Slavoj Žižek — On G.W.F. Hegel, Lecture 3 [Remaster]
Žižek critiques Alain Badiou’s distinction between the event and its fidelity, arguing for a Hegelian view where the event is its own process. He then engages with cognitive science, specifically David Chalmers’ 'hard problem' of consciousness, arguing that consciousness functions as an operator of simplification and emerges from failure, rather than complexity. He concludes by comparing current physics (string theory) to Ptolemaic epicycles and referencing Julian Jaynes’ bicameral mind theory. Žižek contrasts organic evolution with Hegelian dialectics, arguing that in the latter, the universal itself changes rather than merely persisting through change. He illustrates this with Marx’s analysis of money becoming capital and production generating need (Say’s Law). He also critiques the binary opposition between Hegel and Derrida, suggesting Derrida’s deconstruction is closer to Hegel than admitted, and uses a personal anecdote about Wolfgang Streeck to highlight political hypocrisy. Žižek argues that there is no neutral classification of philosophy, as every perspective presupposes a standpoint, illustrating this through the internal contradictions of analytic, continental, and deconstructionist schools. He applies Hegel’s concept of historicity and the 'cunning of reason' to politics and history, using examples like Caesar and Napoleon to show how contingency becomes necessity. Finally, he contrasts Hegel’s 'substantial ethics' (Antigone) with Kant’s reflexive autonomy, arguing that true responsibility involves standing behind one's duty rather than hiding behind it, while critiquing the Eichmann-Kant connection. Žižek argues that Lacanian ethics is a direct repetition of Kant, illustrating this through Kant's shocking, legally-grounded examples in Metaphysics of Morals regarding duels, illegitimate children, and marriage as property exchange. He contrasts Kant's brutal consistency with Hegel's dismissal of these points as missing 'spiritual unity,' before introducing Kant's late work Religion within the Limits of Reason Alone and its concept of 'diabolical evil.' Žižek analyzes Kant’s concept of radical evil and its relation to Sade, arguing that true ethical acts are autonomous and done for duty alone, which makes 'evil for the sake of evil' structurally identical to the good. He then applies Hegel’s reading of Antigone to show how tragedy transitions into comedy through self-reflexivity, before redefining Lacan’s 'Real' not as hidden depth but as the spectral power of surface/appearance, illustrated by examples from opera, film, and physics. Žižek analyzes the 'death drive' as the terrifying experience of appearance persisting without substance, using examples from Sergio Leone, David Lynch, and a Balanchine ballet. He argues for an 'authenticity of the mask' over the liberal ideal of tearing it down, citing Roberto Rossellini and Jorge Luis Borges. Finally, he reinterprets Italo Calvino’s 'The Giant’s Ear' and Austrian political rhetoric to show how ideology operates through obscene, meaningless repetition rather than just hidden meaning. Žižek argues against the concept of 'proto-fascism,' asserting that fascism is defined by its specific ideological articulation (particularly the master signifier of antisemitism) rather than by neutral elements like discipline or sacrifice. He critiques Ernesto Laclau and Chantal Mouffe for their formalist, contingent view of populism and ideology, arguing instead for a Hegelian understanding of class struggle as a structural principle. He concludes by challenging Judith Butler’s historicity, claiming her theory of performative identity merely reflects current capitalist hegemony rather than offering a genuine subversive alternative.
The ideas in it 52
in the order they first come up; click a row for what he does with the idea here
Stories he reaches for 9
Works invoked 30
People invoked 67
Transcript 51 turns
Yeah but but again but that's the point what does he mean by process of the event because he explicitly says he emphasized this all the time that an event is something momentary evanescent and that then the point is fidelity traces and so on you know what I mean like of course there is a process but my point is precisely how does this sounds for me too Hegelian to be his position the idea that properly speaking the event is nothing but its own process no no he has a gap there he always emphasizes that event is like a momentary flash and then you have the problem of fidelity I don't think he would have accepted let me be very clear I'm here on his side I share the same problems in a properly Hegelian way I think that precisely these oscillations are very productive I think a theory gets interesting precisely when you you are forced to be inconsistent and you know you look I mean theories which just function smoothly are totally are simply not interesting the same is when we were talking about it for example in cognitivism I like intelligent cognitivists who admit for who admit you know there is a deadlock a problem here something happens and then this is on what I focus in the middle chapter of part of that obscenity parallax view on how all of them had to admit that in order from all this brain neuronal retroaction to get to consciousness a kind of a magic short circuit should happen when it appears as if the result effect causes its own cause and it's interesting how totally different authors they all have recourse to the same metaphor I think that's where Freud or Hegel should enter and again I like there are intelligent there are intelligent cognitivists who admit this deadlock because I you maybe know the debate between so-called reductionists and the great idealist guy is David Chalmers how is he called Chalmers the great no who simply thinks that that he has a point but I don't take his point he his position is to put it very simply that there is that there is a way of course all conscious activities even the most complex ones of course you can somehow reduce them to neuronal processes and so on but his point is very nice he says the problem is not complexity he rejects and I totally agree with him here the idea that we can have a stupid automatic mechanism as long as the tasks are relatively simple that you need consciousness with a certain amount of complexity I don't think this I think first if anything consciousness as every neurobiologist will tell you consciousness is an operator of simplification consciousness simplifies and I think if there is a my dogma is twin here and I don't know if they were just flattering me but when I had a debate I mean private debates not big public with some neurologists they I will be very modest I don't want to boast too much they pretended I don't know what they were talking after I left maybe oh that jerk good that we got rid of him but at least face to face they pretended that they were interested that there is something in it namely in what I I said that my two basic dogmas are a that it's not complexity it's quite the opposite the simplification you know this is what Badiou meant probably he explained it also to you during his classes this crucial point what he calls of le point the point you know you have a complex situation then at a certain point you should say a decision yes or no this brutal reduction and also for example when you have a complex situation the true work of intelligence is not this here me and Badiou that's our private joke like to make fun of unfair a little bit of Derrida he says that the Derrida's basic dogma is always oh but the situation is a little bit more complex you know like it's not like this it's more no I mean of course it's complex but this is common sense stupidity how should I put it no the the act of consciousness is precisely when you have a complex phenomenon of course in real life everything is complex to isolate one feature to say but it's really about this so that again consciousness is an operator of simplification all that complexity your unconscious not even in the Freudian sense in the simple sense of you know what goes non-conscious sorry non-conscious yes can do and second thing and that's what interests some did interest some brain scientists I spoke with is my idea is that I base it on a very simple analogy that consciousness is at its zero level it must have emerged as a consciousness of a failure in the you know in a simple sense you are for example writing you write it automatically it's totally ingrained into your neuronal reflexes you don't think about it when do you become aware of it as such when something doesn't function at that point oh my God you know you notice things when they don't function and my idea was simply to generalize this radically what if consciousness as such is originally linked to some ultimate failure maybe Heideggerians would have said death or some failure non-functioning and so on so that again I want to because you know why this is I think the only way to avoid one of the good arguments of those who of Chalmers and those guys who have a very good argument against this people who try to prove that consciousness can be reduced to neuronal processes what they prove is let's say they take a very complex activity and then they prove it that you can account for this activity at the purely material level of neuronal interaction whatever that you can reduce it but then a question remains if you can reduce it why then consciousness at all you know what I mean the better you explain complex activities through neuronal mechanism the more the enigma remains why do you need to be aware of it why I mean why doesn't it simply function as a kind of a complex computer what is the function of awareness and I don't think that they usually then even with Dennett whom I otherwise appreciate I don't agree here he tends to play the card of complexity like when things get complex at a certain level you simply need some kind of a central agency who introduces order blah blah blah I don't I don't think that I don't think that works here again I have a limited sympathy with how is the guy called with Chalmers who says that you know his big argument that the problem is not complexity the problem is this how do they call it the hard problem raw fact of awareness why awareness in what sense does it help our survival adaptation to be aware of something why cannot our they okay it's easy to say for let me take an example you can say my God I walk around I become aware of an oh my God I will be evil towards you it's my nature sorry don't take it personally I like that scorpion you know who bites the frog in the middle of the stream even if he will die for it let's say I walk on Broadway I see one of you my reaction is let's take a tour so that you don't ask me some stupid questions sorry it's my nature what I want to say is that now you will say clearly my awareness functions as a survival mechanism and so on no how it helps me survive but then I can say but still it's not clear why should I be aware of it why can't we do it as a simple blind mechanism which perceives the danger and gives the signal take you know what I mean the raw fact of awareness is an enigma and but I don't agree again with Chalmers's conclusion where immediately where as you probably know his idea is simply that to the four I think this is the weak strong atomic force gravity whatever magnetic force that the only solution is to a kind of a it's ironic how as a big idealist he ended up in a way in a strange mixture of idealism with the most vulgar materialism he says that the only way is to grasp awareness as simply another fundamental natural force it's literally you know quintessence you know what quintessence means the fifth essence so that on the top of you know the four mass the weak strong atomic force and what magnetic and what's the other shit gravity or what no that to this four we should simply add another fundamental force but I think this is precisely the false issue he he simply I mean you mean the standard the standard theory in physics yeah forces four there are four and now we all know the story I mean superficially the big problem is how to unite them and all that and so on and here interesting things happen you know this oscillation about string theory first it was winning then it was losing then some years ago it was winning but now this is the stock market tendency in quantum physics now it's losing again and it's very interesting what's the latest tendency I was told you know there is a wonderful term called how should I call it Ptolemaization you know Ptolemaeus his was geocentric system and then there were new and new data which didn't fit it so he to maintain his model he had to introduce more and more complex supplementary hypotheses so the idea is that yes we have a problem but that string theory is not too radical but not radical enough it's still a Ptolemaization it's not yet Copernicus Ptolemaization which is why they need all this shit you know ten dimensions and the tragedy is that it's not only that we cannot measure them they even didn't devise a possible experiment of how to measure and so on so I like this speculation the idea is that we will have to wait for a much more radical much more radical revolution and the hypothesis is that one or two either time or space will have to go probably time that is to say that one of these very elementary constituents of reality will have to be erased now finally to get back to your fundamental theory about a failure that accounts for at least the question of why consciousness yeah this reminds me of Julian Jaynes you know
who is this Julian Jaynes The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind oh yeah yeah yeah yeah
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah
the idea was that this was a kind of a fundamental breakdown and because the brain needs to talk to itself neurophysiologically even this this is what creates consciousness it's kind of like a materialism but not exactly do you know
that work no no no I only know is is he the I know this idea of is he the guy who claimed that for example prior to ancient Greece people simply were bicamerally in the sense that they they for them simply for example what they experienced as sacred and so on consciousness it was simply another power and another
yes so culture becomes the stitching together of bicameral consciousness
not spontaneous you know what's only my problem here I'm afraid of a temptation here temptation in the sense that you know these theories are so attractive that we bluffing philosophers are easily seduced and oh my God then you link this to Hegel oh I am I don't know if you have this expression if you are too pretentious we in Slovene we have this back to obscenity we have this expression you think you are holding God by his balls how should I put it no so I'm just I like the theory I'm just simply skeptical in the sense of how tested it is scientifically I know that wonderful things Catherine Malabou that Hegelian brain scientist convinced me that one wonderful things are going on now in brain sciences on the top quality especially about this we all know this so-called plasticity of mind no
neuroplasticity
yeah not only this vulgar plasticity in the sense of transfunctioning and so on but all the stuff which makes it very easy and nice for a Hegelian like her to so if you want a good book on Hegel again look at it's published by Princeton University Press okay the title is The Future of Hegel what's her name again Malabou M A L A B O U Catherine Malabou it's available in English what's also very good is that it has a long introduction which was originally in French a review of the book a long introduction by Derrida which is a wonderful text you can see that you cannot oppose in this simplistic way Derrida versus Hegel Hegel total metaphysics everything is swallowed by the by the idea Derrida knows something remains and so on Derrida is almost she almost reconverted Derrida to Hegel because Derrida was if you read him closely was all the time much more ambiguous towards Hegel for example a standard deconstructionist would tell you the basic mechanism Hegelian of is aufhebung sublation you took something and you elevate it internalize it through idealization but then it appears that the basic motive of deconstruction is but this sublation the reduction of the otherness through mediation internalization never fully functions there is always a remainder and so on so it appears as if the final sorry the ultimate push topic of Derrida is precisely anti-sublation anti-Hegel but no already somewhere in his early works I don't know where forgot Derrida says that sublation what Hegel calls aufhebung is so close to différance that the line is almost imperceptible sometimes so again Derrida always emphasized that he even says sometimes that maybe Hegel is not the ultimate idealist but on the contrary the point where metaphysics comes closest to closest to deconstruction no okay but listen we get lost here let me do some work Hegel today and maybe a little bit tomorrow and some ethics okay so I want to begin with again the basic difference between this kind of organic evolution and what Hegel means by a dialectical process organic evolution is to put it very simply a self-deployment of a global universal principle at all levels at the individual level you have an organism of course everything changes your stuff changes you are in contact but through all these gradual changes the organism survives this you know like you have a certain we cannot say universality but encompassing entity the one how the organic process is how the one survives through the continuous generation corruption and so on things change all the time so that they remain the same how should I put it no and even if we move from individual level to the higher level of a species you can say it's the same it's that individuals die are born struggle but through precisely through this very constant dynamic process the species remains the same sustains itself and this is what people usually understand by dialectics how you don't have on the one hand this stability of some universal principle and then the irrelevant empirical movement but that an idea is alive precisely when it maintains itself through its dynamic but for Hegel this precisely is the limit of nature let's put it in this way in this okay now you will say but also in nature a species can vanish yes but then it's simple external negation Hegel would have said it's not an inherent negation like I reproduce myself then a stronger animal comes eats me up or an asteroid hits me I die okay but this is Hegel would have put it totally external contingency it can happen of course but it's irrelevant the principle again of life is that the universality or the one remains by itself through the other you interact with the other and it is this very interaction which sustains you as the one and of course then this sounds very dialectical like oh my God you see how it's the very change which allows me to remain the same the moment I no longer change I die I am not even the same and so on and so on but this is not what Hegel is about why not for Hegel there is something quite different which goes on me in what he calls spirit human history it is imagine it like this if oh my God I check this what what is this can one okay no no I will say something dirty like Wolfgang fuck off and so on he will not be able to I like Wolfgang but he pretends to be liberal you know he always accuses me you are a proto-Stalinist but then did you notice how from time to time you know he is from East Germany no he denies it now but the Stalinist how do you call it discipline blah blah how then all of a sudden you talk all of a sudden you get a trace of this harshness like yesterday did you notice how when we were talking about Adorno Habermas and he said yes Habermas is a verräter this is very hard to say this is this brutal a traitor you know like all this gentle Wolfgang you know oh this lassen gelassenheit and then verräter and so on I love it I told Wolfgang he needs more of that okay so again here we have the one or the same life is this how and here we have continuous changes life is this how the one maintains itself through the very process of changes again as I told at individual level you you have to change to interact precisely to remain the same and again people usually think this is dialectics you see how sameness and unity are connected the only way to remain the same is to change blah blah blah with Hegel something different happens let's say we start with one we have a process but then as I developed yesterday you remember when I said how an idea in its realization undermines itself we have one an idea I want to be this then I realize myself in particular life and the idea itself dissolves and another element as it were takes over the change is at this level for Hegel the change the universal itself it's not just it's not just the medium which remains the same the changes are at this level so that we people usually say but it all remains with Hegel within the same totality the subject externalizes itself then it swallows back the otherness and so on yes it the idea comes back to itself but to put it in vulgar terms it's no longer the same idea the idea this disappears and through the process another idea comes up which idea which was previously just a moment here what do I mean by this for example take take Marx puts this in wonderfully simple terms take the relationship of Money and Capital first money is the encompassing no even at the zero level what runs the process are simply commodities commodity is the master you produce something that you want to exchange and money is just a subordinate moment no in the sense of I don't know I produce something you produce something we we exchange but then it gets too complex what if you have something that I want and we need a mediator money blah blah so it's money here at the elementary level money still appears to be a subordinate moment then medium of exchange then something happens with Capital it is that money which was previously a subordinate moment becomes the subject of the process it's no longer commodity-money-commodity it's no longer that you know this again as Marx put it in a simple pre-capitalist exchange the movement is commodity-money-commodity I sell something in order to buy another thing with Capital money which was just the subordinating mediator becomes the subject so that it is what encompasses the process the true subject of the process becomes what was previously just a subordinate moment was money itself the same goes for Marx for production Marx put this in wonderful terms when he says that from the individual standpoint of the producer you produce to satisfy your needs but from the global standpoint needs are generated in order to keep the production running that the true goal of the historical process is not to satisfy your need but is the development of production itself and so on and so on so is that Say's Law sorry Say's Law is that what it's called Say's Law in economics oh no how do you call it is here I'm an idiot please S A Y S S A Y S okay yeah yeah yeah but what does it mean what does it say this law the need generates the production I mean that the production generates the need yes Say's Law you produce the goods and need will arise yeah although yeah I didn't even know that it's called Say's Law because I mean it's already how should I put it the again Marx said this already in a different way and so on the the production even the early Marx whom I intensely dislike with humanist Marx and so on kind of reverses the usual capitalist formula a finite need filled by a infinite yeah yeah yeah you create the goods who cares and then eventually the need will just pop right out of it yeah yeah yeah you can say that but what I okay but let's remind sorry oh yeah it sounds it sounds like Lewis Mumford's ideas on on technological determinism that the way of doing something becomes the reason for doing something yeah yeah but yeah okay but let's not lose a track now I agree but these are all examples you see how and this is what Hegel is trying to say how the process is a process of something a subject what happens for Hegel in spiritual properly dialectics is that it's not only that the same reproduces itself through changes is that the very encompassing unity as it were of a process changes what you know something which was previously a subordinated moment becomes the totalizing moment so what happens in history is not that a totality differentiates itself no that historical process is rather a constant process of retotalization what changes is not that you have let us say let's take state again you don't have a concept of state which then realizes itself in different forms what is for Hegel at stake in historical changes is that the very general notion of what is at what a state means changes you the struggle is at the level of universality let me give you an example it's a simple one but I'm not a
let me make something clear with all my evil so that you will not misunderstand
me if when I say let's take a simple example the idiot I'm addressing here it's me not you that is to say I'm always
obsessed precisely because I'm dealing with theorists who are usually considered difficult to read even for
some people bluffing like Lacan Hegel I'm obsessed with this idea if you can't put it clearly don't bluff about it and so on so I think that again we are back at what consciousness is and so on you know the great art is not to play this complexity the great art and here this is Hegel's strength often to provide a simple formula or image and then all
of a sudden oh my God you say now I see which is why I will later come to a joke which I think it's the ultimate Hegelian joke probably you know it but let's go back to it
let's take I think I mention this in one of my books let's take the history of philosophy you cannot say this is what I mean and Hegel means with either concrete universality or this
change at the very level of universality or historicity proper when you read an introduction to philosophy you usually get it's very simple point again that I will be making you usually get some kind of qualification some kind of general classification it can be of philosophical disciplines or it can be of different orientations you can say what would be the usual thing to say if we that we have today three four main tendencies in philosophy we have different modes of analytic philosophy more traditional philosophy of science language analysis or now more cognitivism brain sciences we have phenomenology we have deconstructionism we have versions of German idealism so you simply differentiate but you know where I challenge you this would be the Hegelian challenge that if you look at it closely you will see that no such mapping is neutral every such mapping presupposes already a certain philosophical standpoint there is no metalanguage it is clear that for example usually such a distinction of philosophy either has an analytical bias where the story is and me taking be very arrogant today the story is that only with contemporary analytic philosophy post-classical not that logical empiricism but this contemporary cognitivism philosophy simply became another positive knowledge science so that the gap is continental philosophy is poetry it can have interesting metaphorical insights but a Heideggerian would have put a totally different accent that analytic philosophy is not a proper philosophy at all it's basically just some kind of positive description that the task of philosophy is to think to reflect on I simplify it what Heidegger calls ereignis event or lichtung in the sense of opening clearing the way the meaning of being being is disclosed to us this kind of a ultra-transcendental reflection of what historically for us today at least something really exists being and so on so for him that's not so what I'm telling you is that is that there is no neutral classification that how should I put it each philosophical orientation is not only itself but it's itself and a certain view on the totality and the point is that you cannot step on your own shoulder and give a neutral classification every classification each the totality of philosophy appears to you differently if you are analytic philosopher if you are a deconstructionist if you are a deconstructionist the big divide will be between you know this constant attempt how to overcome metaphysics the story is there is a certain metaphysical closure and then the measure is how much did you break through to some other sphere which is why and here Badiou once wonderfully annoyed Wolfgang where Wolfgang was attacking in one debate years ago at these stupid evening talks me and Alain as being too dualistic you know you still think in old metaphysical category this that dualistic but he says no today we live in a different era we are entering different domains post-metaphysical blah blah and then of course Badiou in a very nasty way said so your dualism is dualism and non-dualism it's a self-referential dualism which is even a strong even a stronger one no also I remember this was a nice story oh it was so evil she was so mad although I am friendly with her Avital Ronell gave a talk some maybe some of you were there some four years ago I think where on Wagner and Nietzsche and her point was that the the great achievement of Nietzsche was to find the strength to betray Wagner his master teacher and then she went into all this poetry of how the creative moment of thinking is the betrayal of the master no and then with one bitchy remark Badiou ruined the show he just asked her okay where is your betrayal of Derrida and then it was incredible how this simple remark there was also the other how is he called another deconstructionist follower of Derrida I forgot his name the German guy who was there and Avital's answer was to immediate resort to what Badiou would have called paraconsistent logic yes it's not really always there are exceptions no then then some how is he called something the deconstructionist did a very desperate move he said Derrida doesn't need this because he is so creative that he is all the time already betraying himself and so on no it was quite funny to note how they okay that's a nice Hegelian moment but let me go on so philosophy then you see at the very simple point the wager of Hegel's notion of historicity or concrete universality it's not that there is no universality there is universality but that the life is in universality itself we are at the level of and this is history history is history of universalities history means precisely there is no metalanguage in the sense of there is no you cannot step out of you on your shoulder and see globally how things are every all-encompassing view on history is already part of history for example even in politics you remember if you are not too young that now I'm bitchy but it's unfortunately true that you remember that once upon a time in politics there was something called left and right maybe you remember those old old times you know what's here you have this what I'm talking about at its purest left and right yes but you cannot give I challenge you to give a neutral description of the social political space where you will say what is left what is right if you look closely you will see that every description of what is left and what is right is already either leftist or rightist description because left and right are not just two political position within a political space the totality of the space appears to you differently if you are a right-winger or a left-winger to put it in very simplistic terms not always but fundamentally the basic rightist motive is that of organic stability first a true right-winger doesn't say I am a right-winger he likes to they like to distinguish the organic center and the extreme and the extremes for them it would be this organic stable center and the extreme excesses for the left-winger it's the opposite it's that the fundamental fact is struggle as such so you see my point this is what Hegel means by historicity proper that again it's not only that a universal idea then articulates itself that for example philosophy subdivides into this that philosophy and so on each particularity as it were has its own universality the only way to define what is philosophy is to go through all forms of philosophy not because of a simple evolutionism philosophy develops but again because there is no neutral universal notion of philosophy you know the movement is at the level of universality itself that that would be being to put it in very simple point and which is why in politics for Hegel the historical moment proper occurs in this in the moments when a certain historical form is threatened and then a new form arises and Hegel is very clear here this is the role of so-called great historical personalities heroes who are at the same time criminals criminals in the sense of outside the law and the way Hegel is usually read is that yes you as a hero follow your arrogant instincts like of course Caesar wanted power but you are following the line of what Hegel calls cunning of reason you are an unconscious tool of a historical reason you think you are following your narrow motives egotism and so on but in reality you just you are just an instrument of the higher rationality reasoning history and so on and so on I don't think that it I don't think it works as such it works like this in Hegel I think we should here take into account what I already said and rather see the process as much more open when a certain historical form is falling apart there is a moment of genuine contingency and then the hero does something and if he is lucky you have here following what in his wonderful text you should read him he's not an idiot the guy who died the British philosopher Bernard Williams you know what he calls moral luck this is a deeply Hegelian idea the idea that that even in morality you cannot in advance measure the ethical status of an act by the purity of intention whatever that it depends on the very ethical status of an act depends on how it turns and so on and so on so again Hegel's idea is rather that something which is a contingency may through a repetition then establish itself as necessity the example here would have been precisely Caesar you know Hegel uses this nice paradox that Caesar is at the same time the name of an individual and then it became a title that's for Hegel the function of repetition first you do it you fail but you return as universality in order for a thing to assert itself as necessity it has to repeat itself through again first you have a person Caesar then it's repeated as a title and in a wonderfully funny way Hegel goes through history giving other examples of how Napoleon also had to lose twice first in then in no so that his was lost was a necessity so now let's go on what does Hegel means by this retrospective character of the meaning of our acts that's again now I will do a little bit of Antigone because that's Hegel's basic insight that Hegel is not an intentionalist his position is extremely interesting here very modern if you want Hegel's point is not you do something that you know all this game of intentions you intend to do something that for Hegel the meaning of an act arises only through the act itself for Hegel the rule is rather that you intend to do something and it's only through the meaning oh sorry through the act itself that you discover retroactively what you really meant to do meaning is not pre-existing Hegel is not here in this sense an internist Hegel is totally opposed to this false hermeneutic idea of what do I know what did you mean with that I would have to know your mind to know what did you mean it no for Hegel you yourself don't know what you meant you wanted something but it's through the act that your that it becomes retroactively clear to you what you meant and again in a radical reading of Hegel I claim this doesn't mean that somebody else does know that you know that you are just a tool you think you are doing A but some divine intelligence reasoning history controls it no it's contingency reason of history is it's it's it's history is as Hegel would as Gould Stephen Jay Gould the Marxist Darwinian would have put it one big process of exaptation Hegel I think is the arch theorist of exaptation you do something meant for a certain goal it's exapted it's but in a in a improvised open way I will try to prove this to you now by taking the big example from phenomenology Antigone it is so elementary that I didn't want you to to give you the literature but if you want tomorrow I can give you some parts of Hegel which are worth reading I prefer this arrogant way not you read Hegel then we interpret me I tell you what to look in Hegel then you read Hegel the model explaining sorry yeah yeah okay so for Hegel what is crucial as you may know is the passage from tragedy to comedy comedy is for Hegel the truth of tragedy he doesn't mean the usual thing that tragedy is not the way Hegel is interpreted here is again in a false pseudo-dialectical way people usually think like this once you are caught into the action you participate it's tragic is the real struggle but then from the position of the universal idea you see how all these struggles are just moments in a global unity so this is wisdom how oh we fight our struggles but you know all these ridiculously stupid proverbs like aren't we only elements in some higher theater piece written by God we don't even know what and so on and so on I hate proverbs I think proverbs are the stupidity of language embodied what are proverbs whatever you do you always find a proverb to justify it I claim let's say I'm doing something which is a little bit risky I succeed what will be your reaction if you are stupid I'm not saying you are probably you will tell something like I don't know in Slovene we have proverbs like only those who risk profit or whatever like proverbs justifying the necessity of taking a risk let us say that I fail oh you will have again I don't know we in Balkan at least in Slovenia we have a nice proverb this skeptical it says something like you cannot urinate against the wind you know and incidentally if you talk about slips of tongue which produce obscene effects this is my favorite ultimate obscenity once I made this point in Paris at a seminar by Jacques-Alain Miller and I wanted to translate of course it was in French into French this you cannot piss urinate against the wind the wind I confused the French words and I confused city I instead of on ne peut pisser I said on ne peut chier you cannot shit contre le vent and Miller was here at he just looked coldly at me and said the wind must be really strong in your country yes that was a nice moments of my Parisian there no okay but let's okay let me let's go on so it's not this position of wisdom that Hegel means by the passage from tragedy to comedy he means something else what he wants to illustrate apropos Antigone is again precisely this retrospectivity of the true meaning of our acts you do something retroactively you discover but for Hegel this discovery is constitutive you get my point it's not that some higher intelligence knew from the very beginning and no there is no reasoning history in this sense reason is always retroactive you can tell a story but only afterwards okay what's Hegel's point of Antigone Antigone for Hegel deploys what happens when a subject acts upon the premises of some what Hegel calls ethics of immediate substantial custom the what the idea is that you know how Antigone acts confronting Creon it's not a reflexive acting it's not the idea her point is not to argue in this typical modern way conflicting ethical claims she simply does it because it's in her nature to do it she is referring as a fact to some something some unwritten laws compel her to do it what she is doing and for Hegel this immediate reliance on this ethical substance you know Antigone is not thinking strategically like in such a situation you act like this like that it is this kind of ethical substantial immediacy here is this beautiful quote Zeus did not announce those laws laws which justify her resistance to Creon Zeus did not announce those laws to me and justice living with the gods below sent no such laws for men I did not think anything which you proclaimed strong enough to let a mortal override the gods and their unwritten and unchanging laws they are not just for today or yesterday but exist forever and no one knows where they first appeared so I did not mean to let a fear of any human will let to my punishment punishment among the gods so again her position here is what Hegel calls immediate ethical substance you rely on your let's call it very naively spontaneous ethical instinct I cannot do it otherwise that's the substantial justice that is an which is an organic part of my being Hegel is very precise here he doesn't oppose this to freedom now let's do a little bit of analysis Hegel is not saying that Antigone is as it were dominated by some compulsive mechanism no no this is already the modern notion if you experience something as some kind of a blind mechanism which compels you to act in a certain way it means you already have a minimum of distance to experience it as something externally imposed which is why Hegel is totally right to say that this idea of l'homme machine we humans are just victims dominated by some objective mechanism this is a typical position of modern freedom because you know you already in order to experience something as a compulsion you already must have a minimal position outside if you are in the compulsion it's not a compulsion and now this is why Antigone is for Hegel also the figure of love what is love love is on the one hand the ultimate freedom we all know you cannot fall in love on a on an order you can't be although okay it's more complex in politics everything is possible we do say you must love your parents you must love your country but that's another point let's not go into it what I'm saying is that let's say if you fall in love that's the paradox of love on the one hand it's free free in the sense that you shouldn't be if you are forced by yourself or by an external authority to love somebody it's no longer love so love is in this sense free you feel all your being in authentic passionate love but at the same time it's not free in the sense that you have absolutely no choice you know what I mean like you cannot no I will not point out so that you will not you must already probably have a long list to report me to some politically correct committee or what I don't want to act but okay let's I will look up okay so that you will not you know if I say now I want to fall in love with the lady there there there let's compare the moment I approach it's not love love is always the choice of love is always retroactive in authentic love you never know when you fall in love all of a sudden retroactively you discover I am in love you cannot the now is never here and here you have I'm so sad we don't have time for it the most subversive beautiful speculations of the other great German idealist Schelling who goes into this how the highest freedom is always unconscious namely contrary to the common sense which tells us free acts must be conscious for Schelling the ultimate freedom is unconscious in the sense of this fundamental decision which you with your conscious ego like fundamental decision like the choice of a love partner for example which is contingent totally free like love is by definition contingent you never know in whom love can totally you never know in whom you end up falling in love but the point is that it is necessarily experienced as something not even blindly imposed it's simply your nature you cannot do it otherwise and I like this Schelling's nice totalitarian view his idea is that even if you have no choice you are still fully responsible for it that what you cannot do is to do is to say he even takes this theological example he says it was forever decided determined in the very fate of Judas that he will betray Christ he didn't have a choice it was his destiny but nonetheless he is fully responsible for it and then he makes a much more appropriate not such a stupid antisemitic concrete example and it's true when he says that when you encounter a truly evil person and I did encounter some of them it's true you can see that their evil is part of their nature they simply are like that but nonetheless they are responsible okay Schelling's solution of this enigma which you find already in Kant is a wonderful one is a kind of a transcendental a priori act it sounds idealist but it's not it's very close to what in psychoanalysis we would have called the choice of the fundamental fantasy that in some kind of atemporal a priori act we are as Sartre would have put it responsible for our project for what we are of course in our temporal reality we experience this as our nature you cannot change it but fundamentally at an unconscious level we are responsible for it and this is how also Freud says when you know Freud already answers this boring Foucauldian approach before Foucault's time of course that psychoanalysis is comparable to confession you have to confess your blah blah no Freud says psychoanalysis is much worse in confession you are responsible for what you did for blah blah in for what you know you should tell everything in psychoanalysis you are responsible even for what you don't know and what you didn't do and so on no because again it's this let's call it choice of fundamental fantasy but okay now let's go further here you can see the difference between what Hegel calls the substantial ethics this naivete of ethical substance where you simply act like this because you cannot do it otherwise and the modern ethics the modern ethics for Hegel is the paradigm of modern ethics is Immanuel Kant there Kant brings to extreme this idea of reflexive character of all ethical norms in the sense of for Kant the laws that you have moral laws moral norms whatever that you follow are never simply given to you you are responsible for them this is what Kant means by radical freedom and so on that how should I put it when Kant makes you what does Kant mean by subjective autonomy which is exactly the opposite of Antigone he doesn't want to say oh you are free to to act autonomously no what Kant prohibits is you know this typical ethical excuse let's say I have to hurt you as part of my duty I have to do something because of my moral duty which will hurt you and you are my friend and then the usual hypocritical excuse is I'm sorry but I know it will hurt you but I cannot help it it's not my choice it's my duty no you cannot say this for Kant for Kant you are not only responsible to do your duty you are also responsible to define what your duty is you should stand behind it there is again this typical modernity there is no substantial other which guarantees as it were to you that this is your duty that's modern freedom it's kind of a more reflexive freedom it's not only freedom you can follow your duty or not it's freedom in the sense of responsibility or so to put it in another way people usually used to we usually say there is no excuse for not doing your duty you have to do it Kant is adding another twist to it his point is there is also no excuse for doing your duty in the sense of you cannot say sorry that's my duty no you have to stand fully behind it this is why going back to can you give me a good example yes yesterday the Scottish justice minister yeah yesterday also yeah and he says I'm doing my job I didn't choose this moment I'm doing my job and he stood behind it he didn't blame anybody I don't agree with him or whatever but you give good example you know what bothered me okay let's not lose time on this but I can what would like to reply to this just as an example you know what interests me if that I have no sympathy for terrorists blah blah but something did intrigue me if you watch TV did you notice that Scottish guy I think the father of one of the victims all the time who said if that is true it really puts everything in the new light that they discovered that there was some break into where the luggage was kept at Heathrow the night before for this flight and that not only they didn't inquire into this but that this entire event was suppressed which is with great probability probably where the bomb was I mean if this is true then it's truly it's not just Arab terrorists looking for excuses and so on no that's not that's not the real story the real story is there is a strong suspicion but not usual suspects but mainstream media that something is being suppressed that he really was not guilty he was more likely Iran and Libya yeah again I'm not here too paranoid I don't buy those stories although again I know there are some shady clips you know those stories of how do you call it of the September 11th was all staged by I don't know enough about it no but generally I tend to be more skeptical you know why because my position is that ultimately I don't think it matters what matters is how it was used ideologically I don't I how should I put it I think that paranoid theories tend to overdo their what they don't get is that the point they are trying to make can be made also without this paranoid surplus as it were no but okay let's go back to Kant so you know this story here I respectfully disagree with Hannah Arendt this story that Kant is the philosopher of unconditional duty whatever you should do your duty and that in this sense Eichmann was genuinely a Kantian because you know that Eichmann's defense was a Kantian one he explicitly referred to Kant he said I just did what I perceived as my duty my duty was to follow the orders for my country and Führer's law command was for me my duty so I was just a Kantian I think it's totally wrong because what Kant prohibits you is precisely this way of erasing it's not me I was just following orders no you have to stand behind you cannot you cannot turn yourself just into an instrument that's what Kant's autonomy is it's a much more radical position much more radical position than it may appear and incidentally don't dismiss Kant as too easy Kant is an extremely interesting philosopher where things get so complex there is no Hegel without Kant because my view of history of philosophy is a very simple one you will laugh true philosophy is something which started with Kant and ended with Hegel before they were doing some confused intuitions after they tried to overturn but nobody even understood Hegel and so on and so on everything happened there so what is so interesting in Kant here is the same as with Hegel let's do a short we are back to Hegel I didn't lose my track Hegelian critique of Kant Kant often makes a philosophical choice and then as Badiou would have put it he behaves paraconsistently no he wants to withdraw he's afraid of the consequences which is
why
today we should repeat Kant and I think what Lacan did is to repeat Kant in this sense Lacanian ethics of psychoanalysis in a way is very Kantian what do I mean by this let me give a couple of examples which will interest you first minor examples which are funny but crucial you know how Kant often says something and then is afraid of the consequences and withdraws for example Kant asks the question at some point in his Metaphysics of Morals rather of Customs Sitten are there situations where you are allowed to kill another human being with impunity then he he enumerates two such possibilities one is the relatively obvious one in his life the duel of honor apart from war which is collective killing of course that the duel if you have a duel I challenge you you kill me it's okay it may be not legal but it's somehow ethically acceptable for me to kill you maybe then he does an example which is terrifying to kill an illegitimate child and he uses the terrifying parallel with smuggled commodity he said in the same way that a state has the right to destroy a smuggled commodity because it physically exist but not legally it's not covered by the law in the same way an illegitimate child exists just physically not legally and parents have the right to kill it the mother and then in a typical Kantian move in a footnote he said of course this doesn't mean we should really do it blah blah but it's there another Kantian madness and Hegel was shocked by this you know in the same book Metaphysics of Morals Kant's extremely brutally consequent definition of marriage you must know it it's wonderful that it's the contract between the two adults of a mutual use of sex organs for pleasure none of this you know higher unity blah blah and Kant gives a wonderful answer when let's not go into this what I want to tell you is that he is consequent here because it's not just this one point because if you look at the page later this is Kant at his comical best he asks the question if a husband runs away from a wife does the wife have the right to call police to bring the husband back Kant's
answer
is yes why because the husband ran
away with
a piece of property which according to the
marriage
contract was the property of a wife the penis so it's not some spiritual unity it's just you know bringing back property and so on and so on now let's go to more serious what did Hegel answer about the contract pretty pretty boring that Kant doesn't see the higher spiritual unity and that it's not just sexual pleasure this is Hegel at his worst I claim that he plays this all the spiritual unity stuff and so on okay but then where things go really great is in what is maybe the best the most provocative Kant the late Kant his write his last big book on it's called Religion within the Limits of Reason Alone where he as you probably know proposes the this strange category of and you will see immediately why the oscillation is crucial what he first calls diabolical evil what's his problem then his problem is that you could be there are elementary forms of evil
which
are simple egotism like I don't know I don't know you have money there I push you away I steal the money why because I want the money for profitable reasons or whatever I sorry for tasteless examples I rape you for pleasure I humiliate you to win or whatever it's you know it's evil things you do for obvious profitable reasons and Kant is well aware that these reasons can be that this works even for good and that if you do it for some what Kant calls pathological reason Kant doesn't mean it in the sense of clinical pathology but in the sense of contingent immediate empirical circumstances it disqualifies what you do as a true ethical act for example I help you but I do this even if I am not aware of it in order to impress others no what really pushes me is how nice I will appear in the eyes of others or even a step further even if it's only that it makes me feel well that I will admire myself it also disqualifies it so then for Kant a true ethical act must be done that's his famous definition purely autonomously only for the sake of duty you did it because you knew you have to do it because it's your duty not because of any profit even if it's a very sublime profit of feeling well then Kant encounters a problem where he asks the question but is it possible also to imagine a radical diabolical evil along the same lines an evil which you do not because of any profit that you will get from it pleasure power humiliating the other whatever but just for the sake of it that you are as it were evil out of principle and here again he oscillates he starts by affirming it but then he quickly not explicitly but if you follow if you follow closely the text you can see it he gets the terrifying consequence which is that if you allow for an evil act like this radical evil then it is undistinguishable from the good because Kant defines good as something that you do just for the sake of principle not for pathological reasons not because it brings you esteem pleasure money but just because you got to do it now if you allow for this kind of radical evil the and in this sense here are things get complex this is why Kant then is forced to save his notion of the good is forced to proclaim that this kind of diabolical radical evil is not possible evil done just for the sake of it but that he then quickly reinterprets radical evil as simply a radical tendency in our human nature to do evil just that evil is not just a kind of a contingent element some of us have it some not it's an something that cannot be eradicated an eternal constitutive propensity of our being which of course makes it much more inoffensive what's Kant's problem this is why Lacan then maybe you know the line proposed that Kant with Sade what does Lacan aim at why is this because for Lacan when he says Kant-Sade is the truth of Kant be very careful Lacan's point is not Kant was secretly a sadist this is the standard reading no that beneath this Kantian duty is this sadistic pleasure haha you have to do your duty even if it would be a catastrophe this kind of a superego you know like the proverbial school teacher who beats the children his pupils and says to himself oh it makes me cry but I have to do it it's duty it's for their own good but really it's for your sadistic pleasure this is how Kant's moral rigorism is usually no what Lacan claims is that it's not it's not Kant who is a sadist it's Sade who is a Kantian that is to say Marquis de Sade's injunction of this unconditional pleasure is beyond the pleasure principle it's somehow it's in a way a choice of evil for the sake of it and as I repeated in two of my books you know which is the best example of this I cannot restrain from repeating it do you know Don Giovanni not earlier version there is more complex but Mozart's opera you know what happens at the end when the stone guest arrives and confronts Don Giovanni read it carefully the libretto the stone guest is not there to punish Don Giovanni he comes there to help him he basically tells Don Giovanni your life is at an end you will now die now I give you a final chance if before dying you repent your sins then you still can be saved if not you go to hell you will burn forever what Don Giovanni does is he said no no no seven times I don't repent but look this is pure ethical act because Don Giovanni knows he has nothing to gain by remaining faithful to his sinful life he is at the end the only he gains nothing if he repents he can be saved if he persists in his sins he will burn forever and nonetheless he insists it's evil as precisely evil be thou my good it's even if you pay the highest price I insist in my evil and this brings us to this typical romantic figure you know the Byronesque demonic hero this this is where things get interesting with Kant you can also see where Sade was a Kantian at another level if you read Marquis de Sade there is first an obvious way to see way to see where Sade is a Kantian I mean like one of the most boring books that I've read which is why I didn't read to the end is that Days of Sodom you know how it gets more and more purely formalized up to number there are at least some descriptions of the acts but then around two it gets more and more a purely mathematical permutation like take a cow a dog two young ladies and two boys and they screw in this way then the next one take one cow three boys it becomes how should I put it it's purely intellectual cold it's the coldest thing you can imagine there is no earthly passionate need and to go on if you read Sade carefully you can see what's his problem he starts as a primitive naturalist he claims we have a nature which not only wants to create but also wants to destroy the natural way is this circle of life things have to fall apart so that new things are born and so on so you have this then anti-oppressive message religion is unnatural is suppressing our true nature so let's throw off religious chains let's fully live our nature but then in a much more interesting way Sade gets the point that in this way we just exchange one chain one slavery for another we are no longer we are no longer slaves of God but we still remain slaves of nature and here then comes to Sade the idea of what he calls absolute crime an an act of violence which is so radical that it doesn't only doesn't only fit the flow of nature but that it interrupts the very flow of nature like it cuts this which is why Sade was so interested in this radical death where you don't just kill someone so that then out of this another person is born whatever but you as it were stop the very cycle of reproduction and so on and what's my point here that what Kant calls an autonomous act is precisely the same thing is as Kant put it something which cannot be accounted for in the terms of the chain of natural causalities it's an act ex nihilo out of nowhere so things are much more complex much more complex here but nonetheless let's go a little bit further before the break if you allow me with Hegel so again back to Antigone she is the opposite of this modern reflexive ethics where you don't just do your duty the most more painful part is to decide what your duty is you know this is a typically modern Freudian but already in Hegel you find this suspicion that your this is unimaginable for Antigone for this naive world of antiquity the idea that you cannot trust your substantial ethical instincts they can cheat you can experience something as your duty but what if you are doing it for some secretly pathological reasons to profit in a secret way this universalized suspicion is typically modern attitude okay let's go on with Antigone so this is her immediate ethical nature but Hegel tries to prove that there is already a crack in this edifice that Antigone's universe collapses how his point is that this is her starting point of Antigone the that these unwritten eternal laws which are simply here are telling her that a dead person should be properly buried through the ritual and so on and that's her duty that's what she is she cannot help it but once she does the forbidden act performing the funeral rite for Polyneikos how do you pronounce it Polynices whatever okay I will stick to the Greek way and confronts the consequences the threat that she will die while still alive you know that she will be excommunicated buried alive only then she becomes aware of the actual rule that guided her through the act she discovers beneath this universality respect the dead they all deserve funeral rites the concrete privileged example why okay Hegel gives then a wonderful reason why because the link to the brother is the link to pure otherness what kind of other is brother here we encounter the Hegel's reading that here we encounter the limitation of Antigone brother is for Antigone an other deprived of all personal features which is why Antigone's deed you know when she says it doesn't matter what my brother did it may all be true what Creon claims he was a traitor wanted to destroy our city and so on but but he is my brother so Hegel's point is that that's the limit of this naive ethics that the respect you pay to another no longer concerns the living but the dead to love someba someone for what he is not for what he did is ultimately to love him as a corpse that is to say that's for him the inherent limitation again of Antigone of this naive love that it works only if the other whom you unconditionally love is is reduced to a dead one okay here Antigone catastrophically again confronts the limitation and so on and so on but how then do we pass from this to tragedy ah this is the beauty of Hegel Hegel's point and I think he was absolutely right is that it's not that after the Greek tragedies there comes comedy either already in the Greek time you know how it was usually done four games I think per day this like not double bill as in Hollywood when I was young but quadruple bill how should I put it no that it was you know three tragedies and a comedy not only in this way and also not only historically in the sense that you know that later in Roman times we have comedy for Hegel there is a precise point precisely as a reaction to realizing the deadlock of her love this mortifying dimension that a comical element enters occurs in Antigone herself let me be precise here how Hegel noticed something weird happening to Antigone after she pathetically assumes her fate you know after she is condemned and she knows she will die she totally changes if you look the play attentively you will even notice that only at that time she becomes beautiful sublime before she is like a nasty bitch remember her conversations with Ismene her she sister how brutal she is towards her and so on I mean if there is a so-called warm human being in Antigone it's Ismene Antigone is a bitch I mean fuck you I wouldn't like to have Antigone for my sister if you ask me no because she would celebrate me after I'm dead what she does to cope with her predicament is that's Hegel's point she starts to act she loses this natural immediacy I organically do my duty she displays already a level of self-awareness and reflexivity about her role let me give you one of the quotes where she says I've heard about a guest of ours daughter of Tantalus from Phrygia she went to an excruciating death in Sipylus right on the mountain peak the stone there just like clinging ivy wore her down and now so people say the snow and rain never leave her there as filaments below her weeping eyes her neck is wet with tears God brings me to a final rest which most resembles hers why is this comedy for Hegel she is already composing poems on herself you know what she is doing here it's no longer immediate suffering it's as if I am dying and I say imagine I am like a hero and so on you know what I mean she is immediately as it were mythifying herself she is using metaphors to designate herself displaying a self-consciously artistic ability involved in playing the role of a character in other words at this moment Antigone is no longer immediately Antigone as we put it she starts to play Antigone she starts to construct a role of Antigone and this for Hegel this is how he defines comedy for him in comedy he gives a very strange definition of comedy which appears counter-intuitive but I think it's wonderfully correct for Hegel in a comedy the gap between the actor as real person and the role he acts is displayed on the stage itself what does Hegel mean by this not that you do not act your role but you comment on it but something different something that let me give you an example what makes it comical a certain situation is that you act a certain role but then and it's part of your role as an actor I'm not talking about as acting that you include some kind of ironic comments on what on what you are doing an example for example do you remember those I think this is the famous feature of those I Love Lucy Lucille Ball series how you know when something ridiculous happens she looks into the camera and has you know yeah this you know that's the moment of reflexivity but this is not the real Lucille Ball this is the comical reflexivity like directly addressing the public what's happening here and so on and the idea is that Antigone at that point becomes Lucille Ball if you want it's her version her version of saying this so again for Hegel the crucial thing that happened with the passage from comedy tragedy to comedy is that you lose this organic immediacy you no longer are what you are you play yourself you play a role of what you are now let's go a step further this Hegel's point is here a wonderful one it's quite the opposite of the usual postmodern the bad postmodernism the postmodern version of the so-called return of the real wisdom you know some people think it's somehow how should I put it avant-garde radical when you awaken people from the illusion of reality a theater and when you make them aware that it's only a theater piece it's only a film I don't know when I was young for example it was fashionable to slaughter a chicken on stage really the idea was this pseudo-Brechtianism you know destroy the illusion make people aware and so on now here if you allow me a brief reference to Lacanian real this is not Lacanian real this is exactly I claim the escape from the real for Lacan real is precisely that what you try to escape from when you escape into reality you are afraid that the illusion would grab you too deeply that the real of the illusion would grab you how do I mean this for example where is the real in sexuality sorry back to my vulgar nature I read somewhere that one of the medieval strategies to cure a man from lust for women was to look at a beautiful I will not show at any of you not to be a brutal let's say this is a woman okay so to look at a woman who is now young beautiful and imagine either how she will be years from now without teeth stinking and so on whatever or even what evil imagine how she is within her body you know it's look a nice skin but then you know all the shit the intestines and so on and so on so the idea is confront that real and it will cure you of desire but that's not the Lacanian real the Lacanian real is the this is wisdom this is wisdom confront reality and so on for Lacan the real is precisely the pure power of this surface which may drag you into it real is for Lacan pure appearance it's not this idea of we have appearances and we have to penetrate the appearances into the real real is for Lacan what you get at once you tear away the the the the screen of appearances real is the spectral power of appearance as such you know which movie portrays this nicely I hope you saw it fuck it I like it I admit it Jim Carrey The Mask the real is not the real behind the mask it's just his fucking stupid face and his face is stupid enough the you know the real is and here you see why real is for Lacan death drive and compulsion to repeat real you remember when he puts the mask on he gets caught into this absolute compulsion to act like a cartoon character this is the spectral undead real he becomes an entity of pure drive he he even uses once I mean the character he plays a wonderful phrase where he says it's horrible I'm totally lost because I can do whatever I can do whatever I want and so on so what I and I made if you don't believe me here you can encounter I made a very brutal I don't want to repeat it it wasn't nice experiment with my son here when he was young he was a little to be fear I showed him my I approached him with a mask on he was a little bit afraid then I put the mask off look it's only your stupid fucking father then I put the mask on he was terrified even more again and he was right is he connected the no collected too in the sense that he knew that there is more reality in the mask that the you know the real is not the reality behind the mask the real is that spectral excess of the mask itself yes so if we confront for instance the Aristotle and Bertolt Brecht notion of theater in Lacanian terms the real is the Aristotle catharsis I mean oh you got me here here I okay there are limits to my bluffing I'm tempted to say I don't know I don't know enough to answer you properly because I maybe should have said this but I am much spontaneously I'm on the side of Brecht here the way I would have saved Brecht would have been to claim that this reading of Brecht this so-called alienation alienation yeah I prefer not to say alienation because for Brecht it's the opposite no like it's not alienation in this Marxist sense it's just this denaturalization no I think it's not Brecht's deepest message is not be aware although Brecht sometimes talks about this be aware that it's only a illusion reality behind no Brecht was fully aware of this logic of the mask which is why for example my favorite Brecht of course the most Stalinist one is that famous Die Maßnahme (The Measures Taken) where a couple of comrades have to sacrifice one of their it was usually read as a justification of Stalinist purges which is totally not true that play precisely was never performed in Soviet Union they they and you have this wonderful notion also of a forced choice then the comrades tell to the young revolutionary be a tell him there is a custom now we have to kill you now we will ask you do you want do you accept to be killed but whatever you say we will kill you or something like giving you a choice but but what is so crucial there if you read the play is that what was the mistake of the young comrade that when he saw suffering he tear off the mask the mask the central scene of the play is when he and says but people I'm here to help you and so on and so on that was the betrayal that was the betrayal which is why again and then you have all this Brecht's extreme almost comic revolutionary masochism where after killing him I love this the chorus of these comrades sings a song where they say oh if I were to be the last piece of shit of dirt which has to be cleansed so that the room is clean at the end and so on and so on again what I claim is this why also Brecht was against psychology he was always for a form you know Brecht also played this game of and this is what I like in Brecht this his alienation I think it's not so much reality it's actors commenting on their role but not from the standpoint of as real person but from much more abstract theoretical point like I like in Brecht this totally unrealistic way where you know an actor comes on stage addresses the public and says I am a journalist who is paid by imperialists to spread reactionary propaganda now I will approach a worker and I will try to corrupt him and so on and so on this kind of a fake transparency which again I don't think it's it's reality I mean Brecht was deeply fascinated by the real in the mask you know that above his table he had the Japanese mask of some evil spirit this kind of a distorted face and he wrote a wonderful poem terrifying maybe claiming that this mask is there to remind him how difficult is to be truly evil that any idiot can be good you just help people blah blah but to sorry no I was wondering you mentioned backtracking to you mentioned Lacan and the spectral stage in the mirror state which he is synonym for that is the real stage no ah that's a good point no no no I'm clar- I want to clarify one point about that and that is actually in physics it's true there are only surfaces Richard Feynman Nobel prize for electrodynamics yeah he used to bring a brick in to his students and he'd say okay these are the surfaces of the brick show me inside the brick and then he'd smash it with a hammer and he'd say okay what's inside the brick and now he had two more surfaces so they'd say well we don't know then he'd smash it again and say okay now we have a hundred surfaces and there'd be nothing but white rubble and they'd say okay now we have millions of surfaces there's nothing but surface in this brick there's nothing in it so the whole idea that the surface is not real and that we have to go inside for finding find it is actually physically not true it's fifty-fifty but what I would have said is two thing what I already said is that nonetheless isn't it that in a way the moment you are at the level of life it is true you know what I mean like it's counter-intuitive to say I will again have to be tasteless okay I'll be tasteless against myself that okay this is surface but then you cut in and it's another surface it's not simply another surface there is there is the skin is effectively a surface in a way you cannot say you know that when you which is why my ultimate dream that I like is this idea to treat skin as another dress for example I am still shocked I remember when I was a young boy I remember a wonderful cartoon a little bit anti-feminist where a woman after a party washes herself and goes to the toilet and puts with a cream and soap off first all the maquillage lips and then she goes on washing her face and puts off the eyes the nose and so on so after finishing the wash nothing is there just a kind of a I mean you know what I I again I think that here but I go a step further I agree that the notion of depth is purely a how should I put it there are only surfaces but there is an irreducible depth effect and this is what Lacan's point is you must know it that wonderful old story that Lacan uses again and again when Lacan tries to explain why only you why what is the difference between humans and animals what humans maybe it's wrong I spoke with some biologists maybe who study animal behavior they were ambiguous half of them okay it doesn't matter it's just the logic you know that famous sorry if I repeat myself you must know it it is the classical one Zeuxis and Parrhasius between the two painters ancient and they compete who will do a better painting first one of them I always forget which one paints paints a painting of grapes it's so realistic that when the birds see it they hit it to eat the grapes then the other one invites him to his room and the painter sees a curtain and asks him okay show me what is behind the curtain what did you paint and he said nothing I just painted the curtain no and he wins that is to say that the true illusion is not what is behind the curtain the true illusion is to organize the surface in such a way that it generates the appearance that there is something behind the curtain how should I put it that all there is are appearances all there is are inconsistencies so what does this mean now just to conclude then you get your fucking break yes question concerning the real yeah in the in the Silence of the Lambs movie yeah there was the skinning is all the time is behind ah yeah because like yeah yeah yeah so I'm trying to see how do you where do you think that the power of the real gets its strength gets from where does the real get its own strength like where does the mask become you know a frightening thing I mean how it's if you ask me yeah I see your point it's a good question maybe I again I don't like to bluff more than necessary I don't think I have a proper answer now what I would have said it's a what I would have said is that a the point is yes I agree with you and this is linked to the remark you made before no Lacan started with this depreciation of appearance as imaginary and so on and so on I think it's crucial in how only in later Lacan starting from the seminar the the real is no longer this hard real this pseudo-Nietzschean real you know this idea of real is too traumatic too painful so we need screens we need masks to no that the real is this spectral force of appearance as such now my answer would have been it's a very abstract one I know it will not convince you but all kind all I can do now is just to give you a general direction my answer would have been the way Lacan treats fantasy that is to say how does the mask relate to to its location if a mask masks some symbolic or whatever other content it's still imaginary if the mask is a mask of nothing it's real you know which I give you a simple example but maybe it will work which I often use to show this power of real as death drive and so on that's real you remember did you see David Lynch Mulholland Drive you remember that nice scene when they are in some shitty jazz whatever club where an actress is singer is singing on stage she collapses the singing goes on this is the moment of the real where as it were it's almost like you know Cheshire cat in Alice in Wonderland when the partial object the full the smile survives
insists so here ah there is even a better scene that you find along the same lines I really love it it's maybe the best in that underestimated masterpiece
by Sergio Leone his last film Once Upon a Time in America you remember at the beginning the phone is ringing endlessly and then you get a whole flashback minutes then the guy hand picks up the phone but the ringing goes on now of course this is not a magic movie that is to say both in Lynch and here in Sergio Leone you immediately afterwards get a rational explanation in Sergio Leone in David Lynch is of course that it was a playback in Sergio Leone is simply that the scene we saw somebody picking up the phone was still within the hallucination that it wasn't the real phone and so on but what I'm saying is that this magical moment when some appearance haunts you but appearance beneath which there is nothing I think this is maybe the most horrible experience the experience when appearance is deprived of its substance this is death drive let me give you another example to make it clear are you just scratching or you have a question okay then I just finish this sorry you know usually we say images are just appearances and there is a substance behind this is how for example Schopenhauer interpreted the power of music that why is music more forceful than other arts his idea was other arts work work like poetry painting work through representations images but music in its rhythm directly renders what Schopenhauer calls the will the life force and you can get this excess in a romantic way did you see for example Chaplin's masterpiece I think City Lights you remember at the end when the girl recognized him you have this Puccini-like kitschy triumphant music and then you have the end but the music goes on it's as if you have this excess over the images of pure life force but that's would be life drive but then the example I usually quote maybe you know it it's it really traumatized me when I saw it it really worked some Balanchine you know the ballet guy took some piece of Webern Anton Webern you know what's the problem with Webern you have his complete works on three CDs no like Webern's longest piece is minutes or something like that no so of course how did Balanchine do it you have dancers dancing on music then music stops they continue to dance I mean the effect was terrifying as if the living dead you know it's as if precisely they are before you took the appearance as representation of the will life force whatever but then this death drive force of appearances for me precisely when you subtract the life substance but but the appearance goes on but let me just conclude because then after the break we will go into another line if you allow me just I just want now to overrun another criticism that you may have which is that is then my result this kind of extremely boring postmodern stupidity that you know we just play roles there are just appearances there is no authenticity but before I do this sorry you can have a question please oh I just wanted to add to the not only the sort of this mask with nothing behind it but the appearance of maybe there being something behind it like last night when
you mentioned the square root of negative one as something linked to the real it also Lacan you know calls the phallus so in terms of like where this sort of hauntingness comes from yeah there's a hauntingness of the mask with nothing behind it but even in things like the mask the mask that it like twists and kind of like distorts his face that weird distortion that holy shit there is something behind it and there shouldn't be that's also the power and the fear yeah no no no I agree with you yes this I mean one should don't have time now to go this in detail just again I want to make then point clearly why the I think maybe you know it but I cannot restrain repeating it a wonderful movie example of how we
can nonetheless gain authenticity but the notion of authenticity that emerges here is not this actor's studio authenticity you know like this is why I hate Marlon Brando and those guys like as if you know tear down the masks act out your true impulses but what if we define authenticity as a kind of a tragic full identification with the mask itself I'm talking here maybe you know it about a really nice film by Roberto Rossellini maybe you know it I think it's available now but difficult to get from General Della Rovere it's a story about takes place in in the North occupied Italy about a small time crook who whose who is physically very similar to a big resistance leader so the Germans had that leader arrested but he died in prison so the Germans made a plan they arrest this small crook and offer him a deal the resistance that's crucial to know doesn't yet know that General Della Rovere the big hero is dead so they tell him we will dress you like General Della Rovere and we will put you in prison we will put you into prison to mingle with other prisoners as General Della Rovere because they will think you are the big resistance hero they will confide you about you know resistance activity so you will tell us what you learn then you can go to Switzerland with money or whatever the guy accepts it but then identifies with the role he plays the role to the end he is shot as General Della Rovere and so on that's for me a very nice example of the authenticity of the mask itself you play through the act I I prefer much this much more as a model of authenticity the full identification with the mask than this idea of tearing down the mask I already as I mentioned to you at the first or the second day I think this idea of tearing down the mask is always the worst of ideology you know this cheap wisdom of yeah we are not only our ideological roles we are humans and so on yes there's another great example from Jorge Luis Borges in his which one I will plagiarize him
the movie version
is called Spider's Stratagem by Bertolucci ah and the short story is called Theme of the Traitor and Hero in the short story set in Ireland in which this son comes back to town where his father is a mythical hero yeah and then he discovers in fact that his father was not a hero but he betrayed the cause and the partisans or or the the the insurrectionists took him as a as a traitor and shot him but but they organized it to look like he was acting for the cause so the traitor becomes a hero yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and he also assumes it yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and in the and in the Italian version in the movie the young man visits the hometown where a set of fascists basically like you get the idea and then he discovers that everybody is in on the play uh-huh he's the only one that doesn't know oh my God I want then thank you very much give me your names so that then I can put you know how we we do it I love this absolute hypocrisy that when I will be honest I will put a footnote but you know a small footnote at the end of the book I owe this idea to you you know how you can play even a nastier game that so that you you say after writing this book I discovered that a good friend of mine had a similar idea and so on you have all these strategies of cheating and so on you know where I was the nastiest but she was mad at me with Joan Copjec I took an idea from her so in the first version I put a footnote you know you have this phrase typical where you say I borrow this idea from blah blah but of course it's his idea but all if there are any mistakes misdevelopments they are my fault I just turned it around I said I took this idea from Joan Copjec but I developed it so it's mine but if anything is wrong then fuck it it's her idea and so on unfortunately she disappointed me she had some problems how she put it she didn't she wanted to be celebrated okay but you know what there are yes speaking Bertolucci I totally agree with you I think the early Bertoluccis are his true masterpieces this one and then of course Prima della rivoluzione (Before the Revolution) and so on I think his 19th this 20th century Novecento is so-so after that starting with that Vigil Kleiberg La Luna incest story it goes down then movies like The Little Buddha they're stuff for Gulag how she put it to be okay let's do it now and then we go on you want something stupid okay yeah okay now okay we will not be able to go through the entire line but I will try to give you an idea of what Hegel calls reflexivity how this function in contrast what I announced already at the beginning in contrast to what is usually referred to as this post-Hegelian anti-philosophy this idea that we should break out of the closed circle
of philosophical idealist representation into some kind of real life foundation my thesis will be in I will take as my example a short story by Italo
Calvino which I want to give a twist to it kind
of a Stalinist twist making it Hegelian it's a just to give you first an idea of this reflexivity between inside outside the story is told maybe you know it it's one of this in one of these well-known volumes A King Listens it focuses on the sense of hearing in an anonymous kingdom the royal palace becomes
a giant ear and the king obsessed and paralyzed by fears of rebellion tries to hear every fragile sound that reverberates in his palace footsteps of the servants whispers conversations from far trumpets at the raising of the flag ceremonies sounds of the city at the outskirts of the palace riots rumble of the rifles and so on and so on the king cannot see the source of all these sounds but is obsessed by interpreting their meaning and the destiny they are predicting this interpretive paranoia only seems to so again that's how the king lives kind of you know sounds everywhere my God totally paranoid what do they mean and so on and so on is it a plot against me or whatever interpreting all of this then something happens which puts a stop to this interpretive paranoia and completely enchants the king through the window the wind brings in a singing voice of a woman a voice of pure beauty unique irreplaceable for the king it is the sound of freedom he steps out of the palace into the open space and mingles there with the crowd now again the first thing you should bear in mind here is that this king is not the traditional monarch but a modern totalitarian tyrant a traditional king doesn't care about his environment he arrogantly ignores it he leaves the worry to prevent plots to his ministers it is the modern leader who is obsessed by plots to rule is to interpret is a perfect formula for Stalinism which was the system of endless paranoia hermeneutics so when the king is seduced by the pure feminine voice of immediate life pleasure this is obviously although unfortunately not for Calvino himself a fantasy precisely the fantasy of breaking out of the closed circle of representations of rejoining the pure outside of the innocent presence of the feminine voice which is a kind of an excess in excess of the self-mirroring prison house of representations this voice needs no interpretation it only gives body to the voice which enjoys as it were its own exercise but this is again if I got it correctly how Calvino himself proposes the story it's another variation on this old Susan Sontag motive of against interpretation that this vicious circle of interpretation it's a kind of a closure prison of language of our existence that the act of life is to break out of this into the fresh air of immediate presence but I think that I will simply try now to of course I disagree with this I don't I think this is a metaphysical myth so how should we rewrite the story if you know my evil Stalinist mind you will already have guessed it how should we rewrite the story to make it the way I want to have it what is missing here is the way this innocent externality of the voice is itself already marked inscribed into the mirror of interpretive representation what we should do is this I think this is how I would have added another just one paragraph to the story when the king exits the palace following the voice he is immediately arrested the feminine voice was an instrument of the plotters to lure him out of the safety of the guarded palace and so on and so on I would like to the precisely you know this point of externality he clings to he falls into the trap that's the true plot the true plot is not all the rumors and so on the true intelligent plot is precisely to give you a way out which brings us if I may indulge in another ideological reflection maybe you know this line but I like it nonetheless which brings us to how we should interpret this in critique of ideology this how should I call it reference to the obscenity of the sounds themselves the obscene materiality of language voice of symbolic texture maybe you know the story but now I would like to repeat it something happened some you know I come from Slovenia which is south of Austria in south of Austria bordering Slovenia there is a province called Kärnten Carinthia they had the glorious leader Jörg Haider you know the well-known proto-fascist populist his card which he played again and again in politics was that which is totally ridiculous that we Slovenes pose a threat to Carinthia that we want to occupy it so his big political motto was Kärnten bleibt deutsch Carinthia we
or should remain German Kärnten bleibt deutsch how did some friends of mine not of mine I met them later leftists counter-attack not as you would have expected with a complex interpretation they didn't point out how he evokes I
don't know all this usual boring Marxist stuff he evokes imaginary fears to and so on no to cover up some contradictions whatever no they did something extremely simple and efficient they bought space half a page in daily newspapers and they just started I mean printed first this well-known phrase Kärnten bleibt deutsch Carinthia must remain or will remain German Kärnten bleibt deutsch and then they just supplemented it with a series of
totally meaningless obscene variation the whole ad read like this Kärnten bleibt deutsch Kärnten bleibt bleutsch Kärnten bleibt bleutsch and so on so all of a sudden it was just kind of an effect of disgusting obscenity this is also one of the mechanisms that we shouldn't underestimate for example when you maybe do you know the German whatever you call it industrial hard rock punk band Rammstein I like them I think they are very good in I think they are basically doing the same I think that when they you know some people liberals who worry are have this divided attitude towards them they say yes we know that they are ironic towards because you know their spectacle is a kind of an imitation of this hard totalitarian rituals all that stuff the usual story is yes they we know it's ironic undermining but what if there are some young people who will too directly identify with this and effectively become neo-Nazi and so on and so on but I claim this totally misreads what they are effectively doing they are not simply repeating the Nazi strategy they are reducing it to this kind of signifying nonsense they are doing to the Nazi formulas they are doing this obscene Kärnten bleibt bleutsch bleutsch bleutsch or whatever so that simply by suspending sense you become aware of the materiality signifying materiality in all its obscenity as it were I think it is very effective much more maybe than direct critique of ideology so again I totally reject those who see this danger of oh if you imitate totalitarian rituals you play with fire it all depends on on how you imitate them they're basically I claim doing the same as we already mentioned this basically doing the same as what Chaplin doing
in his Great Dictator no when the Hinkel Figler has this
incomprehensible
disgusting language which is German but not German and so on and so on I think that so so and this even makes even a more general point similar to the point I was making yesterday about the the third wave experiment I can give you another example along these lines even more horrifying did you saw did you see the movie or I don't know if it's also in the in the theater play musical Cabaret Liza Minnelli blah blah okay do you remember
that allegedly
deep
moment when the two three of them are in the countryside and stop in a in then that young boy starts to sing the song a bird blah blah and then awake tomorrow tomorrow belongs to me and so on now if you want to test if your friends are serious intellectuals or hard intellectual idiots observe their reaction to this if as the majority of my friends did if they say oh now I understand the appeal of fascism no they're idiots I think the movie is deeply cheating there it is part of what again I agree here with Badiou who is also deeply suspicious of this notion again it's Susan Sontag it's here at least the bad girl for me who in her essay of Leni Riefenstahl she tries to prove that already that it's not only her Nazi period but that if you go to early and late works of Leni Riefenstahl that she was always fascinated by motives which you can designate as some kind of proto-fascist for example her so-called Bergfilme mountain films from the 20s you know this heroic sacrificial struggling top of the mountains and so on the masterpiece is Das blaue Licht (The Blue Light) from I think which attracted Hitler's attention that's how Hitler invited her to do the to do Triumph of the Will and then you know that after World War II she celebrated in her photo album some of the black tribe in in Kenya I think today's Kenya the idea was that again she was fascinated by this masculine strength beauty and then at the end you know what she was doing in her final years going it's incredible when she was yeah yeah yeah going deep into the sea diving when she was even but the idea is that there is a continuous line I totally oppose this of course she was a disgusting opportunist and so on but I claim you should not con- you should not confuse fascism with what we usually dismiss as proto-fascist motives many things are simply not in themselves fascist that was my point yesterday for example it's fashionable for liberals today to say whenever they see a mass discipline mass parade crowd walking in discipline ooh-ooh proto-fascism sorry why as we all know I hope you know Hitler took this from Social Democrats Social Democrats started to do it now a liberal answer here would have been of course because the whole spirit of the age was already totalitarian no I claim it is crucial to drop here I agree with Badiou this idea of proto-fascism in the sense of it's not yet fascism but the elements are there the elements are there but this here I buy this kind of deconstructionist notion or rather Althusserian of ideology as articulation what makes fascism fascism are not all these elements okay some of them are more fascist I'm not saying you can articulate antisemitism in a different progressive way I think that antisemitism or at least antisemitic logic is an absolute sign in the sense of in the sense of you cannot play the game of we can have a progressive movement and just to make things move at the beginning use a little bit to mobilize people of antisemitism I think that antisemitism is an absolute symptomatic sign that something is wrong if it's a left antisemitism it's wrong with the leftist project itself as it is here for example in the Soviet Union we precisely can locate the moment when the Soviet ideology took this latent antisemitic turn it was precisely with the full ascension of power to Stalin where as you probably know that whole ideological legitimacy changed all of a sudden family was reasserted as the central divorce abortion were impossible everything so what I so again back to Leni Riefenstahl you see one should not concede to the enemy too much in the sense of I'm tempted to say almost percent of Nazi values we should take them over there is nothing inherently Nazi in the notion for example of social solidarity no this can mean this and that the problem is when you define social solidarity in racial terms as against the threat of the Jewish intruder that's only what makes it not in itself the notion of discipline sacrifice for community I hate liberals who the moment you mention sacrifice struggle ooh-ooh proto-fascism no why sorry why and again we can go we should go here to the end I don't think there is anything already proto-fascist in Leni Riefenstahl's those mountain movies and maybe I mentioned this to you sorry if I repeat myself I know that I mentioned this in some group but not here I think there is even a material proof an element which puts down her most famous mountain film Das blaue Licht (The Blue Light) about a small city in mountains then a mysterious girl living up there who is the outcast I know some of my Jewish friends even tried to read this movie as a kind of a portrait of antisemitism because the girl then the the citizens the inhabitants of the village try to lynch her and so on but more important a simple data you know who was the main author of the scenario for this movie the great cinema theorist Bela Balazs who was a Jew and a communist and was at that time the lover of Leni Riefenstahl so you know what matters is this how should I put it contingency of history you should always remember ideology how should I put it here I agree with my now enemy once we were friends Ernesto Laclau who emphasized in a very nice deconstructionist way this logic of ideology as articulation in the sense that ideological space is a space of as it were free-floating motives elements and then each element has a differential value in the sense that it can be exchanged with other elements that no element almost exceptions antisemitism but even here Ernesto is too crazy he doesn't agree with me he believes in progressive antisemitism and so on for example you can give very simple examples let's take ecology ecology is in itself neutral neutral in the sense that you can have a socialist ecology claiming the root of it is capitalist exploitation only a centralized state control can blah blah you can have a conservative ecology claiming things went bad with industrial revolution before we should return to whatever you can have I don't know anti-centrist anarchist ecology you know this idea let's return to small self-sustaining communities and so on you can even have an entwinement for example of ecology with feminism claiming that the the brutal exploitation of nature was always somehow linked to the subordinate role of women you can have capitalist ecology it has its reason claiming that and there is an element of truth in it that if you look at historical record if anything the so-called socialist states their record about ecology is much worse the true ecological catastrophes are in Soviet Union probably in China and so on and you can also say that at least I have nothing against this up to a certain point market does work I just think it doesn't work all the way you know this idea of including ecological market as the so-called I think the economic term is externality into the price and so on and so on so what I'm saying you see the idea is that this is how ideological space works every element is potentially free-floating it doesn't have a full identity it's a kind of a open for all others or even feminism you can have a anti-capitalist feminism claiming you know feminism is this you can have this that kind of I mean all elements you take can be entwined in this different ways so the idea is then that to analyze an ideology it's not enough to reduce it to elements and to say oh-oh-oh we have these elements discipline sacrifice and so on oh-oh-oh proto-fascism no there is no proto-fascism fascism is or it's not fascism is a certain articulation which means when you fascism is the structural principle on of the chain itself as it were when you entwine the whole series in a certain way for which you need you remember as I said about antisemitism a master signifier sorry yes finish with no no no I prefer to be interrupted now because I run out of steam so okay um um sorry just you know why I'm saying because this is a nice example of that what we were talking before of having a if you interrupt me now I will be able to evoke the false appearance that I still had so many things to say but just to interrupt but there is nothing so to save myself I need you to brutally interrupt my creative thought yes okay um it seems the way you argue that they are really pro free-floating and it's all in the structure of how we present like you said the articulation of other elements in the chain mm-hmm but I think that Rosa Luxemburg yeah precisely on spot when when she says that the thin line between socialism and barbarism it is what the theory does with the central antagonism yeah whether it exposes it or whether it displaces it no I totally agree with you here and that was my big fight with Ernesto Ernesto thinks that it's part of what he calls Marxist fundamentalism essentialism to even talk about a central antagonism he wants this absolute open plurality he claims we have a multitude of struggles for example anti-capitalist struggle only one of the struggles we have racist struggle feminist struggle up and down and he claims that we can build all possible chains of equivalence among them but that there is absolutely no priority for him the priority of any of the struggles is an substantialist essentialism I claim here he regresses from his own previous work if you ask me I think maybe his crucial best book is before Hegemony and Socialist Strategy you remember his book on I think it's Politics and Ideology in Marxist Theory it's an early book it was published by Verso Books in English he doesn't want to reprint it because there in a very nice way he interprets precisely along the lines that you suggested now class struggle not as a direct content but precisely as a formal principle of articulation of elements that you know class and this can be done in a triumphant way in what sense that in a very Hegelian way you should distinguish two levels of class struggle class struggle as the formal principle and class struggle as one of the elements where they can be in contradiction for example Fred Jameson drew my attention to this take the United States politics how often not class struggle let's say class antagonism is over-determined in a totally inverted way for example that was Fred Jameson's nice example do you know that legendary TV debate between Richard Nixon and John Kennedy yeah John Kennedy's whole point was there I am the upper-class guy Nixon acted as lower-class guy and so on and so on and you get then even unfortunately I claim often it happens with US feminism official that sometimes not always I'm well aware of attempts to organize the Spanish working illegal immigrants living in LA area blah blah blah all I'm saying is that often especially when it's connected with this primitive anti-Islamic American politics often you know what lurks in the background is this idea we upper-middle-class women are truly liberated why it's the rednecks the stupid working-class who are the true fundamentalists and so on and so on so what I'm saying is that you can have a class struggle a class position of the let's say bad guys whatever you call it which uses many working-class elements this is the whole point of populism which is why there I also I'm so sad we don't have time to debate this because we went maybe too much in this Hegelian shit this is where I had this ferocious debate with Ernesto Laclau he thinks populism is also neutral not only neutral but even more on the good side as it were I claim no I claim that populism is irreducibly in its very notion as you put it nicely the blurring of the radical antagonism populism always I to refer to you know Ernesto likes to use this nice Lacanian variation of the woman doesn't exist society doesn't exist for populists society does exist that's the basic premise of populism the way populists deal which is why populism can easily be antisemitic for example of course the problem here is political one no Ernesto's horizon is he's the old leftist Peronist there no and he likes Perón unfortunately I claim maybe Perón had some good elements but basically he was a catastrophe for Argentina and Perón you know the basic mechanism of populism is always cut off the corrupted excess and let's get all together on the top of it I claim populism has always an element of as they put it in France le refus de savoir I don't want to know anything about it there is always an element of this willful ignorance like don't bullshit me with complexity tell me simply who the elements are and so on and so on and let me tell you a transcendental experience of mine metaphysical in the sense of like a simple thing maybe you know the story it's wonderful I when this crisis no later even I think maybe did I already mention this where I was sitting by in a TV did I tell no okay okay no it's a wonderful story I will tell you what shocked me and this brings us back to that principle of articulation I was jumping between the two TV programs tired as a dog in a hotel the one of course sorry tell you let's make a test if some of you are from the United States which TV channel do you watch for news Fox fuck they're the only amusing ones I hate those bloodless liberals it's passion there they are I know they are disgusting I'm not crazy but okay as usual I was watching Fox News no but then on TBS I noticed a nice documentary on you know who is Pete Seeger the great leftist folk icon okay and then something shocked on Fox News there was a live transmission of one of these Republican meetings against Obama no all these you know Obama big bad taxes state and so on and there was a kind of a fake folk singer singing an anti-Obama song and then I was jumping between this and Pete Seeger song what extraordinarily shocked me is the resemblance there was a Pete Seeger song saying we ordinary people screwed by the big business and blah blah and I love Pete Seeger then I jump this guy says Washington bureaucracy taking our taxes we poor working people of Texas will pay the price and so on and so on how this this is what I'm aiming at how and this is a very sad tendency in United States how this fundamental populist anti-central power motive is almost totally today reappropriated and changed into the rightist into the rightist chain so again I totally agree with you here I I I think I don't first the second thing that is if you read his book but it's an interesting book although it has a violent attack on me his book The Populist Reason it has very nice moments but I think simply that his purely formal notion of populism is too abstract in what sense he is forced to proclaim communists for populist people like Mao Zedong Yugoslav President Tito and so on which I think is madness in no reasonable sense of politics are they are they populists I think that again populism is precisely a way to appeal to all this reference ordinary hardworking people blah blah but denying the fundamental antagonism and again the problem of Ernesto is that he thinks that this is essentialism and so on my problem with him is another one that if you look at his own work he denies it but don't we get some times more ambiguous I think that
it's
not even true that in his own work all different struggles are really just floating in the same way he and especially with Chantal Mouffe who is also has some interesting reflections here they obviously privilege the so-called democratic revolution
and for them if you look at it closely all or he they even put it directly like this in that Hegemony and Socialist Strategy book that all other struggles are basically for them the extension of democratic struggle as they put
it feminist struggle emerged when people said okay if equality why not also democracy for women then socialism when people said if political equality why not also economic justice and so on and so on so again I agree with you if your point is that sorry and then I have another another problem which is even more fundamental here with Ernesto is that you know I developed this in that triple orgy book where it's was very paradoxical experience that hegemony or no contingency whatever the book of debates between me Judith Butler and Ernesto the paradox was that at the end I stopped being friendly he start he turned against me personally Ernesto with Judith it went okay but already while we were writing it Ernesto got violent first it was a conflict with Judith because he was so brutal and patronizing in some in replying to her you know this type of style and she was fully justified in being furious she asked him to tone it down for example I know she started a paragraph with oh our beloved Judith is here shooting with her standard guns and so on you know this kind of a patronizing attitude but so then he moved to me and things turned a violent violent violent precisely concerning this class struggle and so on I think that the problem of historicity is not solved there in the sense of I make this point but I think and I think it's also a weak point of Judith and this brings us back to Hegel historicity why historicism is not true historicity do you know I hope you do Judith Butler's Gender Trouble okay you know the line do you notice how the book has as it were two axes on the one hand it has a theory of how we are constituted as sexual entities you know all this theory of it's not natural essentialist it's performatively enacted contingent all that stuff on the other hand she tells in the structure of the book a very linear narrative it starts with stupid zero level essentialism when people at some magic zero point thought that our sexual identities are purely natural and then you know Freud already makes one step not radical enough Lacan goes a little bit further not radically enough and to be slightly cynical at the end we learn her lesson how things really are with Ernesto still the best book with him and Chantal co-written Hegemony and Socialist Strategy is the same you have this idea of this pure fluidity contingency of social identity and then he also he also supplements this with a linear narrative it starts with pure essentialism and then you know you have the first breaks Trotsky Bolsheviks this idea of uneven development Gramsci struggle for hegemony but the idea is they still don't go far enough they remain still essentialist they think they can still combine contingency with class struggle Mao all but then finally Ernesto comes and says no contingency is radical the there is no all there is is this totally contingent discursive gains struggle for hegemony is totally open contingent and so on and so on my answer to which I didn't get the question if you don't believe me read the book because I formulated this question I think if not in the first already text of mine in the second is which is precisely the relationship between these two aspects that is to say their basic theory all social identities are discursively constructed in an open contingent process of symbolic articulation and the linear narrative they are telling in other words is their positive theory theory of radically contingent social construction of our discursive construction of our social identities is this just something which holds for our historical moment or is it that it was like this from the very beginning to put it in slightly cynical terms that already already the early Neanderthals were fighting ideological struggles for hegemony and constructing their identity and that it's only today that we see it if this is true then why do we see it only today why is it that Marx or others why is it that in the 19th century they were stupid essentialists and now we see it that is to say what is their theory is it a universal theory or is it a theory of a certain precise historical moment which can be defined as a moment of postmodernity in the sense of when socialism as an alternative collapsed as we all know all that remain was this multiplicity of single issues and then the most you can dream about is a kind of a rainbow coalition not in the specific sense of Jesse Jackson but like a contingent chain of equivalences between multiplicity of struggles which as Ernesto always emphasizes should not be supported by any essential reference to some central struggle but it's totally open contingent struggle for Ernesto there is nothing which naturally links ecological struggle with socialist struggle there is nothing in the nature of ecology which privileges the link with socialism it's totally open contingent struggle so again my problem is what is the status of their own theory global theory contingent construction and so on is it historical or all the time the worst solution would have been a primitive pseudo-Hegelian one that it's true all the time but it's only today in our historical moment that we can see it because we live in an era where our identities are directly experienced as contingent and so on and so on so what I'm saying is that there is a kind of a metahistory which is missing there they don't provide a proper account for the historical status of their own theory and my further point is that this is why they are for me ultimately simply providing the ideology of a certain very limited moment of the leftist struggle in in the time of relative hegemony of the capitalist system where nobody even thinks about global change all you can imagine are these marginal resistances strategic alliances and so on but you wanted to counter-attack or to say something yeah but it's not random that the accusation all three of you throw in the book is that the other is closet Kantian ah yeah yeah yeah that's true yeah but again the whole point is yeah this is an interesting because you know the sympathies are interesting here because how should I put it as Ernesto put it nicely me and Ernesto are for Lacan for the Lacanian real against Judith who thinks Lacanian real is another form of essentialism whatever no I always think that basically she understands real in this simple sense of you know something that really is independently of symbolic contingency whatever on the other hand me and Judith are Hegelians I mean much more sympathetic to Hegel and Ernesto is for Ernesto he has this very boring textbook idea of Hegel as an absolute idealist where everything follows in a conceptual necessity and so on and so on so but but again so you see my reproach to them my basic reproach doesn't concern the truth or not but the social status I mean the historical impact of their own theory my reproach to Judith is that what she is describing is not some historical alternative but simply a purified clean form of what already is today the ruling ideology which is why I claim she had all the time to construct some patriarchal scare which is no longer operative today I simply don't think that today our predominant hegemonic ideological identity ideological address is the call for some kind of patriarchal identity and then we need to subvert it and so on I think on the contrary that today's what she is saying is simply a I mean how should I put it I don't see a subversive act in it I claim that if you say to someone listen your sexuality is not your natural essence you are free to reconstruct it to screw boys girls to do it with eight sorry for the bad taste remarks to reinvent yourself again and again there is no fixed I mean a yuppie would tell you yes thanks that's what I'm doing I mean you see what I mean I don't see the subversive act there okay
sorry
we didn't go further tomorrow I promise you the last reflections on Hegel and so on.