Zizek: Electing Trump will 'shake up' the system - UpFront
Interview · Al Jazeera English ·
published 2016-11-16 · 0:12:20 · 2,153 words
the date above is when the video was uploaded, no recording date was found
ideologydemocracygeopolitics-warfascism-populismrevolution-violenceeveryday-life
Žižek argues that Donald Trump’s chaotic presidency, while dangerous, serves a necessary function by shattering the US political status quo and neutralizing the establishment candidate, Hillary Clinton. He contrasts Trump’s vulgarity with the more sinister, cold-warrior tendencies of figures like Ted Cruz and Rick Santorum, suggesting that this disruption creates the space for a genuine leftist mobilization. Ultimately, Žižek claims that the cost of maintaining the status quo, potential global war and ecological catastrophe, is far higher than the chaos Trump introduces, though he maintains that the Left must reclaim the language of decency.
every located moment in this recording, click one to read it
The ideas in it 6
in the order they first come up; click a row for what he does with the idea here
as “neutralized”
The process by which the Democratic establishment (Hillary Clinton) absorbed and defused the threat of Bernie Sanders, thereby allowing Trump to win by excluding the 'authentic' left-wing option.
as “spirit of urgency”
The chaotic, disruptive energy Trump brings to the political spectrum, which Žižek views as a necessary catalyst for change rather than purely a danger.
A Maoist maxim cited by Žižek to argue that chaos is an 'excellent' situation for revolutionary potential, as it breaks existing structures.
as “paper tigers”
A Maoist concept used to describe Trump: seemingly harmless or ridiculous figures who can still inflict real damage ('bite') if underestimated.
The paradoxical identification ordinary people feel with Trump; they recognize his vulgarity as 'authentic' because it mirrors their own suppressed, private thoughts, despite it being a constructed persona.
Žižek’s ironic self-description for a leftist who argues that the Left should defend 'simple decency' and public language against the brutality of populists like Trump, not to support them, but to reclaim moral ground.
Stories he reaches for 2
Žižek quotes Mao Zedong: 'There is disorder under the heaven, the situation is excellent,' using it to justify the view that political chaos is a precondition for positive restructuring.
“there is disorder under the heaven, the situation is excellent.”
Žižek explains Trump’s strategy: when he says something vulgar, Democrats think he is 'committing suicide,' but ordinary people identify with him because his vulgarity makes private, suppressed thoughts public, creating a sense of 'fake ordinariness' where he seems 'one of us.'
“ordinary people precisely identified with his vulgarity. he is one of us indeed. he's an ordinary guy like me. of course it's the fake ordinariness.”
People invoked 8
Rick Santorum negative
Grouped with Cruz as a 'true monster' and Republican politician emboldened by Trump, representing the sinister side of the political spectrum.
Deng Xiaoping negative
Used as a cynical example of the high human cost ('millions died') of revolutionary outcomes that ultimately serve the establishment.
Ted Cruz negative
Cited as one of the 'true monsters' and 'cold warriors' who are emboldened by Trump, representing a more dangerous, serious threat than Trump himself.
Donald Trump positive
Žižek calls him a 'scam' and 'total brutal pragmatist,' but intellectually values his role in shaking up the system, neutralizing the status quo, and exposing the 'fake ordinariness' of populist identification.
Bernie Sanders positive
Described as the 'more authentic' candidate whose threat was 'neutralized' by the Democratic establishment, preventing a genuine leftist alternative.
Mentioned briefly in the context of the 'scare of Donald Trump' and the comparison of 'paper tigers' biting.
Mao Zedong positive
Žižek identifies as an 'old maoist' and cites Mao’s saying about 'disorder under the heaven' as a positive framework for understanding political chaos.
Hillary Clinton negative
Žižek views her as the 'establishment candidate' who built an 'impossible coalition' and 'neutralized' Bernie Sanders; he considers her a 'cold warrior' whose policies are more dangerous than Trump's.
Transcript 76 turns
Interviewer
slavoj jk, thanks for joining me on upfront. leftists, socialists, liberals, progressives, all over the world, even moderate conservatives, are mourning the victory of donald trump. and yet you, one of the world's best-known leftist philosophers, best-known marxists, said you wanted him to win and you would have voted for him if you could. what on earth were you thinking? surely you must regret saying that now.
slavoj jk, thanks for joining me on upfront. leftists, socialists, liberals, progressives, all over the world, even moderate conservatives, are mourning the victory of donald trump. and yet you, one of the world's best-known leftist philosophers, best-known marxists, said you wanted him to win and you would have voted for him if you could. what on earth were you thinking? surely you must regret saying that now.
Slavoj Žižek
no, i don't regret saying it because for me, really an old-fashioned leftist, the main task today is this one. how to get things moving to restructure the political space of the united states. and for me, hillary clinton is the establishment candidate. she built an impossible coalition. wall street, occupy wall street, saudi arabian money, lgbt plus and so on and so on. but somebody was excluded. hilary won. because he neutralized to put it gently bernie sanders the more authentic okay so you didn't like hillary clinton but what does donald trump what positive does it bring that you?
no, i don't regret saying it because for me, really an old-fashioned leftist, the main task today is this one. how to get things moving to restructure the political space of the united states. and for me, hillary clinton is the establishment candidate. she built an impossible coalition. wall street, occupy wall street, saudi arabian money, lgbt plus and so on and so on. but somebody was excluded. hilary won. because he neutralized to put it gently bernie sanders the more authentic okay so you didn't like hillary clinton but what does donald trump what positive does it bring that you?
Interviewer
wo
wo
Slavoj Žižek
why would you what he brings is the spirit of urgency all around the political spectrum, chaos, and you know, i'm an old maoist nonetheless, you know, which is my favorite mao zedong saying. there is disorder under the heaven, the situation is excellent. which means this one. in this chaos, which i think it's not as dangerous as sometimes people paint. you say it's not as dangerous and you say chaos.
why would you what he brings is the spirit of urgency all around the political spectrum, chaos, and you know, i'm an old maoist nonetheless, you know, which is my favorite mao zedong saying. there is disorder under the heaven, the situation is excellent. which means this one. in this chaos, which i think it's not as dangerous as sometimes people paint. you say it's not as dangerous and you say chaos.
Interviewer
can help shake up the system, bring a sense of urgency. but in order for that urgency, in order for what you've written is awakening of a more authentic left, is your phrase, in order for that to happen, millions of people have to lose health in the united states. the iranian nuclear deal has to be rewritten. the fight against what trump calls the chinese hoax of climate change has to be abandoned. basically, millions of people in the us and around the world have to suffer in the short and the long.
can help shake up the system, bring a sense of urgency. but in order for that urgency, in order for what you've written is awakening of a more authentic left, is your phrase, in order for that to happen, millions of people have to lose health in the united states. the iranian nuclear deal has to be rewritten. the fight against what trump calls the chinese hoax of climate change has to be abandoned. basically, millions of people in the us and around the world have to suffer in the short and the long.
Slavoj Žižek
long run. i'm not sure.
long run. i'm not sure.
Interviewer
for for you to get what you want. i not
for for you to get what you want. i not
Slavoj Žižek
frankly, i'm not so sure that all this will happen.
frankly, i'm not so sure that all this will happen.
Interviewer
you don't think 20 million people will lose health insurance next year when donald trump comes into power?
you don't think 20 million people will lose health insurance next year when donald trump comes into power?
Slavoj Žižek
i't.
i't.
Interviewer
that a. it's worth paying for you for your chaos.
that a. it's worth paying for you for your chaos.
Slavoj Žižek
i don't buy this liberal-left propaganda..
i don't buy this liberal-left propaganda..
Interviewer
as scholars across the spectrum have warned of his
as scholars across the spectrum have warned of his
Slavoj Žižek
authoritarian
authoritarian
Interviewer
sl.
sl.
Slavoj Žižek
no, mitt romney is not a.
no, mitt romney is not a.
Interviewer
liberal. he warned against donald
liberal. he warned against donald
Slavoj Žižek
yeah no, but it. okay. i. just to give. this scare of donald trump. he's really a scared. a tiger in your view. paper tigers also can bite. no well, no it's.
yeah no, but it. okay. i. just to give. this scare of donald trump. he's really a scared. a tiger in your view. paper tigers also can bite. no well, no it's.
Interviewer
it's interesting that you should say bite because some would say look at you and say it's easy for you as a white male, middle class academic to push for this chaos-inducing trump presidency because you're not going to suffer as a result of it. you're not a person of color. you're not a muslim who might be banned from the us. you're not a latino who might be deported from the us. you're speaking from a position of white privilege.
it's interesting that you should say bite because some would say look at you and say it's easy for you as a white male, middle class academic to push for this chaos-inducing trump presidency because you're not going to suffer as a result of it. you're not a person of color. you're not a muslim who might be banned from the us. you're not a latino who might be deported from the us. you're speaking from a position of white privilege.
Slavoj Žižek
maybe, but i will tell you first, there are also differences between white people and so on and so on. i'm paying my own price for what positions. but let's drop that. that's not important. i claim that i know i'm, as they say, walking on a very thin ice. but i think my vision is even much more pessimistic than yours. i'm claiming that we are really internationally approaching a very difficult moment. maybe with in eastern europe, ukraine, in syria and so on. there is a serious chance of a new world conflict, ecological catastrophes, refugees and so on, all that. and my point is this one. i don't think we can afford what hillary clinton stood for. you know, all but we can afford what donald trump stands for. yeah.
maybe, but i will tell you first, there are also differences between white people and so on and so on. i'm paying my own price for what positions. but let's drop that. that's not important. i claim that i know i'm, as they say, walking on a very thin ice. but i think my vision is even much more pessimistic than yours. i'm claiming that we are really internationally approaching a very difficult moment. maybe with in eastern europe, ukraine, in syria and so on. there is a serious chance of a new world conflict, ecological catastrophes, refugees and so on, all that. and my point is this one. i don't think we can afford what hillary clinton stood for. you know, all but we can afford what donald trump stands for. yeah.
Interviewer
logical
logical
Slavoj Žižek
because he.
because he.
Interviewer
climate change denier that's your
climate change denier that's your
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, but thereby he opens up a space for radical reshuffling of the entire political space.
yeah, but thereby he opens up a space for radical reshuffling of the entire political space.
Interviewer
what's your evidence for that? you say he opens up a space. where in history has that actually ever happened? where has it succeeded? you say that you're a former maoist. it didn't work in maoist china. it didn't work in germany. when people voted for the nazis in 1932 to shake up
what's your evidence for that? you say he opens up a space. where in history has that actually ever happened? where has it succeeded? you say that you're a former maoist. it didn't work in maoist china. it didn't work in germany. when people voted for the nazis in 1932 to shake up
Slavoj Žižek
i find don't think this is a good parallel.
i find don't think this is a good parallel.
Interviewer
give me your parallel. give me a parallel where
give me your parallel. give me a parallel where
Slavoj Žižek
okay, no, no.
okay, no, no.
Interviewer
let me
let me
Slavoj Žižek
well did it work? it worked with mao. i think, and it's a very cynical marxist interpretation, that the true outcome of cultural revolution was deng xiaoping. and how many millions of people died for deng xiaoping? yep. i
well did it work? it worked with mao. i think, and it's a very cynical marxist interpretation, that the true outcome of cultural revolution was deng xiaoping. and how many millions of people died for deng xiaoping? yep. i
Interviewer
so to go back to my earlier question, millions of people have to suffer.
so to go back to my earlier question, millions of people have to suffer.
Slavoj Žižek
for your vision of a better world to come., do you think that we live now in a world? millions already suffer. s. add to those suffering. i mean, millions already suffer.
for your vision of a better world to come., do you think that we live now in a world? millions already suffer. s. add to those suffering. i mean, millions already suffer.
Interviewer
but you want to elect a climate change denier, someone who wants to tear up health insurance, tear up an iran nuclear deal that could prevent.
but you want to elect a climate change denier, someone who wants to tear up health insurance, tear up an iran nuclear deal that could prevent.
Slavoj Žižek
a major war in the middle east. you don't get it.
a major war in the middle east. you don't get it.
Interviewer
i don't.
i don't.
Slavoj Žižek
if things go on the way they go now. we are approaching a catastrophe and i'm ready to do whatever you want. so just to shake up the system. what's your phrase? what are you trying to do? shake up, not destroy. i'm not an old marxist who believes that some working class party or communist party will emerge. the the whole political map has to be redrawn. we need new options.
if things go on the way they go now. we are approaching a catastrophe and i'm ready to do whatever you want. so just to shake up the system. what's your phrase? what are you trying to do? shake up, not destroy. i'm not an old marxist who believes that some working class party or communist party will emerge. the the whole political map has to be redrawn. we need new options.
Interviewer
a lot of people want to withdraw the political battle.
a lot of people want to withdraw the political battle.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, but they don't want to pay a price.
yeah, but they don't want to pay a price.
Interviewer
so you will pay a price. to go back to my earlier question, who's paying the price, slik? you won't be paying the price. it's women in hijabs in the street who are having their headscarves pulled off by trump supporters. it's racists who are emboldened. it's poor black people who are going to lose health insurance in the united states. they're the ones paying the price. you won't be.
so you will pay a price. to go back to my earlier question, who's paying the price, slik? you won't be paying the price. it's women in hijabs in the street who are having their headscarves pulled off by trump supporters. it's racists who are emboldened. it's poor black people who are going to lose health insurance in the united states. they're the ones paying the price. you won't be.
Slavoj Žižek
it's very easy.
it's very easy.
Interviewer
for others to pay the price for your utopian vision.
for others to pay the price for your utopian vision.
Slavoj Žižek
many would say no, but again, again, you are putting it in this instrument you put it in who's paying the price? no words. no and then what does then your option amount to? let we all criticize hillary, but let's stick with her. let's go on with the status quo you wanted bernie sanders. sorry you wanted bernie sanders. so how did you go from bernie sanders to donald trump? because i think that the big mistake of democrats was to neutralize bernie sanders. many would agree.
many would say no, but again, again, you are putting it in this instrument you put it in who's paying the price? no words. no and then what does then your option amount to? let we all criticize hillary, but let's stick with her. let's go on with the status quo you wanted bernie sanders. sorry you wanted bernie sanders. so how did you go from bernie sanders to donald trump? because i think that the big mistake of democrats was to neutralize bernie sanders. many would agree.
Interviewer
with you on that. on the one hand, you're saying donald trump can shake up the system, create space for change. on the other hand, when i say he's a dangerous ideogue, he's going to abandon climate, you say that's all liberal hysteria.
with you on that. on the one hand, you're saying donald trump can shake up the system, create space for change. on the other hand, when i say he's a dangerous ideogue, he's going to abandon climate, you say that's all liberal hysteria.
Slavoj Žižek
no, no, no.
no, no, no.
Interviewer
danger who's going to shake up the system or is he a paper tiger?
danger who's going to shake up the system or is he a paper tiger?
Slavoj Žižek
he... de maybe. i'm wrong here, but that's how i see the situation. he is dangerous. but at the same time, the true monsters are for me, people like rick santorum, ted cruz and so on and so on. republican politicians who are now all emboldened by don
he... de maybe. i'm wrong here, but that's how i see the situation. he is dangerous. but at the same time, the true monsters are for me, people like rick santorum, ted cruz and so on and so on. republican politicians who are now all emboldened by don
Interviewer
don trump's presidency. you are aware
don trump's presidency. you are aware
Slavoj Žižek
will
will
Interviewer
he now controls, hold on, he controls the white house. republicans control the senate, the house of representatives. he will now appoint a ninth deciding swing voter to the supreme court. the republicans have a unified government to do all the things that you claim to hate.
he now controls, hold on, he controls the white house. republicans control the senate, the house of representatives. he will now appoint a ninth deciding swing voter to the supreme court. the republicans have a unified government to do all the things that you claim to hate.
Slavoj Žižek
yes, but again, for me, the main thing is political mobilization of the left to break out of the status quo.
yes, but again, for me, the main thing is political mobilization of the left to break out of the status quo.
Interviewer
how do you
how do you
Slavoj Žižek
where?
where?
Interviewer
how do you know they're going to break out? how do you know they all just won to go home depressed and defeated at the sight of a unified republican government
how do you know they're going to break out? how do you know they all just won to go home depressed and defeated at the sight of a unified republican government
Slavoj Žižek
the j.
the j.
Interviewer
no further brings money into
no further brings money into
Slavoj Žižek
i don't know. speaking of money into politics, don't forget that the establishment candidate was hillary clinton.
i don't know. speaking of money into politics, don't forget that the establishment candidate was hillary clinton.
Interviewer
but the republican supreme court, the republican court is what brought in unlimited funding into us politics.
but the republican supreme court, the republican court is what brought in unlimited funding into us politics.
Slavoj Žižek
i going to increase donald trump's i know i know but again i still think that. donald trump is scam. i'm not afraid to use this term. but if he is a total brutal pragmatist, i don't think that all these scares will be realized and so on and so. this is
i going to increase donald trump's i know i know but again i still think that. donald trump is scam. i'm not afraid to use this term. but if he is a total brutal pragmatist, i don't think that all these scares will be realized and so on and so. this is
Interviewer
but this your please help me out with this.
but this your please help me out with this.
Slavoj Žižek
objection.
objection.
Interviewer
you don't think the scares will be realized, but you think he'll help shake up the system. either he is going to shake up the system, in which case he's crazy dangerous, or he's not, in which case why vote for him to try and shake up the system? it's a complete contradiction in your.
you don't think the scares will be realized, but you think he'll help shake up the system. either he is going to shake up the system, in which case he's crazy dangerous, or he's not, in which case why vote for him to try and shake up the system? it's a complete contradiction in your.
Slavoj Žižek
i, i'm not saying which one vote for him. i would abstain in the election.
i, i'm not saying which one vote for him. i would abstain in the election.
Interviewer
changed your position because earlier before the
changed your position because earlier before the
Slavoj Žižek
no, i the channel they used a two-minute clip then afterwards but let's not go into so you wouldn't have voted for donald trump? let's just i would abstain i would abstain. no, all i'm saying is... that in this situation in which we are now only some kind of a shake-up can save us. and one good thing about donald trump, and it's an obscenity to call this a good thing, is that he put into great disarray, it almost fell apart. okay, now maybe the power will reunite them, the republican party. now democratic party will have to rethink its defeat and so on and so on. out of all this, an authentic leftist alternative may emerge. i i.
no, i the channel they used a two-minute clip then afterwards but let's not go into so you wouldn't have voted for donald trump? let's just i would abstain i would abstain. no, all i'm saying is... that in this situation in which we are now only some kind of a shake-up can save us. and one good thing about donald trump, and it's an obscenity to call this a good thing, is that he put into great disarray, it almost fell apart. okay, now maybe the power will reunite them, the republican party. now democratic party will have to rethink its defeat and so on and so on. out of all this, an authentic leftist alternative may emerge. i i.
Interviewer
emerge it's a big
emerge it's a big
Slavoj Žižek
me? yes. but you know you are saying as if even if it doesn't remain, you know what i the cost is
me? yes. but you know you are saying as if even if it doesn't remain, you know what i the cost is
Interviewer
high i think is what we're discussed.
high i think is what we're discussed.
Slavoj Žižek
okay, let me ask. but you know what? the highest cost is the cost of status quo going on. we are approaching a potential global war with hillary who is more a cold warrior than trump.
okay, let me ask. but you know what? the highest cost is the cost of status quo going on. we are approaching a potential global war with hillary who is more a cold warrior than trump.
Interviewer
okay, let's see what happens when the iran deal is torn up. in april this year, you say that donald trump is scum and you would have abstained. in april of this year, you told the guardian's gary younge, that trump, who let's not forget, called for a ban on muslims entering the us, wants to build a wall on the border, wants to bring back torture, encouraged physical attacks on protesters. threat threaten the media and the judiciary. you said about him, quote, he's a pretty ordinary centrist politician.
okay, let's see what happens when the iran deal is torn up. in april this year, you say that donald trump is scum and you would have abstained. in april of this year, you told the guardian's gary younge, that trump, who let's not forget, called for a ban on muslims entering the us, wants to build a wall on the border, wants to bring back torture, encouraged physical attacks on protesters. threat threaten the media and the judiciary. you said about him, quote, he's a pretty ordinary centrist politician.
Slavoj Žižek
you cannot be serious. surely you're just trolling people. you're just provoking. no, i think no, a total opportunist. look, don't you remember what trump said about me?
you cannot be serious. surely you're just trolling people. you're just provoking. no, i think no, a total opportunist. look, don't you remember what trump said about me?
Interviewer
what is ordinary about donald trump's attacks on protesters, attacks on the media, attacks on
what is ordinary about donald trump's attacks on protesters, attacks on the media, attacks on
Slavoj Žižek
carry.
carry.
Interviewer
attacks on muslims. what is ordinary?
attacks on muslims. what is ordinary?
Slavoj Žižek
i will tell you. here it was his pretty ingenious strategy. the greatest stupidity of democrats was, didn't you feel this? how whenever he said something extremely vulgar, stupid, they thought now he committed suicide, now we got him. they didn't get the logic of his popularity. ordinary people precisely identified with his vulgarity. he is one of us indeed. he's an ordinary guy like me. of course it's the fake ordinariness.
i will tell you. here it was his pretty ingenious strategy. the greatest stupidity of democrats was, didn't you feel this? how whenever he said something extremely vulgar, stupid, they thought now he committed suicide, now we got him. they didn't get the logic of his popularity. ordinary people precisely identified with his vulgarity. he is one of us indeed. he's an ordinary guy like me. of course it's the fake ordinariness.
Interviewer
it's different to say he's an ordinary guy and to say he's an ordinary centrist politician, as if he's some kind of moderate. if he's a moderate, then who is?
it's different to say he's an ordinary guy and to say he's an ordinary centrist politician, as if he's some kind of moderate. if he's a moderate, then who is?
Slavoj Žižek
i claim that now come we come we will see what will happen to another thesis. i claim that he is not a dangerous guy who is appearing to be polite. that all his violent outbursts, completely vulgar, tasteless statements mask the fact that there is nothing extraordinary about him that literally in his wait. and i'm aware, my god, i've written as you pointed out about it. let me be absolutely clear. as a leftist conservative, sorry, the irony, by conservative i don't mean pro-trump, which i'm not, i mean a guy who paradoxically think, and i hope we agree here, that precisely with persons like trump, who are bringing unheard of brutality into public language, things that many of us unfortunately thought but kept private, he made them public and so on. in such a situation, and i thought i like it, that the left shouldn't be ashamed to appear as a protector of simple decency, human values and so on and so on. i think the way we talk publicly matters.
i claim that now come we come we will see what will happen to another thesis. i claim that he is not a dangerous guy who is appearing to be polite. that all his violent outbursts, completely vulgar, tasteless statements mask the fact that there is nothing extraordinary about him that literally in his wait. and i'm aware, my god, i've written as you pointed out about it. let me be absolutely clear. as a leftist conservative, sorry, the irony, by conservative i don't mean pro-trump, which i'm not, i mean a guy who paradoxically think, and i hope we agree here, that precisely with persons like trump, who are bringing unheard of brutality into public language, things that many of us unfortunately thought but kept private, he made them public and so on. in such a situation, and i thought i like it, that the left shouldn't be ashamed to appear as a protector of simple decency, human values and so on and so on. i think the way we talk publicly matters.