Zizek meets India (Full Video)
Lecture · Aurora ·
2009 · 1:52:39 · 17,223 words
with Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor, Ashwin Laksumunage, Bezwada Wilson
ideologycapitalismliberalism-political-correctnessgeopolitics-warrevolution-violenceeconomicssubjectivityethicsdemocracycinema-art-cultureotherphilosophy-general
In this Delhi discussion, Slavoj Žižek engages the Safai Karmachari Andolan movement (Bezwada Wilson and Ashwin Laksumunage) against manual scavenging and the caste system, treating their struggle as a living proof that ideology survives in daily practice even where it is officially denied. He reframes the dalit abolition movement as a symptom-point whose particular demand is universal in its consequences, and argues, through anecdotes about Yugoslav military oaths, Slovenian communist elections, Israeli atheists, and capitalist crisis, that law must cheat on itself to function, that authority commands what we must freely choose, and that the most effective subversion is to force power to follow its own laws.
every located moment in this recording, click one to read it
The ideas in it 10
in the order they first come up; click a row for what he does with the idea here
as “terror by bureaucracy”
Oppression enacted not through overt state terror but through dense daily regulations (e.g. Palestinian well-digging limits).
as “de facto slave”
Modern migrant labour (Dubai skyscrapers, Saudi stowaways) where formally free workers are trapped by confiscated passports and debt.
His name for identity politics that aestheticizes misery, making poetry out of untouchability instead of demanding its abolition.
as “the knot”
A metaphor for the symptom-point: a rope-knot holding the whole table together, which once untied changes the entire structure.
as “the symptom”
The dalit condition is a point that presupposes the whole system, a knot which, once untied, transforms everything.
A particular struggle (dalit abolition) is universal because untying this one knot changes family relations, political logic, and the whole system.
Law is not a strong consistent system; to function it must be publicly denied and secretly violated by those in power.
as “you are the revolution”
Reversal: we who demand the law be followed are not the revolutionaries; power, which cheats on its own laws, is the revolution.
Used here not as grand theories but as the daily rules we all follow, how we go to the toilet, cook, walk, the everyday level where domination persists.
as “prohibition itself is prohibited”
Modern domination forbids you even from naming the subordination: you must act as if you are free while being subordinated.
Stories he reaches for 6
German toilets display the stool for health-inspection, French toilets hide it, Anglo-Saxon toilets float it, each design encodes a whole national ideology that cannot be explained pragmatically.
“if you visit germany the toilets are very strangely disposed. you have a hole where the shit disappears in the front.”
He admits the film is kitsch but likes the brutal part, children blinded to be used as beggars, because that is where the real cruelty of the system shows.
“i like that brutal part that you see, you know, blinding people to be beggars and so on”
A photo of Bill Gates and his wife smiling and embracing a sick Indian child captures how the rich like to see themselves, privileged savoring pity that confirms their own privilege.
“bill gates with his wife visited india and you see him and his wife with this smile for journalists embracing an ill small indian child.”
Israeli Zionists are mostly atheists who nonetheless claim God gave them the land of Israel, a neat illustration of how those in power must simultaneously deny and affirm the ground of their authority.
“god doesn't exist. they're mostly atheists, but nonetheless, god gave us the land of israel.”
When Serbs occupied a Bosnian village the standard procedure was to rape girls in front of their fathers, then castrate the father, humiliating the woman to break the pride of the whole community. This was civilized Europe, not the Middle East.
“girls were as a rule raped in front of their fathers. the idea was the father should cheat”
Western media cast the Taliban in Swat as crazy fundamentalists; one Times note revealed it was a feudal valley where 20 families owned the land and the Taliban won peasants by promising to throw out the landlords, the social dimension went unreported.
“swat valley was very feudal. 20 rich families owned all the land and Taliban got the peasants by telling them, join us and we will throw out the land.”
Works invoked 2
Slumdog Millionaire film
He calls it kitsch but likes the brutal part, children blinded to be beggars, because that is where the system's real cruelty surfaces and where he felt at home.
Stalin documentary film
Referenced to corroborate the pattern in which children of manual scavengers are made to clean school premises and the teacher denies it.
People invoked 6
Mahatma Gandhi negative
Gandhi's children-of-god solution glorifies scavenging as sacred and is used as a foil for the identity-politics error of aestheticizing misery rather than abolishing it; he also opposed sweeper strikes as an essential service.
Cited only as Balibar's former collaborator during his Marxist period.
B. R. Ambedkar positive
Žižek admires Ambedkar's wordplay 'no caste without outcasts' as the key to why dalit emancipation requires abolishing caste itself rather than Gandhi-style integration.
Mocked for exploding whenever Marxism/communism is mentioned while having practiced it with Althusser thirty years ago, ashamed of his radical past.
Bill Gates negative
The photo of Gates and his wife smiling while embracing an ill Indian child is held up as the disgusting self-image of the rich playing savior out of false sympathy.
Žižek has no illusions about Obama but notes his healthcare plan is attacked in the name of a manipulated freedom of choice, the same formal-freedom paradox as the caste system.
What it argues
Manual scavenging as caste-based daily oppressionIdeology embedded in everyday practices (toilets, bureaucracy, civility)The particular struggle that is universal: the symptom-knotModernity revitalizing tradition rather than abolishing itAuthority, law, and the command to choose freelyIdentity politics vs. universal emancipationLegalism as subversion: making power follow its own law
Dialectical moves 8
“we are not revolutionaries. you are the revolution.”
By merely demanding that power follow its own law, the activists expose the regime as the real law-breaker.
“no cast without outcasts (Ambedkar's wordplay, cited approvingly)”
Caste structurally requires an excluded other; integrating dalits into a harmonious caste order is impossible, abolition of caste is the only path.
“your struggle is by being particular is universal at the same time”
The narrowly particular dalit demand, once pursued, changes family, politics and ideology, the part that shakes the whole.
“modernization is not opposed to tradition; modernization can pick up a tradition and use it”
Modernity does not erase old hierarchies (slavery, caste) but reactivates them in modern form.
“prohibition itself is prohibited — you must act as if you are free”
Modern ideology forbids the naming of subordination; the subordinated must perform their own freedom.
“if he's beating his wife, it doesn't show his potency, power, it's his impotence”
The macho figure is re-read as weak: violence as the symptom of low status, not strength.
“law has to cheat on itself to function”
The strong legal order is not consistent, it must publicly deny and secretly violate its own rules to operate.
“the best thing is just to demand, which follow the law — we don't need to subvert the law”
Far from subverting law as the 1968 radicals did, the cunning move is to compel power to obey its own statutes.
Claims 20
asserts
Western coverage of religious fundamentalism (e.g. the Taliban in Swat Valley) suppresses its social/land-reform dimension, reducing it to crazed religiosity.Western media and fundamentalism
asserts
Israel practices terror by bureaucracy against Palestinians through minute daily regulations such as forbidding them to dig wells deeper than one metre.Israel/Palestine, bureaucratic oppression
asserts
Balibar is ashamed of his Marxist past and explodes whenever communism is mentioned, while having practiced it with Althusser thirty years ago.Balibar and the French left
reframes
Modernization is not opposed to tradition; it can pick up an old tradition and redeploy it, as early-modern slavery was reinvented in the name of modernity.modernity and tradition
asserts
Globalization does not mean everyone becomes an upper-middle-class American; it can integrate and revivify old hierarchies and ideologies.globalization and ideology
rejects
Identity politics falls in love with itself, making poetry out of misery instead of demanding emancipation, as the Gandhi solution does with untouchables.identity politics
rejects
Gandhi's children-of-god approach glorifies the scavenger's work as sacred rather than demanding the practice be abolished.Gandhi's solution to untouchability
asserts
The dalit struggle is universal precisely by being particular: solving this modest demand requires changing family relations, political logic, and the whole ideology.universality of the particular
asserts
Caste structurally requires an outcast — no caste without outcasts — so one cannot simply integrate dalits into a harmonious caste order.caste structure (via Ambedkar)
asserts
Capitalism's paradox: nothing can be done for global warming even at the cost of extinction, yet thousands of billions appear in a week for a financial crisis.capitalism and political will
asserts
Eradication of manual scavenging can be done quickly and cheaply; the pragmatists who say more time is needed are lying.abolition feasibility
asserts
Those in power secretly know that conceding this battle will force further concessions, which is why they stall.power and political strategy
asserts
Law has to cheat on itself to function; those in power systematically violate and deny their own rules at the same time.law and power
reframes
The best subversion is sometimes not to subvert the law but to demand that those in power follow their own laws.legalist tactics
asserts
Pure representative democracy — voting once every few years — is insufficient; constant mobilization and pressure are needed.representative democracy
asserts
Modern society officially proclaims equality while secretly practicing hierarchy, so the rules of domination function in a denied, secret way.ideology in modernity
asserts
Authority does not merely order you to do something; it tells you what you must freely decide, so that compliance appears as your free choice.authority and freedom
asserts
Prohibition itself is prohibited: under capitalist domination you are not only subordinated but must act as if you are free.ideology of freedom
reframes
A husband beating his wife displays impotence, not potency — violence as the symptom of a low, weak man, not a strong one.domestic violence and machismo
rejects
Freedom of choice is manipulated under capitalism; real choice presupposes functioning state power, traditions and infrastructure, not just formal options.freedom of choice (US healthcare)
Quotes 16
“if you are an israeli settler there, you can dig for water for a well. if you are a palestinian, you cannot dig longer than one meter.”Slavoj Žižek · terror by bureaucracy
“they would what i call fall in love with themselves. they would say, no, but we as untouchables have our own beauty, to make a poetry out of their misery.”Slavoj Žižek · identity politics self-love
“you don't want your specific way of life to be recognized. you don't want to bring all that gandhi poetry.”Slavoj Žižek · rejection of Gandhi glorification
“modernization is not opposed to tradition. modernization can pick up a tradition and use it.”Slavoj Žižek · modernity/tradition paradox
“globalization can integrate all these old ideologies.”Slavoj Žižek · globalization and ideology
“no cast without outcasts.”Slavoj Žižek · caste requires an outcast (Ambedkar via Žižek)
“you are a kind of a symptom or how should i put it, a point which... presupposes the whole system.”Slavoj Žižek · the symptom-knot
“law has to cheat on itself to function. those in power have to cheat, to admit, to deny it at the same time.”Slavoj Žižek · law cheating itself
“we just have to say, no, we are not revolutionaries. you are the revolution.”Slavoj Žižek · reversal of revolution
“prohibition itself is prohibited. you are not only subordinated, but you must act as if you are free.”Slavoj Žižek · prohibition prohibited
“authority doesn't only tell you you have to do this no it tells you what you have freely to do.”Slavoj Žižek · authority's command of freedom
“it can be done. don't you think it can be done very quickly. it's not true that it's not a big money exchange.”Slavoj Žižek · abolition feasibility
“if he's beating his wife, it doesn't show his potency, power, it's his impotence.”Slavoj Žižek · domestic violence as impotence
“it cannot be done, even if we will all die because of global warming. but when there was a financial crisis, you can do it in one week.”Slavoj Žižek · capitalism's priorities
“what freedom of choice do you have under the present system?... to die, to starve or what?”Slavoj Žižek · freedom of choice critique
“i am formally ordering you to voluntarily sign this.”Slavoj Žižek · voluntary coercion
Transcript 498 turns
Audience Member
yeah.
yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
thank. . the problem is if you write a text, you don't see many lines, you write a text i like to see, otherwise they are so practical smaller.
thank. . the problem is if you write a text, you don't see many lines, you write a text i like to see, otherwise they are so practical smaller.
Audience Member
yeah. you.
yeah. you.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
uh-huh.
uh-huh.
Slavoj Žižek
. oh my god. . hello. i.
. oh my god. . hello. i.
Audience Member
hi.
hi.
Slavoj Žižek
you are the boss. squeeze the.
you are the boss. squeeze the.
Audience Member
no, no, no, i'm not.
no, no, no, i'm not.
Slavoj Žižek
nobody.
nobody.
Audience Member
yeah.
yeah.
Ashwin Laksumunage
of. i i am here a pessimist. you know, people say, yeah, democratic, everybody is boss, but then...
of. i i am here a pessimist. you know, people say, yeah, democratic, everybody is boss, but then...
Slavoj Žižek
you know like the way you immediately see how you hear things here which you don't. you know what i mean? like in united states from time, for example, you remember when in pakistan taliban took that, how was it called, a certain valley.
you know like the way you immediately see how you hear things here which you don't. you know what i mean? like in united states from time, for example, you remember when in pakistan taliban took that, how was it called, a certain valley.
Ashwin Laksumunage
smart. yes a lot yes, a lot.
smart. yes a lot yes, a lot.
Slavoj Žižek
you know, for example, the western media reporter crazy fundamentalists, but only in one, is by mistake, in new york times, one short text said what it was about, that swat valley was very feudal. 20 rich families owned all the land and Taliban got the peasants by telling them, join us and we will throw out the land.
you know, for example, the western media reporter crazy fundamentalists, but only in one, is by mistake, in new york times, one short text said what it was about, that swat valley was very feudal. 20 rich families owned all the land and Taliban got the peasants by telling them, join us and we will throw out the land.
Ashwin Laksumunage
you.
you.
Slavoj Žižek
nobody even reported in the west of this social.
nobody even reported in the west of this social.
Ashwin Laksumunage
aspect.
aspect.
Slavoj Žižek
damn it was just some crazy religious guy, you know, you don don't get this,. or for example, in the west bank, you know, palestinians,? very rarely do you get the, everybody writes on terrorism and so on, but the daily life there. there are so many ridiculous regulations, totally ridiculous for pale. for example, if you are an israeli settler there, you can dig for water for a well.
damn it was just some crazy religious guy, you know, you don don't get this,. or for example, in the west bank, you know, palestinians,? very rarely do you get the, everybody writes on terrorism and so on, but the daily life there. there are so many ridiculous regulations, totally ridiculous for pale. for example, if you are an israeli settler there, you can dig for water for a well.
Audience Member
h.
h.
Slavoj Žižek
if you are a palestinian, you cannot dig longer than one meter. i don't know what they're afraid that you will build some tunnel for terrorists or what, but you know, this is crucial to know that it's not just state, it's how to put it, terror by bureaucracy, you know so many regulations
if you are a palestinian, you cannot dig longer than one meter. i don't know what they're afraid that you will build some tunnel for terrorists or what, but you know, this is crucial to know that it's not just state, it's how to put it, terror by bureaucracy, you know so many regulations
Audience Member
yeah, yeah yeah.
yeah, yeah yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
but i'm really glad to be here. i'm really glad to be here, my god. this is the guy, know, the... yeah car. yeah, yeah, yeah,., i read a lot about... his conflict with gandhi. and it's wonderful reading all that. i really appreciate it. i see how i simply didn't know about this other line, ambedkar.
but i'm really glad to be here. i'm really glad to be here, my god. this is the guy, know, the... yeah car. yeah, yeah, yeah,., i read a lot about... his conflict with gandhi. and it's wonderful reading all that. i really appreciate it. i see how i simply didn't know about this other line, ambedkar.
Ashwin Laksumunage
it
it
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
by
by
Slavoj Žižek
lib was
lib was
Ashwin Laksumunage
he seems to have read a bit of it, not much. Rancière has no idea about Gandhi or Ambedkar.
he seems to have read a bit of it, not much. Rancière has no idea about Gandhi or Ambedkar.
Slavoj Žižek
but Balibar wrote a text on Gandhi and Lenin
but Balibar wrote a text on Gandhi and Lenin
Ashwin Laksumunage
and kind of pro-gandhi in that, a bit kind of in a sense in which he thought it was necessary for global peace or some such thing. i don't recall. i did read the piece long ago.
and kind of pro-gandhi in that, a bit kind of in a sense in which he thought it was necessary for global peace or some such thing. i don't recall. i did read the piece long ago.
Slavoj Žižek
but the problem with Balibar, Balibar
but the problem with Balibar, Balibar
Ashwin Laksumunage
i think it's that the
i think it's that the
Slavoj Žižek
now now, yeah, you know what's the problem with balibar? he now, if you just mention marxism, communism, he explodes. but if you ask him what were you doing 30 years ago when he was still doing with Althusser, Marxism
now now, yeah, you know what's the problem with balibar? he now, if you just mention marxism, communism, he explodes. but if you ask him what were you doing 30 years ago when he was still doing with Althusser, Marxism
Ashwin Laksumunage
yeah.
yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
he gets offended, like he...
he gets offended, like he...
Ashwin Laksumunage
well, i mean, it's not fair to say 30 years ago he did that, so he has to do it today. no, i'm not saying this, but i'm saying that he...
well, i mean, it's not fair to say 30 years ago he did that, so he has to do it today. no, i'm not saying this, but i'm saying that he...
Slavoj Žižek
he's very ashamed of his.
he's very ashamed of his.
Ashwin Laksumunage
ma radical past. la as now. yeah.
ma radical past. la as now. yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
you french. how did you? displayplaced.
you french. how did you? displayplaced.
Ashwin Laksumunage
this is a good place. this. and tell them how you got this place. no, alex select this skills i to know.
this is a good place. this. and tell them how you got this place. no, alex select this skills i to know.
Audience Member
huh?
huh?
Ashwin Laksumunage
uh. what what?
uh. what what?
Audience Member
what's?
what's?
Slavoj Žižek
.
.
Ashwin Laksumunage
so all these are newspaper reports.
so all these are newspaper reports.
Slavoj Žižek
okay oh, yeah, me. yeah, yeah, yeah.
okay oh, yeah, me. yeah, yeah, yeah.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
i'm. in crime.
i'm. in crime.
Ashwin Laksumunage
yeah.
yeah.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
i. that.
i. that.
Ashwin Laksumunage
i.
i.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
i.
i.
Audience Member
mil.
mil.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
.
.
Audience Member
yeah, that.
yeah, that.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
iama.
iama.
Ashwin Laksumunage
in.
in.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
it's a monoman thing.
it's a monoman thing.
Ashwin Laksumunage
okay,.
okay,.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
raj better.
raj better.
Audience Member
thank.
thank.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
. yeah no,.
. yeah no,.
Audience Member
yeah.
yeah.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
but don't take this and take some other change.
but don't take this and take some other change.
Ashwin Laksumunage
alle.
alle.
Audience Member
what?
what?
Ashwin Laksumunage
thank.
thank.
Audience Member
thank.
thank.
Ashwin Laksumunage
asking.
asking.
Audience Member
blend.
blend.
Ashwin Laksumunage
do you want some black tea?
do you want some black tea?
Slavoj Žižek
without yes, but without sugar. without sugar.
without yes, but without sugar. without sugar.
Ashwin Laksumunage
i. it
i. it
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
after we
after we
Ashwin Laksumunage
thank. you don't require any support.
thank. you don't require any support.
Audience Member
yeah.
yeah.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
because we started just alone and two, three people like
because we started just alone and two, three people like
Ashwin Laksumunage
in k where the goldfields are his parents, his whole community was involved in the job of manual scavenging. and he when he goes on his first trip and he retches, he just throws up. and then he starts the struggle first there. to put an end to manual scavenging. from kolar then he moves to andhraadesh and then slowly people gathered around him. you know, it's like people were waiting for somebody to.
in k where the goldfields are his parents, his whole community was involved in the job of manual scavenging. and he when he goes on his first trip and he retches, he just throws up. and then he starts the struggle first there. to put an end to manual scavenging. from kolar then he moves to andhraadesh and then slowly people gathered around him. you know, it's like people were waiting for somebody to.
Slavoj Žižek
help them stop it..
help them stop it..
Ashwin Laksumunage
somebody else.
somebody else.
Slavoj Žižek
i't it earlier.
i't it earlier.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
ah ya no rec car gente. but i a.
ah ya no rec car gente. but i a.
Slavoj Žižek
i think. did you take an event?
i think. did you take an event?
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
how gun.
how gun.
Slavoj Žižek
when people will be looking at daily those games and focus on that. exactly to be an embarrassment.
when people will be looking at daily those games and focus on that. exactly to be an embarrassment.
Ashwin Laksumunage
you don't get rid of it before commonwealth games, then we're going to... talk shit.
you don't get rid of it before commonwealth games, then we're going to... talk shit.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
yeah
yeah
Ashwin Laksumunage
options. ob.
options. ob.
Slavoj Žižek
what i would have done, i want to propose them, i would even think about like... why not more radical provocations, like to organize some shit procession, throw shit at them or?
what i would have done, i want to propose them, i would even think about like... why not more radical provocations, like to organize some shit procession, throw shit at them or?
Audience Member
in
in
Slavoj Žižek
no you must, the only way it works, you know, i hate those when you do something a little bit more violent, then liberals say, okay, we agree with you, but why you didn't do it in a more moderate way?
no you must, the only way it works, you know, i hate those when you do something a little bit more violent, then liberals say, okay, we agree with you, but why you didn't do it in a more moderate way?
Ashwin Laksumunage
when you do it in a, people have been trying to do it for a long time, you know, for instance in the... in the 30s and 40s, sweepers and manual scavengers went on a series of strikes and both gandhi and other conservative groups, no, no, opposed that. he says, gandhi was generally opposed to strike. the idea of a strike. he says especially manual scavengers and sweepers should not strike because it's an essential service.
when you do it in a, people have been trying to do it for a long time, you know, for instance in the... in the 30s and 40s, sweepers and manual scavengers went on a series of strikes and both gandhi and other conservative groups, no, no, opposed that. he says, gandhi was generally opposed to strike. the idea of a strike. he says especially manual scavengers and sweepers should not strike because it's an essential service.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
yeah.
yeah.
Ashwin Laksumunage
he spoke like a bureaucrat, you know, essential services maintenance act, we have one which came after that. so he said anybody can strike, maybe, but strike is not a good thing at all. that's what gandhi would say. but if the sweeper strikes, the entire city will stink, it'll spread ill health, it'll spread disease. if he has to... want more wage for his labor, whatever. there are other means of seeking it. anyway it's a service to society he has to do it.
he spoke like a bureaucrat, you know, essential services maintenance act, we have one which came after that. so he said anybody can strike, maybe, but strike is not a good thing at all. that's what gandhi would say. but if the sweeper strikes, the entire city will stink, it'll spread ill health, it'll spread disease. if he has to... want more wage for his labor, whatever. there are other means of seeking it. anyway it's a service to society he has to do it.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah on the other hand, the whole point of a strike is that you strike where it hurts i mean, nobody, although it is true that it's so tragic, here you can see how, at least in the west, print, you know, there was some point when workers were striking for higher wages and so on. today in the west, a typical strike is just to keep the, you know, like, what is a typical strike? let's say they decide to close a factory and then workers strike like you should take care of us. you know, it's a much more desperate strike.
yeah on the other hand, the whole point of a strike is that you strike where it hurts i mean, nobody, although it is true that it's so tragic, here you can see how, at least in the west, print, you know, there was some point when workers were striking for higher wages and so on. today in the west, a typical strike is just to keep the, you know, like, what is a typical strike? let's say they decide to close a factory and then workers strike like you should take care of us. you know, it's a much more desperate strike.
Ashwin Laksumunage
yeah.
yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
it's no longer a strike where you negotiate from position of power. but you know what is happening in my country? it's very tragic. it's that. we if... jobs which are relatively well paid. like doctors maybe teachers and then we have low jobs like a symbol with us is we still have some textile. workers usually we mean who work. factoryileories no? yeah okay. the problem is that the poor women don't dare to strike. because they know, if you strike the safety tanks, you are fired.
it's no longer a strike where you negotiate from position of power. but you know what is happening in my country? it's very tragic. it's that. we if... jobs which are relatively well paid. like doctors maybe teachers and then we have low jobs like a symbol with us is we still have some textile. workers usually we mean who work. factoryileories no? yeah okay. the problem is that the poor women don't dare to strike. because they know, if you strike the safety tanks, you are fired.
Audience Member
yeah.
yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
you know who strikes? those who are the privileged part. they strike to get even more. for example, doctors strike. doctors who are
you know who strikes? those who are the privileged part. they strike to get even more. for example, doctors strike. doctors who are
Ashwin Laksumunage
one of the recent big strikes was by faculty in indian institute of technology which is an elite institute which produces so-called elite.
one of the recent big strikes was by faculty in indian institute of technology which is an elite institute which produces so-called elite.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah,.
yeah,.
Ashwin Laksumunage
uh so
uh so
Slavoj Žižek
inde.
inde.
Ashwin Laksumunage
they strike because they've got something like... a good salary and
they strike because they've got something like... a good salary and
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
yeah
yeah
Ashwin Laksumunage
better
better
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
sal
sal
Slavoj Žižek
then a good salary.
then a good salary.
Ashwin Laksumunage
. par. the privileged strikes to get even more, the poor are
. par. the privileged strikes to get even more, the poor are
Slavoj Žižek
so afraid of losing their job they don't dare to strike,. and you know what also shocked me in united states? how all these you know leftist radical theorists, but they don't see what is happening around them. like, for example, i remember i was at a university and very marxist radical departments and some of those mexican illegal cleaning workers and so on were striking and nobody wanted to hear about it you know like
so afraid of losing their job they don't dare to strike,. and you know what also shocked me in united states? how all these you know leftist radical theorists, but they don't see what is happening around them. like, for example, i remember i was at a university and very marxist radical departments and some of those mexican illegal cleaning workers and so on were striking and nobody wanted to hear about it you know like
Ashwin Laksumunage
today, i mean most of the he'll tell you who are involved in manual scavenging end up being migrant workers. so when you're a migrant worker in a new city, it's even more difficult for you to strike. because you risk.
today, i mean most of the he'll tell you who are involved in manual scavenging end up being migrant workers. so when you're a migrant worker in a new city, it's even more difficult for you to strike. because you risk.
Bezwada Wilson
didn't change.
didn't change.
Ashwin Laksumunage
you you don't even have a proper home sometimes. so people who are working in say new delhi railway station, working there, when i went to meet them, i sent you that printout yesterday which has a thing called when the train stops in new delhi.
you you don't even have a proper home sometimes. so people who are working in say new delhi railway station, working there, when i went to meet them, i sent you that printout yesterday which has a thing called when the train stops in new delhi.
Slavoj Žižek
m.
m.
Ashwin Laksumunage
most of them are... tamamu workers working in new delhi railway station. they've been brought here on a contract. and they have to listen to the there's no question of a strike because you are here basically because you won't do the same shit job back in tamil nadu in chennai, medras. so you come all the way here. and do it and you tell your back home that i'm doing a job in delhi.
most of them are... tamamu workers working in new delhi railway station. they've been brought here on a contract. and they have to listen to the there's no question of a strike because you are here basically because you won't do the same shit job back in tamil nadu in chennai, medras. so you come all the way here. and do it and you tell your back home that i'm doing a job in delhi.
Slavoj Žižek
but okay, economists know this. this is what fascinates me. how, okay, it's not the old-fashioned slavery, but how something approaching that it's exploding again you know that today, i think, not tomorrow, they are opening the highest building in the world in dubai.
but okay, economists know this. this is what fascinates me. how, okay, it's not the old-fashioned slavery, but how something approaching that it's exploding again you know that today, i think, not tomorrow, they are opening the highest building in the world in dubai.
Ashwin Laksumunage
is it? okay?
is it? okay?
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, it's really crazy. it's over 800 meters, you know they even claim you have different weather, how do you call it, zones.
yeah, it's really crazy. it's over 800 meters, you know they even claim you have different weather, how do you call it, zones.
Ashwin Laksumunage
with. hey.
with. hey.
Slavoj Žižek
and up on the top it's 10 degrees less already. than down. but the thing is that you know it was basically built by half slave labor and nobody reports that no they are invisible older and it would be good to make them visible all this how they are not slave in the old sense, you know like literally but de facto you you know how they do it they take your like your workers you know de facto you don't have mobility you don't have any rights and you are de facto a slave although formally they are even worse because they even can't leave.
and up on the top it's 10 degrees less already. than down. but the thing is that you know it was basically built by half slave labor and nobody reports that no they are invisible older and it would be good to make them visible all this how they are not slave in the old sense, you know like literally but de facto you you know how they do it they take your like your workers you know de facto you don't have mobility you don't have any rights and you are de facto a slave although formally they are even worse because they even can't leave.
Ashwin Laksumunage
yeah, yeah.
yeah, yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
their passports are taken.
their passports are taken.
Ashwin Laksumunage
there's a story again in the front page, the stowaway who came away from from jaipur, you know.
there's a story again in the front page, the stowaway who came away from from jaipur, you know.
Slavoj Žižek
yes, yeah.
yes, yeah.
Ashwin Laksumunage
yeah, he came he had the same problem. here. he had just one acre of land. oh. that. he was making up about... yeah. about 250,0 rupees you know, which just say about how much? it would be about $50.
yeah, he came he had the same problem. here. he had just one acre of land. oh. that. he was making up about... yeah. about 250,0 rupees you know, which just say about how much? it would be about $50.
Slavoj Žižek
there.
there.
Ashwin Laksumunage
about $100 kind of a month..
about $100 kind of a month..
Slavoj Žižek
yeah
yeah
Ashwin Laksumunage
he got a much better option. so he went to saudi arabia to work. i and uh... the job condition was so bad that he had to... i know, i also
he got a much better option. so he went to saudi arabia to work. i and uh... the job condition was so bad that he had to... i know, i also
Slavoj Žižek
i i saw it. it is in today's newspapers. yeah, yeah. but also they trick you. i read somewhere, what's the trick? they first promise you hij job. once you are there, they take your passport. they tell you it was a misunderstanding, but on the top of it, they claim we had costs bringing you here. so you cannot even leave because first you must earn to pay for the trip here and so on. so you are de facto a kind of a temporary slave, i mean, no?
i i saw it. it is in today's newspapers. yeah, yeah. but also they trick you. i read somewhere, what's the trick? they first promise you hij job. once you are there, they take your passport. they tell you it was a misunderstanding, but on the top of it, they claim we had costs bringing you here. so you cannot even leave because first you must earn to pay for the trip here and so on. so you are de facto a kind of a temporary slave, i mean, no?
Ashwin Laksumunage
and this guy, he had sold off his land.
and this guy, he had sold off his land.
Slavoj Žižek
so he cannot return even no.
so he cannot return even no.
Ashwin Laksumunage
yeah, and it's just not about the money, it's also the kind of social alienation you have. yeah, yeah, yeah. i. i. thank.
yeah, and it's just not about the money, it's also the kind of social alienation you have. yeah, yeah, yeah. i. i. thank.
Slavoj Žižek
a journalist tried musk as a tourist, went to dubai. and looked at okay all these wonderful buildings who is doing them? first he discovered the death rate is horrible. you know on these mega high buildings workers work they drop like flies every day one to die and nobody sorry but i talk too much. i'm here to learn i'm sorry.
a journalist tried musk as a tourist, went to dubai. and looked at okay all these wonderful buildings who is doing them? first he discovered the death rate is horrible. you know on these mega high buildings workers work they drop like flies every day one to die and nobody sorry but i talk too much. i'm here to learn i'm sorry.
Ashwin Laksumunage
no now they'll make this presentation on manual scavenging. so they give you an idea of what they are working on and what is this whole target 2010. and Wilson and Anuradha will take over now. you are nonetheless the boss, then you will take.
no now they'll make this presentation on manual scavenging. so they give you an idea of what they are working on and what is this whole target 2010. and Wilson and Anuradha will take over now. you are nonetheless the boss, then you will take.
Slavoj Žižek
covid.
covid.
Bezwada Wilson
i mean because other friends. i it's a great pleasure privileged to have jik here.
i mean because other friends. i it's a great pleasure privileged to have jik here.
Slavoj Žižek
from an ex-communist country which maybe some of you remember it was probably even in your news all around the world there was a heavy civil war in the early 90s in ex-yugoslavia and it was quite a shock because you know we in europe we tend to be not a little bit or not even just a little bit, but a lot of racists, you know. we, i wouldn't say we like, but we like to observe things happening in countries outside europe and with this false sympathy, you know, you see the poverty, but it makes you feel good because you feel privileged, you know, all those poor people and then you can play, if you are rich, the role of bill gates, you know. like one of the most disgusting pictures i saw maybe it was about a year ago i think bill gates with his wife visited india and you see him and his wife with this smile for journalists embracing an ill small indian child and that's how they like to see themselves so this our war was a reminder that you know we are nothing special. it can happen with us there. it was a war also of incredible cruelty. i'm telling the same thing to people in the middle east. i spoke with many journalists. who told me. first they were covering middle east. israel, palestina and so on, then they came to bosnia. and they shipped. my god, they are civilized people there, israel pale. you know, we read a lot about terror there and so on, but they discovered, my god. bosnia to give you an idea, even for i mean, this is why when i saw the film, i know it's kits, but i like like in slamum dog millionaire. i like that brutal part that you see, you know, blinding people to be beggars and so on, no? i mean, that's where i felt at home you know you, to give you an idea, when the serbs occupied a bosnian village, the standard procedure was. you first rape the girls ah comes the crucial thing in and here we come to your problem, dalit. the problem is one of the books you sent me is that humiliation?
from an ex-communist country which maybe some of you remember it was probably even in your news all around the world there was a heavy civil war in the early 90s in ex-yugoslavia and it was quite a shock because you know we in europe we tend to be not a little bit or not even just a little bit, but a lot of racists, you know. we, i wouldn't say we like, but we like to observe things happening in countries outside europe and with this false sympathy, you know, you see the poverty, but it makes you feel good because you feel privileged, you know, all those poor people and then you can play, if you are rich, the role of bill gates, you know. like one of the most disgusting pictures i saw maybe it was about a year ago i think bill gates with his wife visited india and you see him and his wife with this smile for journalists embracing an ill small indian child and that's how they like to see themselves so this our war was a reminder that you know we are nothing special. it can happen with us there. it was a war also of incredible cruelty. i'm telling the same thing to people in the middle east. i spoke with many journalists. who told me. first they were covering middle east. israel, palestina and so on, then they came to bosnia. and they shipped. my god, they are civilized people there, israel pale. you know, we read a lot about terror there and so on, but they discovered, my god. bosnia to give you an idea, even for i mean, this is why when i saw the film, i know it's kits, but i like like in slamum dog millionaire. i like that brutal part that you see, you know, blinding people to be beggars and so on, no? i mean, that's where i felt at home you know you, to give you an idea, when the serbs occupied a bosnian village, the standard procedure was. you first rape the girls ah comes the crucial thing in and here we come to your problem, dalit. the problem is one of the books you sent me is that humiliation?
Ashwin Laksumunage
yeah.
yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
it was not so much rape as... humiliating the woman but through her to hit the pride of the entire community. girls were as a rule raped in front of their fathers. the idea was the father should cheat and then you have, you know, this desperate... lookke of the girl, father, can't you help me? and this, because the usual procedure was then they cut off the testicles of the father he has to kill them undescribable. this was our civilized europe. they there are no longer ideologies. this is the past. we have market neutral no, i claim we have them and you are for me the living proof of it. why? for me today, of course, nobody believes in big ideologies you know like i don't know socialism or what. but ideology is for me, as i said already that ideology is for me and you are the victims of it you know these daily rules that we all follow and this is why my first association was, my god, you know, i wrote a text which then was reproduced everywhere, analyzing europe. with regard to thank you very much with regard to different toilets, different structure of toilets, you know the joke, you know how it goes that if you visit germany... the toilets are very strangely disposed. you have a hole where the shit disappears in the front. so the idea is when you produce sheet, it is there displayed. germans has this old obscene ritual. after you go to shit, you smell your sheet, you inspect it every morning to see your health. french are the opposite. the french, the hole is in the back, sheet should disappear. anglo-saxon toilets usually full of water, shit floats there. and then i asked myself why this difference? and i discovered the whole ideology is in it. you cannot explain it pragmatic. and this, okay, we can talk about this later. don't want to talk too much. so what i want to just to say is that that's why you are so fascinated. first, you... you live in a society which is officially egalitarian. you shouldn't even exist. everybody is illegal and so on. but this is our... paradox today that how even if officially there is no longer racism or hierarchies, people still practice it. and these everyday small level things and this is what. interests me so much how you know you are the living proof that globalization doesn't necessarily mean it has its good aspects but globalization doesn't mean we will all become like upper middle class americans. no globalization can integrate all these old ideologies so this is what interests me so much about that's why i'm really interesting and i can promise you i want to write something about it then to try to publish it no because you are again the living proof of how even in a society which wants to be democratic how all this ideology survives in daily practices you
it was not so much rape as... humiliating the woman but through her to hit the pride of the entire community. girls were as a rule raped in front of their fathers. the idea was the father should cheat and then you have, you know, this desperate... lookke of the girl, father, can't you help me? and this, because the usual procedure was then they cut off the testicles of the father he has to kill them undescribable. this was our civilized europe. they there are no longer ideologies. this is the past. we have market neutral no, i claim we have them and you are for me the living proof of it. why? for me today, of course, nobody believes in big ideologies you know like i don't know socialism or what. but ideology is for me, as i said already that ideology is for me and you are the victims of it you know these daily rules that we all follow and this is why my first association was, my god, you know, i wrote a text which then was reproduced everywhere, analyzing europe. with regard to thank you very much with regard to different toilets, different structure of toilets, you know the joke, you know how it goes that if you visit germany... the toilets are very strangely disposed. you have a hole where the shit disappears in the front. so the idea is when you produce sheet, it is there displayed. germans has this old obscene ritual. after you go to shit, you smell your sheet, you inspect it every morning to see your health. french are the opposite. the french, the hole is in the back, sheet should disappear. anglo-saxon toilets usually full of water, shit floats there. and then i asked myself why this difference? and i discovered the whole ideology is in it. you cannot explain it pragmatic. and this, okay, we can talk about this later. don't want to talk too much. so what i want to just to say is that that's why you are so fascinated. first, you... you live in a society which is officially egalitarian. you shouldn't even exist. everybody is illegal and so on. but this is our... paradox today that how even if officially there is no longer racism or hierarchies, people still practice it. and these everyday small level things and this is what. interests me so much how you know you are the living proof that globalization doesn't necessarily mean it has its good aspects but globalization doesn't mean we will all become like upper middle class americans. no globalization can integrate all these old ideologies so this is what interests me so much about that's why i'm really interesting and i can promise you i want to write something about it then to try to publish it no because you are again the living proof of how even in a society which wants to be democratic how all this ideology survives in daily practices you
Ashwin Laksumunage
i. we.
i. we.
Slavoj Žižek
sorry, too long. i talked too much.
sorry, too long. i talked too much.
Ashwin Laksumunage
actually actually ran for the presidency of the new
actually actually ran for the presidency of the new
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
yeah. being.
yeah. being.
Ashwin Laksumunage
and he narrowly lost and he is an author of more than 40, 50 books and the reason why i connected with him, people think this road show, he's talking books and other things. but the first email i wrote to him was about toilets, was about s karamari, was about that's how we connected. because i read him on the german toilets, on the french toilets, the anglo-saxon toilet and i said, what about the indian way of doing things? we have many types. and over to wilson now. yeah.
and he narrowly lost and he is an author of more than 40, 50 books and the reason why i connected with him, people think this road show, he's talking books and other things. but the first email i wrote to him was about toilets, was about s karamari, was about that's how we connected. because i read him on the german toilets, on the french toilets, the anglo-saxon toilet and i said, what about the indian way of doing things? we have many types. and over to wilson now. yeah.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
my name is.
my name is.
Ashwin Laksumunage
Bezwada Wilson.
Bezwada Wilson.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
i'm. i sorry. a national convenener of this movement called safi karmachari andola. it's all.
i'm. i sorry. a national convenener of this movement called safi karmachari andola. it's all.
Slavoj Žižek
no, i'm sorry. okay, under control. thank you.
no, i'm sorry. okay, under control. thank you.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
uh... this is a moment of... actually from the almost the people of from the community. it is a community-based movement. and we can't say exactly when we have initiated this, though we say claim that it is so and-so date. we strongly believe that it is a kind of a relay race. it is a relay race.
uh... this is a moment of... actually from the almost the people of from the community. it is a community-based movement. and we can't say exactly when we have initiated this, though we say claim that it is so and-so date. we strongly believe that it is a kind of a relay race. it is a relay race.
Slavoj Žižek
pretty good.
pretty good.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
related.
related.
Slavoj Žižek
race you
race you
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
it matter you will just pass to other. so what we felt very strongly is it has a centuries before the race has started. but it is never reached to the destination. because of various reasons. what we are doing now is we want to reach to the destination in the same race zone. so we can't claim that we are the... we are exactly.
it matter you will just pass to other. so what we felt very strongly is it has a centuries before the race has started. but it is never reached to the destination. because of various reasons. what we are doing now is we want to reach to the destination in the same race zone. so we can't claim that we are the... we are exactly.
Slavoj Žižek
needs to abolish.
needs to abolish.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
and we have the fixed target for that action plan.
and we have the fixed target for that action plan.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah.
yeah.
Ashwin Laksumunage
yeah.
yeah.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
and now we have the 361 days. so whoever wants to join with us or do something for this. they have to work before the 361 days on.
and now we have the 361 days. so whoever wants to join with us or do something for this. they have to work before the 361 days on.
Ashwin Laksumunage
so you have a deadline for your.
so you have a deadline for your.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
for everywhere everywhere. so we have the deadline very clear. this is called action 2010. and in this aspect we are happy to be actually with you here today. and because of your struggle. not because any other things, because i am not so good in any ideological debates or anything much. i have just i feel actions and i have seen and i have read about you and other things and which has impressed really much and these struggles will continue across the world wherever there is a discrimination. wherever there is a inequality, wherever there is a struggle for the freedom. so, we feel this manual scavenging is also one of the such struggle. which is happening. may not be reached to the stage of the civil war or anything. but i can say that it is more than the civil war. because ideologically or mentally. the people 5,000 years oppression. from there to coming out.
for everywhere everywhere. so we have the deadline very clear. this is called action 2010. and in this aspect we are happy to be actually with you here today. and because of your struggle. not because any other things, because i am not so good in any ideological debates or anything much. i have just i feel actions and i have seen and i have read about you and other things and which has impressed really much and these struggles will continue across the world wherever there is a discrimination. wherever there is a inequality, wherever there is a struggle for the freedom. so, we feel this manual scavenging is also one of the such struggle. which is happening. may not be reached to the stage of the civil war or anything. but i can say that it is more than the civil war. because ideologically or mentally. the people 5,000 years oppression. from there to coming out.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah.
yeah.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
it is we can't image actually. when we started, when i know that. in my childhood. i was totally lost. so how i can recognize myself. so it has become an identity problem. who am i? i. came to know that i became an untouchable. for that i haven't done anything. just i born as a son of untouchables. that i was told. then i became untouchable. i never felt that i am untouchable, but the whole world is looking me untouchable. then i started thinking that even the whole world says me i am untable. better i will not accept. let the whole world say me as an untouchable. but i felt in my strong feeling. close to my heart. i felt, i am not. i will not accept this. because i am as equal you. there just started actually the struggle.
it is we can't image actually. when we started, when i know that. in my childhood. i was totally lost. so how i can recognize myself. so it has become an identity problem. who am i? i. came to know that i became an untouchable. for that i haven't done anything. just i born as a son of untouchables. that i was told. then i became untouchable. i never felt that i am untouchable, but the whole world is looking me untouchable. then i started thinking that even the whole world says me i am untable. better i will not accept. let the whole world say me as an untouchable. but i felt in my strong feeling. close to my heart. i felt, i am not. i will not accept this. because i am as equal you. there just started actually the struggle.
Slavoj Žižek
in my life. sorry to interrupt you. i found this wonderful what you said because hke put it the way i see your movement. the danger is... if something like what you are doing were to happen in united states, they would what i call fall in love with themselves. they would say, no, but we as untables as untouchables have our own beauty. you should see the beauty, you know, to make a poetry out of their misery. this is called usually identity politics, you know. and i loved what you said. no, your point is not people should see that we untouchables also have the dignity. this was the way i read, not the ambedkar, but the gandhi. solution. you are the children. be careful when somebody calls you children of god, he must do something there is some bad surprise and this is crucial what you say. universality. no, you don't want your specific way of life to be recognized. you don't want to bring you know all that gandhi poetry. cleaning the sheet is also a sacred.
in my life. sorry to interrupt you. i found this wonderful what you said because hke put it the way i see your movement. the danger is... if something like what you are doing were to happen in united states, they would what i call fall in love with themselves. they would say, no, but we as untables as untouchables have our own beauty. you should see the beauty, you know, to make a poetry out of their misery. this is called usually identity politics, you know. and i loved what you said. no, your point is not people should see that we untouchables also have the dignity. this was the way i read, not the ambedkar, but the gandhi. solution. you are the children. be careful when somebody calls you children of god, he must do something there is some bad surprise and this is crucial what you say. universality. no, you don't want your specific way of life to be recognized. you don't want to bring you know all that gandhi poetry. cleaning the sheet is also a sacred.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
other
other
Slavoj Žižek
you are like mother.
you are like mother.
Ashwin Laksumunage
you are like a god.
you are like a god.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
you are the children of god. and the person who is cleaning the toilet is like my mother because my mother cleaned my shit. you are also doing. so the glorifying the
you are the children of god. and the person who is cleaning the toilet is like my mother because my mother cleaned my shit. you are also doing. so the glorifying the
Ashwin Laksumunage
spiritual experience meeting the.
spiritual experience meeting the.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, yeah, yes, yeah, i know, i know. and this is wonderful that you know this because here you are more progressive than in the west. in the west they... again, as i said, they fall in love with themselves, you know, they start to say, but we can be loved for what we are now. you said it wonderfully. i don't want to be what. it's what society identifies me as.
yeah, yeah, yes, yeah, i know, i know. and this is wonderful that you know this because here you are more progressive than in the west. in the west they... again, as i said, they fall in love with themselves, you know, they start to say, but we can be loved for what we are now. you said it wonderfully. i don't want to be what. it's what society identifies me as.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
i want to... accept myself what i am. so that we he started just like that. and another thing is that there is there are so many ideologies. there are so many influences in this society. so in each and every influence and ideology makes us more vulnerable actually. and it is not allowing us to come out of that. so i started just. unbelieving anything. i will not believe. so you say something i will not believe. i want to come out of my own problem. so there we started this and struggle actually, it started from the why i am mentioning this? as a dalit in this country. and untouchable how when it comes to you know you are untouchable you will totally you lost so you feel that the whole world, whatever you have before, everything has shattered and you became just like that. and you share with somebody, your neighbor or your own brother, brother will tell you very clearly, shitet, that is why you are unnecessary making. it is a secret business. directly they are not telling you. as long as they are not telling you you are untouchable, you just keep quiet.
i want to... accept myself what i am. so that we he started just like that. and another thing is that there is there are so many ideologies. there are so many influences in this society. so in each and every influence and ideology makes us more vulnerable actually. and it is not allowing us to come out of that. so i started just. unbelieving anything. i will not believe. so you say something i will not believe. i want to come out of my own problem. so there we started this and struggle actually, it started from the why i am mentioning this? as a dalit in this country. and untouchable how when it comes to you know you are untouchable you will totally you lost so you feel that the whole world, whatever you have before, everything has shattered and you became just like that. and you share with somebody, your neighbor or your own brother, brother will tell you very clearly, shitet, that is why you are unnecessary making. it is a secret business. directly they are not telling you. as long as they are not telling you you are untouchable, you just keep quiet.
Slavoj Žižek
yep
yep
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
so one day they will tell even untouchable. for me also they said several times you are a bungi or toti or something.
so one day they will tell even untouchable. for me also they said several times you are a bungi or toti or something.
Ashwin Laksumunage
there are derogatory words used to untouchable is in english. so you have very derogatory, it's like nigger or worse, like kafir, you know abusive terms, you know, when you say chura chamar kind of thing, the way it is said by a non
there are derogatory words used to untouchable is in english. so you have very derogatory, it's like nigger or worse, like kafir, you know abusive terms, you know, when you say chura chamar kind of thing, the way it is said by a non
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
alle.
alle.
Ashwin Laksumunage
it is meant to abuse you. it is meant to humiliate you in the very utterance of the word. so he says, one day or the other you are going to be called that. you know you can't hide it. hide it but the thing is the community also believes that. why we want to
it is meant to abuse you. it is meant to humiliate you in the very utterance of the word. so he says, one day or the other you are going to be called that. you know you can't hide it. hide it but the thing is the community also believes that. why we want to
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
was that before it comes to us directly. so there is a kind of a notion within the community that we don't want to tackle this. and society also, indian society feels very comfortably. they are not losing by having the untouchables. one out of six. indian population and untouchables. it just... which is two. 17% right now. so one out of 6 when it is untouchable, it is definitely the problem of the another five. but five never failed. it is a problem of them. five always felt that is a problem of the one. and they also felt for that so many ideologies. so many spiritual things. so many vedas and everything sanctions. so it made very clearly, comfortably enjoying all the privileges. out of this one person's exploitation. by exploiting one person. so they are totally ignorant about the liberation of these people. the community feels that why we should do. because of a neo all democracy, all these things. we feel that we are the very freedom-loving people. we are more democrats and india is a great country and we are all citizens of this whole country and the legacy and that. so there is a kind of a silent silence. it is a prevailing in indian society. nobody wants to break that. if somebody comes out to say that nothing, it is enough, you stop here only. there will be scope for the change at the. but it never happened. so we started like this. so i will just go to the presentation. in hindu epic. they mentioned the 15 jobs for the chandalas are untouchables. there they mentioned. taking the sheet. cleaning the sheet is also one of the jobs. so, we can't say that it is the upshoot of the problem of the urbanization. because when it is earlier veda's period, it was there. part of the ancient hindu text.
was that before it comes to us directly. so there is a kind of a notion within the community that we don't want to tackle this. and society also, indian society feels very comfortably. they are not losing by having the untouchables. one out of six. indian population and untouchables. it just... which is two. 17% right now. so one out of 6 when it is untouchable, it is definitely the problem of the another five. but five never failed. it is a problem of them. five always felt that is a problem of the one. and they also felt for that so many ideologies. so many spiritual things. so many vedas and everything sanctions. so it made very clearly, comfortably enjoying all the privileges. out of this one person's exploitation. by exploiting one person. so they are totally ignorant about the liberation of these people. the community feels that why we should do. because of a neo all democracy, all these things. we feel that we are the very freedom-loving people. we are more democrats and india is a great country and we are all citizens of this whole country and the legacy and that. so there is a kind of a silent silence. it is a prevailing in indian society. nobody wants to break that. if somebody comes out to say that nothing, it is enough, you stop here only. there will be scope for the change at the. but it never happened. so we started like this. so i will just go to the presentation. in hindu epic. they mentioned the 15 jobs for the chandalas are untouchables. there they mentioned. taking the sheet. cleaning the sheet is also one of the jobs. so, we can't say that it is the upshoot of the problem of the urbanization. because when it is earlier veda's period, it was there. part of the ancient hindu text.
Slavoj Žižek
yes, but nonetheless it was revitalized with modernization. that's the paradox that i like, how modernization can edit where, create or bring out old tradition, you know how modernization is not opposed to tradition. modernization can pick up a tradition and use it. it's like in europe, you know, slavery was again invented in early modernity, like slavery and so on. sorry.
yes, but nonetheless it was revitalized with modernization. that's the paradox that i like, how modernization can edit where, create or bring out old tradition, you know how modernization is not opposed to tradition. modernization can pick up a tradition and use it. it's like in europe, you know, slavery was again invented in early modernity, like slavery and so on. sorry.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
in the name of name of modernity, we also bring whatever actual the problems and where we can exploit more.
in the name of name of modernity, we also bring whatever actual the problems and where we can exploit more.
Ashwin Laksumunage
yeah.
yeah.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
but very modern, fascinate way we can exploit the people. but our question is, why is the specific group of people only forced to do this? okay, you can say that it is a problem of that or this or. so as a outline we can discuss today what is the reality of manual scavenging? and the caste ideology. we say that the social basis is the caste.
but very modern, fascinate way we can exploit the people. but our question is, why is the specific group of people only forced to do this? okay, you can say that it is a problem of that or this or. so as a outline we can discuss today what is the reality of manual scavenging? and the caste ideology. we say that the social basis is the caste.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah
yeah
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
and second is what responded by ska as the team, safai karmacharya. these three lines so we can have our total discussion. so we can see this very clearly. it is a violation of the human rights as a broad. and we can see that three categories and actually we can also make more one is the manual scavengers, sewer workers or septic tank cleaners and the sweepers. today for us, for our discussion, we are not touching the third category sweepers. sweeping is everywhere.
and second is what responded by ska as the team, safai karmacharya. these three lines so we can have our total discussion. so we can see this very clearly. it is a violation of the human rights as a broad. and we can see that three categories and actually we can also make more one is the manual scavengers, sewer workers or septic tank cleaners and the sweepers. today for us, for our discussion, we are not touching the third category sweepers. sweeping is everywhere.
Ashwin Laksumunage
yeah.
yeah.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
it is a japapa.
it is a japapa.
Ashwin Laksumunage
task
task
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
oh yes.
oh yes.
Ashwin Laksumunage
to sweep editor.
to sweep editor.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
so that we are not touching. but whereas the cigarette workers and septic tank cleaners, it is a very hazardous job.
so that we are not touching. but whereas the cigarette workers and septic tank cleaners, it is a very hazardous job.
Slavoj Žižek
no.
no.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
and there also the major, the dalits only is involved that we are touching. we are touching. but when it comes to the number one the manual scavengers, where we are exactly we are standing. we are living, we are working. qué.
and there also the major, the dalits only is involved that we are touching. we are touching. but when it comes to the number one the manual scavengers, where we are exactly we are standing. we are living, we are working. qué.
Slavoj Žižek
when you say manual, you mean it literally manual.
when you say manual, you mean it literally manual.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
i will show the photo. yes.
i will show the photo. yes.
Slavoj Žižek
what i want.
what i want.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
yeah. now once you come to this this is called the individual dryilateral. so in that individual dry, i have the video clipping, i will show that also. so there the women has to go into the toilet. the toilet in the sense it is a very small thing. so inside they have to clean the sheet like this and they have to carry like this the second photo.
yeah. now once you come to this this is called the individual dryilateral. so in that individual dry, i have the video clipping, i will show that also. so there the women has to go into the toilet. the toilet in the sense it is a very small thing. so inside they have to clean the sheet like this and they have to carry like this the second photo.
Slavoj Žižek
take out the
take out the
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
she's taking no with the metallic piece or the broom?. she is also carrying the broom on her hand.
she's taking no with the metallic piece or the broom?. she is also carrying the broom on her hand.
Slavoj Žižek
good.
good.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
and the down to the basket, there is the broom.
and the down to the basket, there is the broom.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah.
yeah.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
so a broom, so that with the broom she will take it into the basket and she will carry that to the dumping outside the house. sometimes it is on the top of the house. sometimes the down, sometimes out there is the house, it is a different models. when it comes to this is the way they bring the shit to out. the next when it comes to the it is a community dry letter. so, when you come to this first individual dry lat, it is in individual houses. they have this kind of the toilets. so there the people will go, the scavengers, they will clean the toilet.
so a broom, so that with the broom she will take it into the basket and she will carry that to the dumping outside the house. sometimes it is on the top of the house. sometimes the down, sometimes out there is the house, it is a different models. when it comes to this is the way they bring the shit to out. the next when it comes to the it is a community dry letter. so, when you come to this first individual dry lat, it is in individual houses. they have this kind of the toilets. so there the people will go, the scavengers, they will clean the toilet.
Bezwada Wilson
normally houses having one or two toilets with one or two seats.
normally houses having one or two toilets with one or two seats.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah.
yeah.
Bezwada Wilson
and then this women will go and she collect the shit with a broom or a.
and then this women will go and she collect the shit with a broom or a.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
. then when it comes to the community drylatin, it is a totally. canst snap dead? maintaining and managed by the government. it is the community dry. so the government of local governments, quasi governmentsments, municipalities, they maintain this, they employ the scavengers. i'm not using the previously the word the scavenger, we use the word because it is a very derogatory. we use the s karmucharis for your understanding i am using the word the yeah. so here the women has to go. collect the fecal matters like this the she and she has to come out and the throw into the dumping ads. and when it comes to the track, railway track, which you are willing to see, any anywhere in this country once the train moves the people when they use the toilet somebody has to go literally like this and they have to clean the shit and when it comes to the septic tank, though you have converted your toilet individual house into the flush out which is connected to the septic tank close to your house. when it gets full once in a year or three years or one year, it depends on the size of the family and. so somebody has to go in the picture too you can see there is inside there is a person yes and the further picture one is it is when it gets filled like this. the person has to go inside. and they have to lift everything. and in some instances they have to show the bottom of the septic debt. by taking some cloth and showing to the wanderner. and proving that i have cleaned until the end bottom. so that is the job they have to do. and when it comes to the, this is the saver light. so this is connected to the main silver lines, even including the delhi.
. then when it comes to the community drylatin, it is a totally. canst snap dead? maintaining and managed by the government. it is the community dry. so the government of local governments, quasi governmentsments, municipalities, they maintain this, they employ the scavengers. i'm not using the previously the word the scavenger, we use the word because it is a very derogatory. we use the s karmucharis for your understanding i am using the word the yeah. so here the women has to go. collect the fecal matters like this the she and she has to come out and the throw into the dumping ads. and when it comes to the track, railway track, which you are willing to see, any anywhere in this country once the train moves the people when they use the toilet somebody has to go literally like this and they have to clean the shit and when it comes to the septic tank, though you have converted your toilet individual house into the flush out which is connected to the septic tank close to your house. when it gets full once in a year or three years or one year, it depends on the size of the family and. so somebody has to go in the picture too you can see there is inside there is a person yes and the further picture one is it is when it gets filled like this. the person has to go inside. and they have to lift everything. and in some instances they have to show the bottom of the septic debt. by taking some cloth and showing to the wanderner. and proving that i have cleaned until the end bottom. so that is the job they have to do. and when it comes to the, this is the saver light. so this is connected to the main silver lines, even including the delhi.
Ashwin Laksumunage
ding.
ding.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
nobody is maintaining it as a proper and littering and all you know that in india it is and plastic covers, cloth and everything. so it gets stuck at the chocolate then when it gets choked, then people have to go inside and they have to clean like this. the second photo you can see. so these are the kind of the, we have no data about the people, how many people died like this. and we have the data about the road accidents.
nobody is maintaining it as a proper and littering and all you know that in india it is and plastic covers, cloth and everything. so it gets stuck at the chocolate then when it gets choked, then people have to go inside and they have to clean like this. the second photo you can see. so these are the kind of the, we have no data about the people, how many people died like this. and we have the data about the road accidents.
Slavoj Žižek
for for what reason for example.
for for what reason for example.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
because when they open this and go inside. and because methane the gas, because of this shit and accumulated. that gas really makes so much of a... i'm glad.
because when they open this and go inside. and because methane the gas, because of this shit and accumulated. that gas really makes so much of a... i'm glad.
Slavoj Žižek
i.
i.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
so the people die and the second person, whoever is the standing outside. he will see that when he is drowning in, he will give his a hand and that second. it is a normal very general story. at least two or three people will die. then the people again somebody will come after some time and they will take it. and no compensation, nothing will be there and there is no record for the deaths in this country so far. at road accident you have the data. but for this we don't have. then when it comes to the ideological basis of to understand this iso so far i have told you all these things. when i come to just to show like this. for here, they will be getting very 10 to 20 rupees or something from individual house per month and. when it comes to here, they may be getting 2000 or something per month from the municipality. when it comes to this is also 3, 4, 5, 6 or ten thousand or whatever. indian railways. when it comes to here it may be 100,000 to clean or 150500 or something. to clean hole this thing. and when it comes to they may be permanent employees temporary employees contract labor and it different this thing. but i don't want to get into that problem. even if they are getting one lakh to clean one toilet, human beings should not clean other shit.
so the people die and the second person, whoever is the standing outside. he will see that when he is drowning in, he will give his a hand and that second. it is a normal very general story. at least two or three people will die. then the people again somebody will come after some time and they will take it. and no compensation, nothing will be there and there is no record for the deaths in this country so far. at road accident you have the data. but for this we don't have. then when it comes to the ideological basis of to understand this iso so far i have told you all these things. when i come to just to show like this. for here, they will be getting very 10 to 20 rupees or something from individual house per month and. when it comes to here, they may be getting 2000 or something per month from the municipality. when it comes to this is also 3, 4, 5, 6 or ten thousand or whatever. indian railways. when it comes to here it may be 100,000 to clean or 150500 or something. to clean hole this thing. and when it comes to they may be permanent employees temporary employees contract labor and it different this thing. but i don't want to get into that problem. even if they are getting one lakh to clean one toilet, human beings should not clean other shit.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah.
yeah.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
that is our ideological basis. so we are not getting into the problem of the economics here at all. and so far what happened in india, there are so many labor movements. they started actually struggling for the betterment of the community. we are not doubting their intentions. what we are doubting is we can't ask somebody to actually to provide the safety gear for. this kind of the jobs. you ask the gloves, you ask the mask, you ask the shoes, but you never said, come out of this. you say that you give the better wages, they are getting the less wages. you provide the good education for their children. you say that you have to provide the eight hours the water supply because after cleaning they have to take bath. which means what? they have to clean my ship. for that i will pay all these things, the privileges like. so never nobody said. you have to stop this. we should not allow human beings to do like this. so in that ideology we have brought very clear, it is an inhuman practice it should get end one day. there is no again prolonging on that. so when it comes to this, we say that it is a caste based and it is also as discrimin based on the work and descent. because centuries together in this country, even my parents they were the scavengers. my brother and my sister, they were scavengers. when i approached the employment exchange in this country after my studies, they also enrolled my name to the scavenging job.
that is our ideological basis. so we are not getting into the problem of the economics here at all. and so far what happened in india, there are so many labor movements. they started actually struggling for the betterment of the community. we are not doubting their intentions. what we are doubting is we can't ask somebody to actually to provide the safety gear for. this kind of the jobs. you ask the gloves, you ask the mask, you ask the shoes, but you never said, come out of this. you say that you give the better wages, they are getting the less wages. you provide the good education for their children. you say that you have to provide the eight hours the water supply because after cleaning they have to take bath. which means what? they have to clean my ship. for that i will pay all these things, the privileges like. so never nobody said. you have to stop this. we should not allow human beings to do like this. so in that ideology we have brought very clear, it is an inhuman practice it should get end one day. there is no again prolonging on that. so when it comes to this, we say that it is a caste based and it is also as discrimin based on the work and descent. because centuries together in this country, even my parents they were the scavengers. my brother and my sister, they were scavengers. when i approached the employment exchange in this country after my studies, they also enrolled my name to the scavenging job.
Ashwin Laksumunage
the thing is, i think we have to explain a bit here. if you are the son or a daughter of a... person involved in this job and you go and you say you have done a graduation you have done college you have done a phd and then you still go and apply for a job they'll say since you are the son of this person this job is ready for you. take it.
the thing is, i think we have to explain a bit here. if you are the son or a daughter of a... person involved in this job and you go and you say you have done a graduation you have done college you have done a phd and then you still go and apply for a job they'll say since you are the son of this person this job is ready for you. take it.
Slavoj Žižek
under.
under.
Ashwin Laksumunage
there's almost what you call affirmative action quota there, saying it's only your job, only you will do it. nobody will fight for the job.
there's almost what you call affirmative action quota there, saying it's only your job, only you will do it. nobody will fight for the job.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
actually, here i want to tell you one more thing before going into the more details because there is a time also. one thing what i can mention here is this extreme manifestation of the caste. how a simple very example. i can take is i can take it from my own experience, my brother. so when i approach the employment exchange for the job. so they said that this is the job. how they have said. because my name my name is bezwada wilson. they know that second. the location where i live. it is a sweers's colony. mariko compost post m goldfields. so sweepers means normally sweeper sons will do the sweeping. because of that, the employment people, they have written and they have thrown the card out. then i asked my brother, what for they have written? my brother said they have written, he is good person, he has written. and i said, no, he's good, i am also good, you are good, but what for he has written? you tell me. he said, i don't know exactly. then we started looking it is a kind of a symbol. in the sense the roman letters roman letters because it is the code language so they have the one for the one job, two for the some job, three for like that. it is a 13 or 14. 10 like this x, 1 v or something. that is the number. i said, what is this? then they said, my brother said, don't ask no problem, he will get angry. i said, no, no, i will ask him. sir, what for my name is endon. he said, do don't you don't know. what for we have ended? i said, i don't know. and this you jump. i said, what is my job? he said, for your job only we have written and he asked my brother to explain to him. and he watched this then. then my brother has taken me out. distance to that person and he started explaining to me what for actually they end? he has not said. he started telling me. if you enroll for this, how easily you will get the job first. once you get the job, is there any possibility of the changing ever? after later. so better you come through this, you will get the job so easily like. i was shocked actually that day. that day, first time i have experienced the cast. i never experienced the caste from the non-dalit or anybody. i have seen that, but that day i never experienced, i never felt it is a curse. now i understand that was the actual my first experience of the task. how it is my own brother who has left his studies to continue my studies because fifthth standard i dropped my studies. various reasons. we can't go beyond our college, school and fifth fourth i completed, fifth i discontinued my studies. my brother came and he stayed with me in the hostel. in some place. he used to cook and he used to take me literally. because i don't want to go to school. he used to leave me in the school. while coming again he used to pick me and again afternoon he will drop me in the school. his brother sacrifices his own
actually, here i want to tell you one more thing before going into the more details because there is a time also. one thing what i can mention here is this extreme manifestation of the caste. how a simple very example. i can take is i can take it from my own experience, my brother. so when i approach the employment exchange for the job. so they said that this is the job. how they have said. because my name my name is bezwada wilson. they know that second. the location where i live. it is a sweers's colony. mariko compost post m goldfields. so sweepers means normally sweeper sons will do the sweeping. because of that, the employment people, they have written and they have thrown the card out. then i asked my brother, what for they have written? my brother said they have written, he is good person, he has written. and i said, no, he's good, i am also good, you are good, but what for he has written? you tell me. he said, i don't know exactly. then we started looking it is a kind of a symbol. in the sense the roman letters roman letters because it is the code language so they have the one for the one job, two for the some job, three for like that. it is a 13 or 14. 10 like this x, 1 v or something. that is the number. i said, what is this? then they said, my brother said, don't ask no problem, he will get angry. i said, no, no, i will ask him. sir, what for my name is endon. he said, do don't you don't know. what for we have ended? i said, i don't know. and this you jump. i said, what is my job? he said, for your job only we have written and he asked my brother to explain to him. and he watched this then. then my brother has taken me out. distance to that person and he started explaining to me what for actually they end? he has not said. he started telling me. if you enroll for this, how easily you will get the job first. once you get the job, is there any possibility of the changing ever? after later. so better you come through this, you will get the job so easily like. i was shocked actually that day. that day, first time i have experienced the cast. i never experienced the caste from the non-dalit or anybody. i have seen that, but that day i never experienced, i never felt it is a curse. now i understand that was the actual my first experience of the task. how it is my own brother who has left his studies to continue my studies because fifthth standard i dropped my studies. various reasons. we can't go beyond our college, school and fifth fourth i completed, fifth i discontinued my studies. my brother came and he stayed with me in the hostel. in some place. he used to cook and he used to take me literally. because i don't want to go to school. he used to leave me in the school. while coming again he used to pick me and again afternoon he will drop me in the school. his brother sacrifices his own
Ashwin Laksumunage
yeah, yeah.
yeah, yeah.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
light.
light.
Ashwin Laksumunage
fill
fill
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
to give me what the good.
to give me what the good.
Ashwin Laksumunage
and finally for what? to make him a sweeper., i got.
and finally for what? to make him a sweeper., i got.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
when it comes to me, my brother is telling me, it is don't unnecessarily argue here. don't make any noise here. and he said it is okay. when my brother said it is okay, it was totally i lost. that is my struggle here. people can't understand what is caste, it is dalit dalit dal, all these ideological. no, it is not. the caste is in the mind of each and everybody who born in this country. somewhere we, my own brother who has really sacrificed himself, he is coming and telling me, you do this. then i said, it is not. it's an internal.
when it comes to me, my brother is telling me, it is don't unnecessarily argue here. don't make any noise here. and he said it is okay. when my brother said it is okay, it was totally i lost. that is my struggle here. people can't understand what is caste, it is dalit dalit dal, all these ideological. no, it is not. the caste is in the mind of each and everybody who born in this country. somewhere we, my own brother who has really sacrificed himself, he is coming and telling me, you do this. then i said, it is not. it's an internal.
Ashwin Laksumunage
yeah, yeah, the logic.
yeah, yeah, the logic.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
so i felt it is not acceptable to me. i said, no, i can't. and he said, no, no, no, you don't make noise. i said, no, no, no. just wait. you tell me, this is what i want to do. he said, no, i am not saying, but now you accept. i said i will not accept. and he said, no, no, no, you have to accept, you have to look. our family and all other things, everything. i said whatever reason, i will do whatever you want to. but i will not do this. he said, no, you don't get anything. then i just, then. make it to the two pieces and the throat i said if it is available i can't accept this so what i want to say here to you as a person from the outside india. the caste we want to look where it is untouchables. how it is untouchable? show me. it is everywhere. it is everywhere. we can't exactly when it comes to the conscious person. who is actually dealing with the cost. they can understand everywhere when the look. you see that they are discriminating us. when they talk, you can understand. when they use the language, you can understand. so when it started just like this, when it comes to my mind, i just felt better to inform you how it works. and the how we can make this mainstreaming the caste to society and all it is the one very is this thing. so we manage as with you we also discussed, we majorly made this, it is a door of fourfold oppression. because normally people will say that it is an occupation. we can't come out of this. it is we are getting the income, we can't. but it is not true. the actual problem is it is the cost base.
so i felt it is not acceptable to me. i said, no, i can't. and he said, no, no, no, you don't make noise. i said, no, no, no. just wait. you tell me, this is what i want to do. he said, no, i am not saying, but now you accept. i said i will not accept. and he said, no, no, no, you have to accept, you have to look. our family and all other things, everything. i said whatever reason, i will do whatever you want to. but i will not do this. he said, no, you don't get anything. then i just, then. make it to the two pieces and the throat i said if it is available i can't accept this so what i want to say here to you as a person from the outside india. the caste we want to look where it is untouchables. how it is untouchable? show me. it is everywhere. it is everywhere. we can't exactly when it comes to the conscious person. who is actually dealing with the cost. they can understand everywhere when the look. you see that they are discriminating us. when they talk, you can understand. when they use the language, you can understand. so when it started just like this, when it comes to my mind, i just felt better to inform you how it works. and the how we can make this mainstreaming the caste to society and all it is the one very is this thing. so we manage as with you we also discussed, we majorly made this, it is a door of fourfold oppression. because normally people will say that it is an occupation. we can't come out of this. it is we are getting the income, we can't. but it is not true. the actual problem is it is the cost base.
Ashwin Laksumunage
mm-hmm
mm-hmm
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
10% scavengers are the si karmuchis in this country are dalits, untouchables. all. and within that, 80% are women. eight percent are women, when it comes to the haryaryana, punjab and rajasthan, it is almost 95%. so this patriarchy, how it works within the caste. and within the cast there are the subcasts.
10% scavengers are the si karmuchis in this country are dalits, untouchables. all. and within that, 80% are women. eight percent are women, when it comes to the haryaryana, punjab and rajasthan, it is almost 95%. so this patriarchy, how it works within the caste. and within the cast there are the subcasts.
Ashwin Laksumunage
yep
yep
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
so the particular subcast people only is engaged in this, not all cast. so this is actually in the ladder of this cast system. it is the topmost button. ne yet. when you look, who will be there, there will be the first. from the down is the women. the next we new look. subcaste, subgroup after dalis. then it goes to the dalits, then it goes to the man dalits like this, the ladder. so it is a very difficult people to understand the actual ideology of the scavenging actually. if you look from through the lens of the caste and the gender, it is very simple to come out of this. if you don't look from this lens and if you want to do other things, anything, there is no actually the liberation will not. once i started understanding from the caste and the gender, it has become so easy. actually, for a few years, for me it was just a subgroup. my own community. then later i understand it is the wider caste. then later i understand it is the untouchability. because i don't know what is untouchability. so untensibility andal, then we started reading about the baba saambbedkar. then only actually i got into the actual struggle. how we can come out of, what are the ways, why it has became? and i never actually, what i can say, i never understood why our own people are not telling. my brother he never has not revealed out that he is a scavenger and he got a marry. my sister-in-law doesn't know that what work he was doing. so the community also is maintaining. the same internalization of this k system and they manifest that in different ways. so it continues like. then the whole community when it is't so silent. not even telling how. then where is the actual we can fight? against the any practice. there we got into more. i found it. first time when i seen the thailand. and i feel it is so bad. i can't tolerate that. and i have thrown that person out. and you can see that in the india's thinking there is a book. there the first chapter Geeta Ramaswamy has written about that incident. she has written that you can read well and it is a pattern. so i have thrown them out. and i asked them to stomp. but they said very difficult to stop. then later it is a very great struggle we have come out of. it is a very early, for me, it is my life turning point. so the human being exactly going into the pit and taking the shit and down and like a playing the child playing with the mud. i felt it is not acceptable for me at all. i felt we have to do something for this. then there is the actual the time then when i went and i told the community the very progressive people, very educated they said that don't make this more noise. we are doing secretly. so don't make this noise. it was more shock. actually, the main pain is the scavenging, literally seeing my eyes. then second is when goes and ask our own neighbors and very progressive, very progressive people, they said, please keep quiet, don't unnecessarily. then i went to the to some leaders. they said, we know this is not the new life. when everybody said it is...
so the particular subcast people only is engaged in this, not all cast. so this is actually in the ladder of this cast system. it is the topmost button. ne yet. when you look, who will be there, there will be the first. from the down is the women. the next we new look. subcaste, subgroup after dalis. then it goes to the dalits, then it goes to the man dalits like this, the ladder. so it is a very difficult people to understand the actual ideology of the scavenging actually. if you look from through the lens of the caste and the gender, it is very simple to come out of this. if you don't look from this lens and if you want to do other things, anything, there is no actually the liberation will not. once i started understanding from the caste and the gender, it has become so easy. actually, for a few years, for me it was just a subgroup. my own community. then later i understand it is the wider caste. then later i understand it is the untouchability. because i don't know what is untouchability. so untensibility andal, then we started reading about the baba saambbedkar. then only actually i got into the actual struggle. how we can come out of, what are the ways, why it has became? and i never actually, what i can say, i never understood why our own people are not telling. my brother he never has not revealed out that he is a scavenger and he got a marry. my sister-in-law doesn't know that what work he was doing. so the community also is maintaining. the same internalization of this k system and they manifest that in different ways. so it continues like. then the whole community when it is't so silent. not even telling how. then where is the actual we can fight? against the any practice. there we got into more. i found it. first time when i seen the thailand. and i feel it is so bad. i can't tolerate that. and i have thrown that person out. and you can see that in the india's thinking there is a book. there the first chapter Geeta Ramaswamy has written about that incident. she has written that you can read well and it is a pattern. so i have thrown them out. and i asked them to stomp. but they said very difficult to stop. then later it is a very great struggle we have come out of. it is a very early, for me, it is my life turning point. so the human being exactly going into the pit and taking the shit and down and like a playing the child playing with the mud. i felt it is not acceptable for me at all. i felt we have to do something for this. then there is the actual the time then when i went and i told the community the very progressive people, very educated they said that don't make this more noise. we are doing secretly. so don't make this noise. it was more shock. actually, the main pain is the scavenging, literally seeing my eyes. then second is when goes and ask our own neighbors and very progressive, very progressive people, they said, please keep quiet, don't unnecessarily. then i went to the to some leaders. they said, we know this is not the new life. when everybody said it is...
Ashwin Laksumunage
you're talking about dal leaders or?
you're talking about dal leaders or?
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
dalith leaders. i am talking about the community and dalith leaders, friends, my own family.
dalith leaders. i am talking about the community and dalith leaders, friends, my own family.
Ashwin Laksumunage
give a sense of the time when did it happen.
give a sense of the time when did it happen.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
it happened in 1984, 86, 87, 88.
it happened in 1984, 86, 87, 88.
Ashwin Laksumunage
and when does the abolition of manuals come
and when does the abolition of manuals come
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
93. desca.
93. desca.
Ashwin Laksumunage
see, the abolition of manual scavenging act happens only in 93.
see, the abolition of manual scavenging act happens only in 93.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
mm.
mm.
Ashwin Laksumunage
till 93, that is close to...
till 93, that is close to...
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
legalally.
legalally.
Ashwin Laksumunage
close to 50 years after independence, india's independence. it was not legal, it was not illegal, it was happening and people kept gr. one of the reasons for the act to come is
close to 50 years after independence, india's independence. it was not legal, it was not illegal, it was happening and people kept gr. one of the reasons for the act to come is
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
mil
mil
Ashwin Laksumunage
petitioning. wilson's letters to the prime minister, to the president, the reason why the law came. is because they took it up.
petitioning. wilson's letters to the prime minister, to the president, the reason why the law came. is because they took it up.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
so what we started, just we then i went to again back to the people who are the people working as a scavengers. i started telling them they are not coming. so i felt very difficult actually to come. then that is the time i felt we have to do something. and the very small group of the people started emerging.
so what we started, just we then i went to again back to the people who are the people working as a scavengers. i started telling them they are not coming. so i felt very difficult actually to come. then that is the time i felt we have to do something. and the very small group of the people started emerging.
Ashwin Laksumunage
mm
mm
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
coming close, discussing at least listening to us and people started telling that they are getting the wages like i so really that is the time i was bit radical. i used to argue with them to the collector and all. i will give you one like you go and clean the shit like. he said, what do you mean like? said they used to say, we are paying the salary, why you are coming and disturbing life? so in some many places they have chased out. when we went and very small group, then it became a one, two, three people like to discuss, to think about this like. then it emerged just like that. and finally what we felt is we have to do something. then i have only one hope is actually when we go back not as an academicians, not as an leaders, not as an trade unionist or anybody. again as a safi karmuchari, the women who has actually told the truth. i asked her, why are you doing and all this like a researcher? as a journalist like so many things. then one day she has told me very clearly, do you feel that i am enjoying by cleaning other shit? why are you coming and repeatedly asking me that unnecessary this question?
coming close, discussing at least listening to us and people started telling that they are getting the wages like i so really that is the time i was bit radical. i used to argue with them to the collector and all. i will give you one like you go and clean the shit like. he said, what do you mean like? said they used to say, we are paying the salary, why you are coming and disturbing life? so in some many places they have chased out. when we went and very small group, then it became a one, two, three people like to discuss, to think about this like. then it emerged just like that. and finally what we felt is we have to do something. then i have only one hope is actually when we go back not as an academicians, not as an leaders, not as an trade unionist or anybody. again as a safi karmuchari, the women who has actually told the truth. i asked her, why are you doing and all this like a researcher? as a journalist like so many things. then one day she has told me very clearly, do you feel that i am enjoying by cleaning other shit? why are you coming and repeatedly asking me that unnecessary this question?
Ashwin Laksumunage
mm.
mm.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
how can any human being can enjoy by cleaning the ship? not mano. i got the realization. she's was the actual pitcham. so it was my realization. so we feel that they are okay with that. they don't want to come out of that. for why they don't want to come out is the various reasons. we never looked into the reasons. we always think that they are accepted they are doing. so she has told me, nobody will. enjoy or accept this. but for the various reasons only we are into this. then my hope started. okay, if it is not people are not enjoying this, they will come out of this. maybe today, tomorrow, day after tomorrow or may not be in this century after 200 centuries. but let me start against this like. then amazing is the same women. they started organizing themselves. that is the actual truth of the whole movement. though women started. actual i you looked into the cast angle. when anurha has started interacting with this movement. 15 years before. then we started looking into the lens of the gender. before that, only cast lens. then when we started wearing the gender lens, these two lens are very crystal clear, you can look into the. well. my actual emphasize today is these two lens when you wear only, you can understand the very clear clarity about the whole issue. you can understand the economics, you can understand the logic, you can see the rationality, you can see that behind whatever the struggle is going and you can also recognize the people's resilience. if you don't wear this... lens. we totally, we ignore. we really. so there we, as a safi karmacharya yandolan, caste and gender, these two lanes we have taken.
how can any human being can enjoy by cleaning the ship? not mano. i got the realization. she's was the actual pitcham. so it was my realization. so we feel that they are okay with that. they don't want to come out of that. for why they don't want to come out is the various reasons. we never looked into the reasons. we always think that they are accepted they are doing. so she has told me, nobody will. enjoy or accept this. but for the various reasons only we are into this. then my hope started. okay, if it is not people are not enjoying this, they will come out of this. maybe today, tomorrow, day after tomorrow or may not be in this century after 200 centuries. but let me start against this like. then amazing is the same women. they started organizing themselves. that is the actual truth of the whole movement. though women started. actual i you looked into the cast angle. when anurha has started interacting with this movement. 15 years before. then we started looking into the lens of the gender. before that, only cast lens. then when we started wearing the gender lens, these two lens are very crystal clear, you can look into the. well. my actual emphasize today is these two lens when you wear only, you can understand the very clear clarity about the whole issue. you can understand the economics, you can understand the logic, you can see the rationality, you can see that behind whatever the struggle is going and you can also recognize the people's resilience. if you don't wear this... lens. we totally, we ignore. we really. so there we, as a safi karmacharya yandolan, caste and gender, these two lanes we have taken.
Bezwada Wilson
one went after nine and a. to that you are the first person who came and raise this issue with me. i'm into this work since 30 years. i mean, she gave a lot of abuses to her own family members and her husband and all the. no one from my family asked so far that whether i'm happy in doing this. whether i'm okay, happy, whether i'm okay engaging in this world. you are the first person you came, you are like my real son. you have come from different area, you are not related to me, but you are my son now. that was a very emotional kind of statement he gave. even some last year also she is reiterating that.
one went after nine and a. to that you are the first person who came and raise this issue with me. i'm into this work since 30 years. i mean, she gave a lot of abuses to her own family members and her husband and all the. no one from my family asked so far that whether i'm happy in doing this. whether i'm okay, happy, whether i'm okay engaging in this world. you are the first person you came, you are like my real son. you have come from different area, you are not related to me, but you are my son now. that was a very emotional kind of statement he gave. even some last year also she is reiterating that.
Ashwin Laksumunage
she came to now, wilson, can you tell us, this is one of the first women who quit the job because wilson went and told her, why what is narayanama doing? so... she stopped after 30 years of work.
she came to now, wilson, can you tell us, this is one of the first women who quit the job because wilson went and told her, why what is narayanama doing? so... she stopped after 30 years of work.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
she stopped doing it. now what do you do now to make a living? so he's going to tell you yes now when it comes to the 1993 act again it has come and we have violated the issue in my hometown where we were working with them. and there they said the manning authorities also ignoring denying the facts. denial mode is the it is the very very easiest the first important thing which happens in this country. you say anything, they say no, it is not. simple. then our legal framework also, it is the burden on the person who is a complaint to prove that. our framework says it is your burden, you have to prove that how actually it is happening. so they never ask or they don't have any other authority. to actually prosecute or anything. so that is the thing, it is and we made that and the government again the gold mining township. they recognized our struggle and they made as a big event like that. and we made that as an articles in the many newspapers. many newspapers covered that photographic evidence as everything. and the newspaper clippings we have sent to the parliament and it was parliament also. very big discussion on that. then the karnataka was the time i was from the karnataka. so that was the government was the Janata Dal and here is the other governments like two different governments. then during that time what they felt is they want to actually challenge that opposite governments, criticize that
she stopped doing it. now what do you do now to make a living? so he's going to tell you yes now when it comes to the 1993 act again it has come and we have violated the issue in my hometown where we were working with them. and there they said the manning authorities also ignoring denying the facts. denial mode is the it is the very very easiest the first important thing which happens in this country. you say anything, they say no, it is not. simple. then our legal framework also, it is the burden on the person who is a complaint to prove that. our framework says it is your burden, you have to prove that how actually it is happening. so they never ask or they don't have any other authority. to actually prosecute or anything. so that is the thing, it is and we made that and the government again the gold mining township. they recognized our struggle and they made as a big event like that. and we made that as an articles in the many newspapers. many newspapers covered that photographic evidence as everything. and the newspaper clippings we have sent to the parliament and it was parliament also. very big discussion on that. then the karnataka was the time i was from the karnataka. so that was the government was the Janata Dal and here is the other governments like two different governments. then during that time what they felt is they want to actually challenge that opposite governments, criticize that
Ashwin Laksumunage
yeah.
yeah.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
opposition government so they highlighted here then their house sent a kind of a group of the ministers, eight ministers to see this practice because this gold mining township belongs to the center government. so they have turned back into this is a u, though it is in the karnataka light. so, this political this thing also helped us to actually to enact this 1993 act. in 1990 it is the year of the centenary year of the baba sahebedkar. yeah
opposition government so they highlighted here then their house sent a kind of a group of the ministers, eight ministers to see this practice because this gold mining township belongs to the center government. so they have turned back into this is a u, though it is in the karnataka light. so, this political this thing also helped us to actually to enact this 1993 act. in 1990 it is the year of the centenary year of the baba sahebedkar. yeah
Ashwin Laksumunage
91 ambbedkar's 100 years was celebrated so there was a great revival of interest in these issues. riding that wave and the effort to make the act was also made during the V.P. Singh government and then it culminated in 1993 after he left but he constituted during the 1991 centenary year. there was some heat. i getting bel up on this.
91 ambbedkar's 100 years was celebrated so there was a great revival of interest in these issues. riding that wave and the effort to make the act was also made during the V.P. Singh government and then it culminated in 1993 after he left but he constituted during the 1991 centenary year. there was some heat. i getting bel up on this.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
film if you want.
film if you want.
Ashwin Laksumunage
your.
your.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
you got ten minutes.
you got ten minutes.
Ashwin Laksumunage
even now how much the government figures is 6.76 and your figure is 1.2 million million. 1.2 million people, but now we will come that also will come at least a million people are still involved. he says at least a million people are still involved in mental chemistry.
even now how much the government figures is 6.76 and your figure is 1.2 million million. 1.2 million people, but now we will come that also will come at least a million people are still involved. he says at least a million people are still involved in mental chemistry.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
yeah. see, another thing is when the 1993 act has come, we felt that definitely the act will function very well and they will do something good for us. and later in 90s, india also has become a part of the whole globalization and so many things have happened and new economic policy and modernization all these things and this knowledge and all other things we felt india has also become knowledge hub by so many and Infosys and these companies has grown so well. we felt definitely this kind of a technology will transfer to the scavenging also. it never happened. that is the pain actually. so we felt this modernization, globalization, whatever these things. may not be helping actually this level. so we felt it has to come from again the bottom. the bottom or whatever level, the people. who are struggling like this? then when it comes to the as a ska, we 95, 96 we started this and our thing is very clear. community awareness, i told you that.
yeah. see, another thing is when the 1993 act has come, we felt that definitely the act will function very well and they will do something good for us. and later in 90s, india also has become a part of the whole globalization and so many things have happened and new economic policy and modernization all these things and this knowledge and all other things we felt india has also become knowledge hub by so many and Infosys and these companies has grown so well. we felt definitely this kind of a technology will transfer to the scavenging also. it never happened. that is the pain actually. so we felt this modernization, globalization, whatever these things. may not be helping actually this level. so we felt it has to come from again the bottom. the bottom or whatever level, the people. who are struggling like this? then when it comes to the as a ska, we 95, 96 we started this and our thing is very clear. community awareness, i told you that.
Ashwin Laksumunage
yeah.
yeah.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
that silence never opened, never broken. so, as a safi karmacharya amolan, our 10 years struggle has brought the people, they are the people all from the community. they come to the delhi. and they started singing the songs on how it is the exploitation. explain how it takes place. say started just voicing out. so all these days actually they even babai bedgar, his first magazine is Mooknayak. so because there is no people is voicing out our problems. so the community actually, they have come out. this is the kind of a tremendous change. in indian society. the most discriminated communities has come together and they started coming against the practice to the streets. instead of when we go to the school in our childhood, people used to say that you are the bungie or scavenger or something. we used to keep our head down. with the shame. instead of that, we have come out. saying that yes, of course. what is the problem? we want to come out of this. it is not your business. if you want to come and join hands with us to come out of this problem of our own, you join hands. otherwise you don't come to us. so when they started coming, the moment has taken the momentum. then when it comes to the raising the voice like this on the streets. it. the the manual scavenging. this is then remarkable in indian society. then when it comes to the delhi, this is the Jantar Mantar. and we called across the country all the safi karmachari's representatives, we had the countdown, that is the thing. we made a plan and we felt we can't just prolong this kind of activities forever.
that silence never opened, never broken. so, as a safi karmacharya amolan, our 10 years struggle has brought the people, they are the people all from the community. they come to the delhi. and they started singing the songs on how it is the exploitation. explain how it takes place. say started just voicing out. so all these days actually they even babai bedgar, his first magazine is Mooknayak. so because there is no people is voicing out our problems. so the community actually, they have come out. this is the kind of a tremendous change. in indian society. the most discriminated communities has come together and they started coming against the practice to the streets. instead of when we go to the school in our childhood, people used to say that you are the bungie or scavenger or something. we used to keep our head down. with the shame. instead of that, we have come out. saying that yes, of course. what is the problem? we want to come out of this. it is not your business. if you want to come and join hands with us to come out of this problem of our own, you join hands. otherwise you don't come to us. so when they started coming, the moment has taken the momentum. then when it comes to the raising the voice like this on the streets. it. the the manual scavenging. this is then remarkable in indian society. then when it comes to the delhi, this is the Jantar Mantar. and we called across the country all the safi karmachari's representatives, we had the countdown, that is the thing. we made a plan and we felt we can't just prolong this kind of activities forever.
Bezwada Wilson
mm-h
mm-h
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
we have done so far whatever is possible. the community is ready to leave this. the problem is indian society is not accepting their liberation. they feel that they are fit to do that. so for that, we need to have the more sensitization of the indian society. so better we can have the national consultation. so we call the civil society representatives, we call the safi katurists who are actually working. and we called the people who left the job and the representatives of the safai karmacharyaana together we had the meeting planning. so we felt very clearly. in pandit nehru. he said that when india getting just before getting the independence, he said we must have the planning. off for our own country.
we have done so far whatever is possible. the community is ready to leave this. the problem is indian society is not accepting their liberation. they feel that they are fit to do that. so for that, we need to have the more sensitization of the indian society. so better we can have the national consultation. so we call the civil society representatives, we call the safi katurists who are actually working. and we called the people who left the job and the representatives of the safai karmacharyaana together we had the meeting planning. so we felt very clearly. in pandit nehru. he said that when india getting just before getting the independence, he said we must have the planning. off for our own country.
Ashwin Laksumunage
mm
mm
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
we must have the five-year plan. otherwise we can't develop. he has taken the socialist model. so five-year plan life. and there he has given a speech, very remarkable words are there. he said, these britishers are the colonials. they don't have any pakka plan for us, time-bound action plans because they always feel that we are the foreigners for them. so they are less concerned about our own future and the progress. we, the people. we have to think about our own progress and any kind of the development. then when i'm reading that, it has struck. even in the indian society, may be feeling that this saf scavengers are the somebody foreigners like. may not be accepting as an indians like we the people the same words the scavengers or the safai karmacharis, we must have a deadline to end this practice. if indian government from 1993 they said, 95 they are going to eradicate. they never did. then they said 200,000. nothing happened. 2002 they said. it has not happened. 2003 they said no, never happened. 2003 we went to the supreme court. we filed the case in the supreme court as a public interest litigation. then the supreme court said it is not there. then we said that we submitted some documents. then they have issued the notice to all the state governments. state governments in the response to the petition, they said just deny it. there is no manual scavenging. there is no drylet. i will show that all the documents.
we must have the five-year plan. otherwise we can't develop. he has taken the socialist model. so five-year plan life. and there he has given a speech, very remarkable words are there. he said, these britishers are the colonials. they don't have any pakka plan for us, time-bound action plans because they always feel that we are the foreigners for them. so they are less concerned about our own future and the progress. we, the people. we have to think about our own progress and any kind of the development. then when i'm reading that, it has struck. even in the indian society, may be feeling that this saf scavengers are the somebody foreigners like. may not be accepting as an indians like we the people the same words the scavengers or the safai karmacharis, we must have a deadline to end this practice. if indian government from 1993 they said, 95 they are going to eradicate. they never did. then they said 200,000. nothing happened. 2002 they said. it has not happened. 2003 they said no, never happened. 2003 we went to the supreme court. we filed the case in the supreme court as a public interest litigation. then the supreme court said it is not there. then we said that we submitted some documents. then they have issued the notice to all the state governments. state governments in the response to the petition, they said just deny it. there is no manual scavenging. there is no drylet. i will show that all the documents.
Ashwin Laksumunage
for instance in west bengal, which is a communist party of india state, ruled state for 24 years. there is rampant manual scavenging in the city of calcutta, in howdah, it has been proved. but they'll say nothing nothing. everybody says nothing and the onus is on you to prove. even if you prove, they say, listen, you're just taking one-off photographs here and there, it doesn't really exist.
for instance in west bengal, which is a communist party of india state, ruled state for 24 years. there is rampant manual scavenging in the city of calcutta, in howdah, it has been proved. but they'll say nothing nothing. everybody says nothing and the onus is on you to prove. even if you prove, they say, listen, you're just taking one-off photographs here and there, it doesn't really exist.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
and actual thing is what happened, the west bengal government, they have not even enacted or the ratified. this central act into the state. we are in the federal structure.
and actual thing is what happened, the west bengal government, they have not even enacted or the ratified. this central act into the state. we are in the federal structure.
Ashwin Laksumunage
28 states and it's a federal government so you the center has to do an act and then each state has to adopt it and ratify it.
28 states and it's a federal government so you the center has to do an act and then each state has to adopt it and ratify it.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
so that they have not done, even delhi has not done. so this.
so that they have not done, even delhi has not done. so this.
Ashwin Laksumunage
no.
no.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
delhi still doesn't know accept that there is this problem.. so 2003 when we went to the court. then in august, january 4th, exactly today, the date january 4th. our petition was accepted in the supreme court and issued the notice to the all the but all the respondents. so august till august, nobody responded and they have issued the notice to the eight secretaries, summons. then only they started looking into that. then the thing is the denial mode. then again it has become, as earlier i said, a burden on the petitioner to prove there is a manual scandal. instead of the state or the institution or the machinery which has the thousands and the legs of the officers. to document and prove to the court they have thrown the burden of the proving.. again on the petitioner, which is a small organization or the movement. by with the community and the solidarity people. then we felt it is a very difficult. then 2007, we submitted the primary data. to the supreme court because it is a continuous struggle and arjan's supreme court. then finally now 2009. 30th april. it has come to the main. hearing there we have proved the data. i will show the data we have how we document the things done then now when we submit the data, then after 15 days, within 15 days, they go along with the police persons that they demolished all the toilets. and in many places, they have not done much good rehabilitation or the alternative livelihood. many some places they also did the rehabilitation. somebody was taken into the permanent jobs. here i want to tell when it comes to the individual dry lid in cleaning. there the rehabilitation or the alternative livelihood is very much required. because they are going to lose the job.
delhi still doesn't know accept that there is this problem.. so 2003 when we went to the court. then in august, january 4th, exactly today, the date january 4th. our petition was accepted in the supreme court and issued the notice to the all the but all the respondents. so august till august, nobody responded and they have issued the notice to the eight secretaries, summons. then only they started looking into that. then the thing is the denial mode. then again it has become, as earlier i said, a burden on the petitioner to prove there is a manual scandal. instead of the state or the institution or the machinery which has the thousands and the legs of the officers. to document and prove to the court they have thrown the burden of the proving.. again on the petitioner, which is a small organization or the movement. by with the community and the solidarity people. then we felt it is a very difficult. then 2007, we submitted the primary data. to the supreme court because it is a continuous struggle and arjan's supreme court. then finally now 2009. 30th april. it has come to the main. hearing there we have proved the data. i will show the data we have how we document the things done then now when we submit the data, then after 15 days, within 15 days, they go along with the police persons that they demolished all the toilets. and in many places, they have not done much good rehabilitation or the alternative livelihood. many some places they also did the rehabilitation. somebody was taken into the permanent jobs. here i want to tell when it comes to the individual dry lid in cleaning. there the rehabilitation or the alternative livelihood is very much required. because they are going to lose the job.
Ashwin Laksumunage
and this is test. once you quit this job, to demolish the letter and then you are liberated from that job. suppose you start a tea shop or you try to sell tea or vegetables. nobody will come to your shop. the stigma attached to. the local community knows you did that job earlier. in fact, even other within dalits, those who do not do this job, the, the non subcast people, they will also not come to your shop. there's been severe problems of dalits coming out of this, the subcast of dalits coming out of this job and trying to do alternative jobs and failing miserably simply because nobody will
and this is test. once you quit this job, to demolish the letter and then you are liberated from that job. suppose you start a tea shop or you try to sell tea or vegetables. nobody will come to your shop. the stigma attached to. the local community knows you did that job earlier. in fact, even other within dalits, those who do not do this job, the, the non subcast people, they will also not come to your shop. there's been severe problems of dalits coming out of this, the subcast of dalits coming out of this job and trying to do alternative jobs and failing miserably simply because nobody will
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
yes, i been. so there, then the supreme court also has taken now so serious. and it is now moving continuously till now. i. so this is another children's also. become a part of the actual movement. in many places. and our aim is total eradication and liberation and rehabilitation. we don't ask you make this, that and all any other things separate measures. our measure is only one, very clear. got stuck okay. so, legal interventions i have expected. this is the person who is the narai nama, you can see there. that women used to clean the 600 seated toilet for 30 years. so when we approach
yes, i been. so there, then the supreme court also has taken now so serious. and it is now moving continuously till now. i. so this is another children's also. become a part of the actual movement. in many places. and our aim is total eradication and liberation and rehabilitation. we don't ask you make this, that and all any other things separate measures. our measure is only one, very clear. got stuck okay. so, legal interventions i have expected. this is the person who is the narai nama, you can see there. that women used to clean the 600 seated toilet for 30 years. so when we approach
Bezwada Wilson
every day she used to collect 16 baskets, 16 baskets of shit.
every day she used to collect 16 baskets, 16 baskets of shit.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
and she used to... she was the permanent employee of the municipality. so when it comes to the permanent employees, they were just repositioned to the other jobs. they are not going to lose the job.
and she used to... she was the permanent employee of the municipality. so when it comes to the permanent employees, they were just repositioned to the other jobs. they are not going to lose the job.
Bezwada Wilson
mm.
mm.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
when it comes to the liberation of the safai karmach race, always we look into the getting into the stock of the... economic this thing livelihood under. see, it is not the problem of the livelihood. we have to look this as a human decl perspective. you can't look from the pisa and how they will live. and no because there is an alternative even the government of india has the schemes for the rehabilitation. only thing is we have to see that everything is coming to the people that process we have to monitor. so she started just joining with the movement. and she hesitated, she went and protested against the collector and said, according to the 1993 act, i am supposed not to clean any toilet. why are you making? and i will lodge a complaint against you. and they said, we are not forcing you to do. if you want, you do. she said, i don't want. and she thrown all those things. then the very next day in the roll call, they have repositioned to other job. then she joined in the movement and she said, all my lifetime, whatever has made me more mollus like very. discrimination like. so against that i will launch my struggle along with the safai k. she her son is the leading one whole state of andhra pradesh as the leader now and she started going as sun is a
when it comes to the liberation of the safai karmach race, always we look into the getting into the stock of the... economic this thing livelihood under. see, it is not the problem of the livelihood. we have to look this as a human decl perspective. you can't look from the pisa and how they will live. and no because there is an alternative even the government of india has the schemes for the rehabilitation. only thing is we have to see that everything is coming to the people that process we have to monitor. so she started just joining with the movement. and she hesitated, she went and protested against the collector and said, according to the 1993 act, i am supposed not to clean any toilet. why are you making? and i will lodge a complaint against you. and they said, we are not forcing you to do. if you want, you do. she said, i don't want. and she thrown all those things. then the very next day in the roll call, they have repositioned to other job. then she joined in the movement and she said, all my lifetime, whatever has made me more mollus like very. discrimination like. so against that i will launch my struggle along with the safai k. she her son is the leading one whole state of andhra pradesh as the leader now and she started going as sun is a
Bezwada Wilson
the.
the.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
i.
i.
Bezwada Wilson
per bliss.
per bliss.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
and she is the naraiamma. and she is the demolishing the dry lat like this. what happened when we filed the case in the supreme court, the andhra state government, they said there is no toilets. then we went to breaking the toilets on our own. when the district authorities has come to us to stop the demolishing, we said, you don't have the toilets, how can you come and stop us? when you don't have the toilet, they said where we said, we have showed the document. we have the documents. and when we move like this, we have seen the dry lat in the premises of the court complex. court complex, the judges are using the talent. dilated.
and she is the naraiamma. and she is the demolishing the dry lat like this. what happened when we filed the case in the supreme court, the andhra state government, they said there is no toilets. then we went to breaking the toilets on our own. when the district authorities has come to us to stop the demolishing, we said, you don't have the toilets, how can you come and stop us? when you don't have the toilet, they said where we said, we have showed the document. we have the documents. and when we move like this, we have seen the dry lat in the premises of the court complex. court complex, the judges are using the talent. dilated.
Ashwin Laksumunage
in you go shit there and you come out and you expect somebody else to clean the shit. and there are the biggest seated where some of them have thousand seats, meaning 600 narayanama used to clean where 600 people used to squat shit and walk away. and you have to go later and collect that shit in baskets. and they claim...
in you go shit there and you come out and you expect somebody else to clean the shit. and there are the biggest seated where some of them have thousand seats, meaning 600 narayanama used to clean where 600 people used to squat shit and walk away. and you have to go later and collect that shit in baskets. and they claim...
Bezwada Wilson
doesn't exist.
doesn't exist.
Ashwin Laksumunage
this yeah
this yeah
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
doesn't exist. so the court complex when we went to break the toilet, the court authorities has come and they asked us to stop. we said, you don't have the toilet. they said it is our toilet, it is the property of the court. we said only thing is we will not demolish this. you just give return saying that it is your property. then immediately they went and they have typed the letter and given to us. their are that sabat. hundreds of the saf karm volunteers has come and they started breaking the dolls in the premises of the court complex. we have prevented them to protect the property of the court complex.
doesn't exist. so the court complex when we went to break the toilet, the court authorities has come and they asked us to stop. we said, you don't have the toilet. they said it is our toilet, it is the property of the court. we said only thing is we will not demolish this. you just give return saying that it is your property. then immediately they went and they have typed the letter and given to us. their are that sabat. hundreds of the saf karm volunteers has come and they started breaking the dolls in the premises of the court complex. we have prevented them to protect the property of the court complex.
Ashwin Laksumunage
the judge. they gave a stay order saying you can't demolish your.
the judge. they gave a stay order saying you can't demolish your.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
so, he accepted that the safai k is cleaning this. we have taken that the very next day we came and we specially leave again one more review petition we have filed in the supreme court and supreme court has issued the notice to the chief secretary. within 24 hours they have demolished. that is another part of the story. but the thing is the judges in the 2005, we demolished this. 1993 act has come. till 2005, judges are not aware of the own act and they start using the title. then when it comes to the rehabilitation this is. the very important thing in the north india now is the women. who is to clean the fecal matters, the same hands has come to throw the baskets in. saying that we'd yeah.
so, he accepted that the safai k is cleaning this. we have taken that the very next day we came and we specially leave again one more review petition we have filed in the supreme court and supreme court has issued the notice to the chief secretary. within 24 hours they have demolished. that is another part of the story. but the thing is the judges in the 2005, we demolished this. 1993 act has come. till 2005, judges are not aware of the own act and they start using the title. then when it comes to the rehabilitation this is. the very important thing in the north india now is the women. who is to clean the fecal matters, the same hands has come to throw the baskets in. saying that we'd yeah.
Ashwin Laksumunage
burning baskets, you know they are supposed to collect it in bamboo baskets which vehicles. so they are burning those baskets in front of the collector office. and collector is the administrative head of a district here. he's called a collector. so you are the bureaucrat who heads the administration of the district. so you are the top guy. you're not a politician, but you're the big bureaucrat who makes decisions. so a collector's office is usually the big administrative block before which they are burning the basket.
burning baskets, you know they are supposed to collect it in bamboo baskets which vehicles. so they are burning those baskets in front of the collector office. and collector is the administrative head of a district here. he's called a collector. so you are the bureaucrat who heads the administration of the district. so you are the top guy. you're not a politician, but you're the big bureaucrat who makes decisions. so a collector's office is usually the big administrative block before which they are burning the basket.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
the women, they come under see the thing is here, the hope is whether the law is there or not. act is there or not. which is a prosecuting or not. the law says very clearly, one year, then nobody can stop. nobody can review a conference happened in the... there in the april. 18th in geneva. so we went and we... made a rally. carrying the baskets from here. and we went there. and we have we have actually that photo is not there, we have burnt those baskets in front of the palace wilson. there is a un high commissioner's office. so there we have burnt and we have given the memorandum. and in response to that and even anuradha and all others we represented, because normally we don't go much to the foreign countries. all our team members they go, we very less we go. because it is a very significant event event. and on the 8th... october. we have submitted a broken piece of the dry letter. just a brick,. memento to the un high commissioner. Navi Pillay. and she had taken that.
the women, they come under see the thing is here, the hope is whether the law is there or not. act is there or not. which is a prosecuting or not. the law says very clearly, one year, then nobody can stop. nobody can review a conference happened in the... there in the april. 18th in geneva. so we went and we... made a rally. carrying the baskets from here. and we went there. and we have we have actually that photo is not there, we have burnt those baskets in front of the palace wilson. there is a un high commissioner's office. so there we have burnt and we have given the memorandum. and in response to that and even anuradha and all others we represented, because normally we don't go much to the foreign countries. all our team members they go, we very less we go. because it is a very significant event event. and on the 8th... october. we have submitted a broken piece of the dry letter. just a brick,. memento to the un high commissioner. Navi Pillay. and she had taken that.
Ashwin Laksumunage
briefly, slavoos. in 2001 there was a world conference against racism. where the indian dalit lobby argued that like racial discrimination, discrimination on the basis of caste and descent should also be recognized internationally as a problem.
briefly, slavoos. in 2001 there was a world conference against racism. where the indian dalit lobby argued that like racial discrimination, discrimination on the basis of caste and descent should also be recognized internationally as a problem.
Slavoj Žižek
mm.
mm.
Ashwin Laksumunage
and the un should take a position on this. they were trying to get some international, just like you know you took a position on apartheid, you take a position on cars. so then over after nine years of lobbying, finally in 2009, two, three months ago, the un finally accepted it. but you know, the un is a toothless organization. the indian government doesn't give a damn about
and the un should take a position on this. they were trying to get some international, just like you know you took a position on apartheid, you take a position on cars. so then over after nine years of lobbying, finally in 2009, two, three months ago, the un finally accepted it. but you know, the un is a toothless organization. the indian government doesn't give a damn about
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
this has got some. i.
this has got some. i.
Ashwin Laksumunage
i. tà.
i. tà.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
so.
so.
Ashwin Laksumunage
giving her mm-hmm yeah i know
giving her mm-hmm yeah i know
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
i within that and we have presented and she had taken that as a very serious and she has written a piece on the tear down the barriers of the caste in that article.
i within that and we have presented and she had taken that as a very serious and she has written a piece on the tear down the barriers of the caste in that article.
Bezwada Wilson
article. after
article. after
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
the.
the.
Bezwada Wilson
this and they acknowledge that thing. ah.
this and they acknowledge that thing. ah.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
so with this i'm just closing. say action 2010. is and total eradication of the manual scavenging in this country which is very much possible and we have divided india has for the administrative purpose divided into 625 districts and we have identified the where are the districts it is there and we are doing the national survey now in 252 districts where we don't know that there is a manual scavenging lie. so once we...
so with this i'm just closing. say action 2010. is and total eradication of the manual scavenging in this country which is very much possible and we have divided india has for the administrative purpose divided into 625 districts and we have identified the where are the districts it is there and we are doing the national survey now in 252 districts where we don't know that there is a manual scavenging lie. so once we...
Bezwada Wilson
you.
you.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
yeah. oui. once we know that very clearly, the data with us. we hope that automatically the people will come to the city. by there is a commonwealth games in october. india is going to host the games and we are also making a plan for that very clearly. when commonwealth games main motto is dignity, self-respect and equality, all these things. when there is a... scavenging. making people to clean the shit when it is happening here. in such country, how the world community can come and play the games here in the name of your logo or your motto is the equality or dignity. so we are actually questioning their conscience also. we want to, we would like to already we submitted one memorandum. to the commonwealth secretariat in london. our friends in the other countries they are also joined hands and people are coming. to join hands with us. and we hope that we can do that very well because when there was an apartheid then south africa team was. actually is never allowed to play the cricket.
yeah. oui. once we know that very clearly, the data with us. we hope that automatically the people will come to the city. by there is a commonwealth games in october. india is going to host the games and we are also making a plan for that very clearly. when commonwealth games main motto is dignity, self-respect and equality, all these things. when there is a... scavenging. making people to clean the shit when it is happening here. in such country, how the world community can come and play the games here in the name of your logo or your motto is the equality or dignity. so we are actually questioning their conscience also. we want to, we would like to already we submitted one memorandum. to the commonwealth secretariat in london. our friends in the other countries they are also joined hands and people are coming. to join hands with us. and we hope that we can do that very well because when there was an apartheid then south africa team was. actually is never allowed to play the cricket.
Ashwin Laksumunage
yeah yeah. it just cricket, tennis, quite a few games.
yeah yeah. it just cricket, tennis, quite a few games.
Slavoj Žižek
there was a boycott, a boycott. i know some of them tried to cheat and passed as part of english team. i know i remember.
there was a boycott, a boycott. i know some of them tried to cheat and passed as part of english team. i know i remember.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
yeah, yes. when such is the case, when there is untouchability here, when the people are being engaged to clean the shit by force, how can you come and play? if there is a you have the standard. saying that when there was apartheid we have boycotted the team mandal, why can't you boycott this? we are asking the world community. you can't come and play. you ask the relocation of the commonwealth games at last. but we are giving enough opportunity for the indian government. to eradicate this because we are a hundred. million, hundred cro. and it is not as small or anything. and 1.3 million, even if the number is 1.3
yeah, yes. when such is the case, when there is untouchability here, when the people are being engaged to clean the shit by force, how can you come and play? if there is a you have the standard. saying that when there was apartheid we have boycotted the team mandal, why can't you boycott this? we are asking the world community. you can't come and play. you ask the relocation of the commonwealth games at last. but we are giving enough opportunity for the indian government. to eradicate this because we are a hundred. million, hundred cro. and it is not as small or anything. and 1.3 million, even if the number is 1.3
Ashwin Laksumunage
population of india is 1 billion. like no no 1.3 million. no, no, it can be done. it can be done.
population of india is 1 billion. like no no 1.3 million. no, no, it can be done. it can be done.
Slavoj Žižek
yes.
yes.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
so it is, you can't think that how they will leave, no 100 crores when they are all living without doing the scavenging. why not for the 1.3 million.
so it is, you can't think that how they will leave, no 100 crores when they are all living without doing the scavenging. why not for the 1.3 million.
Slavoj Žižek
no, but that's the paradox of capitalism today, like, you know. i have to put it. you should watch very carefully. you know, they like to say, oh, we must be pragmatic, it can be done, but it depends. like you remember in copenhagen this ecological. it cannot be done, even if we will all die because of global warming. but when there was a financial crisis, you can do it in one week, you can have thousands of billions, literally. so of course it can be done. i think you are totally right. the whole point of political mobilization is, you know, it's not just this liberals like this endless work. yes, this is a serious. no, no, no. you have to put it, raise the tension. you have to set the debt. i think and also what i like very much is that sorry, let's listen to the
no, but that's the paradox of capitalism today, like, you know. i have to put it. you should watch very carefully. you know, they like to say, oh, we must be pragmatic, it can be done, but it depends. like you remember in copenhagen this ecological. it cannot be done, even if we will all die because of global warming. but when there was a financial crisis, you can do it in one week, you can have thousands of billions, literally. so of course it can be done. i think you are totally right. the whole point of political mobilization is, you know, it's not just this liberals like this endless work. yes, this is a serious. no, no, no. you have to put it, raise the tension. you have to set the debt. i think and also what i like very much is that sorry, let's listen to the
Bezwada Wilson
this girl girl.
this girl girl.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
see, this is the one. rallies and das i have told you, no? we are organizing.
see, this is the one. rallies and das i have told you, no? we are organizing.
Bezwada Wilson
these are.
these are.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
demonstrations.
demonstrations.
Bezwada Wilson
they are demonstrating before district culture. yeah.
they are demonstrating before district culture. yeah.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
we will even ready to die but we will not clean the shit. yes. yeah.
we will even ready to die but we will not clean the shit. yes. yeah.
Bezwada Wilson
even slogans.
even slogans.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
lo. they're all from the community. 20 years before they never want to come out and everything. now today they are.
lo. they're all from the community. 20 years before they never want to come out and everything. now today they are.
Ashwin Laksumunage
we even eat dried bread, but we will not do this work. we will stop, but won't do this.
we even eat dried bread, but we will not do this work. we will stop, but won't do this.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
this is the cal office. they are saying maila prata bankora means stop, stop. stop man cav team. it is a huge, so i am just cutting short. ah,'s bad.
this is the cal office. they are saying maila prata bankora means stop, stop. stop man cav team. it is a huge, so i am just cutting short. ah,'s bad.
Bezwada Wilson
m. thank. i.
m. thank. i.
Slavoj Žižek
around.
around.
Bezwada Wilson
there.
there.
Slavoj Žižek
what is this? is she, this woman, is she one of them, this woman not no conflict here.
what is this? is she, this woman, is she one of them, this woman not no conflict here.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
come. they're all one.
come. they're all one.
Bezwada Wilson
burning the basket on the adoption to.
burning the basket on the adoption to.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
i.
i.
Bezwada Wilson
nice that.
nice that.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
see this girl has a very young girl. she has a child neighbor, she is also aware. now she left. once the struggle is with the skas, once we come to know that they are working, within few months they are out of the jobs. he's the collector.
see this girl has a very young girl. she has a child neighbor, she is also aware. now she left. once the struggle is with the skas, once we come to know that they are working, within few months they are out of the jobs. he's the collector.
Bezwada Wilson
yeah.
yeah.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
this is the collector's chamber. outside the dharma is going. all.
this is the collector's chamber. outside the dharma is going. all.
Bezwada Wilson
thank you. next five. so.
thank you. next five. so.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
i will come and explain to the collector.
i will come and explain to the collector.
Bezwada Wilson
is that official?
is that official?
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
weird.
weird.
Bezwada Wilson
he doesn't want to actually meet him again.
he doesn't want to actually meet him again.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
then what happened? they said, you don't want to actually allow more people inside the office. so we went inside and we have told him. you have to come out.
then what happened? they said, you don't want to actually allow more people inside the office. so we went inside and we have told him. you have to come out.
Bezwada Wilson
you come out and.
you come out and.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
that.
that.
Bezwada Wilson
you.
you.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
he came out. now you can see here the women are talking directly to him. she said, how can you how you said we are not working. you come and i will show, she is saying. see, collectors can ignore our voice, but when people directly ask, and press there. television channel and up. so he had taken one month's time.
he came out. now you can see here the women are talking directly to him. she said, how can you how you said we are not working. you come and i will show, she is saying. see, collectors can ignore our voice, but when people directly ask, and press there. television channel and up. so he had taken one month's time.
Ashwin Laksumunage
thank you.
thank you.
Bezwada Wilson
okay don't you think you have a responsibility of implementation of act? like that, there are questioning and the speaker. . but.
okay don't you think you have a responsibility of implementation of act? like that, there are questioning and the speaker. . but.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
burn the basket.
burn the basket.
Bezwada Wilson
the then demol it.
the then demol it.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
y.
y.
Bezwada Wilson
rajasthan.
rajasthan.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
and we don't have much good documentation on all so video and that. whatever is available, this news channels they come. so we pay them 200 rupees, 300 rupees, ask them to give the one cassette. one cd. so we can't have again the shooting and two people going shooting and all. no this that is like this.
and we don't have much good documentation on all so video and that. whatever is available, this news channels they come. so we pay them 200 rupees, 300 rupees, ask them to give the one cassette. one cd. so we can't have again the shooting and two people going shooting and all. no this that is like this.
Bezwada Wilson
h.
h.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
this much of facilities we don't have. otherwise we could have captured all the judges, pictures on the scavenging and everything, of course.
this much of facilities we don't have. otherwise we could have captured all the judges, pictures on the scavenging and everything, of course.
Ashwin Laksumunage
desktop desktop free.
desktop desktop free.
Bezwada Wilson
i. i.
i. i.
Ashwin Laksumunage
thank.
thank.
Bezwada Wilson
he using this. is the
he using this. is the
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
they continue desktop.
they continue desktop.
Ashwin Laksumunage
i.
i.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
this is the rajasthan, very traditional state.
this is the rajasthan, very traditional state.
Ashwin Laksumunage
ra.
ra.
Bezwada Wilson
the cantonment area.
the cantonment area.
Ashwin Laksumunage
i.
i.
Bezwada Wilson
as.
as.
Ashwin Laksumunage
.
.
Bezwada Wilson
i made this mistake.
i made this mistake.
Ashwin Laksumunage
ent one of the biggest entrapments for.
ent one of the biggest entrapments for.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
so we will have the small mic system, sound system, p system, which announce all the streets.
so we will have the small mic system, sound system, p system, which announce all the streets.
Bezwada Wilson
they women only raising slogans and actually there's the... that state is fully into this very backward and feudal and patriarchal
they women only raising slogans and actually there's the... that state is fully into this very backward and feudal and patriarchal
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
this is in front of the correct office.? so actual thing is, jijk, i want to mention very clearly, this rallies dharnas are protesting against the state one. in this process, the women, they get the empowerment on their road. when they come and give the slogans three, four times. see, i will show one women here.
this is in front of the correct office.? so actual thing is, jijk, i want to mention very clearly, this rallies dharnas are protesting against the state one. in this process, the women, they get the empowerment on their road. when they come and give the slogans three, four times. see, i will show one women here.
Bezwada Wilson
i.
i.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
i. h. ah, he's a collector. everywhere that we are pulling the
i. h. ah, he's a collector. everywhere that we are pulling the
Bezwada Wilson
the is the person in charge.
the is the person in charge.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
otherwise you can't go inside and talk
otherwise you can't go inside and talk
Bezwada Wilson
i thing. within a week? they have demolished all their violetins. now that's the. now they also burn the birds.
i thing. within a week? they have demolished all their violetins. now that's the. now they also burn the birds.
Ashwin Laksumunage
yeah.
yeah.
Bezwada Wilson
he is there all questioning those persons. happy anz.
he is there all questioning those persons. happy anz.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
he's telling the. so he is telling that we will do the resurvey. and we will do whatever is possible. and...
he's telling the. so he is telling that we will do the resurvey. and we will do whatever is possible. and...
Bezwada Wilson
now coming and now they do.
now coming and now they do.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
.
.
Bezwada Wilson
i.
i.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
now.
now.
Bezwada Wilson
now they are keeping all the baskets. whatever they use. at one place.
now they are keeping all the baskets. whatever they use. at one place.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
it is all very small places.
it is all very small places.
Bezwada Wilson
sometimes even though we can't get the used baskets, new baskets. i.
sometimes even though we can't get the used baskets, new baskets. i.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
they are the women. we actually literally is to clean the top.
they are the women. we actually literally is to clean the top.
Bezwada Wilson
m. .
m. .
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
sub. by actions once you do this like this you know they will get like this. actually what i want to mention here is
sub. by actions once you do this like this you know they will get like this. actually what i want to mention here is
Bezwada Wilson
.
.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
jb means. bimraam betka.
jb means. bimraam betka.
Ashwin Laksumunage
.
.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
huh?
huh?
Ashwin Laksumunage
yeah.
yeah.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
this is the thing. so i want to tell once here very small thing and i'm almost i finished.
this is the thing. so i want to tell once here very small thing and i'm almost i finished.
Bezwada Wilson
demolition of demolition.
demolition of demolition.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
what i want to tell here is one of such women who participated. this kind of thing in nasirat. see when we are all going. so everybody left and, everybody has gone, almost. so during that time what happened? one woman, she is not going. she's just following us. till we leave that place. and when we are coming and at last we are saying, okay, bye bye, it is good you large number has come and you did the good carry everything. one woman, she has just started pulling anurha's hand like this back. i am only watching. why she's not going anaa? and she had taken and she has hold the hand and she said, from tomorrow i don't want to be.
what i want to tell here is one of such women who participated. this kind of thing in nasirat. see when we are all going. so everybody left and, everybody has gone, almost. so during that time what happened? one woman, she is not going. she's just following us. till we leave that place. and when we are coming and at last we are saying, okay, bye bye, it is good you large number has come and you did the good carry everything. one woman, she has just started pulling anurha's hand like this back. i am only watching. why she's not going anaa? and she had taken and she has hold the hand and she said, from tomorrow i don't want to be.
Ashwin Laksumunage
i don't. do. i don't be. and she asked what happened.
i don't. do. i don't be. and she asked what happened.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
no, i don't i don't do. only just she said, no, i don't. no, no, no, you have to see why it is. no, i don't. i decided. deka. so that is the actual our hope. not the government, something. no, no, no. our hope is actually
no, i don't i don't do. only just she said, no, i don't. no, no, no, you have to see why it is. no, i don't. i decided. deka. so that is the actual our hope. not the government, something. no, no, no. our hope is actually
Ashwin Laksumunage
i just.
i just.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
mm. see, this is our effort we have showed. we have already number of that thing. whatever we did now the people. government also after this government supreme court intervention and the prime minister and the president. speeches and all, they also did on their own demolishing. so one of that is the government they themselves. they hired a proclers. to demolish the toilets.
mm. see, this is our effort we have showed. we have already number of that thing. whatever we did now the people. government also after this government supreme court intervention and the prime minister and the president. speeches and all, they also did on their own demolishing. so one of that is the government they themselves. they hired a proclers. to demolish the toilets.
Bezwada Wilson
this remind the bisc.
this remind the bisc.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
i. we can't go on the demolition because it is such a big structure.
i. we can't go on the demolition because it is such a big structure.
Bezwada Wilson
2019. oh.
2019. oh.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
we are using the government, their own structure to demolish their own structure.
we are using the government, their own structure to demolish their own structure.
Bezwada Wilson
actually we forced them to do i mean earlier these are non-issues for them. never given any importance. because of repeated requisitions, repeated pressure.
actually we forced them to do i mean earlier these are non-issues for them. never given any importance. because of repeated requisitions, repeated pressure.
Ashwin Laksumunage
j.
j.
Bezwada Wilson
and coming on the street.
and coming on the street.
Ashwin Laksumunage
ham nadaka.
ham nadaka.
Bezwada Wilson
haz and all.
haz and all.
Ashwin Laksumunage
yeah into. in tamil nad community.
yeah into. in tamil nad community.
Bezwada Wilson
similar demolition. that. .
similar demolition. that. .
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
i'mco. city high.
i'mco. city high.
Bezwada Wilson
so like now almost all dilins
so like now almost all dilins
Ashwin Laksumunage
there been.
there been.
Bezwada Wilson
slowly getting demolished by government because of this pressure unless
slowly getting demolished by government because of this pressure unless
Ashwin Laksumunage
for.
for.
Bezwada Wilson
we see these things as symbols of shame. until these dry get demolished. there is always a chance to engage these women again and again in the.
we see these things as symbols of shame. until these dry get demolished. there is always a chance to engage these women again and again in the.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
. and.
. and.
Bezwada Wilson
so that's a thing.
so that's a thing.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
another thing is even the women who are clean the toilets, you know they have so much of angeranda. so once you make that as an own pinnacle point. so they will not get the satisfaction. they come and they do the demolition. so they feel that they actually liberated themselves. when they're destroyed.
another thing is even the women who are clean the toilets, you know they have so much of angeranda. so once you make that as an own pinnacle point. so they will not get the satisfaction. they come and they do the demolition. so they feel that they actually liberated themselves. when they're destroyed.
Ashwin Laksumunage
ah, this is that.
ah, this is that.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
so total demolition sent you.
so total demolition sent you.
Ashwin Laksumunage
yeah, yeah, yeah, i can.
yeah, yeah, yeah, i can.
Bezwada Wilson
.
.
Ashwin Laksumunage
and.
and.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
monica kasacininka palovka.
monica kasacininka palovka.
Ashwin Laksumunage
. so our...
. so our...
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
great to hope peace. even persons like you. once you start speaking about this, will'll give a kind of a international
great to hope peace. even persons like you. once you start speaking about this, will'll give a kind of a international
Ashwin Laksumunage
the problem, slav, is intellectuals in india do not engage with this issue.
the problem, slav, is intellectuals in india do not engage with this issue.
Slavoj Žižek
they do not want to talk what do they say if you ask them, why not? just do some gesture, sign or whatever?
they do not want to talk what do they say if you ask them, why not? just do some gesture, sign or whatever?
Ashwin Laksumunage
they might sign a petition if you go to them, but it's not a priority. as we all think, we sit in our commodes, flush the toilet and forget about it. we don't care. what happens to the sewer worker, what exactly it goes to see if there is religious violence, you know, hindus and muslims are fighting.
they might sign a petition if you go to them, but it's not a priority. as we all think, we sit in our commodes, flush the toilet and forget about it. we don't care. what happens to the sewer worker, what exactly it goes to see if there is religious violence, you know, hindus and muslims are fighting.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
hey.
hey.
Ashwin Laksumunage
then everybody says it's a secularism issue, it's a communalism issue. the estimate that i did in my article in the is about 22,000 people are dying every year. in the process of doing this job, because of the hazard of doing this job. and that is like endangering a particular community and their lives by a particular occupation. so it's some kind of genocide is happening out there. it's a strong word to use, genocide. but if you're going inside a sewer every day and cleaning and you're taking in methane and all the noxious gases. it's like killing you you know so most of the men who do the... in this there are women who do 80% sweeping and manual scavenging, but in sewer work, it's the men who go, the women don't. because it's also a very physically intensive job. you have to go inside and there's a
then everybody says it's a secularism issue, it's a communalism issue. the estimate that i did in my article in the is about 22,000 people are dying every year. in the process of doing this job, because of the hazard of doing this job. and that is like endangering a particular community and their lives by a particular occupation. so it's some kind of genocide is happening out there. it's a strong word to use, genocide. but if you're going inside a sewer every day and cleaning and you're taking in methane and all the noxious gases. it's like killing you you know so most of the men who do the... in this there are women who do 80% sweeping and manual scavenging, but in sewer work, it's the men who go, the women don't. because it's also a very physically intensive job. you have to go inside and there's a
Slavoj Žižek
very stupid simple question. let's take a woman who works this manually cleaning the toilets, not down here. what's the typical situation? okay, she has the family.
very stupid simple question. let's take a woman who works this manually cleaning the toilets, not down here. what's the typical situation? okay, she has the family.
Ashwin Laksumunage
okay?
okay?
Slavoj Žižek
how does the family react to her coming out, starting to protest? i don't.
how does the family react to her coming out, starting to protest? i don't.
Bezwada Wilson
that
that
Slavoj Žižek
how does typically the family?
how does typically the family?
Bezwada Wilson
i the silver line.
i the silver line.
Slavoj Žižek
i.
i.
Bezwada Wilson
i need to speak.
i need to speak.
Slavoj Žižek
if naraidama stops 80%.
if naraidama stops 80%.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
how does their family react? you see the thing is normally the family also part of the ka system. and family is also part of the patriarchy. so they never supports the women to come out of this.
how does their family react? you see the thing is normally the family also part of the ka system. and family is also part of the patriarchy. so they never supports the women to come out of this.
Slavoj Žižek
and... that't.
and... that't.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
that is what i said, my taken my brother's example to understand. that is the thing. so they never actually they say they will tell that if you leave this, how we will live? how and you can't do this and it is against this and the may boycott our family, social boycott all these fears they create. but despite of all these things when the women come to the street after some time they started because it is the reality is the individual freedom. individual individualss with self-respect. when the people felt the self-respect is the matter, then everybody will rally. so whole family will come to her. and family is also part of this rallies. she is not just. first time she protests within their own family, brothers, daughter, sister, son and everybody and she comes out. because they're never allowed even to speak out. when we go to their house to meet her or something, first we have to go to the vidha by crossing many layers. the head of the family, husband, then the son, then the daughters, then there are so many people, then you will go to head. so i see what i found so admirable this
that is what i said, my taken my brother's example to understand. that is the thing. so they never actually they say they will tell that if you leave this, how we will live? how and you can't do this and it is against this and the may boycott our family, social boycott all these fears they create. but despite of all these things when the women come to the street after some time they started because it is the reality is the individual freedom. individual individualss with self-respect. when the people felt the self-respect is the matter, then everybody will rally. so whole family will come to her. and family is also part of this rallies. she is not just. first time she protests within their own family, brothers, daughter, sister, son and everybody and she comes out. because they're never allowed even to speak out. when we go to their house to meet her or something, first we have to go to the vidha by crossing many layers. the head of the family, husband, then the son, then the daughters, then there are so many people, then you will go to head. so i see what i found so admirable this
Slavoj Žižek
do women who protest, no?
do women who protest, no?
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
yeah.
yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
it's not just they protest here. this also has probably a good effect on their status within the family itself. yes it's the dignity and so on. that's very good. this is crucial. yeah but also within the family. i mean, once she does this, she cannot return home and just sweep for the husband.
it's not just they protest here. this also has probably a good effect on their status within the family itself. yes it's the dignity and so on. that's very good. this is crucial. yeah but also within the family. i mean, once she does this, she cannot return home and just sweep for the husband.
Ashwin Laksumunage
that that's very good.
that that's very good.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
that is what we called it as and revolutionary changes are happening at many levels.
that is what we called it as and revolutionary changes are happening at many levels.
Bezwada Wilson
actually
actually
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
this sample.
this sample.
Bezwada Wilson
in many cases, if we talk about the realities, in tamil nadu, there's one lady, mary. she's a single woman. she lost her husband and she has three kids and she was in manual scavenging. she was in manual scavenging. then even children don't want to see her mother's face or recognize her mother when they are in school. if this lady passes that school at unr.
in many cases, if we talk about the realities, in tamil nadu, there's one lady, mary. she's a single woman. she lost her husband and she has three kids and she was in manual scavenging. she was in manual scavenging. then even children don't want to see her mother's face or recognize her mother when they are in school. if this lady passes that school at unr.
Slavoj Žižek
but this is so deeply pathologic.
but this is so deeply pathologic.
Bezwada Wilson
that.
that.
Ashwin Laksumunage
can you imagine?
can you imagine?
Slavoj Žižek
what trauma this can do to the children when the system makes them ashamed of their own mother.
what trauma this can do to the children when the system makes them ashamed of their own mother.
Bezwada Wilson
areas you know children of this man, man scavenger's children, they are forced to clean their own premises, school premises and school.
areas you know children of this man, man scavenger's children, they are forced to clean their own premises, school premises and school.
Slavoj Žižek
i saw this in that stalin documentary. yeah yeah yeah yeah.
i saw this in that stalin documentary. yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Bezwada Wilson
i.
i.
Slavoj Žižek
the teacher denies everything, you know.
the teacher denies everything, you know.
Bezwada Wilson
but after this lady stopped. stopping this work, now she is a proud mother. not because she stopped, because she got the courage to stop, number one. and number two, she against another livelihood she opted. and then they are in the process, children also became empowered. children also started understanding why this has thrown on them and all the caste and all that. now she is a very proud mother. and she's now stopped that work and now getting 3000 rupees per month. earlier she used to get thousand rupees because from this man was inva now three to.
but after this lady stopped. stopping this work, now she is a proud mother. not because she stopped, because she got the courage to stop, number one. and number two, she against another livelihood she opted. and then they are in the process, children also became empowered. children also started understanding why this has thrown on them and all the caste and all that. now she is a very proud mother. and she's now stopped that work and now getting 3000 rupees per month. earlier she used to get thousand rupees because from this man was inva now three to.
Slavoj Žižek
you you said before this.
you you said before this.
Bezwada Wilson
and in haryana, one more case i want to tell you. there is one lady named bala devi. she is was beaten up by her husband very badly, domestic violence she used to face a lot, that fellow drunkard and also forced her to continue the work. she is very thin, very unhealthy and very lean weakened. that lady was actually motivated by our team members now now she got some two buffaloes and now she is earning money and her husband also helping her and stopped beating and everything. now her status in the family also improved. not only the
and in haryana, one more case i want to tell you. there is one lady named bala devi. she is was beaten up by her husband very badly, domestic violence she used to face a lot, that fellow drunkard and also forced her to continue the work. she is very thin, very unhealthy and very lean weakened. that lady was actually motivated by our team members now now she got some two buffaloes and now she is earning money and her husband also helping her and stopped beating and everything. now her status in the family also improved. not only the
Ashwin Laksumunage
yes. also, i think the good
yes. also, i think the good
Slavoj Žižek
re-education of a husband beating his wife is to make him feel that basically if he's beating his wife, it doesn't show his potency, power, it's his impotence. it's out of... he's low so you know, it's not because... their wives are not strong men they want to be. and also what i want to say is that i find wonderful this example of how this is why i totally support you know some people may say okay but they are not starving it's only one million who cares no you are i think like you know i like this metaphor how do you call it a knot. and then you it seems you will say, let's say this table is held together by a rope and here it's a knot. you untie this knot and then everything changes you know like it's not just about scavenging. in this way you change family relations you change because as you show this is for me crucial. it's the whole you are a kind of a symptom or how should i put it, a point which... presupposes the whole system. so the point is this is the elegant play game you are playing in a good sense, not manipulation. you can say, oh, we just want this modest thing. no, no, but to solve this modest thing, you have to change practically to get rid of to change 30 years of tradition, all ideology and so on. that's what i like so much in ambedkar. he has that beautiful, he plays with this word play in english. he says, no cast without outcasts, you know. the moment so you cannot do what gandhi wanted. okay, let's integrate the dalits and we will have a truly harmonious. no, no, no, no. when you have castes, you must have somebody who is outcast devote it, no? this is crucial, i think, to see that your struggle is by being particular is universal at the same time. it changes everything. it changes political logic. it empowers directly people. you can see how this is what i think more and more that this pure representative democracy just once four years or i don't know how you have it here you go to vote it's not enough you need more constant mobilization, pressure and so on. why? because another thing i think it's also abs absolutelyial where you are typical. you know, in the old days, more traditional societies, you had explicit rules. i have to be submitted to my lord. and then secretly you violated the rules. here is the opposite. it's officially they are telling us, but there is no problem. we are equal. and these rules of forum function in a secret way. everybody denies them and this is typical. this is how our society.
re-education of a husband beating his wife is to make him feel that basically if he's beating his wife, it doesn't show his potency, power, it's his impotence. it's out of... he's low so you know, it's not because... their wives are not strong men they want to be. and also what i want to say is that i find wonderful this example of how this is why i totally support you know some people may say okay but they are not starving it's only one million who cares no you are i think like you know i like this metaphor how do you call it a knot. and then you it seems you will say, let's say this table is held together by a rope and here it's a knot. you untie this knot and then everything changes you know like it's not just about scavenging. in this way you change family relations you change because as you show this is for me crucial. it's the whole you are a kind of a symptom or how should i put it, a point which... presupposes the whole system. so the point is this is the elegant play game you are playing in a good sense, not manipulation. you can say, oh, we just want this modest thing. no, no, but to solve this modest thing, you have to change practically to get rid of to change 30 years of tradition, all ideology and so on. that's what i like so much in ambedkar. he has that beautiful, he plays with this word play in english. he says, no cast without outcasts, you know. the moment so you cannot do what gandhi wanted. okay, let's integrate the dalits and we will have a truly harmonious. no, no, no, no. when you have castes, you must have somebody who is outcast devote it, no? this is crucial, i think, to see that your struggle is by being particular is universal at the same time. it changes everything. it changes political logic. it empowers directly people. you can see how this is what i think more and more that this pure representative democracy just once four years or i don't know how you have it here you go to vote it's not enough you need more constant mobilization, pressure and so on. why? because another thing i think it's also abs absolutelyial where you are typical. you know, in the old days, more traditional societies, you had explicit rules. i have to be submitted to my lord. and then secretly you violated the rules. here is the opposite. it's officially they are telling us, but there is no problem. we are equal. and these rules of forum function in a secret way. everybody denies them and this is typical. this is how our society.
Ashwin Laksumunage
he talked of yesterday as formal. in.
he talked of yesterday as formal. in.
Slavoj Žižek
publicly denied. you know, this is the paradox, which is why on the other hand, as you showed, this gives you and us a certain power because even those officials they have to deny it and so if you insist and force them yes no i love these paradoxes you know how when you this is for me so wonderful although it may appeal just a small trick when you showed how you forced that by ruining their own latrins you know to shine to shine that you are so okay then you can tell him okay first they don't exist but now they do exist or what if you cannot destroy them or what because i have a similar story it happened in my country you know how oh... a friend of mine served the military. and you know. it was after one week, you have to swear the solemn oath.
publicly denied. you know, this is the paradox, which is why on the other hand, as you showed, this gives you and us a certain power because even those officials they have to deny it and so if you insist and force them yes no i love these paradoxes you know how when you this is for me so wonderful although it may appeal just a small trick when you showed how you forced that by ruining their own latrins you know to shine to shine that you are so okay then you can tell him okay first they don't exist but now they do exist or what if you cannot destroy them or what because i have a similar story it happened in my country you know how oh... a friend of mine served the military. and you know. it was after one week, you have to swear the solemn oath.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
mm-hmm
mm-hmm
Slavoj Žižek
you know know, after like i'm ready to die for blah, blah blah. and then you have to sign it. and this friend of mine, when it came to signing, he said, no, i will not sign it. and then the officer told him, are you crazy? you will be arrested. you have to sign. then my friend said, but is this a voluntary oath or are you ordering me? that was the whole trick. and then the officer told him it's voluntary, of course. then my friend said, okay, if it's voluntary, i will not sign it. the officer said, no, if you don't sign it, you will be imprisoned. then my friend said, okay, i will sign it if you write an order. it's the same as that. then my friend has this crazy paper where the officer wrote i am formally ordering you to voluntarily sign this you he got the paper you know it's crazy but this is you know like this is how authority works. authority doesn't only tell you you have to do this no it tells you what you have freely to do no and it's all this game you that's how power works. they don't order you. they want you to make you that you freely decide and it's the same that's why i like these documents also like that judges, you know okay, toilets don't exist, but we want to use them. we want to have it's like some people say, you know, like in israel, when you speak with zionists, i mean, they say, god doesn't exist. they're mostly atheists, but nonetheless, god gave us the land of israel. we have the right to eat. you know this is our... strong that law it's not that law is a strong system. which is no, law has to cheat on itself to function. you no. those in power have to cheat, to admit, to deny it at the same time. and this gives us a space. i love this how when we were young and these 68 revolutionaries, we thought law is bad, we have to subvert it. no, sometimes you've proven the best thing is just to demand, which follow the law. no, we don't need to subvert the law. those in power subvert and cheat on their own laws. no we just have to say, no, we are not revolutionaries. you are the revolution. but. i think you're
you know know, after like i'm ready to die for blah, blah blah. and then you have to sign it. and this friend of mine, when it came to signing, he said, no, i will not sign it. and then the officer told him, are you crazy? you will be arrested. you have to sign. then my friend said, but is this a voluntary oath or are you ordering me? that was the whole trick. and then the officer told him it's voluntary, of course. then my friend said, okay, if it's voluntary, i will not sign it. the officer said, no, if you don't sign it, you will be imprisoned. then my friend said, okay, i will sign it if you write an order. it's the same as that. then my friend has this crazy paper where the officer wrote i am formally ordering you to voluntarily sign this you he got the paper you know it's crazy but this is you know like this is how authority works. authority doesn't only tell you you have to do this no it tells you what you have freely to do no and it's all this game you that's how power works. they don't order you. they want you to make you that you freely decide and it's the same that's why i like these documents also like that judges, you know okay, toilets don't exist, but we want to use them. we want to have it's like some people say, you know, like in israel, when you speak with zionists, i mean, they say, god doesn't exist. they're mostly atheists, but nonetheless, god gave us the land of israel. we have the right to eat. you know this is our... strong that law it's not that law is a strong system. which is no, law has to cheat on itself to function. you no. those in power have to cheat, to admit, to deny it at the same time. and this gives us a space. i love this how when we were young and these 68 revolutionaries, we thought law is bad, we have to subvert it. no, sometimes you've proven the best thing is just to demand, which follow the law. no, we don't need to subvert the law. those in power subvert and cheat on their own laws. no we just have to say, no, we are not revolutionaries. you are the revolution. but. i think you're
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
no. we.
no. we.
Slavoj Žižek
you want to follow the law more than you do.
you want to follow the law more than you do.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
did?
did?
Slavoj Žižek
actuallyually
actuallyually
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
what we said is to actually to implement. you were warned la.
what we said is to actually to implement. you were warned la.
Slavoj Žižek
we are destroying this. we are actively.
we are destroying this. we are actively.
Bezwada Wilson
one women is ordering a government official, why don't you implement the law?
one women is ordering a government official, why don't you implement the law?
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
but actually what we are saying by destroying this then we are establishing.
but actually what we are saying by destroying this then we are establishing.
Slavoj Žižek
cameerals came and say we sympathize with you but we need time. no, there are moments when you have to say stop, you know like you cannot always play this game, we need more time and so on, because they all like this well-meaning patronizing humanitarians say, oh, we have time, we can go on. no, for example, precisely what you demand, it can be done. it can be done. don't you think it can be done very quickly. it's not true that it's not a big money exchange. even if i, okay, as a pragmatist, i myself was thinking, but wait a minute, all these things... d. okay, this is not the point, but nonetheless... if they will say, okay, but what do we do with it? my god, there are easy technological solutions and so on. don't tell me this is a serious problem, you know. i think that they must know secretly that if they will lose this battle, others will follow and so on. they know, you know, they know.
cameerals came and say we sympathize with you but we need time. no, there are moments when you have to say stop, you know like you cannot always play this game, we need more time and so on, because they all like this well-meaning patronizing humanitarians say, oh, we have time, we can go on. no, for example, precisely what you demand, it can be done. it can be done. don't you think it can be done very quickly. it's not true that it's not a big money exchange. even if i, okay, as a pragmatist, i myself was thinking, but wait a minute, all these things... d. okay, this is not the point, but nonetheless... if they will say, okay, but what do we do with it? my god, there are easy technological solutions and so on. don't tell me this is a serious problem, you know. i think that they must know secretly that if they will lose this battle, others will follow and so on. they know, you know, they know.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
tr.
tr.
Slavoj Žižek
yet you know, all canny politicians, and they are not all idiots, they are idiots, but when they have to care for their own interests, they are not idiots. there they know. they know that you know. like you demand from me something which is not a lot. but i know i can give you this, but if i can give you this, i will have to do other things more. and this is why you have to read this one. this can be done.
yet you know, all canny politicians, and they are not all idiots, they are idiots, but when they have to care for their own interests, they are not idiots. there they know. they know that you know. like you demand from me something which is not a lot. but i know i can give you this, but if i can give you this, i will have to do other things more. and this is why you have to read this one. this can be done.
Bezwada Wilson
yeah.
yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
i mean, because here again, those pragmatists are lying, i think, who say, no, it's too fast. no, it can be done very fast, it's easy to do. and the problem and then you can keep them low.
i mean, because here again, those pragmatists are lying, i think, who say, no, it's too fast. no, it can be done very fast, it's easy to do. and the problem and then you can keep them low.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
a new person he wants
a new person he wants
Slavoj Žižek
sorry, sorry, please.
sorry, sorry, please.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
yeah.
yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
sorry.
sorry.
Bezwada Wilson
i delayed.
i delayed.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
my name is dr. y moses and i am one of the code team members. of ska. yes, we got delayed because of the fog and all.
my name is dr. y moses and i am one of the code team members. of ska. yes, we got delayed because of the fog and all.
Bezwada Wilson
you from
you from
Slavoj Žižek
bangalore.
bangalore.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
yeah, bank.
yeah, bank.
Slavoj Žižek
you know you are the city, this is india, the way it likes to be themselves in the west. bangalore, all those programmers, to be expensive. that's the india. we europeans sympathize with all those program writers, you know, and so on.
you know you are the city, this is india, the way it likes to be themselves in the west. bangalore, all those programmers, to be expensive. that's the india. we europeans sympathize with all those program writers, you know, and so on.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
actual thing is what we have come back again we go. uh... people now also are telling that who is forcing the scavenger to do this? like that adati said. we are i am authoring you to voluntarily to sign life. pretty way here also. yeah.
actual thing is what we have come back again we go. uh... people now also are telling that who is forcing the scavenger to do this? like that adati said. we are i am authoring you to voluntarily to sign life. pretty way here also. yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
but this is a big problem today, you know?
but this is a big problem today, you know?
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
even.
even.
Slavoj Žižek
well know where you are connected with other struggles now. the same problem is now in the united states. where i don't have any illusions about obama, but why is he so much under attack for this healthcare plan? again, people are resisting saying he's taking our freedom of choice. but what freedom of choice do you have under the present system? it's the same as you. of course, formal you have a freedom of choice. what? to die, to starve or what? such a lot is manipulated today by this freedom of choice. you know people should learn that in order to have a freedom of choice, you have to have many things which function. state power, traditions and so on and so on. a lot is being, again, that's the problem today. yes they always can tell you, okay, you're not satisfied, go or whatever, no? but...
well know where you are connected with other struggles now. the same problem is now in the united states. where i don't have any illusions about obama, but why is he so much under attack for this healthcare plan? again, people are resisting saying he's taking our freedom of choice. but what freedom of choice do you have under the present system? it's the same as you. of course, formal you have a freedom of choice. what? to die, to starve or what? such a lot is manipulated today by this freedom of choice. you know people should learn that in order to have a freedom of choice, you have to have many things which function. state power, traditions and so on and so on. a lot is being, again, that's the problem today. yes they always can tell you, okay, you're not satisfied, go or whatever, no? but...
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
ofijith has a few kind of reflections on this. sorry, he will take an interview him i will go out of this weekend. no, no, you don't need to. you'll be here.
ofijith has a few kind of reflections on this. sorry, he will take an interview him i will go out of this weekend. no, no, you don't need to. you'll be here.
Slavoj Žižek
when i.
when i.
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
i have to disconnect sir, otherwise it is a problem for her. no, no, no,. you much salt.
i have to disconnect sir, otherwise it is a problem for her. no, no, no,. you much salt.
Slavoj Žižek
practice there this kind of law or those in power systematically violating their own rules and so on. what interests me is how first, what interests me is ideology, not as big ideological theories, projects, but ideology. penetrating daily life. how you. go to the toilet, how you cook, all that stuff, how you walk on the streets, for example. in europe, we are... we don't admit it, but we have the same. for example, i read a wonderful analysis of how in a modern teaching even how the way you dispose where is the where is the how you call it where do hook the
practice there this kind of law or those in power systematically violating their own rules and so on. what interests me is how first, what interests me is ideology, not as big ideological theories, projects, but ideology. penetrating daily life. how you. go to the toilet, how you cook, all that stuff, how you walk on the streets, for example. in europe, we are... we don't admit it, but we have the same. for example, i read a wonderful analysis of how in a modern teaching even how the way you dispose where is the where is the how you call it where do hook the
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
the garbage.
the garbage.
Slavoj Žižek
no, no, what is the mechanism with which you cook?
no, no, what is the mechanism with which you cook?
Safai Karmachari Andolan National Convenor
that big.
that big.
Slavoj Žižek
where where is the stove, where is the wash basin and so on. it's not just technology, the whole ideology is in it, in what stage, how. so this is what always fascinated me. once this first everyday level of ideology in our daily practices. second thing which interests me is this. duality of the law how you know for me in human civilization as such you never have simply orders, prohibitions, and then you violate them or not. for example, i don't know. for me, a culture always functions in a more complex way. like, i don't know how it is with you here, for example, but in europe, let us say we compete for the same job. yui. if we are french in europe, it... usual politeness to do what? you tell me, listen, we are friends i know you deserve job more than me so i step down so that you can get the job. you make me this offer. but it's well understood that guy will say, no, no, i will refuse. but although it's nonsense, but we have to go through this. you know what i mean? and... here we can do, for example... for example, another anecdote from my past. in in our communism, there were elections. they were not as bad as... commists in soviet union, but the communists didn't get like under stalin 99%, but they got like 80% always so everybody knew who will win and so on. so i was member of some small student newspaper, a little bit dissident and we said, what should we do to annoy those in power? oui printed special issue of our newspaper not directly attacking. we're not saying this were're not really free. everybody knew this. we did something much more cunning. we said, they are saying these are free elections, so let's treat them as if they are free elections. published. on the evening of the elections a big front page where we just said you know. latest news, it looks as if communists will remain in power. everybody knew, but you know, we treated this as real news, as if that was a change the day. we lose power in them and they were so furious they called us to the central committee of the party and shouted at us. and we simply told them, wait a minute, you said that these are free elections. we treated them as free elections. what's the problem? and it's so interesting, the guy couldn't tell us, listen, you know, we couldn't lose the election. why? did you that? he just told us, listen. don't mesh with me you know very well what i'm talking about then he said please what are you talking about don't mesh me with you know what you know what i mean we got and it works like this so this is what fascinates me all this rules, obscene secret rules, how you know? there are usually people focus only on rules, regulations which are meant to be violated like many sexual prohibitions. when father tells you don't mess with women, it means really do it but discreetly or what no at least in patriarchal society. but what interests me much more is the opposite mechanism you are told make a choice but in reality it means you are given a freedom to make a choice only if you make the right choice, the choice that i want, you know? there is something very confused in this mechanism, how you are apparently... given a freedom or to go even further. it's not only that something is prohibited to do. but you have even publicly to deny the prohibition. and here i think you work a little bit in this way. you are... the system wants you cash system, limited to your cast and so on. but you are not even allowed to say this publicly. you must behave as if publicly everything is okay, we are all equal. you know, this nice irony that prohibition itself is prohibited. you are not only subordinated, but you must act as if you are free. and this is typical of our capitalist drama, all the drama and so on. and this is what interests me here. i
where where is the stove, where is the wash basin and so on. it's not just technology, the whole ideology is in it, in what stage, how. so this is what always fascinated me. once this first everyday level of ideology in our daily practices. second thing which interests me is this. duality of the law how you know for me in human civilization as such you never have simply orders, prohibitions, and then you violate them or not. for example, i don't know. for me, a culture always functions in a more complex way. like, i don't know how it is with you here, for example, but in europe, let us say we compete for the same job. yui. if we are french in europe, it... usual politeness to do what? you tell me, listen, we are friends i know you deserve job more than me so i step down so that you can get the job. you make me this offer. but it's well understood that guy will say, no, no, i will refuse. but although it's nonsense, but we have to go through this. you know what i mean? and... here we can do, for example... for example, another anecdote from my past. in in our communism, there were elections. they were not as bad as... commists in soviet union, but the communists didn't get like under stalin 99%, but they got like 80% always so everybody knew who will win and so on. so i was member of some small student newspaper, a little bit dissident and we said, what should we do to annoy those in power? oui printed special issue of our newspaper not directly attacking. we're not saying this were're not really free. everybody knew this. we did something much more cunning. we said, they are saying these are free elections, so let's treat them as if they are free elections. published. on the evening of the elections a big front page where we just said you know. latest news, it looks as if communists will remain in power. everybody knew, but you know, we treated this as real news, as if that was a change the day. we lose power in them and they were so furious they called us to the central committee of the party and shouted at us. and we simply told them, wait a minute, you said that these are free elections. we treated them as free elections. what's the problem? and it's so interesting, the guy couldn't tell us, listen, you know, we couldn't lose the election. why? did you that? he just told us, listen. don't mesh with me you know very well what i'm talking about then he said please what are you talking about don't mesh me with you know what you know what i mean we got and it works like this so this is what fascinates me all this rules, obscene secret rules, how you know? there are usually people focus only on rules, regulations which are meant to be violated like many sexual prohibitions. when father tells you don't mess with women, it means really do it but discreetly or what no at least in patriarchal society. but what interests me much more is the opposite mechanism you are told make a choice but in reality it means you are given a freedom to make a choice only if you make the right choice, the choice that i want, you know? there is something very confused in this mechanism, how you are apparently... given a freedom or to go even further. it's not only that something is prohibited to do. but you have even publicly to deny the prohibition. and here i think you work a little bit in this way. you are... the system wants you cash system, limited to your cast and so on. but you are not even allowed to say this publicly. you must behave as if publicly everything is okay, we are all equal. you know, this nice irony that prohibition itself is prohibited. you are not only subordinated, but you must act as if you are free. and this is typical of our capitalist drama, all the drama and so on. and this is what interests me here. i