year. It's my crazy theory that capitalism has already evolved out of itself. We it has been transformed into another system. Uh and the reason why I say that is because for me capitalism requires two things. Firstly profit to drive it. It's like you know a petrol engine that needs petrol. Capitalism needs profit private profit to drive it. Capital accumulation as we Marxists used to say okay? And the other thing is that exploitation takes place in markets. That's the whole point about capitalism. In feudalism there was no market exploitation. You had the peasants they were growing rubbish wheat and potatoes and cauliflower I don't know what it is that they were growing and then the sheriff on behalf of the Lord would come and take half of it or sixty percent whatever. There was no market it was just exploitation expropriation. It is with the enclosures and the eviction of the peasants who then become suppliers of labor at any price that you have the creation of the working class and the labor market. There was no labor market before that. Okay? So market exploitation takes place through markets. Money markets, land markets, house markets, labor markets. But now after twelve years of the crisis and beyond we have the replacement of profit by central bank money. That is the new fuel of the system of this exploitative system. And the steady encroachment into the space of markets of platforms. Amazon. The moment you go into Amazon or Facebook the moment you enter Facebook you're outside of capitalism you're not in capitalism anymore. Because explain. You go into Facebook right? Let's say you want to to sell your stuff to advertise your business in Facebook. You go in you pay you use your credit card you pay money to Zuckerberg and some more people see your your advertisements. Right? Um you go in there to meet your friends. Uh you want to advertise um this this evening. You go and pay money. It's one person owns the whole digital space. It is the equivalent of stepping out in Ljubljana. Imagine yeah just science fiction for a moment. Imagine you step out in Ljubljana on the streets of Ljubljana today. And you look around and you think oh my God all these buildings belong to one person. Everything that is traded in the shops that I see is controlled by one person who decides what prices are charged, what prices are not charged, who can trade, who can't trade, who can buy who can't buy. And moreover imagine that Ljubljana operated like Facebook does or Amazon does whereby what your eyes see is determined by one person by the algorithm of one person who if he wants you not to see something you will never see it in that digital space. This is not a market. This is a fief, a fiefdom. It's a digital fiefdom. It's a platform. Those platforms make a lot of money. But the rest of the economy look at companies like Uber for instance they've never made a profit ever. You have private equity have you heard of private equity? Do you know what private equity does? They go and buy a company let's say a company that provides health
unknown
services. It's got doctors and nurses and stuff private. So they buy the hospital they buy the the company and then they create two companies. One that owns the buildings and all the fixed assets and the other that provides the services. And the second company sells the services to the first company. The first company has assets buildings so they go to the bank and they get a huge loan using as collateral the buildings of the first company. They take this money and they give it to themselves they pay themselves. They give it to the shareholders. They pocket it they put it in their money. Now the this whole company will never have a profit because the second company will owe huge quantities of money to the first company and therefore they will never pay any tax because if you have no profits there is no tax. But you know the whole point about profitability is coming out very soon after that this is an empty shell this will go bankrupt it will die. So platforms are expanding even in health. Facebook is now privatizing the National Health Service in Britain without anybody knowing. Google is doing the same thing behind the scenes. By the way DiEM25 our movement is beginning a campaign on Monday in Britain against the um surreptitious privatization of the NHS by Big Tech. close bracket. So you see platforms are expanding they're not markets and markets are shrinking and central bank money sovereign money the d'Ofens money because they are d'Ofens the governments they have no power but their printing presses are keeping the system alive. I call this techno-feudalism. And it's not just a question of curiosity about how the system works it's also a question of what does this mean for daily life? What does it mean for all of us? What does it mean for governments? I'll tell you what it means as an economist for a start it means that none of the fiscal monetary policies that used to work work. Because when you platforms replace markets and everything depends on the central bank money if I make you the head of the European Central Bank tomorrow you are the most slavish follower of the needs of business. You have no independence you have no authority if if you even if you want to reduce the amount of money euros that the ECB prints you can't do it the moment you do it the whole thing will collapse. That's not Central Bank independence that's dependence. Um it means that you know our governments are completely in the clasps of the interests of these large fiefdoms and they have tiny degrees of freedom regarding fiscal policy regarding redistribution of wealth when all the wealth is encased and enclosed in the new uh fiefdoms. But also when and here is something that it would be nice to talk a little bit more about look under standard capitalism you have a working class which is exploited during the working time and then they go home and that's time for themselves. Today you have a proletariat a working class which is shrinking shrinking shrinking and increasingly everybody is producing capital directly for these fiefdoms. Every time you have your phone and you walk around Google knows where you are and that enriches the software of Google Maps. It adds your movements add capital to Google. You are not a shareholder, you don't get shares for that capital, they get it. Right? Um with the pandemic we've seen how work and leisure have been completely decoupled and how with
services. It's got doctors and nurses and stuff private. So they buy the hospital they buy the the company and then they create two companies. One that owns the buildings and all the fixed assets and the other that provides the services. And the second company sells the services to the first company. The first company has assets buildings so they go to the bank and they get a huge loan using as collateral the buildings of the first company. They take this money and they give it to themselves they pay themselves. They give it to the shareholders. They pocket it they put it in their money. Now the this whole company will never have a profit because the second company will owe huge quantities of money to the first company and therefore they will never pay any tax because if you have no profits there is no tax. But you know the whole point about profitability is coming out very soon after that this is an empty shell this will go bankrupt it will die. So platforms are expanding even in health. Facebook is now privatizing the National Health Service in Britain without anybody knowing. Google is doing the same thing behind the scenes. By the way DiEM25 our movement is beginning a campaign on Monday in Britain against the um surreptitious privatization of the NHS by Big Tech. close bracket. So you see platforms are expanding they're not markets and markets are shrinking and central bank money sovereign money the d'Ofens money because they are d'Ofens the governments they have no power but their printing presses are keeping the system alive. I call this techno-feudalism. And it's not just a question of curiosity about how the system works it's also a question of what does this mean for daily life? What does it mean for all of us? What does it mean for governments? I'll tell you what it means as an economist for a start it means that none of the fiscal monetary policies that used to work work. Because when you platforms replace markets and everything depends on the central bank money if I make you the head of the European Central Bank tomorrow you are the most slavish follower of the needs of business. You have no independence you have no authority if if you even if you want to reduce the amount of money euros that the ECB prints you can't do it the moment you do it the whole thing will collapse. That's not Central Bank independence that's dependence. Um it means that you know our governments are completely in the clasps of the interests of these large fiefdoms and they have tiny degrees of freedom regarding fiscal policy regarding redistribution of wealth when all the wealth is encased and enclosed in the new uh fiefdoms. But also when and here is something that it would be nice to talk a little bit more about look under standard capitalism you have a working class which is exploited during the working time and then they go home and that's time for themselves. Today you have a proletariat a working class which is shrinking shrinking shrinking and increasingly everybody is producing capital directly for these fiefdoms. Every time you have your phone and you walk around Google knows where you are and that enriches the software of Google Maps. It adds your movements add capital to Google. You are not a shareholder, you don't get shares for that capital, they get it. Right? Um with the pandemic we've seen how work and leisure have been completely decoupled and how with
unknown
these digital fiefdoms technologies it is impossible to even escape for a moment the vestiges of work. It follows you. You know your boss expects you to be checking your app in at midnight. And you yourself check your app even if your boss doesn't want you to check your app. You become self-enslaved. And the most important the most important value of liberalism which is personal sovereignty goes. Think of the youngsters you know I used to be a professor up until a few years ago I still am in in name but I look at today's youth and what I find is young people lacking the sovereignty that the liberal democratic system has promised them. I see them for instance take on courses that they know are rubbish just to add to the CV. I see them constantly trying to improve their social ratings in Twitter, in Instagram, because they are selling themselves constantly. They are creating a profile that makes them because they know that the moment they go in for an interview that the interviewing panel is going to check their social uh media profile. So it's a constant struggle to build up a profile along the lines of the expectations of some fictitious for future employer. That is slavery. The complete collapse of the private space that liberals value so much. These are the reasons why for me techno-feudalism you know is um such a menace. And the worst part of it is that when I try to when I speak of this do you know who really loathes my thesis more than anybody else? The Left. Because we leftists grew up with this ambition that we would bring capitalism down. And here I am telling them that you know what we are out of time. Capitalism has brought itself down and it's been replaced by something far worse, not by socialism. The Left does not want to listen to that. They really loathe that message.
these digital fiefdoms technologies it is impossible to even escape for a moment the vestiges of work. It follows you. You know your boss expects you to be checking your app in at midnight. And you yourself check your app even if your boss doesn't want you to check your app. You become self-enslaved. And the most important the most important value of liberalism which is personal sovereignty goes. Think of the youngsters you know I used to be a professor up until a few years ago I still am in in name but I look at today's youth and what I find is young people lacking the sovereignty that the liberal democratic system has promised them. I see them for instance take on courses that they know are rubbish just to add to the CV. I see them constantly trying to improve their social ratings in Twitter, in Instagram, because they are selling themselves constantly. They are creating a profile that makes them because they know that the moment they go in for an interview that the interviewing panel is going to check their social uh media profile. So it's a constant struggle to build up a profile along the lines of the expectations of some fictitious for future employer. That is slavery. The complete collapse of the private space that liberals value so much. These are the reasons why for me techno-feudalism you know is um such a menace. And the worst part of it is that when I try to when I speak of this do you know who really loathes my thesis more than anybody else? The Left. Because we leftists grew up with this ambition that we would bring capitalism down. And here I am telling them that you know what we are out of time. Capitalism has brought itself down and it's been replaced by something far worse, not by socialism. The Left does not want to listen to that. They really loathe that message.
Slavoj Žižek
Perfect. Now we are going in the right direction. A sub question. A sub question. I know there are many answers to this but you are for me for the time being some kind of subject supposed to know so one of the enigmas from a very superficial standpoint I know there are many explanations I want to hear yours is with all this money thrown in why is there no inflation? Do you think now there are only lately some fears of inflation. What's your answer to the inflation
Perfect. Now we are going in the right direction. A sub question. A sub question. I know there are many answers to this but you are for me for the time being some kind of subject supposed to know so one of the enigmas from a very superficial standpoint I know there are many explanations I want to hear yours is with all this money thrown in why is there no inflation? Do you think now there are only lately some fears of inflation. What's your answer to the inflation
unknown
problem? Okay. Between and the pandemic we had the constant manufacture of mountain ranges of money that was thrown into the economy. The traditional monetarist right-wing economists were saying oh this is going to create inflation. No. Zero inflation. The central banks were struggling to create inflation they couldn't. They were pumping money into the economy hoping prices would go up. They wouldn't. Prices would be stagnant or falling. Why was that the case? Yeah. Well that that and while wealth was going up. Wealth
problem? Okay. Between and the pandemic we had the constant manufacture of mountain ranges of money that was thrown into the economy. The traditional monetarist right-wing economists were saying oh this is going to create inflation. No. Zero inflation. The central banks were struggling to create inflation they couldn't. They were pumping money into the economy hoping prices would go up. They wouldn't. Prices would be stagnant or falling. Why was that the case? Yeah. Well that that and while wealth was going up. Wealth
unknown
of the very very few. Because think about it. was our complete collapse of the financial sector. Immediately a recession, very low investment, very low demand, high low quality jobs. As David Graeber called them bullshit jobs. Okay? So that was the scene since The Central Bank prints money. What is the theory of quantitative easing as it's called? Money printing. The up until the idea was that if you want to stimulate the economy through the Central Bank you reduce interest rates. Well you can't reduce them when they are at zero. I mean you can you can take them to zero minus point five. But if you take them to minus three percent would you keep money in the bank if you lost three percent every every month? So nobody the banking system will be destroyed. So they reached the lower zero bound and then they had to do something to stimulate further. So they started printing money. But the thing is in capitalism as we had it in the last one hundred years since the creation of the Fed the Central Bank of the United States and so on. The legal structure is this. You have a Central Bank. The Central Bank is not other like other banks you and I cannot have accounts with the Central Bank but the banks have an account with the Central Bank. So all the commercial banks have an account with the Central Bank. The Central Bank if it wants to create money it effectively gives an overdraft facility it types numbers you know few billion into the accounts of the commercial banks hoping that the commercial banks will get that money. It's free money. to lend it to businesses who who are then going to take it and invest it you know hire people invest in machinery education training and so on. Right? That's the theory. What's the reality? The reality and I have witnessed that I have to tell you. The reality is this. Take the European Central Bank. I could take the Fed or any other but we're in the Eurozone so I'll take the European Central Bank. The European Central Bank somebody from the office the staff calls up Deutsche Bank says um I've got a couple of trillion euros. I will give it to you at minus zero point five interest rate. You know what that means? I will pay you to take it. I will pay you point five percent to take it. I mean who who in the right mind says no? Imagine if I were to say to you I'm going to pay you to take money off my hands. So Deutsche Bank says give it to me. Now Deutsche Bank looks at all the people out there who suffer austerity who have bullshit jobs and says yeah as if I'm going to lend it to them. I will never get it back. So you know what Deutsche Bank does? Picks up the phone and calls Volkswagen, Siemens, Alstom, Google, Apple, huh? And they say um would you like some free money? I've got a few billion here I'll give it to you for free. Zero. The Deutsche Bank has already made a profit. It's been being paid for by the Central Bank to take it and it's giving it away for free. You know it's a very easy life for those for those people. Volkswagen already by the way Google you know Apple Apple has two hundred and ten
of the very very few. Because think about it. was our complete collapse of the financial sector. Immediately a recession, very low investment, very low demand, high low quality jobs. As David Graeber called them bullshit jobs. Okay? So that was the scene since The Central Bank prints money. What is the theory of quantitative easing as it's called? Money printing. The up until the idea was that if you want to stimulate the economy through the Central Bank you reduce interest rates. Well you can't reduce them when they are at zero. I mean you can you can take them to zero minus point five. But if you take them to minus three percent would you keep money in the bank if you lost three percent every every month? So nobody the banking system will be destroyed. So they reached the lower zero bound and then they had to do something to stimulate further. So they started printing money. But the thing is in capitalism as we had it in the last one hundred years since the creation of the Fed the Central Bank of the United States and so on. The legal structure is this. You have a Central Bank. The Central Bank is not other like other banks you and I cannot have accounts with the Central Bank but the banks have an account with the Central Bank. So all the commercial banks have an account with the Central Bank. The Central Bank if it wants to create money it effectively gives an overdraft facility it types numbers you know few billion into the accounts of the commercial banks hoping that the commercial banks will get that money. It's free money. to lend it to businesses who who are then going to take it and invest it you know hire people invest in machinery education training and so on. Right? That's the theory. What's the reality? The reality and I have witnessed that I have to tell you. The reality is this. Take the European Central Bank. I could take the Fed or any other but we're in the Eurozone so I'll take the European Central Bank. The European Central Bank somebody from the office the staff calls up Deutsche Bank says um I've got a couple of trillion euros. I will give it to you at minus zero point five interest rate. You know what that means? I will pay you to take it. I will pay you point five percent to take it. I mean who who in the right mind says no? Imagine if I were to say to you I'm going to pay you to take money off my hands. So Deutsche Bank says give it to me. Now Deutsche Bank looks at all the people out there who suffer austerity who have bullshit jobs and says yeah as if I'm going to lend it to them. I will never get it back. So you know what Deutsche Bank does? Picks up the phone and calls Volkswagen, Siemens, Alstom, Google, Apple, huh? And they say um would you like some free money? I've got a few billion here I'll give it to you for free. Zero. The Deutsche Bank has already made a profit. It's been being paid for by the Central Bank to take it and it's giving it away for free. You know it's a very easy life for those for those people. Volkswagen already by the way Google you know Apple Apple has two hundred and ten
unknown
billion dollars of savings. Just just stating
billion dollars of savings. Just just stating
unknown
that you know there's something really wrong with capitalism because companies should never save. You and I should save and companies should borrow it from us to
that you know there's something really wrong with capitalism because companies should never save. You and I should save and companies should borrow it from us to
unknown
invest. When the companies have billions of savings there is something wrong. close bracket again. But nevertheless you know Volkswagen has billions in the bank which is not investing it's too fearful. Why is Volkswagen not investing? They could have created a Tesla competitor. But they look at you folks and say yeah as if they will be able to buy it. The useless poor folks. They can't afford to to pay a hundred thousand euros for a top-of-the-range Tesla competitor. So instead they do something simpler. They take the money from Deutsche Bank and they go to the Frankfurt stock exchange and you know what they do? They buy Volkswagen shares. Volkswagen buys Volkswagen shares. Guess what happens to the share price? Goes up. Their own salaries the Volkswagen directors are linked to the share price. So they get money out of that. Personal money not as a company. And they go to Berlin and they buy a nice apartment. House prices go up. So if you have apartments in Berlin you benefit from that too. So there is a lot of asset price inflation but the little people out there don't have money to buy anything so there's no price inflation. So that was the situation up until now. Now things are getting slightly demented and different. What happened was COVID-19. During this period of globalization of yeah the neoliberal story not the reality the story. Um whereas upon a time once upon a time you had you know a car that was being made in two plants. There was a plant here making engines and another one making the chassis and the car and then they would bring them together. In the last thirty years I was reading about that a Nissan Qashqai made in Newcastle in North England was made in a hundred and twenty different places and the um the the fender the protective piece of plastic at the front crisscrossed between Britain and and the continent thirty-five times before it was completed. First it would go as metal then they would do something and then it would go back then they would put some lights on then it would go back. So this is what I mean by supply chains. Lots of transporting. Yeah. Um and a supply network that was working like a Swiss watch. Beautifully. Everything measured to the last moment just in moment you know no no storage no warehouses to save on money. So it would be a system that worked like clockwork you know you would need a shock absorber and suddenly the shock absorber would arrive in a truck. You wouldn't have to store it anywhere. Okay. But the moment COVID-19 hit and the governments pressed the stop button all those factories stopped working. Now the ships that were the container ships that were carrying stuff from China to Los Angeles you know industrial goods, iPhones, right? whatever. They were in mid-journey. They were in the middle of the Pacific they couldn't stop so they went to Los Angeles. They all accumulated in Los Angeles. They got there the ports were were not working, nothing was working, they got stuck there. Okay? Similarly the um the tankers carrying LNG liquid gas from Qatar to China continued and then ended up in China unloaded the LNG. Right? Stayed there. Then when they pressed the green button again for the
invest. When the companies have billions of savings there is something wrong. close bracket again. But nevertheless you know Volkswagen has billions in the bank which is not investing it's too fearful. Why is Volkswagen not investing? They could have created a Tesla competitor. But they look at you folks and say yeah as if they will be able to buy it. The useless poor folks. They can't afford to to pay a hundred thousand euros for a top-of-the-range Tesla competitor. So instead they do something simpler. They take the money from Deutsche Bank and they go to the Frankfurt stock exchange and you know what they do? They buy Volkswagen shares. Volkswagen buys Volkswagen shares. Guess what happens to the share price? Goes up. Their own salaries the Volkswagen directors are linked to the share price. So they get money out of that. Personal money not as a company. And they go to Berlin and they buy a nice apartment. House prices go up. So if you have apartments in Berlin you benefit from that too. So there is a lot of asset price inflation but the little people out there don't have money to buy anything so there's no price inflation. So that was the situation up until now. Now things are getting slightly demented and different. What happened was COVID-19. During this period of globalization of yeah the neoliberal story not the reality the story. Um whereas upon a time once upon a time you had you know a car that was being made in two plants. There was a plant here making engines and another one making the chassis and the car and then they would bring them together. In the last thirty years I was reading about that a Nissan Qashqai made in Newcastle in North England was made in a hundred and twenty different places and the um the the fender the protective piece of plastic at the front crisscrossed between Britain and and the continent thirty-five times before it was completed. First it would go as metal then they would do something and then it would go back then they would put some lights on then it would go back. So this is what I mean by supply chains. Lots of transporting. Yeah. Um and a supply network that was working like a Swiss watch. Beautifully. Everything measured to the last moment just in moment you know no no storage no warehouses to save on money. So it would be a system that worked like clockwork you know you would need a shock absorber and suddenly the shock absorber would arrive in a truck. You wouldn't have to store it anywhere. Okay. But the moment COVID-19 hit and the governments pressed the stop button all those factories stopped working. Now the ships that were the container ships that were carrying stuff from China to Los Angeles you know industrial goods, iPhones, right? whatever. They were in mid-journey. They were in the middle of the Pacific they couldn't stop so they went to Los Angeles. They all accumulated in Los Angeles. They got there the ports were were not working, nothing was working, they got stuck there. Okay? Similarly the um the tankers carrying LNG liquid gas from Qatar to China continued and then ended up in China unloaded the LNG. Right? Stayed there. Then when they pressed the green button again for the
unknown
whole system to work again it couldn't work. Why? Because all the ships that should carry stuff that was being produced in China were all in Los Angeles and all the ships that were carrying energy from Qatar to China were in China. Now you may say that okay well how long does it take for those ships to go back? Takes a month. Yeah it takes a month but doesn't solve the problem because by the time they are back the stockpiles are huge. Meanwhile COVID-19 meant that consumer demand for goods went up because we were all stuck inside the house and we were ordering stupid things to pass the time with. Right? So demand went up stockpiles went up and the supply chains broke down. That pushed energy prices up, it pushed transport. Now there is another element here which um you won't hear many people tell you this but that's why important that I should let you into the secret. Capitalism works on the basis of futures markets. The great money the great profits are not made so much in buying and selling stuff but in buying and selling the right to buy and sell stuff. Right? So people go to the Chicago exchange and they buy um next year's oranges. Oranges that doesn't exist which will exist next year. They can do the same thing with transport. They can buy transport capacity now for the next ten years. So speculators who saw who predicted that the transport costs for a container would go up because of this of what I just described they went in and bought the transport capacity of you know eighty percent of shipping all at once and their game now is to starve the market of transport capacity in order to to push the price up further. So these futures capitalist markets are turbocharging the problem that COVID-19 created with with supply chains. Uh and same similarly with energy. With energy you have other of aspects too. You have Vladimir Putin who is playing games with the European Union in order to force the European Union to force you know to to convince the European Union to give the green light in a democratic debate so okay yeah to give the green light to the to the Nord Stream pipeline that bypasses Ukraine and going through down the Baltic straight to Germany. Uh he is reducing the supply of energy at a time when for some reason wind I've been told has died down in the last eight months compared to the average strength of the wind in the North Sea and across Europe which meant that wind power generation went down at a time when the supply of gas because of so there are the okay these things should iron themselves out very quickly but when you throw in the speculation uh it's much easier to see how these problems are magnified and stretched into the future. Now with working classes, the precariat, the weaker members of society having suffered twelve thirteen years of this depletion while the richer are getting richer through the process of money printing by the central banks that I described, when these people are facing depletion they have incredibly bad jobs. They are now facing increases in their rents, they are facing increases in their electricity bill and so on. Um you realize that that that their circumstances are becoming
whole system to work again it couldn't work. Why? Because all the ships that should carry stuff that was being produced in China were all in Los Angeles and all the ships that were carrying energy from Qatar to China were in China. Now you may say that okay well how long does it take for those ships to go back? Takes a month. Yeah it takes a month but doesn't solve the problem because by the time they are back the stockpiles are huge. Meanwhile COVID-19 meant that consumer demand for goods went up because we were all stuck inside the house and we were ordering stupid things to pass the time with. Right? So demand went up stockpiles went up and the supply chains broke down. That pushed energy prices up, it pushed transport. Now there is another element here which um you won't hear many people tell you this but that's why important that I should let you into the secret. Capitalism works on the basis of futures markets. The great money the great profits are not made so much in buying and selling stuff but in buying and selling the right to buy and sell stuff. Right? So people go to the Chicago exchange and they buy um next year's oranges. Oranges that doesn't exist which will exist next year. They can do the same thing with transport. They can buy transport capacity now for the next ten years. So speculators who saw who predicted that the transport costs for a container would go up because of this of what I just described they went in and bought the transport capacity of you know eighty percent of shipping all at once and their game now is to starve the market of transport capacity in order to to push the price up further. So these futures capitalist markets are turbocharging the problem that COVID-19 created with with supply chains. Uh and same similarly with energy. With energy you have other of aspects too. You have Vladimir Putin who is playing games with the European Union in order to force the European Union to force you know to to convince the European Union to give the green light in a democratic debate so okay yeah to give the green light to the to the Nord Stream pipeline that bypasses Ukraine and going through down the Baltic straight to Germany. Uh he is reducing the supply of energy at a time when for some reason wind I've been told has died down in the last eight months compared to the average strength of the wind in the North Sea and across Europe which meant that wind power generation went down at a time when the supply of gas because of so there are the okay these things should iron themselves out very quickly but when you throw in the speculation uh it's much easier to see how these problems are magnified and stretched into the future. Now with working classes, the precariat, the weaker members of society having suffered twelve thirteen years of this depletion while the richer are getting richer through the process of money printing by the central banks that I described, when these people are facing depletion they have incredibly bad jobs. They are now facing increases in their rents, they are facing increases in their electricity bill and so on. Um you realize that that that their circumstances are becoming
unknown
increasingly unbearable even though for the last twelve years they were almost used to unbearable circumstances this is now getting deeper and worse. Add to this the terrible authoritarianism of states and governments that through COVID-19 discovered that they can do anything they want with us. Because think about it I mean it's I'm I'm not against lockdowns if you have a pandemic but the power to say to people you're not going to step out of your home is an exorbitant power. And when you've had government after government after government serving the interests of the one percent of the one percent. Naturally authoritarian increasingly authoritarian with COVID-19 it is really very easy if you combine the discontent felt by rising prices, reducing falling quality of jobs, quality of jobs not so much quantity but bullshit jobs multiplying. With fear of the system, with mistrust in the government, you bring all these things together and this is a great gift for fascists. That's it.
increasingly unbearable even though for the last twelve years they were almost used to unbearable circumstances this is now getting deeper and worse. Add to this the terrible authoritarianism of states and governments that through COVID-19 discovered that they can do anything they want with us. Because think about it I mean it's I'm I'm not against lockdowns if you have a pandemic but the power to say to people you're not going to step out of your home is an exorbitant power. And when you've had government after government after government serving the interests of the one percent of the one percent. Naturally authoritarian increasingly authoritarian with COVID-19 it is really very easy if you combine the discontent felt by rising prices, reducing falling quality of jobs, quality of jobs not so much quantity but bullshit jobs multiplying. With fear of the system, with mistrust in the government, you bring all these things together and this is a great gift for fascists. That's it.
Slavoj Žižek
Okay let's now do the next step. From and I agree with the dark image you painted of where we are. Okay. There is now an why the answer that I will give you now and I don't believe in it but I want from you a theoretical confirmation why because a naive old Marxist leftist would have said perfect with this neo-feudal corporations everything is already there centralized we just boom boom nationalize it and we are in happy social why this doesn't work? Because it seems at some naive point the obvious thing to do.
Okay let's now do the next step. From and I agree with the dark image you painted of where we are. Okay. There is now an why the answer that I will give you now and I don't believe in it but I want from you a theoretical confirmation why because a naive old Marxist leftist would have said perfect with this neo-feudal corporations everything is already there centralized we just boom boom nationalize it and we are in happy social why this doesn't work? Because it seems at some naive point the obvious thing to do.
unknown
I said that to the good people of Google inside their den. They were very kind a few years ago they invited me to go to their campus in California to give a a speech inside of Google I entered Google and gave a speech on and they asked me to speak about digital money which of course they are very interested in. And what I said to them was well not exactly that but I said look you the problem with you guys is that you know your search technology is so stupendously wonderful that you have invented a human right. The right to do a Google search. Because if you now given that this is now available for everyone. If you if you deny you or you or you if somebody let's say the government the world extraterrestrials deny you the right to use Google they are denying you a human right. It's so important to be able to search stuff on Google and the search engine that its denial is an aberration you know an abdication of a human right. So the problem however is that if you have invented a human right if it is a human right you have no right to own it. So you should all be nationalized. And like they looked at me. Ah yeah. Yeah yeah. I said just kidding so I continued to the next to the next point. Otherwise you know they would have either they would have kicked me out or gotten a heart attack. So um the problem however with nationalizing is that these
I said that to the good people of Google inside their den. They were very kind a few years ago they invited me to go to their campus in California to give a a speech inside of Google I entered Google and gave a speech on and they asked me to speak about digital money which of course they are very interested in. And what I said to them was well not exactly that but I said look you the problem with you guys is that you know your search technology is so stupendously wonderful that you have invented a human right. The right to do a Google search. Because if you now given that this is now available for everyone. If you if you deny you or you or you if somebody let's say the government the world extraterrestrials deny you the right to use Google they are denying you a human right. It's so important to be able to search stuff on Google and the search engine that its denial is an aberration you know an abdication of a human right. So the problem however is that if you have invented a human right if it is a human right you have no right to own it. So you should all be nationalized. And like they looked at me. Ah yeah. Yeah yeah. I said just kidding so I continued to the next to the next point. Otherwise you know they would have either they would have kicked me out or gotten a heart attack. So um the problem however with nationalizing is that these
unknown
are not national corporations. Hm Google is not a national corporation. What nation is going to what country what what state is going to nationalize Google? Even the United States cannot do it. They are everywhere. They are in every nook and cranny of the digital space of planet Earth. Facebook. How do you nationalize Facebook? You can internationalize it but for that you need a world government and the moment we start saying that you know I think half of the people in here will leave. All right? Um for me the trick is to create a transnational movement that challenges the ownership of corporations. Since the sixteenth century we have a monstrosity that is growing within the bosom of our societies the idea of liquid ownership of shares. Think about it. We take it for granted. Okay I could have a corner shop that makes bicycles I can sell it to Slavoj that makes some kind of sense. But the idea that you have a large corporation and you take the ownership of that corporation and you slice it up in tiny little pieces called shares which then trade anonymously like confetti like you know baseball cards in in the United States. And decision making about what that company does is based on the general assembly of the shareholders who are anonymous. And the more you of those pieces of paper you've bought the more votes you have in the general assembly. Now if we didn't have capitalism imagine this is the sixteenth century and I were to propose this system to you. You would have thought I'm mad. And you are very rightly so. We know what happened with the first joint-stock company it was the British East India Company. London. It was at the time when Hamlet was finishing no not Hamlet Shakespeare was finishing Hamlet not the other way around. Okay? Within ten years that company became bigger than the British state. They had two hundred thousand soldiers with which they expropriated India, Indonesia. They destroyed millions of people's lives. And this is the very basis of capitalism the idea of as many votes as I as I can buy depending on on wealth. Because you see there's I mean Jeff Bezos became what by fifty billion dollars richer during the pandemic. He was he didn't do anything during the pandemic. He is a smart man there's no doubt that Jeff Bezos is smarter than I am. He's far better entrepreneur than I am that goes without saying okay? Um but the fifty billion that he made during the pandemic he didn't work for. He was making it in his sleep. You know the wealth he had in the stock exchange was breeding more wealth. Um and by the way in in ancient Greek and in Greek uh the word for interest is the same as the word for giving birth. Um actually labor, female labor. Um so I have a very simple alternative to taking over and nationalizing because who's going to run Facebook? I mean if you and my imagine if I made you
are not national corporations. Hm Google is not a national corporation. What nation is going to what country what what state is going to nationalize Google? Even the United States cannot do it. They are everywhere. They are in every nook and cranny of the digital space of planet Earth. Facebook. How do you nationalize Facebook? You can internationalize it but for that you need a world government and the moment we start saying that you know I think half of the people in here will leave. All right? Um for me the trick is to create a transnational movement that challenges the ownership of corporations. Since the sixteenth century we have a monstrosity that is growing within the bosom of our societies the idea of liquid ownership of shares. Think about it. We take it for granted. Okay I could have a corner shop that makes bicycles I can sell it to Slavoj that makes some kind of sense. But the idea that you have a large corporation and you take the ownership of that corporation and you slice it up in tiny little pieces called shares which then trade anonymously like confetti like you know baseball cards in in the United States. And decision making about what that company does is based on the general assembly of the shareholders who are anonymous. And the more you of those pieces of paper you've bought the more votes you have in the general assembly. Now if we didn't have capitalism imagine this is the sixteenth century and I were to propose this system to you. You would have thought I'm mad. And you are very rightly so. We know what happened with the first joint-stock company it was the British East India Company. London. It was at the time when Hamlet was finishing no not Hamlet Shakespeare was finishing Hamlet not the other way around. Okay? Within ten years that company became bigger than the British state. They had two hundred thousand soldiers with which they expropriated India, Indonesia. They destroyed millions of people's lives. And this is the very basis of capitalism the idea of as many votes as I as I can buy depending on on wealth. Because you see there's I mean Jeff Bezos became what by fifty billion dollars richer during the pandemic. He was he didn't do anything during the pandemic. He is a smart man there's no doubt that Jeff Bezos is smarter than I am. He's far better entrepreneur than I am that goes without saying okay? Um but the fifty billion that he made during the pandemic he didn't work for. He was making it in his sleep. You know the wealth he had in the stock exchange was breeding more wealth. Um and by the way in in ancient Greek and in Greek uh the word for interest is the same as the word for giving birth. Um actually labor, female labor. Um so I have a very simple alternative to taking over and nationalizing because who's going to run Facebook? I mean if you and my imagine if I made you
unknown
managing director of Facebook. I mean we would shut it down it would stop
managing director of Facebook. I mean we would shut it down it would stop
unknown
functioning. Or me for that matter this is not taking shots cheap shots at
functioning. Or me for that matter this is not taking shots cheap shots at
unknown
Slavoj. Um imagine if we had a very simple change in corporate law where we say that shares become like library cards in a university. You enroll in university you get a library card. It gives you privileges you can take books out you can connect to the internet you can go into venues you can vote in elections students union elections right? You can't sell that card. You cannot hire it, you cannot lease it, you cannot buy it. There's no market for it. It is your right to have it like a vote in the political arena. Right? You can have it you can use it but you can't sell it or buy it at least not formally. Um imagine how that would transform the world suddenly Facebook would belong only to people who work there. And imagine if at the same time you introduced another change in ownership rights so that people own their own data and Facebook cannot touch it without paying you. The world is transformed all of a sudden. Those large companies are going to shrink. Why would they shrink? Because you know if you have a company with eight hundred thousand workers and they all have one share each um they can't run it. It's too many. It's you know the optimal size is what at most ten thousand people. So they would themselves decide you don't even need the state to come in a Stalinist way and take it over and break it down. This is why I put a lot of emphasis on as Marx did you know wishy-washy stuff about social justice and inequality that for me means nothing. It is simply bourgeois claptrap for the purposes of massaging our conscience. You want to talk serious you seriously about liberating people from the shackles in which they live change ownership rights, change corporate law and make shares non-tradeable, one person, one share, one vote.
Slavoj. Um imagine if we had a very simple change in corporate law where we say that shares become like library cards in a university. You enroll in university you get a library card. It gives you privileges you can take books out you can connect to the internet you can go into venues you can vote in elections students union elections right? You can't sell that card. You cannot hire it, you cannot lease it, you cannot buy it. There's no market for it. It is your right to have it like a vote in the political arena. Right? You can have it you can use it but you can't sell it or buy it at least not formally. Um imagine how that would transform the world suddenly Facebook would belong only to people who work there. And imagine if at the same time you introduced another change in ownership rights so that people own their own data and Facebook cannot touch it without paying you. The world is transformed all of a sudden. Those large companies are going to shrink. Why would they shrink? Because you know if you have a company with eight hundred thousand workers and they all have one share each um they can't run it. It's too many. It's you know the optimal size is what at most ten thousand people. So they would themselves decide you don't even need the state to come in a Stalinist way and take it over and break it down. This is why I put a lot of emphasis on as Marx did you know wishy-washy stuff about social justice and inequality that for me means nothing. It is simply bourgeois claptrap for the purposes of massaging our conscience. You want to talk serious you seriously about liberating people from the shackles in which they live change ownership rights, change corporate law and make shares non-tradeable, one person, one share, one vote.
Slavoj Žižek
Next step. Okay. We shouldn't I don't know what time it is but we still have at least two important points. One is we are both on the one hand critical of China, People's Republic, the big one. But at the same time we don't simply buy the Western narrative, you know, evil totalitarian China the threat to and so on. This afternoon we talked about a figure I suppose you well go to Google and search for him Wang Huning who is now probably the most influential intellectual in the world because in China the real power is in the seven members of sitting committee of the politburo or whatever they are. He is one of them. It's an extremely
Next step. Okay. We shouldn't I don't know what time it is but we still have at least two important points. One is we are both on the one hand critical of China, People's Republic, the big one. But at the same time we don't simply buy the Western narrative, you know, evil totalitarian China the threat to and so on. This afternoon we talked about a figure I suppose you well go to Google and search for him Wang Huning who is now probably the most influential intellectual in the world because in China the real power is in the seven members of sitting committee of the politburo or whatever they are. He is one of them. It's an extremely
unknown
Is he is he the the modern version of Suslov? Do you remember Suslov? My
Is he is he the the modern version of Suslov? Do you remember Suslov? My
Slavoj Žižek
don't now you we are entering erotic eroticism. Because Suslov is my don't now you will have to suffer one minute. Yes. You know why? You know who was Mikhail Suslov, the embodiment of the irrationality of Soviet system. He was extremely influential but you know what was his function? He survived them all Stalin, Khrushchev, Brezhnev, everybody. He had this were pre-digital times. He had pre-digital times a couple of shelves with thousands of cards, quotes from Lenin for all occasions. If for example Russia wanted a war with Finland he found a quote from Lenin and Russia and all of them from Stalin onwards came to him. This is the party line, find quotes from Lenin to to support it to support it. And it's incredible how what he did didn't have any influence. It's a bit like the Bible.
don't now you we are entering erotic eroticism. Because Suslov is my don't now you will have to suffer one minute. Yes. You know why? You know who was Mikhail Suslov, the embodiment of the irrationality of Soviet system. He was extremely influential but you know what was his function? He survived them all Stalin, Khrushchev, Brezhnev, everybody. He had this were pre-digital times. He had pre-digital times a couple of shelves with thousands of cards, quotes from Lenin for all occasions. If for example Russia wanted a war with Finland he found a quote from Lenin and Russia and all of them from Stalin onwards came to him. This is the party line, find quotes from Lenin to to support it to support it. And it's incredible how what he did didn't have any influence. It's a bit like the Bible.
unknown
Yeah you can support anything there's some line in the Bible that supports whatever you do.
Yeah you can support anything there's some line in the Bible that supports whatever you do.
Slavoj Žižek
Yeah. Yeah yeah so Suslov yes and I wonder if we ever get close to power I want to be Suslov and not not you but that's another story. Okay sorry
Yeah. Yeah yeah so Suslov yes and I wonder if we ever get close to power I want to be Suslov and not not you but that's another story. Okay sorry
unknown
seriously. If we go close anywhere near power I'll be in the gulag and he'll be in the politburo.
seriously. If we go close anywhere near power I'll be in the gulag and he'll be in the politburo.
Slavoj Žižek
Absolutely and I will repeat my joke I told this to Peter Sloterdijk [unintelligible] and even if you are in gulag I will still show my friendship to you you know how? In gulag every Sunday you get a little bit better soup, two two rotten heads of a fish or something like that. I will make a call from Moscow you will get double portion of this soup every Sunday. But let's go on on serious stuff. No this guy in China Wang Huning he it's incredibly intelligent he wrote thirty years ago in the late eighties he visited for a couple of months United States studied everyday life and so on and wrote a book "America Against America" where he what he wrote there is today with Trump and so on more true than ever. He saw the creativity but at the same time the decadent self-destroying elements of the American system and his big fear was if China is exploding in this new capitalism no how to prevent Americanization in this destructive aspect. That's the reason it's not simple totalitarianism. What he is the ideologist so media claim behind what President Xi is doing now which is what remember a double at two levels this so-called but we wrongly call them like this reforms. I was shocked I cannot but repeat the joke that I already told it to you I said I read that the Chinese authorities party prohibited something called Now I was a little bit shocked from my decadent late sixties sexual revolution years I didn't participate in it but I knew what's going on was associated with double oral sex you know. So I said what's happening like like the politburo the Communist party prohibiting certain sexual practice no? No then I learned it's a very sad story. means the practice imposed by big corporation in China six days a week you work twelve hours, to But I wasn't totally wrong in my reading because this guy Wang Huning openly describes himself as a neo-conservative. He even between the lines gets delivers an insight with which I fully agree that and Alain Badiou hates me for saying this that the real cause of this exploding capitalism in China was the big Cultural Revolution which destroyed tradition and create you know empty subjects. The big thing during Cultural Revolution was destroy monuments get rid of Confucian past and so on. So now Wang Huning problem is how to keep the capitalist dynamic but with more justice, more moral authority, and so on and so on. Okay I just describe the situation which you should read about others my question to you can it will it work? Does it have a chance?
Absolutely and I will repeat my joke I told this to Peter Sloterdijk [unintelligible] and even if you are in gulag I will still show my friendship to you you know how? In gulag every Sunday you get a little bit better soup, two two rotten heads of a fish or something like that. I will make a call from Moscow you will get double portion of this soup every Sunday. But let's go on on serious stuff. No this guy in China Wang Huning he it's incredibly intelligent he wrote thirty years ago in the late eighties he visited for a couple of months United States studied everyday life and so on and wrote a book "America Against America" where he what he wrote there is today with Trump and so on more true than ever. He saw the creativity but at the same time the decadent self-destroying elements of the American system and his big fear was if China is exploding in this new capitalism no how to prevent Americanization in this destructive aspect. That's the reason it's not simple totalitarianism. What he is the ideologist so media claim behind what President Xi is doing now which is what remember a double at two levels this so-called but we wrongly call them like this reforms. I was shocked I cannot but repeat the joke that I already told it to you I said I read that the Chinese authorities party prohibited something called Now I was a little bit shocked from my decadent late sixties sexual revolution years I didn't participate in it but I knew what's going on was associated with double oral sex you know. So I said what's happening like like the politburo the Communist party prohibiting certain sexual practice no? No then I learned it's a very sad story. means the practice imposed by big corporation in China six days a week you work twelve hours, to But I wasn't totally wrong in my reading because this guy Wang Huning openly describes himself as a neo-conservative. He even between the lines gets delivers an insight with which I fully agree that and Alain Badiou hates me for saying this that the real cause of this exploding capitalism in China was the big Cultural Revolution which destroyed tradition and create you know empty subjects. The big thing during Cultural Revolution was destroy monuments get rid of Confucian past and so on. So now Wang Huning problem is how to keep the capitalist dynamic but with more justice, more moral authority, and so on and so on. Okay I just describe the situation which you should read about others my question to you can it will it work? Does it have a chance?
unknown
Does what have a chance? China.
Does what have a chance? China.
Slavoj Žižek
No this strategy specific. Let's call it neo-conservative strategy of combining keeping capitalist dynamic but Wang Huning emphasizes also cultural values and so on you know.
No this strategy specific. Let's call it neo-conservative strategy of combining keeping capitalist dynamic but Wang Huning emphasizes also cultural values and so on you know.
unknown
I don't think it does. I don't think it does have a chance. I
I don't think it does. I don't think it does have a chance. I
Slavoj Žižek
also but why not? I got my feminine intuition you are the man here you.
also but why not? I got my feminine intuition you are the man here you.
unknown
I have no idea but I will start speaking giving an answer hoping that I will form it by the time I reach the end of the sentence. Is it okay?
I have no idea but I will start speaking giving an answer hoping that I will form it by the time I reach the end of the sentence. Is it okay?
Slavoj Žižek
Sorry you are talking like a Hegelian. Okay yeah.
Sorry you are talking like a Hegelian. Okay yeah.
unknown
Okay well to begin with let me make a political statement about China. I am a liberal Marxist. In China I would probably be under house arrest or even worse probably in some cell. When the Hong Kong polytechnic students rose up and they were brutally beaten by police I supported them. When it comes to the Uighurs, Tibet and so on, I'm more than happy to come out and condemn with all my strength the authoritarianism of the Chinese Communist Party. But at the same time folks Trump Trump started a new Cold War against China it was his choice his geostrategic and ideological choice. He even went against Apple for producing iPhones in Shenzhen. It was a Trumpian choice. I'm not saying it is wrong because it was Trump but I remind you that this was Trump's choice. Biden comes along and he adopts it completely and actually turbocharges it as well. So there is an attempt now to create a new Cold War which could even become hot with the stupidity about Taiwan and so on because they are upping the ante there. And you can see that the European Union is being forced is being dragged into this with Huawei to begin with they banned any European country from having dealings with Huawei even though Huawei had the best 5G system and the cheapest for our poorer countries we've not been allowed to use it by the Americans through Brussels. And there is an attempt to present China as the new Nazi regime. This is all dangerous stuff. China is a very large country with ambition, a long memory, but they are not imperialist. They have never been imperialist. China has never colonized any place in the world. Even the skirmish with Vietnam was a skirmish about local issues. It was not an attempt to take over Vietnam if they wanted to take over Vietnam they would have taken over Vietnam. Um people say to me what about Africa? Wherever you go in Africa you find Chinese investment. Well yes the Chinese have a strategy
Okay well to begin with let me make a political statement about China. I am a liberal Marxist. In China I would probably be under house arrest or even worse probably in some cell. When the Hong Kong polytechnic students rose up and they were brutally beaten by police I supported them. When it comes to the Uighurs, Tibet and so on, I'm more than happy to come out and condemn with all my strength the authoritarianism of the Chinese Communist Party. But at the same time folks Trump Trump started a new Cold War against China it was his choice his geostrategic and ideological choice. He even went against Apple for producing iPhones in Shenzhen. It was a Trumpian choice. I'm not saying it is wrong because it was Trump but I remind you that this was Trump's choice. Biden comes along and he adopts it completely and actually turbocharges it as well. So there is an attempt now to create a new Cold War which could even become hot with the stupidity about Taiwan and so on because they are upping the ante there. And you can see that the European Union is being forced is being dragged into this with Huawei to begin with they banned any European country from having dealings with Huawei even though Huawei had the best 5G system and the cheapest for our poorer countries we've not been allowed to use it by the Americans through Brussels. And there is an attempt to present China as the new Nazi regime. This is all dangerous stuff. China is a very large country with ambition, a long memory, but they are not imperialist. They have never been imperialist. China has never colonized any place in the world. Even the skirmish with Vietnam was a skirmish about local issues. It was not an attempt to take over Vietnam if they wanted to take over Vietnam they would have taken over Vietnam. Um people say to me what about Africa? Wherever you go in Africa you find Chinese investment. Well yes the Chinese have a strategy
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of securing supplies of raw materials that they don't have. Um long time ago it was I was in Ethiopia and I was told by government officials that the airport, brand new airport back then, was built by the Chinese government for free. For free. The Americans have never built anything for free anywhere even when you hear the words US aid it's not aid, it's loans to be paid with interest. Not same. The reason is that you know they went to Angola, they went to Ethiopia, they went to wherever they thought they could find rare earths or oil or gas and they put the governments and the people into their debt by building infrastructure hoping that you know when the deal would be made for all these um natural resources they would get preferential treatment. Okay this is using one's exorbitant power in one's favor. Yeah but compare and contrast with what the Europeans did in Africa. We destroyed a whole continent. We enslaved their people. We killed Lumumba. Not we but imperialism did. We created South Africa. We Europeans created South Africa. It was not the Africans who created apartheid. You know I spent my youth in London being beaten up with others in Hyde Park demonstrating against apartheid when Mandela was in prison and Margaret Thatcher was calling him a terrorist. Right? I never imagined that apartheid would die in South Africa and be reconvened in Palestine. Calling out apartheid by the way I have to give my thanks and great appreciation to our comrades in Israel, the B'Tselem organization, the human rights Jewish organization that were the first who dared call Israel an apartheid state. So having made this point I'm not surprised by what you say. The worst enemies of the people of Greece were Greeks. Every time we have been defeated we've been defeated not by iron-clad foreign armies but by our own folks. From time immemorial even when the Persians invaded half of the Greek city-states were with the Persians. I didn't know that. It's not the heroic Sparta bringing all the Greeks together. No. Thebes. Thebes next to Athens a stone's throw from Athens were an ally of the Persians. No wonder they produced Oedipus also. During during During the occupation it was the collaborators that did the most damage. Not the not the Germans. People ask me about why did you lose against the Troika? Was it because Schäuble was so harsh? No of course not I knew exactly how harsh the IMF and Schäuble would be. It was our own people. It was division within our own ranks and the fact that the Greek oligarchy was absolutely determined that the Greek people get defeated and that we become a debt colony in which they so you know this is an exceptionalist argument about the Zionist
of securing supplies of raw materials that they don't have. Um long time ago it was I was in Ethiopia and I was told by government officials that the airport, brand new airport back then, was built by the Chinese government for free. For free. The Americans have never built anything for free anywhere even when you hear the words US aid it's not aid, it's loans to be paid with interest. Not same. The reason is that you know they went to Angola, they went to Ethiopia, they went to wherever they thought they could find rare earths or oil or gas and they put the governments and the people into their debt by building infrastructure hoping that you know when the deal would be made for all these um natural resources they would get preferential treatment. Okay this is using one's exorbitant power in one's favor. Yeah but compare and contrast with what the Europeans did in Africa. We destroyed a whole continent. We enslaved their people. We killed Lumumba. Not we but imperialism did. We created South Africa. We Europeans created South Africa. It was not the Africans who created apartheid. You know I spent my youth in London being beaten up with others in Hyde Park demonstrating against apartheid when Mandela was in prison and Margaret Thatcher was calling him a terrorist. Right? I never imagined that apartheid would die in South Africa and be reconvened in Palestine. Calling out apartheid by the way I have to give my thanks and great appreciation to our comrades in Israel, the B'Tselem organization, the human rights Jewish organization that were the first who dared call Israel an apartheid state. So having made this point I'm not surprised by what you say. The worst enemies of the people of Greece were Greeks. Every time we have been defeated we've been defeated not by iron-clad foreign armies but by our own folks. From time immemorial even when the Persians invaded half of the Greek city-states were with the Persians. I didn't know that. It's not the heroic Sparta bringing all the Greeks together. No. Thebes. Thebes next to Athens a stone's throw from Athens were an ally of the Persians. No wonder they produced Oedipus also. During during During the occupation it was the collaborators that did the most damage. Not the not the Germans. People ask me about why did you lose against the Troika? Was it because Schäuble was so harsh? No of course not I knew exactly how harsh the IMF and Schäuble would be. It was our own people. It was division within our own ranks and the fact that the Greek oligarchy was absolutely determined that the Greek people get defeated and that we become a debt colony in which they so you know this is an exceptionalist argument about the Zionist
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anti-Semites. It's everywhere. Except that the plight of the Palestinian people is so much greater than the plight of any other people because they have been completely forgotten. The collapse of the Soviet Union was a mighty blow because they were on a losing side of the Cold War. You had the migration of Russian Jews strengthening the demographics and so on. And you have the abomination of Saddam Hussein trying to present himself as the defender of the Palestinians. Having a butcher defend your rights is the worst thing that can happen to you, right? And you have a situation where until the latest uprising most of my Palestinian friends and Jewish friends who support the Palestinian cause felt that the cause was dying day by day. But this very poignant uprising has created new hope. New hope in purely Hegelian style of the liberation of the Jews of Israel. Because the worst victims after the Palestinians are progressive Jews in Israel who live under a Netanyahu kind of regime. You know they are prisoners of an Israel that is completely against the interests of progressive Jews. Agree. Just before you should say no no I'm not saying anything just give you you know what we totally neglected? You are not politically a nobody. You have DiEM and Progressive I am not politically a nobody. The negation of the negation. Yeah yeah. But my God it fascinated me so much how that Progressive International that you mentioned it's not just like a group of Trotskyists meeting in a basement. It's something serious going on. Please tell them in one minute. It started you know that I've been involved in DiEM25 which is
anti-Semites. It's everywhere. Except that the plight of the Palestinian people is so much greater than the plight of any other people because they have been completely forgotten. The collapse of the Soviet Union was a mighty blow because they were on a losing side of the Cold War. You had the migration of Russian Jews strengthening the demographics and so on. And you have the abomination of Saddam Hussein trying to present himself as the defender of the Palestinians. Having a butcher defend your rights is the worst thing that can happen to you, right? And you have a situation where until the latest uprising most of my Palestinian friends and Jewish friends who support the Palestinian cause felt that the cause was dying day by day. But this very poignant uprising has created new hope. New hope in purely Hegelian style of the liberation of the Jews of Israel. Because the worst victims after the Palestinians are progressive Jews in Israel who live under a Netanyahu kind of regime. You know they are prisoners of an Israel that is completely against the interests of progressive Jews. Agree. Just before you should say no no I'm not saying anything just give you you know what we totally neglected? You are not politically a nobody. You have DiEM and Progressive I am not politically a nobody. The negation of the negation. Yeah yeah. But my God it fascinated me so much how that Progressive International that you mentioned it's not just like a group of Trotskyists meeting in a basement. It's something serious going on. Please tell them in one minute. It started you know that I've been involved in DiEM25 which is
Slavoj Žižek
a pan-European
a pan-European
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movement. We run in elections in Greece and elected nine members of parliament. But in the middle of doing all this um I was invited by The Guardian to write a comment on an article by Bernie Sanders in Bernie Sanders no actually the other way around. I was invited to write an article about what I think the problem of the world is you know how The Guardian does that. So I said to them the problem is the twin authoritarianisms. The authoritarianism of the liberal establishment and the authoritarianism of the fascist. And what we need is a Progressive International because the the bankers and the fascists are internationalizing only the progressives are not internationalizing so we need a Progressive International. And they gave this to Bernie Sanders and they asked him to comment. He provided a very nice comment saying that was right and so on. And then they asked they
movement. We run in elections in Greece and elected nine members of parliament. But in the middle of doing all this um I was invited by The Guardian to write a comment on an article by Bernie Sanders in Bernie Sanders no actually the other way around. I was invited to write an article about what I think the problem of the world is you know how The Guardian does that. So I said to them the problem is the twin authoritarianisms. The authoritarianism of the liberal establishment and the authoritarianism of the fascist. And what we need is a Progressive International because the the bankers and the fascists are internationalizing only the progressives are not internationalizing so we need a Progressive International. And they gave this to Bernie Sanders and they asked him to comment. He provided a very nice comment saying that was right and so on. And then they asked they
Slavoj Žižek
liked that so they had the idea that they would ask him to write an article with me commenting. So the two were published like that the two articles and the two comments. And then we got together Bernie Sanders. Bernie Sanders was actually wonderful
liked that so they had the idea that they would ask him to write an article with me commenting. So the two were published like that the two articles and the two comments. And then we got together Bernie Sanders. Bernie Sanders was actually wonderful
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in he lent me
in he lent me
Slavoj Žižek
enormous support during these negotiations with the Troika. He even threatened Christine Lagarde and the IMF that as a senator he would start the process of starving the IMF of funding if they continued doing what they were doing in Greece. Which is remarkable. Not that he had the power to do it but it was nice that he it was a good thought. Well he's one senator out of a hundred. But it was you know it was extremely helpful. So we got in touch and we said okay well enough talking if we both agree that we should have a Progressive International let's have it. So a few months later we met in Vermont. It was a wonderful gathering. You know all the good comrades all the the usual suspects you know Cornel West, Susan Sarandon, Bernie Sanders, um Katrin Jakobsdottir the Prime Minister of Iceland and so on. So we made an open call. Then
enormous support during these negotiations with the Troika. He even threatened Christine Lagarde and the IMF that as a senator he would start the process of starving the IMF of funding if they continued doing what they were doing in Greece. Which is remarkable. Not that he had the power to do it but it was nice that he it was a good thought. Well he's one senator out of a hundred. But it was you know it was extremely helpful. So we got in touch and we said okay well enough talking if we both agree that we should have a Progressive International let's have it. So a few months later we met in Vermont. It was a wonderful gathering. You know all the good comrades all the the usual suspects you know Cornel West, Susan Sarandon, Bernie Sanders, um Katrin Jakobsdottir the Prime Minister of Iceland and so on. So we made an open call. Then
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something horrible happened and the whole thing was suspended. It's called the American election. Because the American election means that Bernie could not participate in this but I don't know
something horrible happened and the whole thing was suspended. It's called the American election. Because the American election means that Bernie could not participate in this but I don't know
Slavoj Žižek
whether you know that if you're a candidate in the United States you cannot participate in any international organization. Did you know that? So much for you know worldliness of the American system political system. So we put this um on ice for a while and then we recovered it and and a year and a half ago we launched properly the Progressive International. And we've done a lot of work which most people don't know about but the whole point is to organize a common agenda of progressives and also a common set of actions. Not just talk because the World Social Forum was great in the sense that we got together once a year we chatted and then we forgot about it. We were so impressed with ourselves that we forgot about it. Um there's a question of doing stuff as well. So the first action we carried out in December on that horrible day called Black Friday which is you know the great sale of the American consumerist machine which has been expanded expanded and brought to Europe as well. So on that day we decided to target Amazon and we had a a campaign called Make Amazon Pay. And by that time we had gathered um trade unions and other organizations climate change um activists and so on. All sorts of different movements and they be they joined the Progressive International to the
whether you know that if you're a candidate in the United States you cannot participate in any international organization. Did you know that? So much for you know worldliness of the American system political system. So we put this um on ice for a while and then we recovered it and and a year and a half ago we launched properly the Progressive International. And we've done a lot of work which most people don't know about but the whole point is to organize a common agenda of progressives and also a common set of actions. Not just talk because the World Social Forum was great in the sense that we got together once a year we chatted and then we forgot about it. We were so impressed with ourselves that we forgot about it. Um there's a question of doing stuff as well. So the first action we carried out in December on that horrible day called Black Friday which is you know the great sale of the American consumerist machine which has been expanded expanded and brought to Europe as well. So on that day we decided to target Amazon and we had a a campaign called Make Amazon Pay. And by that time we had gathered um trade unions and other organizations climate change um activists and so on. All sorts of different movements and they be they joined the Progressive International to the
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extent that we ended up with two hundred million affiliated members. So the first thing we wanted
extent that we ended up with two hundred million affiliated members. So the first thing we wanted
Slavoj Žižek
was to test the water and to test our capacity to act globally as a Progressive International. On that day we had a rolling strike in Amazon
was to test the water and to test our capacity to act globally as a Progressive International. On that day we had a rolling strike in Amazon
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warehouses. It started
warehouses. It started
Slavoj Žižek
in Bangladesh it moved to India, jumped to Germany, from Germany to New Jersey and from New Jersey to Seattle with artistic events at the same time projections on buildings on Jeff on Jeff Bezos's house we projected Make Amazon Pay. There is a great picture of that. The headquarters in Seattle Make Amazon Pay. Um so you know and now we're continuing we have a meeting happening in March in Chile uh where everybody gets together we have you know people like Rafael Correa um member of that and I think you were a member of that you don't know it but you are. Um you know Lula from Brazil uh but also the most important thing is we have young activists from Africa and from Bangladesh and from India and they you should hear them speak when they take the floor you know eighteen nineteen year old kids from Kenya and from Ghana. It's you know it
in Bangladesh it moved to India, jumped to Germany, from Germany to New Jersey and from New Jersey to Seattle with artistic events at the same time projections on buildings on Jeff on Jeff Bezos's house we projected Make Amazon Pay. There is a great picture of that. The headquarters in Seattle Make Amazon Pay. Um so you know and now we're continuing we have a meeting happening in March in Chile uh where everybody gets together we have you know people like Rafael Correa um member of that and I think you were a member of that you don't know it but you are. Um you know Lula from Brazil uh but also the most important thing is we have young activists from Africa and from Bangladesh and from India and they you should hear them speak when they take the floor you know eighteen nineteen year old kids from Kenya and from Ghana. It's you know it
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makes getting
makes getting
Slavoj Žižek
up in the morning and doing stuff worthwhile. I cannot agree more. Thank you very much. Now since I am a little bit myopic would you how we should organize. No now before you give the mike before you give the mike before you don't hand it over yet it will have to be a woman that speaks first. Enough of men. And then a man. Hello. Yes it's an honor to hear you live not just on YouTube. I have a question concerning Europe's enlargement processes and how and where does this fit Europe's economic agenda in context of the capitalism and as you said countries like China now are more keen on investing in countries like Serbia and Macedonia so what is your standpoint and opinion? It's a difficult question because we know why the European Union expanded so quickly. It was a kind of I
up in the morning and doing stuff worthwhile. I cannot agree more. Thank you very much. Now since I am a little bit myopic would you how we should organize. No now before you give the mike before you give the mike before you don't hand it over yet it will have to be a woman that speaks first. Enough of men. And then a man. Hello. Yes it's an honor to hear you live not just on YouTube. I have a question concerning Europe's enlargement processes and how and where does this fit Europe's economic agenda in context of the capitalism and as you said countries like China now are more keen on investing in countries like Serbia and Macedonia so what is your standpoint and opinion? It's a difficult question because we know why the European Union expanded so quickly. It was a kind of I
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know this is a terrible term it was a kind of Lebensraum vital space for German and German related industry. That's why you know Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland came in so quickly. They came in because of the expansion of the German industrial machine. Now at the same time what do you say to people in Poland, in Hungary, in North Macedonia, in Serbia and so on who say but you know we feel that we're going to be more protected in terms of our liberties. My argu- my response to that is if that's how you feel by all means come in and we will support you. But make no mistake the dearth of investment across Europe is not going to be suddenly be waved away just because Serbia comes in. There will be no investment in Serbia in the same way that there is no investment in Croatia. How much investment is
know this is a terrible term it was a kind of Lebensraum vital space for German and German related industry. That's why you know Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland came in so quickly. They came in because of the expansion of the German industrial machine. Now at the same time what do you say to people in Poland, in Hungary, in North Macedonia, in Serbia and so on who say but you know we feel that we're going to be more protected in terms of our liberties. My argu- my response to that is if that's how you feel by all means come in and we will support you. But make no mistake the dearth of investment across Europe is not going to be suddenly be waved away just because Serbia comes in. There will be no investment in Serbia in the same way that there is no investment in Croatia. How much investment is
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there in in Slovenia? Yes okay this building they paid some some of it. Good. Great. I'm now sounding like a Monty Python and what have the Romans done for us? I know I know. But nevertheless nevertheless the investment is a huge problem. In Germany they're not investing. In Germany is starved of investment which is crazy because that country you know Germany has never had so much money as they they do now. Um so as a as a as a Greek politician I have to answer that if it comes to the Greek Parliament that one of the former Yugoslav states is coming in I'll vote yes. But I want you folks to think very seriously about the balance of power between your oligarchies and your working classes when you enter. You have a very authoritarian right-wing problematic misanthropic government in Serbia for instance. Uh you're suffering under them. It is natural to think you'll get in the European Union and you'll be protected from your own government. Maybe it will happen maybe it won't happen. Maybe the regimes are going to get get become
there in in Slovenia? Yes okay this building they paid some some of it. Good. Great. I'm now sounding like a Monty Python and what have the Romans done for us? I know I know. But nevertheless nevertheless the investment is a huge problem. In Germany they're not investing. In Germany is starved of investment which is crazy because that country you know Germany has never had so much money as they they do now. Um so as a as a as a Greek politician I have to answer that if it comes to the Greek Parliament that one of the former Yugoslav states is coming in I'll vote yes. But I want you folks to think very seriously about the balance of power between your oligarchies and your working classes when you enter. You have a very authoritarian right-wing problematic misanthropic government in Serbia for instance. Uh you're suffering under them. It is natural to think you'll get in the European Union and you'll be protected from your own government. Maybe it will happen maybe it won't happen. Maybe the regimes are going to get get become
Slavoj Žižek
even more solidified. Look at you
even more solidified. Look at you
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know the illiberal democracies of Poland and Hungary. Angela Merkel has bent over
know the illiberal democracies of Poland and Hungary. Angela Merkel has bent over
Slavoj Žižek
backwards
backwards
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to acc- to accommodate those fascist governments and they will continue to do this. So I defer to the peoples of those countries. If you want to come in you'll have my support but don't think that it will solve your problems by coming into the European Union. Courtesy of coming into the European Union on its own. A lot of work needs to be done. There are instruments in the European Union that you can use for liberty and for progress. But it's not automatic. Yes hello. Vlatka Kolarovic from Zagreb. I would like to ask you a question about us people users of these digital platforms you were talking about. Are we creating something in this world or are we just slaves or are we important like users of all this digital world around us? I use digital technologies all the time and I'm fanatical about them. I love them. Okay? But as a boring old Marxist I will have to say to you never fetishize the instrument and never turn against the instrument. Turn against the social relations of ownership and production of the instruments. So let's change the way in which these technologies are being produced and used. But for for goodness sake you know use them and use them against those who are providing them to you. Look the black. Um hi I have a question about Wolfgang Schäuble and the question
to acc- to accommodate those fascist governments and they will continue to do this. So I defer to the peoples of those countries. If you want to come in you'll have my support but don't think that it will solve your problems by coming into the European Union. Courtesy of coming into the European Union on its own. A lot of work needs to be done. There are instruments in the European Union that you can use for liberty and for progress. But it's not automatic. Yes hello. Vlatka Kolarovic from Zagreb. I would like to ask you a question about us people users of these digital platforms you were talking about. Are we creating something in this world or are we just slaves or are we important like users of all this digital world around us? I use digital technologies all the time and I'm fanatical about them. I love them. Okay? But as a boring old Marxist I will have to say to you never fetishize the instrument and never turn against the instrument. Turn against the social relations of ownership and production of the instruments. So let's change the way in which these technologies are being produced and used. But for for goodness sake you know use them and use them against those who are providing them to you. Look the black. Um hi I have a question about Wolfgang Schäuble and the question
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about the library card ownership of stocks. So Wolfgang Schäuble wouldn't you what would you have done if you were in his shoes? Would you simply do as he did which seems
about the library card ownership of stocks. So Wolfgang Schäuble wouldn't you what would you have done if you were in his shoes? Would you simply do as he did which seems
Slavoj Žižek
to me basically to be to be defending what he thought were German
to me basically to be to be defending what he thought were German
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geopolitical interests?
geopolitical interests?
Slavoj Žižek
You see let me answer this question and and you'll ask the the second one immediately afterwards because it'll be
You see let me answer this question and and you'll ask the the second one immediately afterwards because it'll be
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very very brief. I would never be in his shoes. They would never put me in his shoes because this is not a personal thing. Um there are certain economic and political interests that wanted somebody like Schäuble. I remember a discussion with between Noam Chomsky and a BBC journalist. And Chomsky was going on correctly about the inherent bias of the media and the media tell one story and they will never tell another story. And this journalist said to him very nice good Andrew Marr a good BBC journalist and he said to him Professor Chomsky are you telling me that you think that I am saying things I don't believe in? That what I'm saying to you has been imposed upon me by a system? And Chomsky turned around and said no no no no I am convinced that you believe in what you're saying. But if you didn't believe in what you were saying you would not be having that position. So similarly with Schäuble. So what's the second question? My second question was about the library card ownership of of stocks and I was simply um wondering if you had any thoughts on Yugoslavia's tradition of self-management and you thought if that was kind of useful in your thoughts. Absolutely the the Yugoslav self-management model was an incredible experience for for the world. Um I know people Americans who came here in the 1960s to study the Yugoslav self-management model because it was a success story. People right-wing economists not left-wing economists. Um it was ahead of its time because digital technologies are important for the management and governance of self-managed firms. The capacity to communicate through fora, through intranets, through apps, to vote is much enhanced when you have digital technology. You didn't have that in Yugoslavia. You had to do everything by with paper and actual physical meetings of workers which made them you know Oscar Wilde the last so long socialism would ever take place. Um There were aspects of the Yugoslav model that I didn't like like for instance too much hierarchy. You had you elected the hierarchy
very very brief. I would never be in his shoes. They would never put me in his shoes because this is not a personal thing. Um there are certain economic and political interests that wanted somebody like Schäuble. I remember a discussion with between Noam Chomsky and a BBC journalist. And Chomsky was going on correctly about the inherent bias of the media and the media tell one story and they will never tell another story. And this journalist said to him very nice good Andrew Marr a good BBC journalist and he said to him Professor Chomsky are you telling me that you think that I am saying things I don't believe in? That what I'm saying to you has been imposed upon me by a system? And Chomsky turned around and said no no no no I am convinced that you believe in what you're saying. But if you didn't believe in what you were saying you would not be having that position. So similarly with Schäuble. So what's the second question? My second question was about the library card ownership of of stocks and I was simply um wondering if you had any thoughts on Yugoslavia's tradition of self-management and you thought if that was kind of useful in your thoughts. Absolutely the the Yugoslav self-management model was an incredible experience for for the world. Um I know people Americans who came here in the 1960s to study the Yugoslav self-management model because it was a success story. People right-wing economists not left-wing economists. Um it was ahead of its time because digital technologies are important for the management and governance of self-managed firms. The capacity to communicate through fora, through intranets, through apps, to vote is much enhanced when you have digital technology. You didn't have that in Yugoslavia. You had to do everything by with paper and actual physical meetings of workers which made them you know Oscar Wilde the last so long socialism would ever take place. Um There were aspects of the Yugoslav model that I didn't like like for instance too much hierarchy. You had you elected the hierarchy
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but there was far more hierarchy than was necessary. It was an attempt to emulate capitalist enterprises with voting. Uh but the reason why the Yugoslav economic model self-management model collapsed was not because of its inherent dysfunctionalities. It was because the government of Yugoslavia between and made a huge error of borrowing large gigantic amounts of money from American and western banks at an interest rate of two and a half three percent and the the moment the oil crisis pushed interest rates to twenty percent Yugoslavia was over from an economic point of view. I have a question please. Where are you? I can't see you. Ah there you go. Hi. So quite a few years have passed since the Paris Climate Agreement and as we have seen the situation is not getting any better. It's actually getting quite worse. So how do extreme climate events fit into your progressive agenda if on one hand we have people who are judged by not using linen bags to shop and then we have on the other side Paul Allen who crushed a complete and full coral reef with his superyacht? What can we do and what is your agenda that can reuse all of those? Thank you. Well firstly the great concentration of wealth is terrible for the environment. You just gave an example. You know when the one percent of the one percent has so much power that they can actually usurp agendas even green agendas and they can do plenty of greenwashing.
but there was far more hierarchy than was necessary. It was an attempt to emulate capitalist enterprises with voting. Uh but the reason why the Yugoslav economic model self-management model collapsed was not because of its inherent dysfunctionalities. It was because the government of Yugoslavia between and made a huge error of borrowing large gigantic amounts of money from American and western banks at an interest rate of two and a half three percent and the the moment the oil crisis pushed interest rates to twenty percent Yugoslavia was over from an economic point of view. I have a question please. Where are you? I can't see you. Ah there you go. Hi. So quite a few years have passed since the Paris Climate Agreement and as we have seen the situation is not getting any better. It's actually getting quite worse. So how do extreme climate events fit into your progressive agenda if on one hand we have people who are judged by not using linen bags to shop and then we have on the other side Paul Allen who crushed a complete and full coral reef with his superyacht? What can we do and what is your agenda that can reuse all of those? Thank you. Well firstly the great concentration of wealth is terrible for the environment. You just gave an example. You know when the one percent of the one percent has so much power that they can actually usurp agendas even green agendas and they can do plenty of greenwashing.
Slavoj Žižek
I mean look at the European Union now. They talk even those ambitious targets include um using wood pellets
I mean look at the European Union now. They talk even those ambitious targets include um using wood pellets
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from turning ancient forests into plantations and they call this green. Um so when when exorbitant power is
from turning ancient forests into plantations and they call this green. Um so when when exorbitant power is
Slavoj Žižek
running
running
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the green transition the green
the green transition the green
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transition is never going to be green. Um the number one priority should be investing in renewable energy and creating a union a proper union. It's remarkable in the European Union that we have we don't have an energy union. Do you realize that? Every country plans its own renewables which is crazy you know just think of how Europe looks from a satellite. It's not that huge a place. To have a German plan, an
transition is never going to be green. Um the number one priority should be investing in renewable energy and creating a union a proper union. It's remarkable in the European Union that we have we don't have an energy union. Do you realize that? Every country plans its own renewables which is crazy you know just think of how Europe looks from a satellite. It's not that huge a place. To have a German plan, an
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Italian plan, a Slovenian plan it's it's madness. You know an extraterrestrial will tell you go and find one she will tell you. Um so we need our movements estimation was that we needed three years ago five hundred billion
Italian plan, a Slovenian plan it's it's madness. You know an extraterrestrial will tell you go and find one she will tell you. Um so we need our movements estimation was that we needed three years ago five hundred billion
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euros a year for the green transition especially when it comes to energy. And people say oh this is a lot of money where are we going to find it from? Well you're printing it anyway and giving it to Deutsche Bank to give it to Volkswagen to buy its shares. So there is a very simple way. Um even within capitalism even within the European Union as we have. We have the European Investment Bank. It's in Luxembourg the armpit of the universe. Right? It's there. It's sitting there in Luxembourg. Well it can borrow money by issuing bonds. Well issue five hundred billion worth of bonds on behalf of the whole of Europe. This bank belongs to all of us Europeans okay? And have the European Central Bank support it you even buy those bonds off it if need be. So suddenly you have half a trillion every year to spend on an energy union. But we're not doing any of this. And the reason why we're not doing it is because our politicians are in the pockets of the large corporations that want to sell their own um wind windmills right which are not part of any plan they just go and put a two hundred meter windmill on top of a mountain which is terrible for the mountain. The local community hates it, it turns the local community against renewables, and it's not part of an integrated plan. And when it rots this thing it it's not even recyclable. So it's a question of using green Keynesianism if you want you know these instruments like the one that I gave an example of. The European Investment Bank and the European Central Bank. These public financial instruments. They're tools we have them. Use them to mobilize huge
euros a year for the green transition especially when it comes to energy. And people say oh this is a lot of money where are we going to find it from? Well you're printing it anyway and giving it to Deutsche Bank to give it to Volkswagen to buy its shares. So there is a very simple way. Um even within capitalism even within the European Union as we have. We have the European Investment Bank. It's in Luxembourg the armpit of the universe. Right? It's there. It's sitting there in Luxembourg. Well it can borrow money by issuing bonds. Well issue five hundred billion worth of bonds on behalf of the whole of Europe. This bank belongs to all of us Europeans okay? And have the European Central Bank support it you even buy those bonds off it if need be. So suddenly you have half a trillion every year to spend on an energy union. But we're not doing any of this. And the reason why we're not doing it is because our politicians are in the pockets of the large corporations that want to sell their own um wind windmills right which are not part of any plan they just go and put a two hundred meter windmill on top of a mountain which is terrible for the mountain. The local community hates it, it turns the local community against renewables, and it's not part of an integrated plan. And when it rots this thing it it's not even recyclable. So it's a question of using green Keynesianism if you want you know these instruments like the one that I gave an example of. The European Investment Bank and the European Central Bank. These public financial instruments. They're tools we have them. Use them to mobilize huge
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quantities of money and press them into the service of the green transition and then moving towards a decentralized self-managed grid. You see the beauty of renewables unlike oil or natural gas or nuclear all these have need
quantities of money and press them into the service of the green transition and then moving towards a decentralized self-managed grid. You see the beauty of renewables unlike oil or natural gas or nuclear all these have need
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huge factories economies of scale so somebody's going to own them either the state or some individual or corporation. But with renewables you can have you know um solar panels everywhere you can have small windmills everywhere. You can have hydrogen producing renewable energy. So hydrogen will replace diesel in trucks and so on and
huge factories economies of scale so somebody's going to own them either the state or some individual or corporation. But with renewables you can have you know um solar panels everywhere you can have small windmills everywhere. You can have hydrogen producing renewable energy. So hydrogen will replace diesel in trucks and so on and
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all these can the ownership can be dispersed to
all these can the ownership can be dispersed to
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different neighborhoods owning different cells of that network. But that means going against the grain of the interests of corporate capitalism that wants to concentrate
different neighborhoods owning different cells of that network. But that means going against the grain of the interests of corporate capitalism that wants to concentrate
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all power in their hands. Okay I'm now given I was given a mike I will pose a question. I believe that it was in or when Slavoj you said that Alexis Tsipras was the most dangerous man in Europe right? Did I? I deny I yeah but it was Stalinist rewriting of history is not yet finished but okay yeah. self-rewriting of history. But at that point I believe it was correct and I believe you will agree too. Because um the Southern Europe was more or less
all power in their hands. Okay I'm now given I was given a mike I will pose a question. I believe that it was in or when Slavoj you said that Alexis Tsipras was the most dangerous man in Europe right? Did I? I deny I yeah but it was Stalinist rewriting of history is not yet finished but okay yeah. self-rewriting of history. But at that point I believe it was correct and I believe you will agree too. Because um the Southern Europe was more or less
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going
going
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under water. Greece was in financial trouble Italy was in financial trouble Spain Portugal and so on. We still are. Still are. Still are. And um the gamble
under water. Greece was in financial trouble Italy was in financial trouble Spain Portugal and so on. We still are. Still are. Still are. And um the gamble
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of SYRIZA and Tsipras back then was if we ascend to power and if we threaten the European authorities with defaulting not repaying our debts the panic on financial
of SYRIZA and Tsipras back then was if we ascend to power and if we threaten the European authorities with defaulting not repaying our debts the panic on financial
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markets will spread to Italy and Spain and Portugal and so on and they will have to change something in their policy towards those countries. That was assessment in and I believe it was correct and that's why I agree with Slavoj's description of Tsipras at that time. However um SYRIZA have not come to power in but in And then until then two major things changed. The first is that Draghi that you mentioned mentioned him before already um made his famous proclamation whatever it takes meaning I'll do whatever it takes to save the euro. And second as if anticipating SYRIZA coming to power in January he started with quantitative easing. No first March. First March okay. You see it's important because we were already in government. Yes and we could have stopped that. See see what I'm saying. Yes I know that's that's why I'm asking. When you came to power Mario Draghi started with quantitative easing. That means printing money buying government bonds. So the Southern of Europe was still under water but Mario Draghi came and gave them um so to call straws to breathe.
markets will spread to Italy and Spain and Portugal and so on and they will have to change something in their policy towards those countries. That was assessment in and I believe it was correct and that's why I agree with Slavoj's description of Tsipras at that time. However um SYRIZA have not come to power in but in And then until then two major things changed. The first is that Draghi that you mentioned mentioned him before already um made his famous proclamation whatever it takes meaning I'll do whatever it takes to save the euro. And second as if anticipating SYRIZA coming to power in January he started with quantitative easing. No first March. First March okay. You see it's important because we were already in government. Yes and we could have stopped that. See see what I'm saying. Yes I know that's that's why I'm asking. When you came to power Mario Draghi started with quantitative easing. That means printing money buying government bonds. So the Southern of Europe was still under water but Mario Draghi came and gave them um so to call straws to breathe.
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They could
They could
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survive under water Italy Spain and so on that's why they're still under water. But a straw was given to everyone but to Greece. So my question is in that circumstances um I believe your game was kind of lost
survive under water Italy Spain and so on that's why they're still under water. But a straw was given to everyone but to Greece. So my question is in that circumstances um I believe your game was kind of lost
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from the beginning. No you weren't here in the beginning were you? I was I was here at the beginning so you didn't hear what I said about the bonds? Yes that's why I'm asking. So my question is wouldn't a default of Greece in those circumstances be just a default of Greece? No no no no you probably weren't here at the beginning because I explained that. we had a Plan B and we had a nuclear weapon. We had the nuclear weapon now nuclear weapon is not always a good thing to have but nevertheless on that occasion it answers your question. Because okay let's let's retrace what you said because up until a point you were absolutely right. Up until the point where in March of Draghi starts printing money and giving the straw as you put it, a nice metaphor, uh to various countries including France okay? and allowing them to to continue breathing even if we defaulted. That's where you're wrong. Because if we defaulted at that point okay we're talking about the first few months. If we had if Tsipras had backed me in what we had agreed would be our strategy you see Tsipras and I had agreed that that would be our strategy. Because of his great clash with Jens Weidmann of the Bundesbank the only way he was allowed on the first of March to start giving the straw to these countries was if no debt that he already owned was written down. I owed him twenty-nine billion. I could I had in my drawer the right drawer of my desk I had a ministerial
from the beginning. No you weren't here in the beginning were you? I was I was here at the beginning so you didn't hear what I said about the bonds? Yes that's why I'm asking. So my question is wouldn't a default of Greece in those circumstances be just a default of Greece? No no no no you probably weren't here at the beginning because I explained that. we had a Plan B and we had a nuclear weapon. We had the nuclear weapon now nuclear weapon is not always a good thing to have but nevertheless on that occasion it answers your question. Because okay let's let's retrace what you said because up until a point you were absolutely right. Up until the point where in March of Draghi starts printing money and giving the straw as you put it, a nice metaphor, uh to various countries including France okay? and allowing them to to continue breathing even if we defaulted. That's where you're wrong. Because if we defaulted at that point okay we're talking about the first few months. If we had if Tsipras had backed me in what we had agreed would be our strategy you see Tsipras and I had agreed that that would be our strategy. Because of his great clash with Jens Weidmann of the Bundesbank the only way he was allowed on the first of March to start giving the straw to these countries was if no debt that he already owned was written down. I owed him twenty-nine billion. I could I had in my drawer the right drawer of my desk I had a ministerial
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decree by which I postponed the payment of those bonds of twenty-nine billion to Why? Because of the movie. Remember science fiction movie. Didn't it Ah yeah something like that. Okay? Um that would have meant that Draghi would not be able to to to buy Italian debt. Okay? The reason why we lost it was because Tsipras signaled to Draghi that he wouldn't allow me to
decree by which I postponed the payment of those bonds of twenty-nine billion to Why? Because of the movie. Remember science fiction movie. Didn't it Ah yeah something like that. Okay? Um that would have meant that Draghi would not be able to to to buy Italian debt. Okay? The reason why we lost it was because Tsipras signaled to Draghi that he wouldn't allow me to
Slavoj Žižek
do it. It's
do it. It's
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like you know you have David and Goliath. David has a chance, a chance of winning the
like you know you have David and Goliath. David has a chance, a chance of winning the
Slavoj Žižek
struggle against
struggle against
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Goliath he's got the little catapult. But if as David is going into the battlefield you take the catapult away from him then you lose. Okay I would just like to say something I owe you an insult as to all my friends to conclude. First I'm sad that we cannot go on and on because you know at the end at least there was a little bit of disagreement. I think that the reason Yugoslavia fell apart was more complex. Of course. I said economically. I agree because you know we paid the the big enigma is why Yugoslavia which was held up as the most democratic open blah blah paid the most horrible price with the civil war but let's drop that. Now really to conclude I will strike back
Goliath he's got the little catapult. But if as David is going into the battlefield you take the catapult away from him then you lose. Okay I would just like to say something I owe you an insult as to all my friends to conclude. First I'm sad that we cannot go on and on because you know at the end at least there was a little bit of disagreement. I think that the reason Yugoslavia fell apart was more complex. Of course. I said economically. I agree because you know we paid the the big enigma is why Yugoslavia which was held up as the most democratic open blah blah paid the most horrible price with the civil war but let's drop that. Now really to conclude I will strike back
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at you with Monty
at you with Monty
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Python the same joke you know from "Life of Brian" movie I think no? Yeah where they have this Palestinian front they say what have the Romans done for us you know nothing
Python the same joke you know from "Life of Brian" movie I think no? Yeah where they have this Palestinian front they say what have the Romans done for us you know nothing
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bridges roads yes
bridges roads yes
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yeah and now I will say the same too what did Yanis do for us here? Nothing. Okay he explained very well the SYRIZA situation. He give us a wonderful overview of today's capitalism. He and so on and so on but
yeah and now I will say the same too what did Yanis do for us here? Nothing. Okay he explained very well the SYRIZA situation. He give us a wonderful overview of today's capitalism. He and so on and so on but
Slavoj Žižek
overall it was nothing. So thank you yeah.
overall it was nothing. So thank you yeah.