A very dangerous Q&A - FULL with English subtitles
Interview · masterbootleg ·
published 2011-10-04 · 0:57:16 · 9,735 words
with Tony Jones (host), Kate Adie (panelist), Jon Ronson (panelist), Mona Eltahawy (panelist), Greg Sheridan (panelist), Co-Panelist, Eleanor Doyle-Markwick (audience member), Oliver Damian (audience member)
the date above is when the video was uploaded, no recording date was found
sexuality-genderpsychoanalysisideologycapitalismdemocracygeopolitics-warreligion-theologyliberalism-political-correctnesseveryday-life
A panel discussion recorded live at the Sydney Opera House for the ABC Q&A program during the Festival of Dangerous Ideas, featuring Žižek alongside journalist Kate Adie, author Jon Ronson, activist Mona Eltahawy, and conservative commentator Greg Sheridan. Topics range from polyamory and sexuality, to psychopathy in power, the Arab Spring and WikiLeaks, and the limits of liberal capitalism. Žižek offers provocative positions throughout: that permissive hedonism paradoxically produces more frigidity, that Buddhist enlightenment can justify violence, that capitalism is implicitly quasi-religious rather than merely egotistical, and that the West's hypocritical response to the Arab Spring reveals an inability to accept what it claims to desire.
every located moment in this recording, click one to read it
The ideas in it 10
in the order they first come up; click a row for what he does with the idea here
as “hedonism as ruling ideology”
Žižek argues that contemporary society commands enjoyment rather than sacrifice, so guilt arises not from transgression but from failing to enjoy.
Most ordinary sex is like masturbation in which the real partner is merely the material support for one's own fantasy; only love breaks this circuit.
In an era of permissiveness where any sexual act is tolerated, the truly transgressive act is falling in love, a naive, unmanaged surrender.
as “zen Buddhism as justification for violence”
Žižek uses the case of D.T. Suzuki and Japanese militarism to show how enlightenment's dissolution of the self can be weaponised to remove the moral weight of killing.
Drawing on Lacan, Žižek defines the psychopathic/mad subject as one who takes his symbolic title literally and fully identifies with it, lacking ironic distance.
Lacan's formulation invoked by Žižek: madness is not only taking a fiction for reality but also failing to maintain the ironic gap in any symbolic role.
as “performative not-knowing (WikiLeaks)”
WikiLeaks matters not because it revealed new facts but because it destroyed the public pretence that those in power do not already know the hypocritical truths they act as if they don't.
Žižek asserts that the appeal to 'life' as a self-evident value (e.g., in criticising Assange for endangering informants) is itself an ideological move.
as “capitalism as perverted religious ethics”
For Žižek, capital's compulsion to circulate regardless of human welfare is not egotism but a quasi-metaphysical imperative that overrides utilitarian concerns.
as “the problems of the commons”
Žižek uses 'commons' to name the structural problems, ecology, shared resources, that require collective solutions unavailable within liberal capitalist frameworks.
Stories he reaches for 3
Žižek observes that contemporary dating and marriage agencies now advertise 'we will enable you to be in love without falling in love', love with all the risk and the fall removed, as a symptom of the colonisation of intimacy by managed safety.
“more and more you have this dating and marriage agencies advertising their services in this way. we will enable you to be in love without falling in love without the fall.”
Heydrich, who organised the Wannsee Conference and the Holocaust, spent his evenings playing Beethoven string quartets with fellow SS officers. Žižek uses this to refute the psychopath label as an explanation for evil, evil coexists with ordinary aesthetic cultivation.
“this guy, if there ever was an evil guy... you know what he was doing in the evenings? he gathered with his ss friends even better, beethoven string quartet.”
The film is reactionary, Žižek argues, because its arc is the Australian speech therapist helping King George VI overcome his ironic self-distance and fully identify with the role of king, precisely the pathology of mad over-identification.
“calling a guy who is a sign of normal... your australian guy teaches him to become stupid enough to believe that he is really a king.”
Works invoked 3
Zen at War book
Žižek describes this book as 'the bible for me', using it to document how the majority of Zen Buddhists in Japan supported and provided religious justification for Japanese military expansionism.
The King's Speech film
Žižek calls it 'an extremely reactionary film' because its narrative arc consists in teaching the king to fully identify with his symbolic role, enacting the pathological over-identification he associates with madness.
Day for Night film
Žižek uses a subplot of Truffaut's film, a boy who panics when a girl simply agrees to sleep with him, as a precise analogy for Western panic at the Arab Spring's fulfilment of Western demands.
People invoked 6
Jacques Lacan positive
Žižek calls Lacan 'my favorite dogmatic reference' and invokes his formulation that a madman is a king who thinks he is a king to analyse psychopathy and ideology.
Mir-Hossein Mousavi positive
Žižek says he was deeply involved in supporting Mousavi in Iran because Mousavi represented an authentic third way, neither Ahmadinejad's corruption nor a simple pro-western liberalism.
Julian Assange positive
Žižek defends Assange as having been extremely restrained with documents; his value is not the revelation of new facts but the destruction of the public performance of ignorance by those in power.
D. T. Suzuki negative
Žižek uses Suzuki as the key case of how Zen Buddhism provided ideological legitimation for Japanese militarist violence and imperialism, framing killing as the cosmic dance of phenomena.
François Truffaut positive
Žižek draws on Truffaut's film Day for Night to illustrate the Western hysteria when Arab democracy actually arrived.
Reinhard Heydrich positive
Cited as evidence that radical evil does not require psychopathy: Heydrich organised the Holocaust yet spent evenings playing Beethoven string quartets.
What it argues
permissive hedonism producing its opposite (frigidity, impotence)the hypocrisy of Western liberal democracy toward Arab uprisingspsychopathy as a structural feature of capitalist institutionsWikiLeaks and the performance of not-knowingcapitalism as quasi-religious ethical compulsion beyond utilitarian egotismnaive love as the true transgression in a permissive eraBuddhist enlightenment as ideological cover for violence
Dialectical moves 8
“The result of permissive times is not freedom to enjoy but its opposite — more frigidity and impotence than ever.”
Permissiveness produces the very inhibition it was supposed to dissolve; liberalisation generates its own symptom.
“What is truly transgressive today is not sex — you can do it with animals — but falling in love.”
In a wholly permissive order, love (not sex) becomes the subversive act because it involves unmanaged risk and genuine vulnerability.
“A madman is not only a beggar who thinks he is a king — a madman is also a king who thinks that he is a king.”
The reversal shows that madness is not misidentification but over-identification: taking one's symbolic title literally without ironic distance.
“Capitalism is not egotism but implicitly, in a perverted way, religiously ethical — capital must circulate even if we all drop dead.”
What looks like selfish profit-seeking is actually an impersonal quasi-metaphysical compulsion that overrides individual welfare.
“What we need against capitalist greed is not Christian morality but good old-fashioned utilitarian egotism.”
The antidote to capitalism's perverse ethics is not a higher moral ideal but the ordinary self-interest that capitalism claims to represent but actually suppresses.
“The West always said it wanted a secular democratic Arab uprising; now that we got it, we are afraid.”
The West's panic at the Arab Spring reveals that its stated desire for democracy was never meant to be fulfilled, the wish and the fear of its realisation coexist.
“WikiLeaks matters not because of what we learned — we really learned nothing new — but because those in power can no longer pretend to act as if this is not going on.”
The scandal is not factual revelation but the destruction of the performative ignorance that sustains ideological complicity.
“The category of life that you are using here is pure ideology.”
Invoking 'life' as an unchallengeable moral trump card is itself an ideological operation, not an innocent appeal to nature.
Claims 15
asserts
Permissive hedonist culture produces more frigidity and impotence, not more enjoyment, because people feel guilty for failing to enjoy.sexuality and permissiveness
asserts
Most sex is 'masturbation with a real partner' — the partner is used to realise one's fantasy; love, not sex, is the truly transgressive act today.love and sexuality
rejects
Dating agencies that promise love without 'falling' — without risk and vulnerability — represent a symptom of the colonisation of intimacy by managed safety.commodified romantic relationships
asserts
Psychopathy is not primarily a trait of individuals but a structural feature: capitalism systemically rewards psychopathic behaviour.capitalism and psychopathy
asserts
Evil does not require psychopathy; Reinhard Heydrich organising the Holocaust while playing Beethoven string quartets shows that ordinary aesthetic sensibility coexists with radical evil.the nature of evil
asserts
Zen Buddhist enlightenment, by dissolving the self and framing acts as impersonal cosmic events, provided genuine ideological justification for Japanese militarist violence.Buddhism and ideology
asserts
The King's Speech is a reactionary film because its narrative teaches a man to fully identify with the symbolic role of king, eliminating the saving ironic distance from it.ideology in popular cinema
asserts
The West's hypocrisy toward the Arab Spring is that it always claimed to want secular democratic uprisings in the Arab world, and when one actually arrived, it panicked.Western hypocrisy and the Arab Spring
rejects
Afghanistan was made fundamentalist by geopolitical intervention; it was not a primitive country in need of civilising but a relatively tolerant, multicultural society forty years ago.civilisational narratives about Afghanistan
asserts
WikiLeaks was important not for what it revealed — which was already known — but for destroying the public performance of not-knowing that legitimises power.WikiLeaks and political hypocrisy
asserts
The most likely outcome in post-Mubarak Egypt is a pact between the army and the Muslim Brotherhood, blessed by the United States as a force of continuity.Egyptian political transition
reframes
Capitalism is not mere egotistical profit-seeking but operates with a perverted quasi-religious ethics in which capital must circulate even if everyone goes bankrupt.the nature of capitalism
asserts
What is needed against capitalist greed is not Christian morality but old-fashioned utilitarian egotism.critique of capitalism
asserts
The problems that historically defined communism — ecology, the commons — have not gone away and cannot be resolved within the liberal-capitalist democratic framework.communism and contemporary crises
asserts
The appeal to 'life' as a trump card against WikiLeaks (endangering informants) is itself ideological rather than a self-evident moral priority.the ideology of 'life' as value
Quotes 10
“today, society doesn't pressure you on to sacrifice yourself or your country, but be authentic, be what you truly are and so on. people today more and more feel guilty not if they give way to their perverse desires, but if you don't enjoy.”Slavoj Žižek · the injunction to enjoy as new superego
“we live in strange times where we are not able to enjoy. sexuality or whatever, you feel guilty. so i think, that's the paradox today we live in permissive times. the result is on the opposite.”Slavoj Žižek · permissiveness producing its own failure
“what is transgressive is not sex. you can do it with animals, with dogs, with cats, no problem. falling in love is a problem.”Slavoj Žižek · love as the true transgression
“a madman is not only a beggar who thinks he is a king. a madman is also a king who thinks that he is a king.”Slavoj Žižek · over-identification as madness (Lacan)
“my knife is dancing around and in the cosmic dance of phenomena your eye seems to stumble upon it.”Slavoj Žižek · Zen enlightenment as alibi for violence
“it's not what we learned. it's that those in power cannot pretend to act as if this is not going on.”Slavoj Žižek · WikiLeaks destroys performative not-knowing
“i think the category of life that you are using here is pure ideology.”Slavoj Žižek · 'life' as ideological trump card
“capitalism is implicitly in a perverted way, religiously ethical. capital must circulate even if we all drop dead.”Slavoj Žižek · capitalism as quasi-religious compulsion
“what we need against capitalist greed is not some christian morality, but good old-fashioned utilitarian egotism.”Slavoj Žižek · utilitarian self-interest as antidote to capitalist ethics
“communism is obviously not an answer, the 20th century communism, but sorry to tell you the problems are here and they will not run away.”Slavoj Žižek · the problems of communism persist beyond communism
Transcript 204 turns
Tony Jones (host)
good evening. and welcome to this special edition of q&a live from the sydney opera house and the festival of dangerous ideas. i'm tony jones and answering your questions tonight, legendary bbc foreign correspondent kate adie. firebrand marxist philosopher Slavoj Žižek. the author of the men who stare at goats and the psychopath test, john ronson, egyptian-born democracy activist Mona Eltahawy, and the foreign editor of the australian, greg sheridan. please welcome our panel. all right, well, q&a is live from 9.35 eastern time. at's simulcarson, abc, news24 and news radio and you can join the twitter conversation using the hashtag that's just appearing on your screen. well, our panel tonight includes some... quite dangerous, think. so let's go straight into peril with our first question from stuart long. this question is related to sexuality. more and more people are openly embracing other forms of sexuality. that are previously considered taboo. for example, polyamory. what is the panelist's opinion of openly embracing these other forms of sexuality as an avenue of releasing previously suppressed sexual energy, hence improving the overall well-being of our society? stuart, can i just keep you on your feet just for a moment? because at least some of our audience are going to wonder what polyamory is. could you just explain that for us? well, the way i understand polyamory, it's why you love more than one person with honesty and integrity. okay, all right, let's start with Kate Adie. .
good evening. and welcome to this special edition of q&a live from the sydney opera house and the festival of dangerous ideas. i'm tony jones and answering your questions tonight, legendary bbc foreign correspondent kate adie. firebrand marxist philosopher Slavoj Žižek. the author of the men who stare at goats and the psychopath test, john ronson, egyptian-born democracy activist Mona Eltahawy, and the foreign editor of the australian, greg sheridan. please welcome our panel. all right, well, q&a is live from 9.35 eastern time. at's simulcarson, abc, news24 and news radio and you can join the twitter conversation using the hashtag that's just appearing on your screen. well, our panel tonight includes some... quite dangerous, think. so let's go straight into peril with our first question from stuart long. this question is related to sexuality. more and more people are openly embracing other forms of sexuality. that are previously considered taboo. for example, polyamory. what is the panelist's opinion of openly embracing these other forms of sexuality as an avenue of releasing previously suppressed sexual energy, hence improving the overall well-being of our society? stuart, can i just keep you on your feet just for a moment? because at least some of our audience are going to wonder what polyamory is. could you just explain that for us? well, the way i understand polyamory, it's why you love more than one person with honesty and integrity. okay, all right, let's start with Kate Adie. .
Kate Adie (panelist)
this time of night, i have to consider this. it's... we live, i hope, in more liberal societies where we don't actually impose rules which were thought up by old men a long time ago. um... i think what you have to do is not think about, gosh, how many different ways you can have different relationships and conduct them. you have to think about what sort of person you are and what you mean to someone and what someone means to you. and never betray. um... don't ever... go out to do something. which will hurt so much just be a loving person and if that takes you into different relationships and you behave decently, i don't think we have too much to worry about.
this time of night, i have to consider this. it's... we live, i hope, in more liberal societies where we don't actually impose rules which were thought up by old men a long time ago. um... i think what you have to do is not think about, gosh, how many different ways you can have different relationships and conduct them. you have to think about what sort of person you are and what you mean to someone and what someone means to you. and never betray. um... don't ever... go out to do something. which will hurt so much just be a loving person and if that takes you into different relationships and you behave decently, i don't think we have too much to worry about.
Slavoj Žižek
sl. i would like to agree with you, but my evil nature pushes me in the opposite direction.
sl. i would like to agree with you, but my evil nature pushes me in the opposite direction.
Kate Adie (panelist)
you don't love me?
you don't love me?
Slavoj Žižek
sorry?
sorry?
Kate Adie (panelist)
they. and love me.
they. and love me.
Slavoj Žižek
i take the fifth amendment. i refuse to answer because the answer may incriminate me and so on. also you pledged to lady gaga, or so they say. this is a mystery. i'm an old conservative who thinks that everything that happened in pop music happened between 65 and 75. that's another story. but listen, you know, we are entering a strange era where hedonism, do you notice, is more and more the ruling ideology. today, society doesn't pressure you on to sacrifice yourself or your country, but be authentic, be what you truly are and so on and so on. my psycho analytic friends are telling me that people today more and more feel guilty not if they give way to their perverse desires, but if you don't enjoy. we live in strange times where we are not able to enjoy. sexuality or whatever, you feel you feel guilty. so i think, and that's the paradox today we live in permissive times. the result is not everybody is happy screwing around words dirty words are permitted you told me the the result is on the opposite. there is more frigidity impotence than ever and so on and so on.
i take the fifth amendment. i refuse to answer because the answer may incriminate me and so on. also you pledged to lady gaga, or so they say. this is a mystery. i'm an old conservative who thinks that everything that happened in pop music happened between 65 and 75. that's another story. but listen, you know, we are entering a strange era where hedonism, do you notice, is more and more the ruling ideology. today, society doesn't pressure you on to sacrifice yourself or your country, but be authentic, be what you truly are and so on and so on. my psycho analytic friends are telling me that people today more and more feel guilty not if they give way to their perverse desires, but if you don't enjoy. we live in strange times where we are not able to enjoy. sexuality or whatever, you feel you feel guilty. so i think, and that's the paradox today we live in permissive times. the result is not everybody is happy screwing around words dirty words are permitted you told me the the result is on the opposite. there is more frigidity impotence than ever and so on and so on.
Jon Ronson (panelist)
isn't it true that you advocate outsourcing sex so other people can have sex?
isn't it true that you advocate outsourcing sex so other people can have sex?
Slavoj Žižek
no, i'm quite romantic here. unfortunately a bad taste joke. what i am advocating quite i love. naive love. i claim i have nothing against sex without love, but i think the structure, like people we usually say what is masturbation you do it to yourself just with the partner you are dreaming about. but what if of mental most of our real sex, i think, is masturbation with the real partner. you have a real partner there, but you just use the real partner to realize your dream. so is all sex like that no it's love. which is why today i claim this is very old-fashioned romantic idea. what is transgressive is not sex. you can do it with animals, with dogs, with cats, no problem. falling in... love is a problem, which is why as i mentioned yesterday, more and more you have this dating and marriage agencies advertising their services in this way. we will enable you to be in love without falling in love without the fall like everything will be safe and so on.avo i'm going
no, i'm quite romantic here. unfortunately a bad taste joke. what i am advocating quite i love. naive love. i claim i have nothing against sex without love, but i think the structure, like people we usually say what is masturbation you do it to yourself just with the partner you are dreaming about. but what if of mental most of our real sex, i think, is masturbation with the real partner. you have a real partner there, but you just use the real partner to realize your dream. so is all sex like that no it's love. which is why today i claim this is very old-fashioned romantic idea. what is transgressive is not sex. you can do it with animals, with dogs, with cats, no problem. falling in... love is a problem, which is why as i mentioned yesterday, more and more you have this dating and marriage agencies advertising their services in this way. we will enable you to be in love without falling in love without the fall like everything will be safe and so on.avo i'm going
Tony Jones (host)
throw to john because you picked up the outsourcing point. do you have your own view? i mean, the question was... search. should. conventional forms of sexuality be race is a means of releasing previously suppressed sexual energy. god. i do. oh.
throw to john because you picked up the outsourcing point. do you have your own view? i mean, the question was... search. should. conventional forms of sexuality be race is a means of releasing previously suppressed sexual energy. god. i do. oh.
Jon Ronson (panelist)
can i just say that i'm glad to be in the centre of the panel because my ideological position is one of uncertainty.
can i just say that i'm glad to be in the centre of the panel because my ideological position is one of uncertainty.
Slavoj Žižek
op opportunistic social democrats who pretend they are on the left, but...
op opportunistic social democrats who pretend they are on the left, but...
Jon Ronson (panelist)
i was a bit disappointed that polyamory was something so nice. i thought it was going to be something like slamming your penis in a filing cabinet.
i was a bit disappointed that polyamory was something so nice. i thought it was going to be something like slamming your penis in a filing cabinet.
Slavoj Žižek
.
.
Jon Ronson (panelist)
i'm in favor of that. ah. but that doesn't sound like a...
i'm in favor of that. ah. but that doesn't sound like a...
Tony Jones (host)
much fun as you make it.
much fun as you make it.
Jon Ronson (panelist)
well, you know, i'm with both Kate and Slavoj on the idea that naive love actually sounds like quite a bad idea, and even a dangerous idea today.
well, you know, i'm with both Kate and Slavoj on the idea that naive love actually sounds like quite a bad idea, and even a dangerous idea today.
Slavoj Žižek
d sí.
d sí.
Tony Jones (host)
let's throw that dangerous idea to mona. what do you think?
let's throw that dangerous idea to mona. what do you think?
Mona Eltahawy (panelist)
well, i think as long as you have consenting adults who are choosing to live this way, but, and this is a huge but, this is something that is open to both men and women. i'm all for it because you'll find, and it's not just islam, but religions like mormonism and others that do allow multiple marriages, the multiplicity is always given to the men. and there is this bizarre idea that men's sex drive is somehow higher than women's and that's just total crap because women have just as much of a sex drive as men do and in many cases women's sex drive outpaces men's sex drive but the way so many people are socialized is that no no no the men have to enjoy as many women as possible because they have this insatiable sex drive whereas women you know you're taught to be good you're taught to be virgile you're taught to be chaste. so in the case of societies where you're socialized like that, i think it's sex is a political act getting out there and getting over the sexual guilt that is put especially on women in conservative societies is a political act. so as long as what you're saying is open to all genders and men and women, if we're now just talking about men and women are able to enjoy that kind of lifestyle equally, i'm all for it. but unfortunately a great deal of hypocrisy goes into this and women are told accept that you know the three or four of you will share this one guy because he's just so insatiable and that's just bullshit. it's not true it's something that it just massages men's egos and it's just
well, i think as long as you have consenting adults who are choosing to live this way, but, and this is a huge but, this is something that is open to both men and women. i'm all for it because you'll find, and it's not just islam, but religions like mormonism and others that do allow multiple marriages, the multiplicity is always given to the men. and there is this bizarre idea that men's sex drive is somehow higher than women's and that's just total crap because women have just as much of a sex drive as men do and in many cases women's sex drive outpaces men's sex drive but the way so many people are socialized is that no no no the men have to enjoy as many women as possible because they have this insatiable sex drive whereas women you know you're taught to be good you're taught to be virgile you're taught to be chaste. so in the case of societies where you're socialized like that, i think it's sex is a political act getting out there and getting over the sexual guilt that is put especially on women in conservative societies is a political act. so as long as what you're saying is open to all genders and men and women, if we're now just talking about men and women are able to enjoy that kind of lifestyle equally, i'm all for it. but unfortunately a great deal of hypocrisy goes into this and women are told accept that you know the three or four of you will share this one guy because he's just so insatiable and that's just bullshit. it's not true it's something that it just massages men's egos and it's just
Tony Jones (host)
let me just quickly jump in there. would polygamy be okay in your view if women were able to take multiple husbands?
let me just quickly jump in there. would polygamy be okay in your view if women were able to take multiple husbands?
Mona Eltahawy (panelist)
yeah, if women could, but the thing is they can't. and so i want to ban polygamy as long as women can't. are you going to be my third husband are you going to be my third husband?.
yeah, if women could, but the thing is they can't. and so i want to ban polygamy as long as women can't. are you going to be my third husband are you going to be my third husband?.
Tony Jones (host)
me on
me on
Slavoj Žižek
shoulder not
shoulder not
Mona Eltahawy (panelist)
yeah of you. .
yeah of you. .
Slavoj Žižek
to please then stop me. i need a domina. no, quite seriously. no don't be too much in love with, i think it's called polyandry, the other way around. you know, they have it in traditional tibet. and i can tell you the explanation is quite a vulgar marxist one. you have a farmer who has four or five sons. the problem is how to prevent... the farm being split, you marry all of them to one woman and it's strictly hier. no, no, it's not you who says in the evening.
to please then stop me. i need a domina. no, quite seriously. no don't be too much in love with, i think it's called polyandry, the other way around. you know, they have it in traditional tibet. and i can tell you the explanation is quite a vulgar marxist one. you have a farmer who has four or five sons. the problem is how to prevent... the farm being split, you marry all of them to one woman and it's strictly hier. no, no, it's not you who says in the evening.
Mona Eltahawy (panelist)
not.
not.
Slavoj Žižek
y.
y.
Mona Eltahawy (panelist)
but, he's not talking about that. he's talking now about getting over these taboos. i understand. and actually, that lifestyle is dying out now as societies like tibet and india become more modernized and people don't live like that anymore. but he's talking about getting over taboos. and for me, the biggest taboo is the this crap that pretends that men have higher sex drives than women.
but, he's not talking about that. he's talking now about getting over these taboos. i understand. and actually, that lifestyle is dying out now as societies like tibet and india become more modernized and people don't live like that anymore. but he's talking about getting over taboos. and for me, the biggest taboo is the this crap that pretends that men have higher sex drives than women.
Tony Jones (host)
i, i want hear from the other end of the panel first dying to get in on this.
i, i want hear from the other end of the panel first dying to get in on this.
Jon Ronson (panelist)
this.
this.
Tony Jones (host)
because he's
because he's
Jon Ronson (panelist)
as far as the.
as far as the.
Kate Adie (panelist)
on the far left of the panel as i am, this is a question which i
on the far left of the panel as i am, this is a question which i
Greg Sheridan (panelist)
catholic boys often contemplate as they grow up and become news limited journalists where of course we're labelled now by bob brown as the love media and everybody knows that we have a loving relationship, a polyamorous relationship with our millions and millions of readers. but look i would just make one think about what you're doing when you're writing your columns. i'm commuting on a higher plane, okay. in fact, the abc asked if they could commission a series at home with the foreign editor, and i said no. i said there have to be limits. but look, i'd like to make one serious point. one of the madnesses of our society is that it can never do anything in balance or in proportion. we are a society determined to take every stupid idea to its most extreme possible conclusion. so we are all of us reacting against the victorian rules. that as kids we read about in english novels. and we spend our whole lives rebelling against these rules which haven't existed for a hundred years. and then we recognize no endpoint, no point of restraint, no point of common sense and no point of balance. i would agree with slavov. i'm an old-fashioned romantic and i think if you just fall in love and stay in love, that's the best thing.
catholic boys often contemplate as they grow up and become news limited journalists where of course we're labelled now by bob brown as the love media and everybody knows that we have a loving relationship, a polyamorous relationship with our millions and millions of readers. but look i would just make one think about what you're doing when you're writing your columns. i'm commuting on a higher plane, okay. in fact, the abc asked if they could commission a series at home with the foreign editor, and i said no. i said there have to be limits. but look, i'd like to make one serious point. one of the madnesses of our society is that it can never do anything in balance or in proportion. we are a society determined to take every stupid idea to its most extreme possible conclusion. so we are all of us reacting against the victorian rules. that as kids we read about in english novels. and we spend our whole lives rebelling against these rules which haven't existed for a hundred years. and then we recognize no endpoint, no point of restraint, no point of common sense and no point of balance. i would agree with slavov. i'm an old-fashioned romantic and i think if you just fall in love and stay in love, that's the best thing.
Tony Jones (host)
okay, i'm going to cut it off on that point of agreement because we can't spend all night talking about sex. we've got other subjects. you're watching q&a where you ask the questions. our next question is mike comes from. you'll get your chance. joseph eland.
okay, i'm going to cut it off on that point of agreement because we can't spend all night talking about sex. we've got other subjects. you're watching q&a where you ask the questions. our next question is mike comes from. you'll get your chance. joseph eland.
Audience Member
can psychopaths integrate into society or is society already full of psychopaths occupying the roles of our leading? highliers and power brokers.
can psychopaths integrate into society or is society already full of psychopaths occupying the roles of our leading? highliers and power brokers.
Jon Ronson (panelist)
okay.
okay.
Audience Member
yeah, john, this is your specialty.
yeah, john, this is your specialty.
Jon Ronson (panelist)
well, i mean, i should start with this statistic. the statistic is, according to hare, the inventor of the checklist, one in a hundred regular walking around people is a psychopath. so there's, i believe there's 300 people in this room, so there's three psychopaths in this room. are they all on the panel? well, i'm rather hoping that they're not the ones sitting behind us. you know, they're not the advantage. so one in hundred regular people is a psychopath, but 4% of ceos are a psychopath, you're four times more likely to have a psychopath at the top than you are to have one as your subordinate because capitalism... rewards psychopathy and this is the problem is that the more ruthlessly i spent time with a man who used to live here called chainsaw al dunlap he used to work with kerry packer and he allowed me to do, he was a ruthless asset stripper he allowed me to do the psychopath checklist on him. so i went through it. i said, okay, grandio sense of self-worth, which would have been hard for him to deny because he was standing underneath a giant oil painting of himself at the time. said god, i believe in you. and he kind of went through the checklist and identified many of the items on the psychopath checklist as business positives that are rewarded in our capitalist system. that's the problem. the problem isn't so much the kind of maverick, ruthless psychopaths in charge. it's the system that rewards them and cheers them on. and the more psychopathically people like al dunlap behaved, the more the share prices shot up. and you only have to look at the american healthcare system, for instance. to see that it's a system that echoes the psychopath checklist. it's a real problem..
well, i mean, i should start with this statistic. the statistic is, according to hare, the inventor of the checklist, one in a hundred regular walking around people is a psychopath. so there's, i believe there's 300 people in this room, so there's three psychopaths in this room. are they all on the panel? well, i'm rather hoping that they're not the ones sitting behind us. you know, they're not the advantage. so one in hundred regular people is a psychopath, but 4% of ceos are a psychopath, you're four times more likely to have a psychopath at the top than you are to have one as your subordinate because capitalism... rewards psychopathy and this is the problem is that the more ruthlessly i spent time with a man who used to live here called chainsaw al dunlap he used to work with kerry packer and he allowed me to do, he was a ruthless asset stripper he allowed me to do the psychopath checklist on him. so i went through it. i said, okay, grandio sense of self-worth, which would have been hard for him to deny because he was standing underneath a giant oil painting of himself at the time. said god, i believe in you. and he kind of went through the checklist and identified many of the items on the psychopath checklist as business positives that are rewarded in our capitalist system. that's the problem. the problem isn't so much the kind of maverick, ruthless psychopaths in charge. it's the system that rewards them and cheers them on. and the more psychopathically people like al dunlap behaved, the more the share prices shot up. and you only have to look at the american healthcare system, for instance. to see that it's a system that echoes the psychopath checklist. it's a real problem..
Tony Jones (host)
question question that's come in via our facebook page. it's from rob kry and it's for john ronson. how can we recognize a psychopath in politics? before we vote for a politician, what signs, behavioural and verbal, should worry us that they may be a psychopath.
question question that's come in via our facebook page. it's from rob kry and it's for john ronson. how can we recognize a psychopath in politics? before we vote for a politician, what signs, behavioural and verbal, should worry us that they may be a psychopath.
Jon Ronson (panelist)
okay, well, it's a 20-point checklist. you've got grandiosity, you've got... glibness, superficial charm. i mean, so far we're with all politicians, right? you've got lack of remorse and lack of empathy, again, most politicians. are you putting your hand up as somebody who's like fessing up to this?
okay, well, it's a 20-point checklist. you've got grandiosity, you've got... glibness, superficial charm. i mean, so far we're with all politicians, right? you've got lack of remorse and lack of empathy, again, most politicians. are you putting your hand up as somebody who's like fessing up to this?
Tony Jones (host)
no, no, he wants to make a comment and you can.
no, no, he wants to make a comment and you can.
Audience Member
in fairness, john, i read the hair psychopathy checklist before coming here tonight, and i did want to ask you in your considered opinion. is our prime minister a psychopath?
in fairness, john, i read the hair psychopathy checklist before coming here tonight, and i did want to ask you in your considered opinion. is our prime minister a psychopath?
Jon Ronson (panelist)
you know what? i'm not going to start. i think it's.
you know what? i'm not going to start. i think it's.
Audience Member
come. .
come. .
Jon Ronson (panelist)
i think it's unlikeable to diagnose people without having met them.. i mean, that's the truthful answer. i think it's for the extremes. what about hitler and stalin, psychopaths? well, i think know if you've got a kind of grotesque costume, a kind of uniform that's kind of garish, plus a penchant for genocide, that's a big point. so if you get them on to the subject of empathy, what they hate is weakness. they hate weakness. and so if you can get them to talk about how empathy really is a weakness, that's a big clue. however, i don't want people to get drunk with power. i don't want people to read either my book or the hair checklist and become like i did, a power-c crazed psychopath spotter because that can turn you a little bit psychopathic. so be slightly wary of that.
i think it's unlikeable to diagnose people without having met them.. i mean, that's the truthful answer. i think it's for the extremes. what about hitler and stalin, psychopaths? well, i think know if you've got a kind of grotesque costume, a kind of uniform that's kind of garish, plus a penchant for genocide, that's a big point. so if you get them on to the subject of empathy, what they hate is weakness. they hate weakness. and so if you can get them to talk about how empathy really is a weakness, that's a big clue. however, i don't want people to get drunk with power. i don't want people to read either my book or the hair checklist and become like i did, a power-c crazed psychopath spotter because that can turn you a little bit psychopathic. so be slightly wary of that.
Tony Jones (host)
let's hear from this panel. kate was going to.
let's hear from this panel. kate was going to.
Kate Adie (panelist)
what does it profit us to actually label people as psychopaths, to actually analyze and say they are psychopaths, partly because to me you seem to be describing the kind of ruthless bastards who get to the top in every kind of walk of life.
what does it profit us to actually label people as psychopaths, to actually analyze and say they are psychopaths, partly because to me you seem to be describing the kind of ruthless bastards who get to the top in every kind of walk of life.
Tony Jones (host)
yeah.
yeah.
Kate Adie (panelist)
and if you're going to label them and say these are psychopaths, what are you going to propose to do about it? do they live in a pen somewhere saying don't let them out, don't give them something to wrong?
and if you're going to label them and say these are psychopaths, what are you going to propose to do about it? do they live in a pen somewhere saying don't let them out, don't give them something to wrong?
Jon Ronson (panelist)
no, no, you don't do that. and in fact, they are trying to do that in america. they are trying to, people who are coming up for parole are being scored on the psych check.
no, no, you don't do that. and in fact, they are trying to do that in america. they are trying to, people who are coming up for parole are being scored on the psych check.
Kate Adie (panelist)
i. okay.
i. okay.
Jon Ronson (panelist)
i totally agree with you. lab is clearly in our society a tyrannical and problematic thing. however, psychopathy exists. it's a difficult cured. and the evidence is that it can't be cured unless you get them them it's a very real thing.
i totally agree with you. lab is clearly in our society a tyrannical and problematic thing. however, psychopathy exists. it's a difficult cured. and the evidence is that it can't be cured unless you get them them it's a very real thing.
Tony Jones (host)
we might have an answer.
we might have an answer.
Jon Ronson (panelist)
five.
five.
Tony Jones (host)
okay.
okay.
Slavoj Žižek
i see things in a much more... would you agree or not? it's a so-called serious question. when we talk about people like hitler and so on. listen, i read a book on the history of ss ss, german. and especially a chapter on reinhard hedrich. he organized, you know, van conference, holocaust, and so on. what strikes me so much is that, you know what? this guy, if there ever was an evil guy skin, you know what he was doing in the evenings? he gathered with his ss friends even better, beethoven string quartet.
i see things in a much more... would you agree or not? it's a so-called serious question. when we talk about people like hitler and so on. listen, i read a book on the history of ss ss, german. and especially a chapter on reinhard hedrich. he organized, you know, van conference, holocaust, and so on. what strikes me so much is that, you know what? this guy, if there ever was an evil guy skin, you know what he was doing in the evenings? he gathered with his ss friends even better, beethoven string quartet.
Audience Member
mm.
mm.
Slavoj Žižek
and i think that's the really tragic, depressing thing. you cannot say, oh, they must have gotten it wrong or whatever. no, the tragic lesson of history is, and i can go on through like read a book which is the bible for me, brian victoria, a zen monk, it's called zen et war. it demonstrates how the large majority of zen buddhists in japan not only totally supported japanese military expansionism, but provided the properly zen buddhist justification for it. to amuse you very shortly, you know dt, daisitar suzukin, we are young hippies, the glorious propagator in the hippie west of buddhism. he not only fully supported japanese invasion of china, but he faced this problem. i have to kill you in war. he said, if i remain caught in the illusion of maya, ordinary reality, i perceive myself as an agent killing you. i may hate you, who knows, but it's difficult for me. then he says, if you go through a buddhist enlightenment, you see that you have no self. you became a passive observer of your acts and i no longer perceive me. stabbing a knife into your eye is my act, but just as he puts it, my knife is dancing around and in the cosmic dance of phenomena your eye seems to stumble upon it. what past or not this now a more tragic phenomenon. you know
and i think that's the really tragic, depressing thing. you cannot say, oh, they must have gotten it wrong or whatever. no, the tragic lesson of history is, and i can go on through like read a book which is the bible for me, brian victoria, a zen monk, it's called zen et war. it demonstrates how the large majority of zen buddhists in japan not only totally supported japanese military expansionism, but provided the properly zen buddhist justification for it. to amuse you very shortly, you know dt, daisitar suzukin, we are young hippies, the glorious propagator in the hippie west of buddhism. he not only fully supported japanese invasion of china, but he faced this problem. i have to kill you in war. he said, if i remain caught in the illusion of maya, ordinary reality, i perceive myself as an agent killing you. i may hate you, who knows, but it's difficult for me. then he says, if you go through a buddhist enlightenment, you see that you have no self. you became a passive observer of your acts and i no longer perceive me. stabbing a knife into your eye is my act, but just as he puts it, my knife is dancing around and in the cosmic dance of phenomena your eye seems to stumble upon it. what past or not this now a more tragic phenomenon. you know
Tony Jones (host)
we find people like i'm just putting my pen on this. let's hear from john.
we find people like i'm just putting my pen on this. let's hear from john.
Slavoj Žižek
just one more, then i will stop. one more. the main definition of psychopath for me is also... a person who is to identify with what he is. like, for example, Jacques Lacan, my favorite dogmatic reference, he said something very nice. he said, a madman is not only a beggar who thinks he is a king. a madman is also a king who thinks that he is a king. and i think this is why i think that king's speech, i wonder if you will agree, it's an extremely reactionary film. it is the story of, no, we know. he's a good normal guy. it's a very long story. no, no, no, no,. you know, calling a guy who is a sign of normal. he knows it's stupid to be a king. and your australian guy teaches him to become stupid enough to believe that he is really a king. okay.
just one more, then i will stop. one more. the main definition of psychopath for me is also... a person who is to identify with what he is. like, for example, Jacques Lacan, my favorite dogmatic reference, he said something very nice. he said, a madman is not only a beggar who thinks he is a king. a madman is also a king who thinks that he is a king. and i think this is why i think that king's speech, i wonder if you will agree, it's an extremely reactionary film. it is the story of, no, we know. he's a good normal guy. it's a very long story. no, no, no, no,. you know, calling a guy who is a sign of normal. he knows it's stupid to be a king. and your australian guy teaches him to become stupid enough to believe that he is really a king. okay.
Tony Jones (host)
okay.
okay.
Slavoj Žižek
all right, all right.
all right, all right.
Tony Jones (host)
and, and we're here from the other side of the.
and, and we're here from the other side of the.
Jon Ronson (panelist)
okay, i'm going to answer the two questions very briefly. yes, saying that this person's eye got in the way of my knife is an indication of psychopathy because they do tend to blame the victim. and the answer to kate's question is, you know, i completely sympathize with the notion that mental health lab is a very, very difficult and, in worst case tyrannical thing. however, psychopathy exists. it's a real condition and i think know one shouldn't shy away. from the really understanding the crazy ways we behave when our brains go wrong and what do you do with them. the answer is of course you don't lock them up. you don't end up like some villain in a orwell novel. what you do is you just be aware, you just be wary. you just don't let them... faculty.
okay, i'm going to answer the two questions very briefly. yes, saying that this person's eye got in the way of my knife is an indication of psychopathy because they do tend to blame the victim. and the answer to kate's question is, you know, i completely sympathize with the notion that mental health lab is a very, very difficult and, in worst case tyrannical thing. however, psychopathy exists. it's a real condition and i think know one shouldn't shy away. from the really understanding the crazy ways we behave when our brains go wrong and what do you do with them. the answer is of course you don't lock them up. you don't end up like some villain in a orwell novel. what you do is you just be aware, you just be wary. you just don't let them... faculty.
Tony Jones (host)
let's hear from greg sheridan. you've dealt with an awful lot of australian politicians. have you ever noticed any that exhibit psychopathic tendencies?
let's hear from greg sheridan. you've dealt with an awful lot of australian politicians. have you ever noticed any that exhibit psychopathic tendencies?
Greg Sheridan (panelist)
tony, i've interviewed and written about a lot of psychopaths in my time, but let me give you the two ends of the spectrum. normally when you interview a politician, you start with flattery, and no matter how outrageous the flattery, it's never enough. you say, kevin, tony, whoever, you're the greatest oratorist since cicero. and the response is, why do you think cicero was so great? but i interviewed once manmohan singh, the prime minister of india. and i started with my flattery. you've changed the course of the river of indian human life with your economic reforms. his response was, if you're going to talk rubbish like that, leave now. if you want to talk about economic policy, you can stay. now, the other end of the spectrum, i spent an evening... once with saif gaddafi, muammed gaddafi's most famous son.
tony, i've interviewed and written about a lot of psychopaths in my time, but let me give you the two ends of the spectrum. normally when you interview a politician, you start with flattery, and no matter how outrageous the flattery, it's never enough. you say, kevin, tony, whoever, you're the greatest oratorist since cicero. and the response is, why do you think cicero was so great? but i interviewed once manmohan singh, the prime minister of india. and i started with my flattery. you've changed the course of the river of indian human life with your economic reforms. his response was, if you're going to talk rubbish like that, leave now. if you want to talk about economic policy, you can stay. now, the other end of the spectrum, i spent an evening... once with saif gaddafi, muammed gaddafi's most famous son.
Slavoj Žižek
the doctor from lsc.
the doctor from lsc.
Greg Sheridan (panelist)
yeah, lse and great artist and, you know, hole in one seven times, swam, you know, 100 miles in eight minutes and so on. and during the course of our interview, i said, what's it like being colonel gaddafi's son? he said to me, well, you know, our dad doesn't realize that we're just normal libyan kids. we like to ski in switzerland, shop in paris, just like every other normal libyan. and i thought, there's a guy who doesn't have much empathy. so i'm glad Manmohan Singh is prime minister and saif gaddafi is. not.
yeah, lse and great artist and, you know, hole in one seven times, swam, you know, 100 miles in eight minutes and so on. and during the course of our interview, i said, what's it like being colonel gaddafi's son? he said to me, well, you know, our dad doesn't realize that we're just normal libyan kids. we like to ski in switzerland, shop in paris, just like every other normal libyan. and i thought, there's a guy who doesn't have much empathy. so i'm glad Manmohan Singh is prime minister and saif gaddafi is. not.
Tony Jones (host)
no, no let's hear from mona because there have been an awful lot of psych in the dictatorships of the middle east, saddam hussein... the assad, father and son, gaddafi has just been named.
no, no let's hear from mona because there have been an awful lot of psych in the dictatorships of the middle east, saddam hussein... the assad, father and son, gaddafi has just been named.
Mona Eltahawy (panelist)
i did not meet saddam hussein. i attended news conferences with senior and junior assad, but i want to share my gaddafi story, which i travel around the world with. and it has more to do with sex than psychopathy, but why not? we'll combine both questions. and it ties in exactly with this, our father, not so much the sons, but the guards, and not the female guards of gaddafi. and i call it nipplegate because i was attending a news conference in libya in 1996 when it was she a colleague, a former colleague she still works for the bbc. we saw gaddafi standing on a podium. standing by himself, so me and my friend from the bbc went to ask him some questions and he said yes, yes, you can ask us and he's standing on the podium. and a news conference, impromptu news conference. and then all of a sudden, the psychopaths from the ministry of information. now, these are the minders who follow you around. we were talking about china earlier. these are the minders who follow you around in libya. tried to push me out and someone tried to grab my tape recorder so i bit his hand. and this is all being filmed in the news conference. and then one of the male bodyguards. and again, this is an indication of just how, when a psychopath is at the top, it trickles down. i mean, the economy in libya didn't trickle down, but the madness certainly did. and so the guard is standing there with his ak-47 and he's trying to push me out. and i push him back, he pushes me, i push him back, and then he twisted my nipple in the middle of the news conference, just like that. t twister, i think it's called.
i did not meet saddam hussein. i attended news conferences with senior and junior assad, but i want to share my gaddafi story, which i travel around the world with. and it has more to do with sex than psychopathy, but why not? we'll combine both questions. and it ties in exactly with this, our father, not so much the sons, but the guards, and not the female guards of gaddafi. and i call it nipplegate because i was attending a news conference in libya in 1996 when it was she a colleague, a former colleague she still works for the bbc. we saw gaddafi standing on a podium. standing by himself, so me and my friend from the bbc went to ask him some questions and he said yes, yes, you can ask us and he's standing on the podium. and a news conference, impromptu news conference. and then all of a sudden, the psychopaths from the ministry of information. now, these are the minders who follow you around. we were talking about china earlier. these are the minders who follow you around in libya. tried to push me out and someone tried to grab my tape recorder so i bit his hand. and this is all being filmed in the news conference. and then one of the male bodyguards. and again, this is an indication of just how, when a psychopath is at the top, it trickles down. i mean, the economy in libya didn't trickle down, but the madness certainly did. and so the guard is standing there with his ak-47 and he's trying to push me out. and i push him back, he pushes me, i push him back, and then he twisted my nipple in the middle of the news conference, just like that. t twister, i think it's called.
Kate Adie (panelist)
and i'm sitting going, what the fuck?
and i'm sitting going, what the fuck?
Tony Jones (host)
oh my god!
oh my god!
Mona Eltahawy (panelist)
and so i turn to mohammed gaddafi, who in egypt we call brother colonel, because he took over from the king. he got rid of the king in a coup. he was a captain. he promoted himself to colonel, not to general, so his ego wasn't that crazy, but just a colonel. and in egypt, we call him brother colonel, akhl akid. so i'm like, akhl akid, akhl akid, look what he's doing to me. and gaddafi and i make eye contact for about five seconds. and i thought, you know, he's going to jump in with his you know, arab pride and arab chivalry and say, how dare you violate the honour of my arab sister? and he just looks at me and then just continues like nothing is happening. and i thought these people are fucking lunatics. and so i push the guy and i kick him and it goes on and on. and then the news conference finishes. my press badge has disappeared. so i thought, okay, this madness was because they want to get rid of my press badge. then this algerian journalist comes up to me and he's like, mona, are you okay? are you okay? i go, did you see what you did to me? he goes, they were saying, just shoot her, just shoot her. so i share this story because again, when the mad, when the psychopathy is up there and it's not checked, it goes not just into the sun, but it goes into everybody. it poisons the water.
and so i turn to mohammed gaddafi, who in egypt we call brother colonel, because he took over from the king. he got rid of the king in a coup. he was a captain. he promoted himself to colonel, not to general, so his ego wasn't that crazy, but just a colonel. and in egypt, we call him brother colonel, akhl akid. so i'm like, akhl akid, akhl akid, look what he's doing to me. and gaddafi and i make eye contact for about five seconds. and i thought, you know, he's going to jump in with his you know, arab pride and arab chivalry and say, how dare you violate the honour of my arab sister? and he just looks at me and then just continues like nothing is happening. and i thought these people are fucking lunatics. and so i push the guy and i kick him and it goes on and on. and then the news conference finishes. my press badge has disappeared. so i thought, okay, this madness was because they want to get rid of my press badge. then this algerian journalist comes up to me and he's like, mona, are you okay? are you okay? i go, did you see what you did to me? he goes, they were saying, just shoot her, just shoot her. so i share this story because again, when the mad, when the psychopathy is up there and it's not checked, it goes not just into the sun, but it goes into everybody. it poisons the water.
Kate Adie (panelist)
it's not so much psychopathy. having interviewed gaddafi a number of times, and who wants i decided people.
it's not so much psychopathy. having interviewed gaddafi a number of times, and who wants i decided people.
Mona Eltahawy (panelist)
it c.
it c.
Kate Adie (panelist)
um... i mean i worked out he wasn't really bright enough to actually belong to your pantheon of psychopaths. what actually keeps a lot of people who are in power there, what trickles down is not a psychopathic attitude, it's fear. there is in all people who attain a certain amount of power over others, it then begins to accrete. it then spreads and everybody gets more and more scared. all the little minions around him just quaked. i once saw a number of ministers in front of him. he came into the room. one of them was so scared. that he shook so much he fell over in sheer fear. it's not that they become psychopaths, it's that a lot of very powerful people maintain their style, their power, because they actually threaten other people. they don't change their character. they just make them scared.
um... i mean i worked out he wasn't really bright enough to actually belong to your pantheon of psychopaths. what actually keeps a lot of people who are in power there, what trickles down is not a psychopathic attitude, it's fear. there is in all people who attain a certain amount of power over others, it then begins to accrete. it then spreads and everybody gets more and more scared. all the little minions around him just quaked. i once saw a number of ministers in front of him. he came into the room. one of them was so scared. that he shook so much he fell over in sheer fear. it's not that they become psychopaths, it's that a lot of very powerful people maintain their style, their power, because they actually threaten other people. they don't change their character. they just make them scared.
Tony Jones (host)
i'm going to interrupt there because let's move on to the moment where that fear seems to have evaporated in the middle east. we've got a few questions on this subject. this is a q&a. it's live and interactive. our next question comes from... farid, farid.
i'm going to interrupt there because let's move on to the moment where that fear seems to have evaporated in the middle east. we've got a few questions on this subject. this is a q&a. it's live and interactive. our next question comes from... farid, farid.
Audience Member
this is professor zijik. you've been compared most recently in an al jazeera op-ed, maybe unfavorably, to muammar gaddafi for being out of touch and sticking to an old ideological worldview when faced with the rapid changes undergone in the arab uprisings. what is your view now of what's happening in the middle east? and do you think what is commonly called as the arab spring has turned into an arab winter of discontent?
this is professor zijik. you've been compared most recently in an al jazeera op-ed, maybe unfavorably, to muammar gaddafi for being out of touch and sticking to an old ideological worldview when faced with the rapid changes undergone in the arab uprisings. what is your view now of what's happening in the middle east? and do you think what is commonly called as the arab spring has turned into an arab winter of discontent?
Slavoj Žižek
first, i would like to know the precise nature of that. in what sense was i compared with gaddafi? my only link with gaddafi is my french enemies from... libyan school of economics, once called london school of economics, were attacking me as being totalitarian or what? my god. i mean, they were getting all the money from gaddafi and so
first, i would like to know the precise nature of that. in what sense was i compared with gaddafi? my only link with gaddafi is my french enemies from... libyan school of economics, once called london school of economics, were attacking me as being totalitarian or what? my god. i mean, they were getting all the money from gaddafi and so
Tony Jones (host)
it was sort of analogy by al jazeera saying you were as out of touch as gaddafi.
it was sort of analogy by al jazeera saying you were as out of touch as gaddafi.
Slavoj Žižek
really out of touch with what? my public reaction to arab spring was a text published by guardian on Tahrir Square miracle and so on where i absolutely emphasized what i think is crucial. the western okay hypocrisy, everybody knows this but what type of hypocrisy listen this was my metaphor. the official desire of the west all the time was, oh my god, the only way to mobilize arab people is through religion, anti-semitism, fanaticism and so on. if only there were to be some secular, purely democratic uprising. now that we got it, we are afraid. like what's going on, new dangers and so on. and i compare this in my tasteless nature, since we talk about sex, did you see franancoçois trifaut's film day for night, where it's a side story a young boy wants to sleep with a girl, finally they are alone and he tells her, okay now we are alone, by a late, let's do it quickly and so on. oh i'm dreaming for years to screw you and the girl simply says, okay, why not and starts to unbutton her trousers. and he is in total panic like, how? do you mean just like that or whatever? aren't we a little bit like that towards egypt, i mean? you know why? because they did what we demanded from them and the result is shock. so the tragedy is another one. my hope is with tahrir square. my hope is with musavi. i was deeply involved supporting musavi in iran. why? because musavi precisely was the way i see it and i know very well situation. there. she is definitely not the ahmadinejad corruption, but she is also not a so-called pro-western liberal and so on. she's something authentically third way, which is why we in the west had such difficulties to place where does she belong, musavi? for some people it's the same as ahmadinejad, it doesn't matter. so again, all my admiration goes to tir square and my whole point was precisely don't assimilate it into a simple pro-western uprising and so on and so on.
really out of touch with what? my public reaction to arab spring was a text published by guardian on Tahrir Square miracle and so on where i absolutely emphasized what i think is crucial. the western okay hypocrisy, everybody knows this but what type of hypocrisy listen this was my metaphor. the official desire of the west all the time was, oh my god, the only way to mobilize arab people is through religion, anti-semitism, fanaticism and so on. if only there were to be some secular, purely democratic uprising. now that we got it, we are afraid. like what's going on, new dangers and so on. and i compare this in my tasteless nature, since we talk about sex, did you see franancoçois trifaut's film day for night, where it's a side story a young boy wants to sleep with a girl, finally they are alone and he tells her, okay now we are alone, by a late, let's do it quickly and so on. oh i'm dreaming for years to screw you and the girl simply says, okay, why not and starts to unbutton her trousers. and he is in total panic like, how? do you mean just like that or whatever? aren't we a little bit like that towards egypt, i mean? you know why? because they did what we demanded from them and the result is shock. so the tragedy is another one. my hope is with tahrir square. my hope is with musavi. i was deeply involved supporting musavi in iran. why? because musavi precisely was the way i see it and i know very well situation. there. she is definitely not the ahmadinejad corruption, but she is also not a so-called pro-western liberal and so on. she's something authentically third way, which is why we in the west had such difficulties to place where does she belong, musavi? for some people it's the same as ahmadinejad, it doesn't matter. so again, all my admiration goes to tir square and my whole point was precisely don't assimilate it into a simple pro-western uprising and so on and so on.
Mona Eltahawy (panelist)
you, you know why the west, so-called west, is having such a hard time with this? because for such a long time they only saw the people from the middle east and north africa, where i come from, as either psychopaths and dictators or lunatic fundamentalists. and the rest of us who were in the middle and kept saying, look, hello, there's a whole bunch of us here.
you, you know why the west, so-called west, is having such a hard time with this? because for such a long time they only saw the people from the middle east and north africa, where i come from, as either psychopaths and dictators or lunatic fundamentalists. and the rest of us who were in the middle and kept saying, look, hello, there's a whole bunch of us here.
Tony Jones (host)
is having a hard time with this one. the other way of looking at it would be that many in the west are sighing with relief.
is having a hard time with this one. the other way of looking at it would be that many in the west are sighing with relief.
Mona Eltahawy (panelist)
i
i
Tony Jones (host)
he's finally coming to these countries.
he's finally coming to these countries.
Mona Eltahawy (panelist)
let me tell you.
let me tell you.
Tony Jones (host)
necessarily talking about the leaders that back the dictators.
necessarily talking about the leaders that back the dictators.
Mona Eltahawy (panelist)
yes me tell you what happens when i give these talks in various american campuses. i get questions like, what in the egyptian fabric prepares you for freedom? like we're some kind of fucking barbarians who don't know how to live our own lives. and the reason that we have been unable to live our own lives in our countries is because these very people who elected these very governments stood in our way and they knew it. and i want to talk about the leaders though because the united states right now, just four or five days ago, they called our supreme council of mubarak, which are 19 military men who currently run egypt all mubarak's friends. hillary clinton called them a force of stability and continuity. just what she used to call mubarak. the united states is about to sell bahrain $53 million of weapons to do what? kill its own people. and the united states says we're doing this because bahrain is a force of continuity and stability. and american people do not, i mean not just american people, but the whole point of my lecture here yesterday for anyone who attended, for those who didn't attend, it was called hypocrisy. with democracy. right here in australia too, you guys are having a hard time because you guys also are scared of the muslim men with beards because you guys do not see the nuances of where i come from. it's not just in america.
yes me tell you what happens when i give these talks in various american campuses. i get questions like, what in the egyptian fabric prepares you for freedom? like we're some kind of fucking barbarians who don't know how to live our own lives. and the reason that we have been unable to live our own lives in our countries is because these very people who elected these very governments stood in our way and they knew it. and i want to talk about the leaders though because the united states right now, just four or five days ago, they called our supreme council of mubarak, which are 19 military men who currently run egypt all mubarak's friends. hillary clinton called them a force of stability and continuity. just what she used to call mubarak. the united states is about to sell bahrain $53 million of weapons to do what? kill its own people. and the united states says we're doing this because bahrain is a force of continuity and stability. and american people do not, i mean not just american people, but the whole point of my lecture here yesterday for anyone who attended, for those who didn't attend, it was called hypocrisy. with democracy. right here in australia too, you guys are having a hard time because you guys also are scared of the muslim men with beards because you guys do not see the nuances of where i come from. it's not just in america.
Tony Jones (host)
that that to greg sheridan to see if he agrees with you.
that that to greg sheridan to see if he agrees with you.
Greg Sheridan (panelist)
well, um... you know, i don't want to be a party pooper here and spoil the good fun, but we actually have to take each of these countries separately and the situations are very complicated and they're very contested. we don't know how to feel about the arab spring yet because we don't know how it's going to work out. one thing that we don't discuss very often is that the egyptian economy
well, um... you know, i don't want to be a party pooper here and spoil the good fun, but we actually have to take each of these countries separately and the situations are very complicated and they're very contested. we don't know how to feel about the arab spring yet because we don't know how it's going to work out. one thing that we don't discuss very often is that the egyptian economy
Tony Jones (host)
support democracy though don't we so we know about that we know that much don't we
support democracy though don't we so we know about that we know that much don't we
Greg Sheridan (panelist)
of course, but the mere fact that somebody votes for you doesn't make you a good guy. a lot of people voted for adolf hitler. it doesn't make him a good guy. one thing we don't discuss in egypt.
of course, but the mere fact that somebody votes for you doesn't make you a good guy. a lot of people voted for adolf hitler. it doesn't make him a good guy. one thing we don't discuss in egypt.
Tony Jones (host)
let me just ask you very briefly, would you rather see mubarak still there because of the stability? that.
let me just ask you very briefly, would you rather see mubarak still there because of the stability? that.
Greg Sheridan (panelist)
certainly not. and there's a lot to be encouraged about about the arab spring and wonderful people, liberals, friends of mine, are involved in it and working their guts out. but two points i want to make to you, tony. one is that the egyptian economy is absolutely on the rack and eventually every political system, whether it's democracy or something else, has to deliver something to its people. one of the things it has to deliver is bread. the second point i'd make is that the situation in egypt and in all those north african countries is fiercely contested. and some of the people i'm privileged to know who are great people who are involved in the contest, and some of the people in the contest have very evil ideologies the people who who
certainly not. and there's a lot to be encouraged about about the arab spring and wonderful people, liberals, friends of mine, are involved in it and working their guts out. but two points i want to make to you, tony. one is that the egyptian economy is absolutely on the rack and eventually every political system, whether it's democracy or something else, has to deliver something to its people. one of the things it has to deliver is bread. the second point i'd make is that the situation in egypt and in all those north african countries is fiercely contested. and some of the people i'm privileged to know who are great people who are involved in the contest, and some of the people in the contest have very evil ideologies the people who who
Mona Eltahawy (panelist)
who has the evil ideology?
who has the evil ideology?
Greg Sheridan (panelist)
well, i think the muslim brotherhood, according to my friend Tarek Heggy, is unreformed, its moderation is fake, it's temporary, and it's tactical. and it's internally split. i understand there are a lot of nuances, you can't do it all in a short tv program, but there are a lot of diehard, serious islamists there, filled with extremist ideology.
well, i think the muslim brotherhood, according to my friend Tarek Heggy, is unreformed, its moderation is fake, it's temporary, and it's tactical. and it's internally split. i understand there are a lot of nuances, you can't do it all in a short tv program, but there are a lot of diehard, serious islamists there, filled with extremist ideology.
Mona Eltahawy (panelist)
but let's talk about the muslim brotherhood getting into parliament, which they will, because they will be voted in because they are egyptian and they represent a good number of egyptians. they don't represent me. i'm not a member of the muslim brotherhood. i would vote for someone else.
but let's talk about the muslim brotherhood getting into parliament, which they will, because they will be voted in because they are egyptian and they represent a good number of egyptians. they don't represent me. i'm not a member of the muslim brotherhood. i would vote for someone else.
Greg Sheridan (panelist)
well, according to them, you're never allowed to be president because you're a woman.
well, according to them, you're never allowed to be president because you're a woman.
Mona Eltahawy (panelist)
and that's wrong. and if they don't change that platform and that platform that point in their platform is coming under a great deal of attack by young members of the muslim brotherhood. but let's talk about the muslim brotherhood. entering parliament, the muslim brotherhood will then have to deliver to the people who voted for them. the muslim brotherhood and whoever else is in the egyptian parliament will have to fix roads, will have to fix subway lines, will have to fix the curriculum. i.e. they will have to be politicians. what concerns me as an egyptian who is secular and liberal and not going to vote for the muslim brotherhood is that we have a constitution that guarantees i can vote them in and vote them out. so you can't just sit there and say the muslim brotherhood is evil. no, the muslim brotherhood will be evil if they don't deliver on what the constituents want them to deliver. so hope that democracy works.
and that's wrong. and if they don't change that platform and that platform that point in their platform is coming under a great deal of attack by young members of the muslim brotherhood. but let's talk about the muslim brotherhood. entering parliament, the muslim brotherhood will then have to deliver to the people who voted for them. the muslim brotherhood and whoever else is in the egyptian parliament will have to fix roads, will have to fix subway lines, will have to fix the curriculum. i.e. they will have to be politicians. what concerns me as an egyptian who is secular and liberal and not going to vote for the muslim brotherhood is that we have a constitution that guarantees i can vote them in and vote them out. so you can't just sit there and say the muslim brotherhood is evil. no, the muslim brotherhood will be evil if they don't deliver on what the constituents want them to deliver. so hope that democracy works.
Tony Jones (host)
i tell to interrupt this dialogue. give h.
i tell to interrupt this dialogue. give h.
Kate Adie (panelist)
i do think that we have a contemporary habit of expecting democracy to spring instantly. if you look at iraq and afghanistan, it's going to take. a long time, particularly in afghanistan. and i think we expect it. we expect next week somebody to get parliamentary elections. we expect people to sort out political parties a la western states. it's not going to happen like that. we took 800 years in britain to get from a king running everything. with the religious people right next to him laying down the law to a form of parliamentary democracy. it took us 800 years.
i do think that we have a contemporary habit of expecting democracy to spring instantly. if you look at iraq and afghanistan, it's going to take. a long time, particularly in afghanistan. and i think we expect it. we expect next week somebody to get parliamentary elections. we expect people to sort out political parties a la western states. it's not going to happen like that. we took 800 years in britain to get from a king running everything. with the religious people right next to him laying down the law to a form of parliamentary democracy. it took us 800 years.
Tony Jones (host)
hang on, we've got a couple of people in the audience with their hands up. yes, you will, but i want to hear from our audience as well. so a quick comment from both of these two people with their hands up, starting with you.
hang on, we've got a couple of people in the audience with their hands up. yes, you will, but i want to hear from our audience as well. so a quick comment from both of these two people with their hands up, starting with you.
Audience Member
yes, mr. sheridan. it... communism in its purest form is about spreading the wealth around and whoever people are, they may be able to concede that there have been some bad labour prime ministers in this country. okay.
yes, mr. sheridan. it... communism in its purest form is about spreading the wealth around and whoever people are, they may be able to concede that there have been some bad labour prime ministers in this country. okay.
Tony Jones (host)
you you're off topic. let's go to this person.
you you're off topic. let's go to this person.
Slavoj Žižek
i think democracy
i think democracy
Audience Member
it could work better if there was a separation between religion and state. yeah.
it could work better if there was a separation between religion and state. yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
first first, if i may return to the previous question, it's a very important point. where i nonetheless disagree, and i think i will say something terribly politically correct now, it has maybe slight racist overtones is this idea of, oh but arabs need hundreds of years. sorry, afghanistan, as i said yesterday, 40 years ago, was a very tolerant, multicultural country. afghanistan is not an old traditional country which now we slowly have to bring to civilization. when i was young, i was in afghanistan as a child. i saw in herat, the other city. certainly afghanistan, as you know, 40 years ago had a relatively enlightened pro-western monarch, had a strong local communist party and so on. the way afghanistan was caught into world politics made it fundamentalist. it's not there a primitive country that we came to civilize. we screwed it up.
first first, if i may return to the previous question, it's a very important point. where i nonetheless disagree, and i think i will say something terribly politically correct now, it has maybe slight racist overtones is this idea of, oh but arabs need hundreds of years. sorry, afghanistan, as i said yesterday, 40 years ago, was a very tolerant, multicultural country. afghanistan is not an old traditional country which now we slowly have to bring to civilization. when i was young, i was in afghanistan as a child. i saw in herat, the other city. certainly afghanistan, as you know, 40 years ago had a relatively enlightened pro-western monarch, had a strong local communist party and so on. the way afghanistan was caught into world politics made it fundamentalist. it's not there a primitive country that we came to civilize. we screwed it up.
Mona Eltahawy (panelist)
but i want to say something else to what you were saying, greg. it touches on what you're saying, religion and politics. you know, you talk about the muslim brotherhood. let's talk about the christian brotherhood of the united states. because i always tell my american friends, we might have the muslim brotherhood in egypt, but there is a christian brotherhood in the united states. and the christian brotherhood in the united states, unlike the muslim brotherhood in egypt, has actually had an impact on foreign policy because george bush apparently heard god tell him to invade iraq. and in the name of this...
but i want to say something else to what you were saying, greg. it touches on what you're saying, religion and politics. you know, you talk about the muslim brotherhood. let's talk about the christian brotherhood of the united states. because i always tell my american friends, we might have the muslim brotherhood in egypt, but there is a christian brotherhood in the united states. and the christian brotherhood in the united states, unlike the muslim brotherhood in egypt, has actually had an impact on foreign policy because george bush apparently heard god tell him to invade iraq. and in the name of this...
Greg Sheridan (panelist)
did george bush ever say that? that's ridiculous. to get that footage from a news conference? i will i will.
did george bush ever say that? that's ridiculous. to get that footage from a news conference? i will i will.
Mona Eltahawy (panelist)
tell tell. no, it's actually true.
tell tell. no, it's actually true.
Co-Panelist
he did you.
he did you.
Mona Eltahawy (panelist)
no!
no!
Co-Panelist
make it up. George.
make it up. George.
Tony Jones (host)
i wants to get.
i wants to get.
Jon Ronson (panelist)
wait his behalf, i'm going to say. just to support what ma said, george bush not only said that, but he had a presidential prayer team that would meet every week thank you. pray. thank you. and the christian brotherhood. so
wait his behalf, i'm going to say. just to support what ma said, george bush not only said that, but he had a presidential prayer team that would meet every week thank you. pray. thank you. and the christian brotherhood. so
Greg Sheridan (panelist)
George W. but that's not the sign.
George W. but that's not the sign.
Jon Ronson (panelist)
didn't he say god told me to liberate?
didn't he say god told me to liberate?
Greg Sheridan (panelist)
you arrive.
you arrive.
Jon Ronson (panelist)
yeah,.
yeah,.
Greg Sheridan (panelist)
he not just that. beyond that.
he not just that. beyond that.
Mona Eltahawy (panelist)
correct
correct
Greg Sheridan (panelist)
i.
i.
Mona Eltahawy (panelist)
christ christian coalition in the united states has consistently had an impact on us foreign policy vis-à-vis israel, on us foreign policy generally. you have a christian coalition in the united states that has power, even though i live in a country that supposedly has separation between religion and state. so don't preach to the middle east and north africa about separating religion and state when you have a christian fundamentalist president who says i'm invading a country because god told me to give them freedom.
christ christian coalition in the united states has consistently had an impact on us foreign policy vis-à-vis israel, on us foreign policy generally. you have a christian coalition in the united states that has power, even though i live in a country that supposedly has separation between religion and state. so don't preach to the middle east and north africa about separating religion and state when you have a christian fundamentalist president who says i'm invading a country because god told me to give them freedom.
Co-Panelist
. i.
. i.
Greg Sheridan (panelist)
he never said that, he never said that and nowhere in any of his justifications for the actions of iraq or any of john howard's justifications is there anything like that.
he never said that, he never said that and nowhere in any of his justifications for the actions of iraq or any of john howard's justifications is there anything like that.
Mona Eltahawy (panelist)
i don't know how fundamental this is, but i'll get you back.
i don't know how fundamental this is, but i'll get you back.
Tony Jones (host)
i'm going to change. no i'm sorry. i'm in charge here. i'm sorry. let's move along. our next question comes from eleanor doyle markwick.
i'm going to change. no i'm sorry. i'm in charge here. i'm sorry. let's move along. our next question comes from eleanor doyle markwick.
Eleanor Doyle-Markwick (audience member)
this question is again for Slavoj. you're a supporter of... i apologise, tony. you're a supporter of julian assange. i too support his push for open, transparent government. however, i don't believe the anonymity and safety of dissidents should be sacrificed to the cause. do you agree or are redacted documents like sex with a condom just not as good?
this question is again for Slavoj. you're a supporter of... i apologise, tony. you're a supporter of julian assange. i too support his push for open, transparent government. however, i don't believe the anonymity and safety of dissidents should be sacrificed to the cause. do you agree or are redacted documents like sex with a condom just not as good?
Slavoj Žižek
okay, let me... okay, again. it. i think it's a long story let me go to the summary. but just okay, i will start with you know what? the problem no no no no no when you and so on. sorry, but the standard argument with all my mega-smpathy for israel, but it worries me how the western civilization can pretend to be secular and so on. and then the answer i get from america iticians it can be put in a more refined way like it's cultural my god one of the guys who will maybe be president said israel god gave them the country sorry in the state of israel so we're not talking
okay, let me... okay, again. it. i think it's a long story let me go to the summary. but just okay, i will start with you know what? the problem no no no no no when you and so on. sorry, but the standard argument with all my mega-smpathy for israel, but it worries me how the western civilization can pretend to be secular and so on. and then the answer i get from america iticians it can be put in a more refined way like it's cultural my god one of the guys who will maybe be president said israel god gave them the country sorry in the state of israel so we're not talking
Tony Jones (host)
okay.
okay.
Slavoj Žižek
about. but now we're talking about julian assange.
about. but now we're talking about julian assange.
Tony Jones (host)
okay.
okay.
Slavoj Žižek
some people, you go back to some people may think they same. what you say about that condom stuff and so on. listen, i know the story in detail because i have friends in sweden. i think this is a ridiculous excess of political correctness which will backfire onto women because it's a fake. no no no, no, no, no no, no no.
some people, you go back to some people may think they same. what you say about that condom stuff and so on. listen, i know the story in detail because i have friends in sweden. i think this is a ridiculous excess of political correctness which will backfire onto women because it's a fake. no no no, no, no, no no, no no.
Tony Jones (host)
she asked me about...
she asked me about...
Slavoj Žižek
and.
and.
Tony Jones (host)
no, that i'm sorry, that was an analogy. she was simply saying that the lack of protection for the dissidents who actually were named in the cables. exposed by a wiki.
no, that i'm sorry, that was an analogy. she was simply saying that the lack of protection for the dissidents who actually were named in the cables. exposed by a wiki.
Oliver Damian (audience member)
protection.
protection.
Tony Jones (host)
that they didn't have the sort of protection you might have with a condom if you were having sex.
that they didn't have the sort of protection you might have with a condom if you were having sex.
Slavoj Žižek
yeah,.
yeah,.
Tony Jones (host)
it's an analogy.
it's an analogy.
Slavoj Žižek
okay, okay, let me go quickly then. you know what for me, why do i support assange? first, i think that on the contrary, what he did with documents was extremely restrained, double checking and so on. where did this crazy idea come that he is just throwing them out? but something else is important.
okay, okay, let me go quickly then. you know what for me, why do i support assange? first, i think that on the contrary, what he did with documents was extremely restrained, double checking and so on. where did this crazy idea come that he is just throwing them out? but something else is important.
Tony Jones (host)
right came right from the very beginning actually when the first tranche of afghan military documents were released and people who were informants. were named. so people who'd been talking to the american or the australian military were named in those documents.
right came right from the very beginning actually when the first tranche of afghan military documents were released and people who were informants. were named. so people who'd been talking to the american or the australian military were named in those documents.
Slavoj Žižek
let let's not go into detail.
let let's not go into detail.
Tony Jones (host)
actually
actually
Slavoj Žižek
important no no because i would contest this in detail. i know in detail the story. what fascinated me in afghanistan or northern iraq, it's crucial is that shot the shot from a camera from a helicopter, where you can clearly see. i don't know who are, maybe taliban, i don't care, but some soldiers clearly, explicitly wanting to surrender to the americans. the helicopter pilot phones back, what do? basically he get the message, should then we take no prisoners and so on. so, okay, but another point, that was in iraq, so they weren't tal. yeah, but let me get to my point finally. it's not the point about assange is not what we learned. we really learned anything new globally? no, it's just what we expected. you know, life is hypocritical in the sense that there are things that are going on, but we allow those in power to pretend to act as if they don't go on. that's why it's important. it's not what we learned. it's that those in power cannot pretend to act as if this is not going on.
important no no because i would contest this in detail. i know in detail the story. what fascinated me in afghanistan or northern iraq, it's crucial is that shot the shot from a camera from a helicopter, where you can clearly see. i don't know who are, maybe taliban, i don't care, but some soldiers clearly, explicitly wanting to surrender to the americans. the helicopter pilot phones back, what do? basically he get the message, should then we take no prisoners and so on. so, okay, but another point, that was in iraq, so they weren't tal. yeah, but let me get to my point finally. it's not the point about assange is not what we learned. we really learned anything new globally? no, it's just what we expected. you know, life is hypocritical in the sense that there are things that are going on, but we allow those in power to pretend to act as if they don't go on. that's why it's important. it's not what we learned. it's that those in power cannot pretend to act as if this is not going on.
Tony Jones (host)
and i think outweigh all the problems. we've got to find an end to a sentence at some point. just hang on, we'll go to john.
and i think outweigh all the problems. we've got to find an end to a sentence at some point. just hang on, we'll go to john.
Jon Ronson (panelist)
savo, in saying let's not go into detail, what you just did with a wave of your hand was dismiss somebody who puts ideology over human life and human safety. it was despicable what asange did to send out these documents without that. and he was asked, wasn't he, at one point, well, what about the safety of the people that you named? and he said, well, if they worked for, i mean, i believe this is true, he said, well, if they work for the government, then they're fair game. i mean, that's to put ideology... ide life is a terrible thing. and is this not what we're all doing here? are we not just kind of reaching, you know, because of this kind of fetishization of extreme ideological positions on television and in politics and so on? it's, the more respected somebody is, it relates to how ideological, how extreme their position is. and this is a problem in our world.. i.
savo, in saying let's not go into detail, what you just did with a wave of your hand was dismiss somebody who puts ideology over human life and human safety. it was despicable what asange did to send out these documents without that. and he was asked, wasn't he, at one point, well, what about the safety of the people that you named? and he said, well, if they worked for, i mean, i believe this is true, he said, well, if they work for the government, then they're fair game. i mean, that's to put ideology... ide life is a terrible thing. and is this not what we're all doing here? are we not just kind of reaching, you know, because of this kind of fetishization of extreme ideological positions on television and in politics and so on? it's, the more respected somebody is, it relates to how ideological, how extreme their position is. and this is a problem in our world.. i.
Slavoj Žižek
i think the category of life that you are using here is pure ideology. okay, i don't have time to explain it.
i think the category of life that you are using here is pure ideology. okay, i don't have time to explain it.
Tony Jones (host)
enough, i want to hear from k.
enough, i want to hear from k.
Kate Adie (panelist)
well, as a journalist, i think i begin to wonder, and looking at all that assange did, is first of all, what governments do. that very few of us actively think about how much governments keep secret and what they do in their name and what they do to protect people who do things which they do not want public and whether that desire not to have it public is right or wrong. we're all in democracies lazy about this. vast numbers of countries have all kinds of laws which say whatever the government does can be kept secret for years and years and years. and we go, mm. and we don't think why. and i think we're lazy about deciding what should be secret, what your government should keep from you as an ordinary citizen, and what it should do to protect, if we agree, those people who might be vulnerable, whom the government thinks should stay out of the public eye. we're lazy about it. we just say, oh, yeah, the government doesn't tell. well, if in a democracy, we should be inquiring. we should know where those decisions are made. we have.
well, as a journalist, i think i begin to wonder, and looking at all that assange did, is first of all, what governments do. that very few of us actively think about how much governments keep secret and what they do in their name and what they do to protect people who do things which they do not want public and whether that desire not to have it public is right or wrong. we're all in democracies lazy about this. vast numbers of countries have all kinds of laws which say whatever the government does can be kept secret for years and years and years. and we go, mm. and we don't think why. and i think we're lazy about deciding what should be secret, what your government should keep from you as an ordinary citizen, and what it should do to protect, if we agree, those people who might be vulnerable, whom the government thinks should stay out of the public eye. we're lazy about it. we just say, oh, yeah, the government doesn't tell. well, if in a democracy, we should be inquiring. we should know where those decisions are made. we have.
Tony Jones (host)
let's um... i'm going to go across to mona and... you can perhaps give us an assessment of whether wikileaks played a significant role.
let's um... i'm going to go across to mona and... you can perhaps give us an assessment of whether wikileaks played a significant role.
Mona Eltahawy (panelist)
i'm so glad you asked me this. you mean the wikileaks revolution, not... nothing, nothing pisses people off in the middle east more than hearing these revolutions and uprisings were wikileaks revolutions, for many reasons. primarily, in a country like tunisia and even in egypt, none of the major media outlets, especially those state-controlled, were allowed to publish cablegate. so we were reading about these things outside of the region. so the scenario didn't go. mohamed buzizi picked up the newspaper in sidi bouuzid, thought, oh my god, my regime is so corrupt, i'm going to go out there and overthrow them. it didn't work like that. and second of all, the people in the region, just like you were saying, gijik, they all knew of this stuff. they all knew. they were dying for the international community to say something. they pleaded. all these activists used to plead with the various western governments that propped up their dictators to stop propping them up because they were so corrupt.
i'm so glad you asked me this. you mean the wikileaks revolution, not... nothing, nothing pisses people off in the middle east more than hearing these revolutions and uprisings were wikileaks revolutions, for many reasons. primarily, in a country like tunisia and even in egypt, none of the major media outlets, especially those state-controlled, were allowed to publish cablegate. so we were reading about these things outside of the region. so the scenario didn't go. mohamed buzizi picked up the newspaper in sidi bouuzid, thought, oh my god, my regime is so corrupt, i'm going to go out there and overthrow them. it didn't work like that. and second of all, the people in the region, just like you were saying, gijik, they all knew of this stuff. they all knew. they were dying for the international community to say something. they pleaded. all these activists used to plead with the various western governments that propped up their dictators to stop propping them up because they were so corrupt.
Tony Jones (host)
can i just interrupt there, because Assange makes the argument that because of cablegate, because of all this material being out there. that the western governments were not able to intervene. to prop up those dictatorships during the arab spring. that's his argument.
can i just interrupt there, because Assange makes the argument that because of cablegate, because of all this material being out there. that the western governments were not able to intervene. to prop up those dictatorships during the arab spring. that's his argument.
Mona Eltahawy (panelist)
they continue to, my god, did you see how long it took for the us administration, for example, to actually get on the right side and say the right thing? they fumbled around for days. and to this day, they continue to say the supreme military council of mubarak, as i call them, is a force of stability and continuity. if anything, cablegate and what wikileaks has been revealing is the need. there should be a revolution in dc. there should be a revolution here. the revolution belongs outside because basically what's happening... is the supposedly democratically elected governments are hypocrites and if you didn't know before, now you know. what are you going to do about it? that. we.
they continue to, my god, did you see how long it took for the us administration, for example, to actually get on the right side and say the right thing? they fumbled around for days. and to this day, they continue to say the supreme military council of mubarak, as i call them, is a force of stability and continuity. if anything, cablegate and what wikileaks has been revealing is the need. there should be a revolution in dc. there should be a revolution here. the revolution belongs outside because basically what's happening... is the supposedly democratically elected governments are hypocrites and if you didn't know before, now you know. what are you going to do about it? that. we.
Tony Jones (host)
that.
that.
Kate Adie (panelist)
about that is what it is. in so many democracies now we take having a vote for granted.
about that is what it is. in so many democracies now we take having a vote for granted.
Greg Sheridan (panelist)
so.
so.
Kate Adie (panelist)
just don't get off our butts and do anything.
just don't get off our butts and do anything.
Greg Sheridan (panelist)
i from. i think the political lesson out of wikileaks is something quite different, and you'll be astonished to hear, mona, that i may disagree with you on this point. i know you are, i know you are. and but, you know, we aim to please, we in the love media. but i think the big lesson out of wikileaks is that democracies tell the truth and dictatorships tell lies. what was fascinating out of wikileaks? well, if you let me, i'll explain. what was fascinating out of wikileaks was mahmoud abbas begging israel to take action against hamas, the saudis begging the americans to take action against the iranians. and in the broadest sense, everything the americans and the australian government was telling us was broadly true. you remember t on this program, john pilger said should be scared about the wikileaks mother load because it would have all this terrible stuff. i finally found myself in a cable the other day. i was so thrilled, but i can't get it into the paper because it was quoting a published column that i wrote. so.
i from. i think the political lesson out of wikileaks is something quite different, and you'll be astonished to hear, mona, that i may disagree with you on this point. i know you are, i know you are. and but, you know, we aim to please, we in the love media. but i think the big lesson out of wikileaks is that democracies tell the truth and dictatorships tell lies. what was fascinating out of wikileaks? well, if you let me, i'll explain. what was fascinating out of wikileaks was mahmoud abbas begging israel to take action against hamas, the saudis begging the americans to take action against the iranians. and in the broadest sense, everything the americans and the australian government was telling us was broadly true. you remember t on this program, john pilger said should be scared about the wikileaks mother load because it would have all this terrible stuff. i finally found myself in a cable the other day. i was so thrilled, but i can't get it into the paper because it was quoting a published column that i wrote. so.
Tony Jones (host)
yeah, okay, very briefly, because we've got another question at least we need to come to and we've got very little time to do that.
yeah, okay, very briefly, because we've got another question at least we need to come to and we've got very little time to do that.
Mona Eltahawy (panelist)
i cannot believe that you spew such nonsense as democracy. based on what wikileaks showed, are you able to actually say that with a straight face? what wikileaks showed us is that these governments knew what was happening, but they were so hypocritical and they did nothing and said nothing and continued to sell weapons.
i cannot believe that you spew such nonsense as democracy. based on what wikileaks showed, are you able to actually say that with a straight face? what wikileaks showed us is that these governments knew what was happening, but they were so hypocritical and they did nothing and said nothing and continued to sell weapons.
Greg Sheridan (panelist)
continue.
continue.
Mona Eltahawy (panelist)
business deals.
business deals.
Greg Sheridan (panelist)
almost everything that we found in wikileaks, as slavoj said, we already knew. almost everything we found we already knew. the new york times and wall street... that's what...
almost everything that we found in wikileaks, as slavoj said, we already knew. almost everything we found we already knew. the new york times and wall street... that's what...
Tony Jones (host)
that's what mr. zik said. so very briefly, john, you want to get in?
that's what mr. zik said. so very briefly, john, you want to get in?
Jon Ronson (panelist)
yeah, well, i mean, talking about cables that come out, the students in the arab spring who went into the security buildings and took out the papers that hadn't been shredded, it was full of british companies offering in secret deals to sell equipment to mubarak, spying equipment through email and so on.
yeah, well, i mean, talking about cables that come out, the students in the arab spring who went into the security buildings and took out the papers that hadn't been shredded, it was full of british companies offering in secret deals to sell equipment to mubarak, spying equipment through email and so on.
Greg Sheridan (panelist)
brit british companies aren't the british government, and i wouldn't defend the brits. i'm an irishman for god's sake.
brit british companies aren't the british government, and i wouldn't defend the brits. i'm an irishman for god's sake.
Tony Jones (host)
all right, no, no, no, no, no no, no. sorry, we've got another question. you won't be disappointed. this is q&a live from the festival of very dangerous ideas. our next question
all right, no, no, no, no, no no, no. sorry, we've got another question. you won't be disappointed. this is q&a live from the festival of very dangerous ideas. our next question
Oliver Damian (audience member)
Oliver Damian. my question is the panel. if the selfish and blind pursuit of genes to propagate is what drove single cells to evolve into complex life forms. which includes us. can we say that the blind pursuit of profit is what drives civilization forward. and we should not stop it just because we don't like what we see now. given that the future cannot be fully imagined. by someone on a lower level of evolution. slavooy.
Oliver Damian. my question is the panel. if the selfish and blind pursuit of genes to propagate is what drove single cells to evolve into complex life forms. which includes us. can we say that the blind pursuit of profit is what drives civilization forward. and we should not stop it just because we don't like what we see now. given that the future cannot be fully imagined. by someone on a lower level of evolution. slavooy.
Slavoj Žižek
maybe two philosophical questions, but just a brief point. you know, we don't have time for theory now, i know, but you know, people usually claim capitalism is egotism, just profit-seeking. no, i claim that what all good marxist andologists know, capitalism is implicitly in a perverted way, religiously ethical. it capital must circulate even if we all drop debt and so on. like you have a metaphysical which has priority over our most immediate utilitarian concerns. so for me, what we need against capitalist greed is not some christian morality, but good old-fashioned utilitarian egotism. you actually calling for the return.
maybe two philosophical questions, but just a brief point. you know, we don't have time for theory now, i know, but you know, people usually claim capitalism is egotism, just profit-seeking. no, i claim that what all good marxist andologists know, capitalism is implicitly in a perverted way, religiously ethical. it capital must circulate even if we all drop debt and so on. like you have a metaphysical which has priority over our most immediate utilitarian concerns. so for me, what we need against capitalist greed is not some christian morality, but good old-fashioned utilitarian egotism. you actually calling for the return.
Tony Jones (host)
and
and
Slavoj Žižek
aren't you? i mean... that. another another complicated question.
aren't you? i mean... that. another another complicated question.
Tony Jones (host)
but nonetheless all.
but nonetheless all.
Slavoj Žižek
not so complicated stuff. you know, i will give you a prediction. very short, very short, really. what the gentleman's question before what will happen? what will happen probably 90%, not 100, is in egypt a pact between the army and muslim brotherhood.
not so complicated stuff. you know, i will give you a prediction. very short, very short, really. what the gentleman's question before what will happen? what will happen probably 90%, not 100, is in egypt a pact between the army and muslim brotherhood.
Mona Eltahawy (panelist)
it's already happening.
it's already happening.
Slavoj Žižek
the deal would be, you muslim brotherhood get more or less ideological hegemony, we keep our corruption and i guarantee you this pact will be blessed by the united states as force of continuity.
the deal would be, you muslim brotherhood get more or less ideological hegemony, we keep our corruption and i guarantee you this pact will be blessed by the united states as force of continuity.
Mona Eltahawy (panelist)
it pays 40% of the egyptian army budget. it continues to rise.
it pays 40% of the egyptian army budget. it continues to rise.
Tony Jones (host)
yeah, it's good to be able to continue the previous question, but we've had another question. you said it was philosophical and it is. it's actually about the nature of capitalism and whether it's actually the best way forward. let's the structure from.
yeah, it's good to be able to continue the previous question, but we've had another question. you said it was philosophical and it is. it's actually about the nature of capitalism and whether it's actually the best way forward. let's the structure from.
Kate Adie (panelist)
one of the things politicians so frequently talk about is that there must be more growth. more jobs means better incomes for people, means a house, means having a nicer life in a material sense. and there is quite a lot of thought nowadays, perhaps coming from some quarters about, well, is growth the thing we mean when we go over the green fields, we eat all the food, we suck the goodness from the land, so it's hard to do anything. we do ever more in the way of... smart travel and at greater speed. and i think there is a good argument, but not a popular one. and when it's one of the things which we're all embracing. wouldn't be wonderful if we just grew our own vegetables and we didn't get into the car and use all of this petrol and we didn't need new clothes every so often. it's a wonderful idea, except for me. but the idea of growth per se, i think does need to be questioned, not at the cost of not letting people who are hungry stay hungry. and there's the difficult thing in this world. but i do think we need to think about how we could live life and be happier and warm, comfortable and full of food without endlessly building more, destroying the environment and living at a greater speed.
one of the things politicians so frequently talk about is that there must be more growth. more jobs means better incomes for people, means a house, means having a nicer life in a material sense. and there is quite a lot of thought nowadays, perhaps coming from some quarters about, well, is growth the thing we mean when we go over the green fields, we eat all the food, we suck the goodness from the land, so it's hard to do anything. we do ever more in the way of... smart travel and at greater speed. and i think there is a good argument, but not a popular one. and when it's one of the things which we're all embracing. wouldn't be wonderful if we just grew our own vegetables and we didn't get into the car and use all of this petrol and we didn't need new clothes every so often. it's a wonderful idea, except for me. but the idea of growth per se, i think does need to be questioned, not at the cost of not letting people who are hungry stay hungry. and there's the difficult thing in this world. but i do think we need to think about how we could live life and be happier and warm, comfortable and full of food without endlessly building more, destroying the environment and living at a greater speed.
Tony Jones (host)
get a john.
get a john.
Slavoj Žižek
i agree with you only on one point.
i agree with you only on one point.
Tony Jones (host)
thank.
thank.
Slavoj Žižek
. .
. .
Kate Adie (panelist)
i need...
i need...
Tony Jones (host)
your name is not john. this is john.
your name is not john. this is john.
Jon Ronson (panelist)
yeah, no, kate's absolutely right. capitalism isn't the problem. growth is the problem. when you have companies, and i know you're going to hate this, but when you have companies that take psychopathy as a business model, like the american health insurance industry, where they'll try everything they can to deny claims. i told the story a couple of weeks ago of a little girl who died of leukemia because her health insurance company found a loophole and denied her the claim. that's the problem. so is capitalism to blame for that? no, the problem in that is this kind of lust for growth.
yeah, no, kate's absolutely right. capitalism isn't the problem. growth is the problem. when you have companies, and i know you're going to hate this, but when you have companies that take psychopathy as a business model, like the american health insurance industry, where they'll try everything they can to deny claims. i told the story a couple of weeks ago of a little girl who died of leukemia because her health insurance company found a loophole and denied her the claim. that's the problem. so is capitalism to blame for that? no, the problem in that is this kind of lust for growth.
Kate Adie (panelist)
and there's a classic one in the pharmacology companies and the pharmaceutical companies, in the medicalization of the human condition.
and there's a classic one in the pharmacology companies and the pharmaceutical companies, in the medicalization of the human condition.
Jon Ronson (panelist)
yeah.
yeah.
Kate Adie (panelist)
i.
i.
Jon Ronson (panelist)
you know that the manual of mental disorders used to be a pamphlet, 65 pages. it's now 886 pages.
you know that the manual of mental disorders used to be a pamphlet, 65 pages. it's now 886 pages.
Greg Sheridan (panelist)
evolution explains all of life, so it shouldn't explain all.
evolution explains all of life, so it shouldn't explain all.
Jon Ronson (panelist)
and do you realize that the pharmaceutical industry in america is actually creating disorders such as diabetes?
and do you realize that the pharmaceutical industry in america is actually creating disorders such as diabetes?
Slavoj Žižek
such as child.
such as child.
Tony Jones (host)
can ioy, i'll take the risk and ask you a question. your own risk, your own risk. okay, well, i mean, do you really see a return to communism or marxism as the answer? because
can ioy, i'll take the risk and ask you a question. your own risk, your own risk. okay, well, i mean, do you really see a return to communism or marxism as the answer? because
Slavoj Žižek
no, as i said
no, as i said
Tony Jones (host)
don't be afraid, join us, come back. you've had your anti-communist fun, it's time to get serious again.
don't be afraid, join us, come back. you've had your anti-communist fun, it's time to get serious again.
Slavoj Žižek
okay, i can tell you more jokes. but what i'm simply saying is that we are obviously approaching today some serious problems, ecology and so on. i don't think in the long term these problems can be solved within the liberal capitalist democratic frame. i'm the first to admit, my gosh, i'm sorry to inform you, but i was a kind of a dissident. i was five years unemployed. i was not allowed to teach. so all i'm saying... is that the problems are still here which are the problems of commons, the problems of communism. as i said yesterday, communism is obviously not an answer, the 20th century communism, but sorry to tell you the problems are here and they will not ran away.
okay, i can tell you more jokes. but what i'm simply saying is that we are obviously approaching today some serious problems, ecology and so on. i don't think in the long term these problems can be solved within the liberal capitalist democratic frame. i'm the first to admit, my gosh, i'm sorry to inform you, but i was a kind of a dissident. i was five years unemployed. i was not allowed to teach. so all i'm saying... is that the problems are still here which are the problems of commons, the problems of communism. as i said yesterday, communism is obviously not an answer, the 20th century communism, but sorry to tell you the problems are here and they will not ran away.
Mona Eltahawy (panelist)
tony, tony, i'd like to answer your question actually by answering it along with two other questions. so it's going to be your question, wikileaks and the arab spring, quote unquote. it's
tony, tony, i'd like to answer your question actually by answering it along with two other questions. so it's going to be your question, wikileaks and the arab spring, quote unquote. it's
Tony Jones (host)
quick.
quick.
Mona Eltahawy (panelist)
i will try to talk very fast. if you follow the hashtag occupy movement that is spreading across the united states now, it started in new york on wall street as a reaction against corporate greed. and also some people were saying too much money invested in politics. how was it inspired? it was inspired by seeing people across the middle east and north africa rising up against their various regimes and chanting things like bread, freedom and social justice. they're not calling for communism, but they're calling for a system in which everybody everybody feels a part of and're. in the united states, we have more than 40 million people uninsured. i spent five years of my life recently, because i began as a freelancer, uninsured in a country where you break a leg, go to the hospital and you're bankrupt. so it's spreading across the us because people recognize this. and i went to the wall street thing and it was encapsulated for me at the first day of the protest where you had these kids on the street saying, where's my bailout? and you had these rich men in suits and women in fancy clothes. ch champagne at cipriani's and taunting the people on the street and you're thinking this is wrong, this is where it's wrong.
i will try to talk very fast. if you follow the hashtag occupy movement that is spreading across the united states now, it started in new york on wall street as a reaction against corporate greed. and also some people were saying too much money invested in politics. how was it inspired? it was inspired by seeing people across the middle east and north africa rising up against their various regimes and chanting things like bread, freedom and social justice. they're not calling for communism, but they're calling for a system in which everybody everybody feels a part of and're. in the united states, we have more than 40 million people uninsured. i spent five years of my life recently, because i began as a freelancer, uninsured in a country where you break a leg, go to the hospital and you're bankrupt. so it's spreading across the us because people recognize this. and i went to the wall street thing and it was encapsulated for me at the first day of the protest where you had these kids on the street saying, where's my bailout? and you had these rich men in suits and women in fancy clothes. ch champagne at cipriani's and taunting the people on the street and you're thinking this is wrong, this is where it's wrong.
Jon Ronson (panelist)
all right, john, briefly, we have to wrap up. a, can i just say that a psychologist called philip tetlock recently completed a 20-year study where he studied people like us, sort of pundits on television, people who had kind of strong opinions. and he asked them 28,000 predictions over a 20-year period. anyway, it turned out that a flicker a coin would have been more accurate. so i just think we should bear that in mind when we.
all right, john, briefly, we have to wrap up. a, can i just say that a psychologist called philip tetlock recently completed a 20-year study where he studied people like us, sort of pundits on television, people who had kind of strong opinions. and he asked them 28,000 predictions over a 20-year period. anyway, it turned out that a flicker a coin would have been more accurate. so i just think we should bear that in mind when we.
Tony Jones (host)
thank you. quite a good okay, we don't have time to flip the coin, sadly. that's all we have time for. please thank the sydney opera house and our wonderful panel of dangerous thinkers, Kate Adie, Slavoj Žižek, Jon Ronson, Mona Eltahawy, and Greg Sheridan. okay. on october 17, we'll be presenting q&a in darwin. so if you can be there on that night, go to our website and register to join the audience. next week on q&a, we head back to politics with the assistant treasurer, Bill Shorten, and the deputy leader of the liberal party, julie bishop, celebrated novelist and essayist, richard flanagan, the lawyer who led the discrimination action against andrew bolt, ron merkel, qc, and news limited journalist and author caroline overrington. until then, good night.
thank you. quite a good okay, we don't have time to flip the coin, sadly. that's all we have time for. please thank the sydney opera house and our wonderful panel of dangerous thinkers, Kate Adie, Slavoj Žižek, Jon Ronson, Mona Eltahawy, and Greg Sheridan. okay. on october 17, we'll be presenting q&a in darwin. so if you can be there on that night, go to our website and register to join the audience. next week on q&a, we head back to politics with the assistant treasurer, Bill Shorten, and the deputy leader of the liberal party, julie bishop, celebrated novelist and essayist, richard flanagan, the lawyer who led the discrimination action against andrew bolt, ron merkel, qc, and news limited journalist and author caroline overrington. until then, good night.