Zizek interview: How I rethink depression, communism &apocalypse during pandemic
Interview · Qing Wang ·
2020-06-16 · 0:47:38 · 6,360 words
with Xin (Chinese journalist)
capitalismcommunism-socialismideologyecology-climategeopolitics-warfascism-populismrace-antisemitismtechnology-ai-cyberspaceeveryday-lifephilosophy-generalrevolution-violenceeconomicsethicssubjectivity
Second lockdown interview with Xin, a Chinese journalist in Amsterdam. Žižek reports his own depression and the mood of anxious uncertainty, then argues the pandemic is an eminently political moment demanding a reorganization of society along what he provocatively calls 'communism', a modest wartime economy guaranteeing necessities (health, food, water, electricity, internet) by suspending market logic, not party dictatorship. He analyzes the false freedom-vs-control debate, the failure of European solidarity, the risk of a 'barbarism' emerging without global coordination, and insists we must mourn not individual deaths but the death of an entire way of life.
every located moment in this recording, click one to read it
The ideas in it 10
in the order they first come up; click a row for what he does with the idea here
What he says we should really mourn, not only individual deaths but the irreversible passing of the old normal, since even if the virus is controlled the old times will never return.
as “screen new deal”
Naomi Klein's term he adopts for the bubble-isolation scenario: stay at home, drones deliver food, doctors' exams by internet, total social control and a divided society.
Those who prepare food, provide healthcare, etc., 'not so much classical proletarians', who cannot isolate and remain exposed to risk under high-tech corona capitalism.
The dystopian tendency where mega-companies plus the state build protected bubbles for the privileged (drones, telemedicine) while a new servant class is exposed to risk, a brutal new class society.
His metaphor for the pandemic's predicament: a five-fingers blow where you survive as long as you sit calmly (lockdown) but drop dead the moment you start moving (reopening), so the true test is restarting, not the lockdown.
as “universal basic income”
A direct social intervention that bypasses market logic to guarantee a minimum survival, already effectively happening via government payouts, independent of immediate economic concerns.
as “communism”
His modest redefinition: a society that, beyond market rules, organizes so nobody starves and everybody can lead a modest decent life, explicitly not party dictatorship, just a suspension of market logic to guarantee necessities.
The political-ideological ideal that failed in the crisis, 'everybody is on his, her own legs', possibly delivering the death blow to European unity.
The emerging risk, a new barbarism, with elements already visible in the US (gun-hoarding, zombie fantasies), if there is no global healthcare coordination and no solidarity.
Despite his usual skepticism, he endorses its everyday-manners aspect, politeness, respect for others, respecting the rules, as exactly what the crisis demands now.
Stories he reaches for 1
Citing Cambridge Analytica and friends in Israel, he notes state agencies with Google and Facebook already totally control all digital communication, so panic over pandemic phone-tracking is misplaced, the control predates it.
“government agencies in connection with google, facebook and so on already totally control all our digital communication”
Works invoked 4
His own documentary; recalls filming the desert graveyard of abandoned Boeing jets near LA as an image of immobilized, senseless machinery, the analogue of pandemic emptiness.
Blames American gun-buyers for projecting these stupid fantasy scenarios onto reality, arming themselves against infected 'vampires' and 'zombies', a symptom of emerging barbarism.
Kill Bill Vol. 2 film
The five-fingers-blow scene is deployed as Žižek's central metaphor for the pandemic predicament: survive while sitting still (lockdown), die when you move (reopen).
The Wandering Earth film
Chinese sci-fi blockbuster in which the whole earth is isolated and moved away from the sun; cited as the kind of new fiction a social-distancing era might require.
People invoked 10
Jair Bolsonaro negative
Paired with Trump as the brutal 'let's start moving again' option that prefers the functioning system over lives.
Andrew Cuomo negative
Named alongside Eric Schmidt as representing the technologically controlled self-isolation pole of the U.S. oscillation.
Vladimir Lenin positive
Invoked via 'wartime communism' as the closest analogue to the emergency economy of necessities Žižek proposes, explicitly not the dictatorship of the party.
Donald Trump negative
Embodiment of the 'back to work even if thousands more die' option; also forced to invoke cold-war production powers and pay out a quasi-UBI, which Žižek reads as confirming the need to suspend the market.
Naomi Klein positive
Credited with the term 'screen new deal', which Žižek adopts to name the bubble-isolation dystopia he criticizes.
Cited for proposing that the whole French health system should be restructured, an example of the new-era reorganization Žižek expects.
Giorgio Agamben negative
Target of Žižek's rejection of the philosopher's worry that lockdowns excuse authoritarian limits on freedom; Žižek counters that governments are desperate, not omnipotent.
The Chinese journalist conducting the interview, based in Amsterdam; Žižek is warm and careful with her ('also be careful in amsterdam').
Karl Marx positive
Cited as the source of the formula 'to everybody according to his needs, from everybody according to his abilities,' which Žižek takes as the principle of the emergency communism he wants.
Eric Schmidt negative
Named with Cuomo as pushing the bubble-isolation / screen-new-deal model.
What it argues
pandemic as political turning point and the entry into a new era'communism' redefined as wartime emergency society of necessities beyond the marketmourning the death of an entire way of life, not just individual deathsthe false freedom-vs-control debate — we are already totally surveilledbreakdown of European solidarity as a possible death blow to EU unitybarbarism vs. global coordination — the risk if there is no worldwide healthcarepersonal depression, uncertainty, and the frustration of unpredictability
Dialectical moves 6
“the true test of our society is starting to move again — sitting down means lockdown, but the moment you get up and start moving you drop dead.”
The real test is not the lockdown (which we can endure) but the reopening, when the suspended market logic must be reactivated on new terms.
“we are not in a purely medical situation, we are now in an eminently political moment.”
Inverts the common framing of the crisis as primarily a health emergency into a political one demanding social reorganization.
“what we should really mourn is not the deaths of individuals but the death of an entire way of life.”
Shifts the object of mourning from the personal to the civilizational: the irreversible loss of the old normal.
“those who are afraid of government tracking should be told: sorry, you are too late.”
The feared loss of freedom is already accomplished; the tracking debate obscures the prior fact of total digital surveillance.
“far from confronting an all-powerful government, governments are basically desperate.”
Inverts the Agambenian image of sovereign control: power here is panicked and dependent on popular collaboration, not omnipotent.
“all these things which are supposed to function are all of a sudden there without sense — the emptiness reveals the question of meaning.”
The immobilized machinery (abandoned planes, empty streets) makes visible the contingency and possible meaninglessness of the everyday order.
Claims 20
asserts
We are entering a new era: even if the virus is brought under control, the old times will never return and society will have to be restructured economically and psychologically.the irreversibility of the pandemic's rupture
asserts
What we should really mourn is not individual deaths but the death of an entire way of life.the proper object of collective mourning
asserts
By 'communism' he means a modest society that, beyond market rules, organizes so nobody starves and everybody leads a decent life — explicitly not party dictatorship.his redefinition of communism
asserts
Priorities must shift from restarting the market (cars, fashion, consumption) to the essentials: health, food, electricity, water, garbage disposal, internet.economic priorities during the crisis
asserts
Both a reliable state apparatus and local community self-organization are needed — the state cannot do it alone, and communities must care for the isolated and mentally ill.the dual structure of crisis response
reframes
The pandemic is not a purely medical situation but an eminently political moment demanding a reorganization of society.the nature of the crisis
rejects
The panic over phone-tracking government control is misplaced because state agencies with Google and Facebook already totally control all our digital communication.the freedom-vs-surveillance tracking debate
rejects
Agamben-style fears of an all-powerful government are wrong: governments are desperate, people gladly comply with lockdowns, and nobody wants them to continue.Agamben's worry about authoritarian suspension of freedoms
asserts
European solidarity failed in the crisis — each country was on its own — and this may turn out to be the death blow to European unity.the failure of EU solidarity
asserts
Lockdowns work, as China and other places have proven, and should be carried out in a disciplined way with the full collaboration of the people.the efficacy of lockdowns
rejects
The Trump/Bolsonaro option — restart the economy even if it means thousands more deaths — gives preference to the system as it is and is a dangerous game.the 'back to work at any cost' position
rejects
The screen-new-deal bubble-isolation model produces a brutal new class society of the safely isolated versus exposed caretakers, unworkable in the third world.technologically controlled self-isolation
asserts
Anti-lockdown protesters are mostly the populist right (AfD, Trump partisans), with the left a small minority — it is in the left's interest that lockdowns work.the political composition of anti-lockdown protest
asserts
We need global healthcare — coordinating reaction, tracking cases internationally — or a new barbarism will emerge.the necessity of global coordination
asserts
Cuba keeps its numbers low and, unlike some other countries, is not cheating — we need such ideals even where we disagree politically.Cuba as a positive reference point
asserts
The everyday-manners aspect of Confucianism — politeness, respect, observing the rules — is what the crisis demands now.the relevance of Confucian manners
asserts
Philosophy cannot provide clear answers but can compel us to fully grasp the dimension of the crisis — that it concerns the whole organization of society and our mental stability.the responsibility of philosophy
reframes
Although everything changed, basically the old problems — immigration, globalization — returned in much stronger form.what is genuinely new in the crisis
asserts
Americans arming themselves during the pandemic is absolute madness — they are projecting Hollywood zombie/vampire fantasies into reality.the U.S. gun-buying response
asserts
Cleaner air from lockdown is a paradoxical byproduct that creates conditions for stronger storms and tornadoes — an unintended consequence nobody anticipated.the ecological paradox of reduced pollution
Quotes 12
“we are not in a purely medical situation. we are now in an eminently political moment.”Slavoj Žižek · the crisis is political
“what we should really mourn is the death of an entire way of life.”Slavoj Žižek · mourning the old normal
“the true test of our society is starting to move again.”Slavoj Žižek · the kill-bill test of reopening
“the moment you get up and start moving, you drop dead. isn't this our predicament now?”Slavoj Žižek · lockdown dialectic
“those who are afraid, we should tell them, sorry, you are too late.”Slavoj Žižek · surveillance predates the panic
“maybe this was the death blow to european unity”Slavoj Žižek · EU solidarity failure
“this is the moment of confucianism, the moment of simple respect, respecting the rules, being polite”Slavoj Žižek · confucian manners needed now
“philosophy cannot provide here clear answers, but it can compel us to fully grasp the dimension of the crisis.”Slavoj Žižek · philosophy's responsibility
“although everything changed, but basically just the old problems returned, immigration, globalization in a much stronger form.”Slavoj Žižek · old problems return stronger
“those last hours before i go to sleep till midnight. somewhere are my happiest hours because i know only sleep is awaiting me”Slavoj Žižek · the mood of the crisis
“they have seen too many stupid hollywood movies that they will be in a safe house alone and ill people like vampires, like zombies will attack them”Slavoj Žižek · gun-buying as projected fantasy
“it's not a bright communism, it's almost more like what Lenin and others called a wartime communism.”Slavoj Žižek · communism as wartime emergency
Transcript 142 turns
Slavoj Žižek
you know how i know? you know, subtle sign that i am depressed. you know, when it's a glad moment for me. you'll be lost. i check twice a day news in the morning at early in the evening. and then... those last hours before i go to sleep till midnight. somewhere are my happiest hours because i know only sleep is awaiting me and i'm glad to disappear in sleep. and every morning i awaken pretty depressed. so it's a sad life, you know.
you know how i know? you know, subtle sign that i am depressed. you know, when it's a glad moment for me. you'll be lost. i check twice a day news in the morning at early in the evening. and then... those last hours before i go to sleep till midnight. somewhere are my happiest hours because i know only sleep is awaiting me and i'm glad to disappear in sleep. and every morning i awaken pretty depressed. so it's a sad life, you know.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
hello everyone, this is xin and i am a chinese journalist living in europe. i know many of you got to know me through the interview that i did with slavoj žižek last year, one year later. all of us are now in this lockdown life. i was also wondering how is professor žižek doing, so i decided to speak to him again. hello! hello, hello. hey, hello, professor, how are you?
hello everyone, this is xin and i am a chinese journalist living in europe. i know many of you got to know me through the interview that i did with slavoj žižek last year, one year later. all of us are now in this lockdown life. i was also wondering how is professor žižek doing, so i decided to speak to him again. hello! hello, hello. hey, hello, professor, how are you?
Slavoj Žižek
still alive are you in berlin or where
still alive are you in berlin or where
Xin (Chinese journalist)
i am in amsterdam.
i am in amsterdam.
Slavoj Žižek
well.
well.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
i mean answer that. oh. how are you doing?
i mean answer that. oh. how are you doing?
Slavoj Žižek
there how is it there tense or getting better not you
there how is it there tense or getting better not you
Xin (Chinese journalist)
i think dutch people are still quite relaxed about it. you don't have to wear a mask to go around the street and you don't really have to stay at home if you really want to go out. but they do advise people to stay at home. um, how is that in slovenia right now?
i think dutch people are still quite relaxed about it. you don't have to wear a mask to go around the street and you don't really have to stay at home if you really want to go out. but they do advise people to stay at home. um, how is that in slovenia right now?
Slavoj Žižek
okay, are we beginning now? you ask me questions. i will try to be short. no, okay. in slovenia, we
okay, are we beginning now? you ask me questions. i will try to be short. no, okay. in slovenia, we
Xin (Chinese journalist)
excuse me, excuse me, professor, if you could just lower your camera a little bit to your face. yeah, that's perfect. yeah, yeah, yeah, now that i can see you perfect face. yeah, yeah, that's perfect. that's perfect. it's back again.
excuse me, excuse me, professor, if you could just lower your camera a little bit to your face. yeah, that's perfect. yeah, yeah, yeah, now that i can see you perfect face. yeah, yeah, that's perfect. that's perfect. it's back again.
Slavoj Žižek
yes position yes.
yes position yes.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
okay,'s okay's going back again.
okay,'s okay's going back again.
Slavoj Žižek
again change the position like this is okay.
again change the position like this is okay.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
yeah, yeah, yeah, this is a pop. a
yeah, yeah, yeah, this is a pop. a
Slavoj Žižek
okay, okay. in slovenia already a week ago. officially, the government proclaimed the end of the... epidemics.
okay, okay. in slovenia already a week ago. officially, the government proclaimed the end of the... epidemics.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
right.
right.
Slavoj Žižek
uh... the end but it was done more for political reasons. it's true that now, in the last week, we get some days no new cases, some days one, maybe two new cases, every couple of days one person dying and so on. but... everybody knows that the virus is still circulating. that this was more a political gesture. the nationalist conservative government wants to score points, claiming we saved slovenia and so on. and the second point, if it's officially the end of pandemics, this means that they can cut short support for those who lost jobs and so on and so on. so it's also financial. game. i mean, you know, one of the problems in slovenia is that we are also relatively well developed in tourism.
uh... the end but it was done more for political reasons. it's true that now, in the last week, we get some days no new cases, some days one, maybe two new cases, every couple of days one person dying and so on. but... everybody knows that the virus is still circulating. that this was more a political gesture. the nationalist conservative government wants to score points, claiming we saved slovenia and so on. and the second point, if it's officially the end of pandemics, this means that they can cut short support for those who lost jobs and so on and so on. so it's also financial. game. i mean, you know, one of the problems in slovenia is that we are also relatively well developed in tourism.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
so.
so.
Slavoj Žižek
oh. we wonder if it will work. the government came to this idea this summer because now they are planning to cautiously open hotels, hostels and so on. this summermer. every citizens of slovenia will get 200 euros. but it's a kind of a voucher which has to be. spent in somewhere to sleep. hotel, bed and breakfast and so on. of course, what they count on is that people will stay there for a day, two, three. and maybe stay longer pay but also they will spend for food there and so on you know so
oh. we wonder if it will work. the government came to this idea this summer because now they are planning to cautiously open hotels, hostels and so on. this summermer. every citizens of slovenia will get 200 euros. but it's a kind of a voucher which has to be. spent in somewhere to sleep. hotel, bed and breakfast and so on. of course, what they count on is that people will stay there for a day, two, three. and maybe stay longer pay but also they will spend for food there and so on you know so
Xin (Chinese journalist)
right.
right.
Slavoj Žižek
tourism is the big worry because it problem most of slovenes go for a holiday to adriatic coast, to croatia.
tourism is the big worry because it problem most of slovenes go for a holiday to adriatic coast, to croatia.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
right.
right.
Slavoj Žižek
but. people will be too skeptical, i don't think. many people will go there. but maybe this will be, i wonder if it's the same in other countries. this is interesting, a little bit superstitious. a month ago, we were all paraniac, you know.
but. people will be too skeptical, i don't think. many people will go there. but maybe this will be, i wonder if it's the same in other countries. this is interesting, a little bit superstitious. a month ago, we were all paraniac, you know.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
right.
right.
Slavoj Žižek
to go and so on and then and it's the same french from israel told me from berlin. all of a sudden people... behaved as if it's not yet really over, but as if. it's psychologically in some sense over.
to go and so on and then and it's the same french from israel told me from berlin. all of a sudden people... behaved as if it's not yet really over, but as if. it's psychologically in some sense over.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
right, right.
right, right.
Slavoj Žižek
to act in a much more relaxed way. for example, although the official politics is this cafeterias are opened only with outside chairs and you should sit apart and so on. people violate this. i see when i walk by a cafeteria. a small table eight people packed around it and so on and so on i wondered what is going on, but there is another darker shutdown and i read somewhere that some people in china also are afraid of it. this total uncertainty. what about the second wave. will it take place? should how should we get ready for each of it? i noticed that many people who are now taking it easier, you know, let's go out, meet friends. psychologically it's more an act of despair. it's not
to act in a much more relaxed way. for example, although the official politics is this cafeterias are opened only with outside chairs and you should sit apart and so on. people violate this. i see when i walk by a cafeteria. a small table eight people packed around it and so on and so on i wondered what is going on, but there is another darker shutdown and i read somewhere that some people in china also are afraid of it. this total uncertainty. what about the second wave. will it take place? should how should we get ready for each of it? i noticed that many people who are now taking it easier, you know, let's go out, meet friends. psychologically it's more an act of despair. it's not
Xin (Chinese journalist)
str.
str.
Slavoj Žižek
relaxation, etc but let's enjoy it. as far as we can.
relaxation, etc but let's enjoy it. as far as we can.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
yeah let's enjoy this moment. yeah.
yeah let's enjoy this moment. yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
who knows what will happen? in the fall, you know.
who knows what will happen? in the fall, you know.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
right.
right.
Slavoj Žižek
.
.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
i also... yeah.
i also... yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
sorry, please, i talked too much.
sorry, please, i talked too much.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
yeah, i also wonder how are you personally holding up to this? how are you doing during this quarantine?
yeah, i also wonder how are you personally holding up to this? how are you doing during this quarantine?
Slavoj Žižek
feedback.
feedback.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
very big.
very big.
Slavoj Žižek
let. because i have some other health problems and so on.
let. because i have some other health problems and so on.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
great.
great.
Slavoj Žižek
and so on and you know, in this confusion i have to use all my friends to connect me. it's... difficult to get appointment with a doctor i somehow managed then er. i don't know how to put it, but... for us in europe at least. it. people say we should learn to mourn, to accept the death of friends and so on or thousands people that we don't know. but i think... what we should really mourn. is the death of an entire way of life. everybody knows that even if we succeed, bringing things somehow under control. the old times will never be. bet. that first. we will have to. everybody, china is probably getting credit in france, macron said yesterday or the day before that our whole health system should be restructured and so on. so. it's not just this will pass and we return back to normal. we are entering a new era where health threats with multiply people already fear even if the second wave in the fall is le... strong bud. but if you combine it with the usual winter wave of flu. you get the problem. second thing. and i read also that china is worried about it. in europe, it's also a problem. namely, now it's spring harvest. for vegetables, for fruit. and many european countries, slovenia also, though we are small, but england, france and so on, rely on foreign workers from african countries, even many people from spain go to it. italy and so on. and now the harvest is rotting on the fields. and i think i support the idea that somebody in british government. proposed. the. those who are temporarily unemployed. but are nonetheless getting 80% of their salary, but staying at home now. they should be mobilized to do this. i think these are extraordinary circumstances and the priorities should be not market, start car production again and so on. priority should be, and this is why to annoy my friends, i use the word communism. by communism, i don't mean dictatorship, rule of the party. i simply mean... crucial things has to be taken care of and we cannot leave this to market mechanisms. we should use markets to. to secure compet and so on and so on, but we cannot wait. for the market to spontaneously decide, for example, healthcare. isn't it true? my friends from china are telling me this, from brazil, from spain, that we need a reliable state apparatus to we. people thrash. but state apparatus cannot do it alone. we also need local communities to organize themselves. for example, in madrid i was told people in every block, a couple of streets. or... sorry but this stupid sound there're popping up. organ. sorry, i'm sorry for this.
and so on and you know, in this confusion i have to use all my friends to connect me. it's... difficult to get appointment with a doctor i somehow managed then er. i don't know how to put it, but... for us in europe at least. it. people say we should learn to mourn, to accept the death of friends and so on or thousands people that we don't know. but i think... what we should really mourn. is the death of an entire way of life. everybody knows that even if we succeed, bringing things somehow under control. the old times will never be. bet. that first. we will have to. everybody, china is probably getting credit in france, macron said yesterday or the day before that our whole health system should be restructured and so on. so. it's not just this will pass and we return back to normal. we are entering a new era where health threats with multiply people already fear even if the second wave in the fall is le... strong bud. but if you combine it with the usual winter wave of flu. you get the problem. second thing. and i read also that china is worried about it. in europe, it's also a problem. namely, now it's spring harvest. for vegetables, for fruit. and many european countries, slovenia also, though we are small, but england, france and so on, rely on foreign workers from african countries, even many people from spain go to it. italy and so on. and now the harvest is rotting on the fields. and i think i support the idea that somebody in british government. proposed. the. those who are temporarily unemployed. but are nonetheless getting 80% of their salary, but staying at home now. they should be mobilized to do this. i think these are extraordinary circumstances and the priorities should be not market, start car production again and so on. priority should be, and this is why to annoy my friends, i use the word communism. by communism, i don't mean dictatorship, rule of the party. i simply mean... crucial things has to be taken care of and we cannot leave this to market mechanisms. we should use markets to. to secure compet and so on and so on, but we cannot wait. for the market to spontaneously decide, for example, healthcare. isn't it true? my friends from china are telling me this, from brazil, from spain, that we need a reliable state apparatus to we. people thrash. but state apparatus cannot do it alone. we also need local communities to organize themselves. for example, in madrid i was told people in every block, a couple of streets. or... sorry but this stupid sound there're popping up. organ. sorry, i'm sorry for this.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
yeah.
yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
yes,.
yes,.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
are you still there? yeah.
are you still there? yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
i'm here. you see me?
i'm here. you see me?
Xin (Chinese journalist)
yeah, i can see you. it's perfect. yeah.
yeah, i can see you. it's perfect. yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
okay, then okay, let's just go on. i don't know why i don't see you. i.
okay, then okay, let's just go on. i don't know why i don't see you. i.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
but the camera it will be shaking.
but the camera it will be shaking.
Slavoj Žižek
sorry, i will try to take care of this.
sorry, i will try to take care of this.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
okay, yeah thank you so much. yeah yeah, yeah.
okay, yeah thank you so much. yeah yeah, yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
is my face okay now?
is my face okay now?
Xin (Chinese journalist)
turn it a little bit lower, lower so we can give you a full face. a little bit higher. a little bit higher. yeah, perfect. yeah yeah yeah, that's
turn it a little bit lower, lower so we can give you a full face. a little bit higher. a little bit higher. yeah, perfect. yeah yeah yeah, that's
Slavoj Žižek
okay,, so let's go on. so it's us. you know, people should organize locally, taking care of those who are overt ill but cannot take care of themselves to control locally the situation. and this is especially important because there is a third dimension of the crisis. not only health, not only food. because that's for me the big problem in the fall, to secure for the winter enough food and, of course, these absolute priorities, health, food, and then electricity, water, internet, most of the time our only connection to others should function and so on and so on. but another thing, i don't know how the situation is in different countries, but i know where i have some link among psychiatrists in my country. and they know from france, from united states, and so on. that. mental cases, mental diseases. are exploding. people commit suicide. the whole of their life is ruined. we should. and this mega problem and it it's not possible that people will all go to psychiatrists. local communities have to do this. there are many old, desperate people alone and so on and so on. somebody should, if it's possible, talk with them, take care of them. otherwise, we will have an explosive mental crisis.
okay,, so let's go on. so it's us. you know, people should organize locally, taking care of those who are overt ill but cannot take care of themselves to control locally the situation. and this is especially important because there is a third dimension of the crisis. not only health, not only food. because that's for me the big problem in the fall, to secure for the winter enough food and, of course, these absolute priorities, health, food, and then electricity, water, internet, most of the time our only connection to others should function and so on and so on. but another thing, i don't know how the situation is in different countries, but i know where i have some link among psychiatrists in my country. and they know from france, from united states, and so on. that. mental cases, mental diseases. are exploding. people commit suicide. the whole of their life is ruined. we should. and this mega problem and it it's not possible that people will all go to psychiatrists. local communities have to do this. there are many old, desperate people alone and so on and so on. somebody should, if it's possible, talk with them, take care of them. otherwise, we will have an explosive mental crisis.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
right. when i wrote to you, you told me that you felt a bit depressed and very exhausted and was that because of the lockdown or
right. when i wrote to you, you told me that you felt a bit depressed and very exhausted and was that because of the lockdown or
Slavoj Žižek
copy that effect.
copy that effect.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
you.
you.
Slavoj Žižek
you know how i know? you know, subtle sign that i am depressed. you know, when it's a glad moment for me, you will laugh. in the evening, i only check news, otherwise it would be too much for me twice a day. eat. in the morning. around nine my time. check the news, all those worldometer numbers and it looks now that you are in china and also in south korea. the true wonder are those countries around china itself, parts of china and others, like china itself, then two other parts of china, hong kong, taiwan, then south korea. and i hope china will succeed. you have now in the last days number, this small new wave close to the russian north korean border, you know, because we are all looking. two. those countries, australia, new zealand, all my friends and we look at anxiety we on sweden. will they succeed or not? with their more open policy. many people are dying. so back to my story. i check twice a day news in the morning at early in the evening. and then... those last hours before i go to sleep till midnight. somewhere are my happiest hours because i know only sleep is awaiting me and i'm glad to disappear in sleep and every morning i awaken pretty depressed. so it's a sad life, you know. i.
you know how i know? you know, subtle sign that i am depressed. you know, when it's a glad moment for me, you will laugh. in the evening, i only check news, otherwise it would be too much for me twice a day. eat. in the morning. around nine my time. check the news, all those worldometer numbers and it looks now that you are in china and also in south korea. the true wonder are those countries around china itself, parts of china and others, like china itself, then two other parts of china, hong kong, taiwan, then south korea. and i hope china will succeed. you have now in the last days number, this small new wave close to the russian north korean border, you know, because we are all looking. two. those countries, australia, new zealand, all my friends and we look at anxiety we on sweden. will they succeed or not? with their more open policy. many people are dying. so back to my story. i check twice a day news in the morning at early in the evening. and then... those last hours before i go to sleep till midnight. somewhere are my happiest hours because i know only sleep is awaiting me and i'm glad to disappear in sleep and every morning i awaken pretty depressed. so it's a sad life, you know. i.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
ryan.
ryan.
Slavoj Žižek
like one shoot. accept somehow this new mode of life, but... what is so annoying is this uncertainty. nobody, not even scientists, can give us precise predictions. i don't think we are helpless and we should do at least what we can do, we can control virus, improve our healthcare care, we can provide for social stability, take care of those weak and so on. and what worries me is how i see that in parts of the world. some places in the middle east, in the middle of africa and so on. uh dark forces, aggressive fundamentalists and so on. are... even sharpening there. military operations because they think debt. this is a situation where everybody is focused on. on covid, so... nobody will notice. what they are doing. this is, i think.
like one shoot. accept somehow this new mode of life, but... what is so annoying is this uncertainty. nobody, not even scientists, can give us precise predictions. i don't think we are helpless and we should do at least what we can do, we can control virus, improve our healthcare care, we can provide for social stability, take care of those weak and so on. and what worries me is how i see that in parts of the world. some places in the middle east, in the middle of africa and so on. uh dark forces, aggressive fundamentalists and so on. are... even sharpening there. military operations because they think debt. this is a situation where everybody is focused on. on covid, so... nobody will notice. what they are doing. this is, i think.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
right.
right.
Slavoj Žižek
magic. aspect. i think that we are not in a purely medical situation. we are now in an eminently political moment. why? because again, we will have to restructure, change how our society. functions. economically psychologically and so on and. there is hope that maybe even a better society will arise out of it.
magic. aspect. i think that we are not in a purely medical situation. we are now in an eminently political moment. why? because again, we will have to restructure, change how our society. functions. economically psychologically and so on and. there is hope that maybe even a better society will arise out of it.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
yeah, in terms of that, you mentioned in a few articles and also including your new book that you believe right now it's not just a crisis, it's also a moment where we can turn it into an opportunity to restructure the whole society and you call it the coronavirus is a kill bill movement that can blow to capitalism and could lead to reinvention of a economy. and how
yeah, in terms of that, you mentioned in a few articles and also including your new book that you believe right now it's not just a crisis, it's also a moment where we can turn it into an opportunity to restructure the whole society and you call it the coronavirus is a kill bill movement that can blow to capitalism and could lead to reinvention of a economy. and how
Slavoj Žižek
what do you?
what do you?
Xin (Chinese journalist)
don't you that
don't you that
Slavoj Žižek
to.
to.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
conclusion. yeah.
conclusion. yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
i will. of course. communism is not very, any kind of communism is not very probable. and by communism i mean something very modest. i mean what i already mentioned to you. i just mean a modest society where beyond market rules. society somehow organizes that nobody is starving, that everybody can lead a modest but decent life. and on the other hand, people should also be ready to risk some of their freedoms. in the sense only in the sense of, for example, i don't know, if there is an urgency. harvesting and so on. people should allow themselves even to volunteer or to be mobilized and so on and so on. but of course there are other options which unfortunately in some countries will probably prevail. i've written about this. very brutal, i call it, although it's not only him, donald trump or bolsonaro version, which is basically let's go back to work. let's start moving again, even if, as trump admitted, this means thousands more deaths. this clearly gives preference to the functioning system the way it is. i think this is a dangerous game. second game is, i've written about it, is the big companies, mega companies, google, microsoft, and so on. together with state. they won't. for. it's never for all people, but for many people, those who can afford it. to establish perfect bubbles. naomi klein called this the screen new deal. you would be able to stay at home. drones will bring you food, you will be even doctors's exams will be done through internet and so on and so on. now, the problem is that not only that. social control will be total over individuals. the problem is that everybody cannot live like that. somebody have to package the food. do the health and so on and so on. so i see in this a new class society, very brutal one. those who can afford to be isolated, living in relative safety, and those who are out, not only this. new working class caretakers, not so much classical proletarians but those who prepare food. those who take care of health and so on, not only they will continue to be exposed to risks, but don't even. think about what this means in the third world where in india and so on, only the very privileged can really self-isolate. so you see, this version of some people call it high-tech corona capitalism where the privileged live under protected bubbles. this is also one very negative tendency. and the united states is now oscillating between these two. trump wants opening. whatever the costs and the... and people like andrew cuomo and so on, eric schmidt want this technological technologically controlled self-isolation. i think none of this. works. by communism, what do i mean? what did i mean? maybe i should explain this to our readers because i think i was right with the metaphor. kill bill, i referred to the scene in kill bill, the movie second part. where? the bad guy is dealt a five fingers blow. the effect of this blow is that as long as you shit. calumly. you go on, you can talk, you breathe. but the moment you get up and start moving, you drop dead. isn't this our predicament now? sitting down means lockdown. as long as we can go on with lockdown, it's okay. the true test of our society is is starting to move again. and here is the problem. here. the only long-term solution that i see is some kind of communism. by communism, i simply mean that. the state. the people whoever, through some social arrangement. violate. the market principles. even. even western conservative politicians are doing this. when trump, although he gave much more money to saving companies, but when every family got, or i don't know how, $2,000, this was not market exchange. they got this. it was kind of a universal basic income. simply. people had to be. save independently of immediate economic concerns. so we will have to reorganize our economy works. the focus will no longer be on our expanded consumption, new cars, fashion, and so on and so on. where there is time and ability for that, it's okay. but. by communism, i mean... the way i quoted marx here, who said, for him, the communist rule was to everybody according to his needs. from everybody according to his abilities. that's what we need now. a system which will guarantee a certain minimum even if it's relatively poor life of decent life. enter. on the other hand, d. volunteering, readiness of the people to help with harvesting, with other services and so on and so on.
i will. of course. communism is not very, any kind of communism is not very probable. and by communism i mean something very modest. i mean what i already mentioned to you. i just mean a modest society where beyond market rules. society somehow organizes that nobody is starving, that everybody can lead a modest but decent life. and on the other hand, people should also be ready to risk some of their freedoms. in the sense only in the sense of, for example, i don't know, if there is an urgency. harvesting and so on. people should allow themselves even to volunteer or to be mobilized and so on and so on. but of course there are other options which unfortunately in some countries will probably prevail. i've written about this. very brutal, i call it, although it's not only him, donald trump or bolsonaro version, which is basically let's go back to work. let's start moving again, even if, as trump admitted, this means thousands more deaths. this clearly gives preference to the functioning system the way it is. i think this is a dangerous game. second game is, i've written about it, is the big companies, mega companies, google, microsoft, and so on. together with state. they won't. for. it's never for all people, but for many people, those who can afford it. to establish perfect bubbles. naomi klein called this the screen new deal. you would be able to stay at home. drones will bring you food, you will be even doctors's exams will be done through internet and so on and so on. now, the problem is that not only that. social control will be total over individuals. the problem is that everybody cannot live like that. somebody have to package the food. do the health and so on and so on. so i see in this a new class society, very brutal one. those who can afford to be isolated, living in relative safety, and those who are out, not only this. new working class caretakers, not so much classical proletarians but those who prepare food. those who take care of health and so on, not only they will continue to be exposed to risks, but don't even. think about what this means in the third world where in india and so on, only the very privileged can really self-isolate. so you see, this version of some people call it high-tech corona capitalism where the privileged live under protected bubbles. this is also one very negative tendency. and the united states is now oscillating between these two. trump wants opening. whatever the costs and the... and people like andrew cuomo and so on, eric schmidt want this technological technologically controlled self-isolation. i think none of this. works. by communism, what do i mean? what did i mean? maybe i should explain this to our readers because i think i was right with the metaphor. kill bill, i referred to the scene in kill bill, the movie second part. where? the bad guy is dealt a five fingers blow. the effect of this blow is that as long as you shit. calumly. you go on, you can talk, you breathe. but the moment you get up and start moving, you drop dead. isn't this our predicament now? sitting down means lockdown. as long as we can go on with lockdown, it's okay. the true test of our society is is starting to move again. and here is the problem. here. the only long-term solution that i see is some kind of communism. by communism, i simply mean that. the state. the people whoever, through some social arrangement. violate. the market principles. even. even western conservative politicians are doing this. when trump, although he gave much more money to saving companies, but when every family got, or i don't know how, $2,000, this was not market exchange. they got this. it was kind of a universal basic income. simply. people had to be. save independently of immediate economic concerns. so we will have to reorganize our economy works. the focus will no longer be on our expanded consumption, new cars, fashion, and so on and so on. where there is time and ability for that, it's okay. but. by communism, i mean... the way i quoted marx here, who said, for him, the communist rule was to everybody according to his needs. from everybody according to his abilities. that's what we need now. a system which will guarantee a certain minimum even if it's relatively poor life of decent life. enter. on the other hand, d. volunteering, readiness of the people to help with harvesting, with other services and so on and so on.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
just a follow-up question here. then in your definition of communism, what is the difference between this type of communism and the current social democratic politics?
just a follow-up question here. then in your definition of communism, what is the difference between this type of communism and the current social democratic politics?
Slavoj Žižek
at current social democratic politics, as long as it works, i like it. but still... to put it very simply, social democratic politics still. counts on the social regulation of the market. you know. state intervenes actively and so on and so on. i think it's a little bit more here. and i will give you a surprising, more active role of state, not just regulating and so on. look, remember even trump, although he didn't like it, trump had to evoke some regulation from early 50s, the cold war, where... the president has the right. simply to order companies to produce what the people need at a certain point. and he used this, right? i think to order. . i don't know. i think general motors to start producing ventilators, respirators, and so on and so on. you see, this is a little bit more than social democracy.
at current social democratic politics, as long as it works, i like it. but still... to put it very simply, social democratic politics still. counts on the social regulation of the market. you know. state intervenes actively and so on and so on. i think it's a little bit more here. and i will give you a surprising, more active role of state, not just regulating and so on. look, remember even trump, although he didn't like it, trump had to evoke some regulation from early 50s, the cold war, where... the president has the right. simply to order companies to produce what the people need at a certain point. and he used this, right? i think to order. . i don't know. i think general motors to start producing ventilators, respirators, and so on and so on. you see, this is a little bit more than social democracy.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
mm-hmm. you mentioned about the universal basic income, because we know that spanish government is now trying to make it. as a policy to fight against the virus. and are you in that? do you think that's going to be a solution?
mm-hmm. you mentioned about the universal basic income, because we know that spanish government is now trying to make it. as a policy to fight against the virus. and are you in that? do you think that's going to be a solution?
Slavoj Žižek
oh. yes, but not in the sense of affluence. it simply already is becoming a solution. what governments are doing, even in england where conservatives are in power, even if they don't call it universal basic incomes, they get it. everybody. nobody should starve. everybody should be guaranteed a certain minimum, even if it's modest of survival. and there you can call it basic income or not and so on and so on. and again, this is... not. this is not market. logical. this is a logic. of certain direct social intervention which bypasses market logic. also, the exploding health service that we will need, preparing for the next wave, preparing for other. . calamities. for example, do you know that now they have had in eastern india and bangladesh this new hurricane, tsunami, whatever, you know.
oh. yes, but not in the sense of affluence. it simply already is becoming a solution. what governments are doing, even in england where conservatives are in power, even if they don't call it universal basic incomes, they get it. everybody. nobody should starve. everybody should be guaranteed a certain minimum, even if it's modest of survival. and there you can call it basic income or not and so on and so on. and again, this is... not. this is not market. logical. this is a logic. of certain direct social intervention which bypasses market logic. also, the exploding health service that we will need, preparing for the next wave, preparing for other. . calamities. for example, do you know that now they have had in eastern india and bangladesh this new hurricane, tsunami, whatever, you know.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
mm-hmm
mm-hmm
Slavoj Žižek
great calamity. but you know that some meteorologists that i know predicted it as a paradoxical consequence of the fact that our air is now less polluted. that cleaner air creates conditions as a byproduct nobody thought about it. y. byproduct for stronger storms, tornadoes, and so on and so on. so we have to be ready.
great calamity. but you know that some meteorologists that i know predicted it as a paradoxical consequence of the fact that our air is now less polluted. that cleaner air creates conditions as a byproduct nobody thought about it. y. byproduct for stronger storms, tornadoes, and so on and so on. so we have to be ready.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
excuse me, professor, could you make the camera a little bit down? because your face is only half right.
excuse me, professor, could you make the camera a little bit down? because your face is only half right.
Slavoj Žižek
that.
that.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
yeah,, this is good. uh oh, it's too much. um yeah perfect. this is a perfect. yeah yeah yeah let's try to so.
yeah,, this is good. uh oh, it's too much. um yeah perfect. this is a perfect. yeah yeah yeah let's try to so.
Slavoj Žižek
i repeat it, i don't care. how organizationally this communism will function. it can be conservatives are in power in some country. the important thing is that. guaranteeing the necessities. nobody starves. healthcare totally reorganized. healthcare also internationally coordinated and so on. and again, the basics, electricity, water. garbage disposal, internet smoothly functioning and so on. without all this, our society falls apart and we can do it. so my point is just let's forget about. fashion, holidays and so on and so on. we with pleasure will take care of that when it will be possible. but now it's an emergency state. we have to focus on the essentials.
i repeat it, i don't care. how organizationally this communism will function. it can be conservatives are in power in some country. the important thing is that. guaranteeing the necessities. nobody starves. healthcare totally reorganized. healthcare also internationally coordinated and so on. and again, the basics, electricity, water. garbage disposal, internet smoothly functioning and so on. without all this, our society falls apart and we can do it. so my point is just let's forget about. fashion, holidays and so on and so on. we with pleasure will take care of that when it will be possible. but now it's an emergency state. we have to focus on the essentials.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
it
it
Slavoj Žižek
it's not a bright communism. it's almost more like what lenin and others called a wartime communism. you know.
it's not a bright communism. it's almost more like what lenin and others called a wartime communism. you know.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
okay.
okay.
Slavoj Žižek
is an emergency society has to take care of. necessities.
is an emergency society has to take care of. necessities.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
right, so in terms of what government can do in this case, we know that like recently because the european government or an american government start having this kind of policy that people shouldn't go out and people shouldn't do this, do that. so then some philosophers in europe were worried that this might be just an excuse for the authority to limit people's freedom.
right, so in terms of what government can do in this case, we know that like recently because the european government or an american government start having this kind of policy that people shouldn't go out and people shouldn't do this, do that. so then some philosophers in europe were worried that this might be just an excuse for the authority to limit people's freedom.
Slavoj Žižek
it's too simple, this. we have these debates now.
it's too simple, this. we have these debates now.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
right.
right.
Slavoj Žižek
they want to do this, how do you call it? that they track where you are on your phone. this phone tracking so that then they can warn you if you're approaching a person who is infected and so on and so on now and some people say oh my god some government agency will control our movement. no? i'm saying this is ridiculous because listen. i don't know for other countries, but i know from the cambridge analytica scandal and from my friends in israel that in israel and in united states, government agencies in connection with google, facebook and so on already totally control all our digital communication. so i would be much more worried about that here in the case of tracking where you move. this control is at least relatively insignificant, i don't care if people know. where i'm walking and it should in some sense help you. those who are afraid, we should tell them, sorry, you are too late. in united states, it was clear that all the data of phone calls you are making, digital, all the internet exchanges and so on, are, if they want it, available to state apparatuses. they are too late. this is a relatively minor point. i think i am not afraid of this type of control.
they want to do this, how do you call it? that they track where you are on your phone. this phone tracking so that then they can warn you if you're approaching a person who is infected and so on and so on now and some people say oh my god some government agency will control our movement. no? i'm saying this is ridiculous because listen. i don't know for other countries, but i know from the cambridge analytica scandal and from my friends in israel that in israel and in united states, government agencies in connection with google, facebook and so on already totally control all our digital communication. so i would be much more worried about that here in the case of tracking where you move. this control is at least relatively insignificant, i don't care if people know. where i'm walking and it should in some sense help you. those who are afraid, we should tell them, sorry, you are too late. in united states, it was clear that all the data of phone calls you are making, digital, all the internet exchanges and so on, are, if they want it, available to state apparatuses. they are too late. this is a relatively minor point. i think i am not afraid of this type of control.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
right, but we know there was this philosopher's discussion just a few weeks ago in terms of giorgio agamben's opinion of the government shouldn't limit people's freedom of just going out and they should let people to do what they are doing. and i think that that has brought a very big challenge to the european society that people start thinking. okay the freedom issue and the privacy issue and in an emergence like this it won't matter anymore like what is your take on that?
right, but we know there was this philosopher's discussion just a few weeks ago in terms of giorgio agamben's opinion of the government shouldn't limit people's freedom of just going out and they should let people to do what they are doing. and i think that that has brought a very big challenge to the european society that people start thinking. okay the freedom issue and the privacy issue and in an emergence like this it won't matter anymore like what is your take on that?
Slavoj Žižek
i i am not, you know. why i'm not so much afraid of this. first. everybody knows. that at least in europe, in italy, especially and spain, when they were more in a panic. a couple of weeks ago. it's not that we'll now be confronting an all-powerful government which will know everything about us. no, governments are basically desperate. government. people expect governments, people at least in europe, most of us, we gladly comply with these lockdowns and so on. but we want them to work. and governments are pretty desperate because they cannot guarantee that this really works. it's a panic. so, and also, look, let's be serious. even the governments, because it's good for the economy and so on, nobody wants these lockdowns going on. and it's so everybody wants social life to begin. because it's a catastrophe for economy. lockdowns are pure catastroph. check on. you notice how... it. left is a small minority in those who protest lockdowns. mostly it's the populist right in germany, alternative für deutschland, alternative. in united states, local trump right-wing partisans and so on. they are against lockdowns. and i think is here much brighter, the left. sees that it's in our interest that now in united kingdom we have this
i i am not, you know. why i'm not so much afraid of this. first. everybody knows. that at least in europe, in italy, especially and spain, when they were more in a panic. a couple of weeks ago. it's not that we'll now be confronting an all-powerful government which will know everything about us. no, governments are basically desperate. government. people expect governments, people at least in europe, most of us, we gladly comply with these lockdowns and so on. but we want them to work. and governments are pretty desperate because they cannot guarantee that this really works. it's a panic. so, and also, look, let's be serious. even the governments, because it's good for the economy and so on, nobody wants these lockdowns going on. and it's so everybody wants social life to begin. because it's a catastrophe for economy. lockdowns are pure catastroph. check on. you notice how... it. left is a small minority in those who protest lockdowns. mostly it's the populist right in germany, alternative für deutschland, alternative. in united states, local trump right-wing partisans and so on. they are against lockdowns. and i think is here much brighter, the left. sees that it's in our interest that now in united kingdom we have this
Xin (Chinese journalist)
the.
the.
Slavoj Žižek
situation if you follow it that the government wants to stop lockdown faster, open schools, restaurants and so on, and many local communities protest. they don't want. the uh... freedom of movement and so on, open restaurants to be restored too quickly. i think that with all the uncertainties, nonetheless, china has proven it. other places have proven it. lockdowns at least up to a point they work. the point is how to do it, it should be done in a disciplined way, but with full collaboration of the people.
situation if you follow it that the government wants to stop lockdown faster, open schools, restaurants and so on, and many local communities protest. they don't want. the uh... freedom of movement and so on, open restaurants to be restored too quickly. i think that with all the uncertainties, nonetheless, china has proven it. other places have proven it. lockdowns at least up to a point they work. the point is how to do it, it should be done in a disciplined way, but with full collaboration of the people.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
how do you think in general that how would you comment on the european way of handling this crisis? do you think that they are doing a good job?
how do you think in general that how would you comment on the european way of handling this crisis? do you think that they are doing a good job?
Slavoj Žižek
all in all, you know, it was a big shock for all of us, for them also. they are not doing so badly, okay, clearly at the beginning, italy, but then england made some big mistakes. but what more... shocks me is. that i think that european solidarity didn't work. although we were all talking about helping each other, it was basically everybody is on his, her own legs. you know.
all in all, you know, it was a big shock for all of us, for them also. they are not doing so badly, okay, clearly at the beginning, italy, but then england made some big mistakes. but what more... shocks me is. that i think that european solidarity didn't work. although we were all talking about helping each other, it was basically everybody is on his, her own legs. you know.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
right, right.
right, right.
Slavoj Žižek
italians are right to complain here. so what makes me very sad is that instead of making coronavirus epidemics. the be proof the demonstration of european solidarity. everybody is silently becoming aware that maybe this was the death blow to european. unity, which is very sad, i think.
italians are right to complain here. so what makes me very sad is that instead of making coronavirus epidemics. the be proof the demonstration of european solidarity. everybody is silently becoming aware that maybe this was the death blow to european. unity, which is very sad, i think.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
right. so as a chinese living europe, i started warning my friends and colleagues in europe since february that the virus might come, but nobody was listening to me and people thought i was kind of a paranoid. but later on when the virus finally had an outbreak here, then everybody was like, oh, you were right, but we didn't listen. and so i wonder
right. so as a chinese living europe, i started warning my friends and colleagues in europe since february that the virus might come, but nobody was listening to me and people thought i was kind of a paranoid. but later on when the virus finally had an outbreak here, then everybody was like, oh, you were right, but we didn't listen. and so i wonder
Slavoj Žižek
m, did you get any racism or are your friends more open?
m, did you get any racism or are your friends more open?
Xin (Chinese journalist)
my friends thought people call them coronavirus on the street and when i approach people for interview, they were a bit more reluctant because i'm a chinese journalist and they i think now there is more hostile feeling against china in terms of the international image after this outbreak. and it's not just an individual case. many people have this as a experience that people don't go to chinese restaurants anymore. but i wonder what happened in the european government or in the american government that the thing already happened in january in china, but they didn't really take the time to prepare. they start preparing.
my friends thought people call them coronavirus on the street and when i approach people for interview, they were a bit more reluctant because i'm a chinese journalist and they i think now there is more hostile feeling against china in terms of the international image after this outbreak. and it's not just an individual case. many people have this as a experience that people don't go to chinese restaurants anymore. but i wonder what happened in the european government or in the american government that the thing already happened in january in china, but they didn't really take the time to prepare. they start preparing.
Slavoj Žižek
spontaneous racism. we were bombarded by those messages, dirty chinese in wuhan, you know, old we mean cooking bat or pangolin soups and so on, all that. it was incredibly. this explosion of spontaneous racism that it couldn't it couldn't move here. we didn't believe it. i remember i even wanted to go to hong kong and to singapore. i already had the tickets reserved. i wanted to go there mid-february. and of course, it was cancelled, singapore airlines cancelled the flight and so on and so on. so it was... we thought it will be just another epidemic limited to that area.
spontaneous racism. we were bombarded by those messages, dirty chinese in wuhan, you know, old we mean cooking bat or pangolin soups and so on, all that. it was incredibly. this explosion of spontaneous racism that it couldn't it couldn't move here. we didn't believe it. i remember i even wanted to go to hong kong and to singapore. i already had the tickets reserved. i wanted to go there mid-february. and of course, it was cancelled, singapore airlines cancelled the flight and so on and so on. so it was... we thought it will be just another epidemic limited to that area.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
right.
right.
Slavoj Žižek
it's like sucks. now now maybe even we don't know what will happen. but the way it looks now, maybe even the united states will not be the greatest. what worries me is not so much africa as latin america.
it's like sucks. now now maybe even we don't know what will happen. but the way it looks now, maybe even the united states will not be the greatest. what worries me is not so much africa as latin america.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
right, right.
right, right.
Slavoj Žižek
what will happen? i fear there again, not just... tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of dead, but lack of food, social disorders, chaos, gang rule and so on. it can really develop. develop there is a change into some kind of a post-apocalyptic society. so we should. we need ideals now, ideals in the sense of even if we don't agree with them politically, we need to look at places like even cuba. did you notice cuba keeps the number pretty low and i read some western analyses which claim they are not cheating like some other countries. you know.
what will happen? i fear there again, not just... tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of dead, but lack of food, social disorders, chaos, gang rule and so on. it can really develop. develop there is a change into some kind of a post-apocalyptic society. so we should. we need ideals now, ideals in the sense of even if we don't agree with them politically, we need to look at places like even cuba. did you notice cuba keeps the number pretty low and i read some western analyses which claim they are not cheating like some other countries. you know.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
yes.
yes.
Slavoj Žižek
y. we are not totally helpless. we just should do. do do... collaborate. no, we need isolation and so on, no free travel between the countries. but my god, we have digital media. it's so important that we get some kind of a not only universal healthcare, but global healthcare in the sense of coordinating reaction, tracking cases and so on and so on. it's crucial. without that, i really think there is a possibility that a new barbarism will emerge. there are already elements of it in the united states. this.
y. we are not totally helpless. we just should do. do do... collaborate. no, we need isolation and so on, no free travel between the countries. but my god, we have digital media. it's so important that we get some kind of a not only universal healthcare, but global healthcare in the sense of coordinating reaction, tracking cases and so on and so on. it's crucial. without that, i really think there is a possibility that a new barbarism will emerge. there are already elements of it in the united states. this.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
yeah.
yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
every, everybody says how at the beginning of the crisis masks were sold out. you couldn't get masks and so on. but you know what sold out even faster in the united states? guns, arms. yeah yeah. i wonder what did people expect? that they had this dream, they have seen too many stupid hollywood movies that. they will be in a safe house alone and ill people like vampires, like zombies will attack them. they will have to defend themselves. it's for me an absolute madness to arm yourself. in.
every, everybody says how at the beginning of the crisis masks were sold out. you couldn't get masks and so on. but you know what sold out even faster in the united states? guns, arms. yeah yeah. i wonder what did people expect? that they had this dream, they have seen too many stupid hollywood movies that. they will be in a safe house alone and ill people like vampires, like zombies will attack them. they will have to defend themselves. it's for me an absolute madness to arm yourself. in.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
right.
right.
Slavoj Žižek
they are reliving, they are projecting their hollywood movies scenarios into this reality. i wonder what did you ask yourself? it's a trivial question, but. what will happen with our entire fiction industry, movies and so on? how
they are reliving, they are projecting their hollywood movies scenarios into this reality. i wonder what did you ask yourself? it's a trivial question, but. what will happen with our entire fiction industry, movies and so on? how
Xin (Chinese journalist)
baby baby.
baby baby.
Slavoj Žižek
be shooting movies. maybe they will invent something in china because i think when we met, maybe i already mentioned it to you, wasn't the last chinese big science fiction film, movie, the wandering earth?
be shooting movies. maybe they will invent something in china because i think when we met, maybe i already mentioned it to you, wasn't the last chinese big science fiction film, movie, the wandering earth?
Xin (Chinese journalist)
right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
also in a totally isolate the whole earth moving away from the sun and so on. i wonder. if life will not return to normal, if some social distancing will remain, how will we look on our past life? will it become a lost ideal? will we be dreaming about it? you know, this is again the saddest personal moment for me. the idea. that life we are not only we were used to. but all the elements are there, stores, cafeterias, public spaces, chairs that. it's like it's there but out of touch. we never know how we will be able to use it again. that's why people use every moment, try to go out into parks and so on and so on.
also in a totally isolate the whole earth moving away from the sun and so on. i wonder. if life will not return to normal, if some social distancing will remain, how will we look on our past life? will it become a lost ideal? will we be dreaming about it? you know, this is again the saddest personal moment for me. the idea. that life we are not only we were used to. but all the elements are there, stores, cafeterias, public spaces, chairs that. it's like it's there but out of touch. we never know how we will be able to use it again. that's why people use every moment, try to go out into parks and so on and so on.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
right, did you feel that kind of feeling when slovenia was in lockdown? did you go out to see the empty stores during the lockdown period?
right, did you feel that kind of feeling when slovenia was in lockdown? did you go out to see the empty stores during the lockdown period?
Slavoj Žižek
e. i was pretty much in a panic. i didn't go around a lot for a very simple reason, because i am a high risk. kaiai risk. category. i'm 71. i have diabetes, diabetes 1. with insulin. i have high pressure. i have some heart palpitations, so you know, i really have to take care of myself.
e. i was pretty much in a panic. i didn't go around a lot for a very simple reason, because i am a high risk. kaiai risk. category. i'm 71. i have diabetes, diabetes 1. with insulin. i have high pressure. i have some heart palpitations, so you know, i really have to take care of myself.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
right, right, yeah, totally understand. yes, here comes a question from a chinese audience, because in your early article, i think it was one of the first articles you wrote about the coronavirus, you said you would secretly love to be in wuhan right now, experiencing a real-life post-apocalyptic movie set. and that raised a little bit of a controversy. see that people
right, right, yeah, totally understand. yes, here comes a question from a chinese audience, because in your early article, i think it was one of the first articles you wrote about the coronavirus, you said you would secretly love to be in wuhan right now, experiencing a real-life post-apocalyptic movie set. and that raised a little bit of a controversy. see that people
Slavoj Žižek
wait a minute. i know. i was honest there. i said. i said, i wrote there that of course there is nothing sublime for the people who are there. for those who are there, it's despair. fear, anxiety, and so on. you know.
wait a minute. i know. i was honest there. i said. i said, i wrote there that of course there is nothing sublime for the people who are there. for those who are there, it's despair. fear, anxiety, and so on. you know.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
yeah, yeah, i. yeah yeah yeah i read that in the later part of the article as well.
yeah, yeah, i. yeah yeah yeah i read that in the later part of the article as well.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, yeah, yeah, so i'm not crazy. i'm not saying enjoy it aesthetically and so on and so on.
yeah, yeah, yeah, so i'm not crazy. i'm not saying enjoy it aesthetically and so on and so on.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
but nonetheless,
but nonetheless,
Slavoj Žižek
you know... there is some almost metaphysical dimension in it. like it reminded me. for one of those documentary movies that i made, pervert's guide to ideology, i think. oui that. close to la in the desert, there is this graveyard of abandoned planes, big. planes, boeings and so on. hundreds of planes just dress. park der... uselessly and when you see all this machinery there, totally useless maybe you ask some questions, like, don't we have too much of this machinery? does all this have any meaning and so on and so on? isn't this all meaningless? and this is what fascinates me. in empty streets, closed stores, and so on and so on. how? all these things which are supposed to function are all of a sudden there. without san. which. should give us a chance to ask ourselves, do we really need all of that? for example, do we really need all those mega ships with 5,000 passengers stacked into cabins and so on and so on.
you know... there is some almost metaphysical dimension in it. like it reminded me. for one of those documentary movies that i made, pervert's guide to ideology, i think. oui that. close to la in the desert, there is this graveyard of abandoned planes, big. planes, boeings and so on. hundreds of planes just dress. park der... uselessly and when you see all this machinery there, totally useless maybe you ask some questions, like, don't we have too much of this machinery? does all this have any meaning and so on and so on? isn't this all meaningless? and this is what fascinates me. in empty streets, closed stores, and so on and so on. how? all these things which are supposed to function are all of a sudden there. without san. which. should give us a chance to ask ourselves, do we really need all of that? for example, do we really need all those mega ships with 5,000 passengers stacked into cabins and so on and so on.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
be later two
be later two
Slavoj Žižek
renounceounce some things and maybe our lives will be spiritually even deeper. and another thing that i discovered now. although i was always skeptical about confucianism. no, but insofar as confucianism means also. politeness, respect for others, all this. everyday manners aspect of confucianism, no? we will terribly need this now. i agree with those chinese who claim this is the moment of. confucianism, the moment of simple respect, respecting the rules, being polite and so on. this is what we need now.
renounceounce some things and maybe our lives will be spiritually even deeper. and another thing that i discovered now. although i was always skeptical about confucianism. no, but insofar as confucianism means also. politeness, respect for others, all this. everyday manners aspect of confucianism, no? we will terribly need this now. i agree with those chinese who claim this is the moment of. confucianism, the moment of simple respect, respecting the rules, being polite and so on. this is what we need now.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
what do you think the coronavirus will bring to our daily life?
what do you think the coronavirus will bring to our daily life?
Slavoj Žižek
i don't know, and that's what's so frustrating. you know, because as i wrote, all our capacities could desire. for example, not just personal desires, but also, for example, professionally, i want to publish books, to give talks. but... this it's not the same to give a live talk or to do it through zoom and so on. all this is disappeared, all this will be changed. and it's very difficult to organize your life. like, what should i do? what will i be able to do? many of my professor friends in the united states are telling them that many students of humanities, philosophy simply think, does it still have any meaning? to do. what i'm doing. who needs now these abstract philosophical reflections and so on and so on? no, it's a big problem. what kind of stories will be telling ourselves? how will we reorganize our life? maybe there will be collective paranoias, collective madnesses and so on. nobody knows. and that's again what's so frustrating.
i don't know, and that's what's so frustrating. you know, because as i wrote, all our capacities could desire. for example, not just personal desires, but also, for example, professionally, i want to publish books, to give talks. but... this it's not the same to give a live talk or to do it through zoom and so on. all this is disappeared, all this will be changed. and it's very difficult to organize your life. like, what should i do? what will i be able to do? many of my professor friends in the united states are telling them that many students of humanities, philosophy simply think, does it still have any meaning? to do. what i'm doing. who needs now these abstract philosophical reflections and so on and so on? no, it's a big problem. what kind of stories will be telling ourselves? how will we reorganize our life? maybe there will be collective paranoias, collective madnesses and so on. nobody knows. and that's again what's so frustrating.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
one question is that we noticed that you know towards the personal relationship, we heard in the lockdown, there are a lot of for instance, like domestic violence that
one question is that we noticed that you know towards the personal relationship, we heard in the lockdown, there are a lot of for instance, like domestic violence that
Slavoj Žižek
yeah
yeah
Xin (Chinese journalist)
get
get
Slavoj Žižek
we other.
we other.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
right and but some other people they decide to either okay we we were not sure we're gonna get married but now because we are quar together so we want to get married or we were not sure we're gonna have children but now since we go through this we want to have children so what do you think this coronavirus could possibly bring to people's personal relationship to how people are dealing with each other? how is that
right and but some other people they decide to either okay we we were not sure we're gonna get married but now because we are quar together so we want to get married or we were not sure we're gonna have children but now since we go through this we want to have children so what do you think this coronavirus could possibly bring to people's personal relationship to how people are dealing with each other? how is that
Slavoj Žižek
i'm here. somewhere in between, there are, as in every critical situation, options that good things will come out of it, people with deeper commitment, relationships and so on, also at the everyday level. more polite relations. for example, even here in ljubljana, i meet people who don't know me we not we say a word from a distance much more politely or it can be new violence. there is no one rule. it's up to us. it's an open situation.
i'm here. somewhere in between, there are, as in every critical situation, options that good things will come out of it, people with deeper commitment, relationships and so on, also at the everyday level. more polite relations. for example, even here in ljubljana, i meet people who don't know me we not we say a word from a distance much more politely or it can be new violence. there is no one rule. it's up to us. it's an open situation.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
yeah, and another question is about the philosopher's responsibility. actually, we spoke that last year. so when i asked you what do you think is the responsibility of philosopher? and you said it's not to solve a question, it's not to solve a problem, it is to raise the question and to make people think. and so i wonder, in this coronavirus outbreak, there are so many new questions that are coming out like the globalization or immigration problem, populism.
yeah, and another question is about the philosopher's responsibility. actually, we spoke that last year. so when i asked you what do you think is the responsibility of philosopher? and you said it's not to solve a question, it's not to solve a problem, it is to raise the question and to make people think. and so i wonder, in this coronavirus outbreak, there are so many new questions that are coming out like the globalization or immigration problem, populism.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah.
yeah.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
power all these questions and how many of them do you think is new questions and how many of them are
power all these questions and how many of them do you think is new questions and how many of them are
Slavoj Žižek
no the surprise is that although everything changed, but basically just the old problems returned, immigration, globalization in a much stronger form. and i think, again, what i said even more now. philosophy cannot provide here clear answers, but it can. compel us to. fully gcht. the dimension of the crisis. like i said, that it's not just a health crisis. it's the whole organization of our society, our mental stability which is at stake. philosophy should make us aware of how radical the crisis is. we will be forced to create a new society, which can be better or worse, but it will definitely have to be a new society.
no the surprise is that although everything changed, but basically just the old problems returned, immigration, globalization in a much stronger form. and i think, again, what i said even more now. philosophy cannot provide here clear answers, but it can. compel us to. fully gcht. the dimension of the crisis. like i said, that it's not just a health crisis. it's the whole organization of our society, our mental stability which is at stake. philosophy should make us aware of how radical the crisis is. we will be forced to create a new society, which can be better or worse, but it will definitely have to be a new society.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
right, right. okay.
right, right. okay.
Slavoj Žižek
sorry to stop now sorry.
sorry to stop now sorry.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
no problem. yeah, i really appreciate it that you spend the time and yeah thank you so much and i hope you take care could be your
no problem. yeah, i really appreciate it that you spend the time and yeah thank you so much and i hope you take care could be your
Slavoj Žižek
i. also be careful in amsterdam, yes.
i. also be careful in amsterdam, yes.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
yeah, thank you so much. yeah, thank you.
yeah, thank you so much. yeah, thank you.
Slavoj Žižek
thank you. bye-bye. bye-bye.
thank you. bye-bye. bye-bye.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
bye bye!
bye bye!
Slavoj Žižek
sorry, i't. . okay.
sorry, i't. . okay.
Xin (Chinese journalist)
take your time.
take your time.