Unexpurgated: Slavoj Zizek
Interview · Larry Charles Projects ·
2024-06-27 · 3:13:30 · 29,289 words
cinema-art-culturehistoryideologyfascism-populismeveryday-lifephilosophy-generalpsychoanalysistechnology-ai-cyberspaceliberalism-political-correctnesssubjectivitycapitalismdemocracysexuality-genderpoliticsgeopolitics-warreligion-theology
Žižek discusses the subversion of stereotypes regarding Palestinian humor, the evolution of Hollywood's 'villain' archetypes, and his own provocative book-signing antics. He analyzes the political aesthetics of Soviet cinema (Shostakovich), contrasting Stalinism and Nazism through their distinct modes of public spectacle and trial. The conversation culminates in a philosophical defense of comedy as a necessary survival mechanism in the face of absolute horror, citing examples from American pop culture, Greek mourning rituals, and the Holocaust. Žižek analyzes the role of comedy and humor in processing trauma, using Srebrenica survivor jokes and films like To Be or Not to Be and Life is Beautiful to argue that comedy can be a more authentic confrontation with horror than sentimental tragedy. He critiques Spielberg’s Oedipal father-reconstruction narrative and praises Philip K. Dick adaptations for their political and structural depth. Finally, he connects the circular, undeath-based temporality of video games and TV series to a contemporary shift in subjectivity, where relationships and history are treated as restartable loops rather than linear tragedies. Žižek argues that centralized public space and a shared canon are necessary to prevent manipulation, contrasting this with the dispersion of modern media. He explores the ambiguous role of political humor, particularly obscene jokes, as a mechanism for social connection and a tool used by regimes to maintain stability. Drawing on anecdotes from ex-Yugoslavia and Eastern Europe, he illustrates how jokes functioned as a safety valve for the state, allowing the regime to persist by channeling frustration into laughter rather than action. Žižek analyzes the function of obscene rituals and 'sincere lies' in maintaining social and ideological solidarity, using anecdotes from his Yugoslav military service and examples from film and contemporary politics. He argues that these rituals are not subversive but constitutive of authority, contrasting 'hysterical' questioning with 'perverse' certainty. The excerpt concludes with a critique of political correctness for killing irony and a discussion of the comic nature of identity in Hitchcock, ending mid-sentence on a reference to Robert Pippin. Žižek analyzes the paradoxical nature of contemporary political power, arguing that right-wing populists and neoliberal tech elites function as the true managers of capitalism, while the left has been depoliticized through moralization and safe political correctness. He critiques the failure of satire to counter figures like Trump, suggesting instead that the left must reclaim a serious, authentic moral stance and address economic realities rather than focusing on cultural tolerance. The excerpt concludes with a psychoanalytic reading of the 'obscene superego' and the fluidification of identity politics. Žižek argues that moral dogmatism is necessary for social stability, using the example of torture and sexual harassment to illustrate how liberal hypocrisy renormalizes Trump. He redefines violence as the force maintaining the status quo (citing Gandhi vs. Hitler) and explores the intersection of comedy, sexuality, and the superego. Through examples from cinema (Lubitsch, Woody Allen, Monty Python) and Soviet jokes, he posits that comedy and politics must be unified through ruthless irony and serious commitment. Žižek discusses his collaboration with Sophie Fiennes on the Pervert's Guide series, contrasting the commercial constraints of his work with his desire for more eccentric projects like a guide to God. He then shifts to a detailed analysis of jokes, particularly from Soviet, Yugoslav, and Eastern European traditions, arguing that vulgarity and racism, when shared among friends, function as a form of politeness and solidarity rather than mere offense. He concludes by critiquing political correctness for stripping jokes of their necessary aggressiveness and obscenity, which he views as essential for genuine human connection and friendship. Žižek analyzes the paradox of trauma and fantasy using the example of rape victims in the Bosnian War, arguing that the violation of intimate, shameful fantasies is more devastating than physical assault. He transitions to the sociology of comedy, discussing the 'canned laughter' of political correctness and the psychoanalytic necessity of the 'foreign gaze' for identity formation. He critiques modern permissivity as a more oppressive form of authority than traditional paternalism, using the 'visit your grandmother' paradox. Finally, he explores the comic nature of theology, citing Talmudic legends and the Book of Job to define himself as a 'Christian atheist,' concluding with anecdotes about media manipulation and the show Curb Your Enthusiasm.
every located moment in this recording, click one to read it
The ideas in it 52
in the order they first come up; click a row for what he does with the idea here
A satirical coinage referring to the post-Janet Jackson broadcast delay, which Žižek ironically frames as 'Stalinist wisdom' or 'people's democracy' because it imposes a bossy constraint on free expression.
as “perverted legacy of Enlightenment”
Žižek's description of Stalinist trials, where even the lowest traitor was forced to use 'universal reason' to confess, treating them as a free human agent rather than an exterminable object as in Nazism.
The structural requirement for comedy where the actor becomes part of the role, allowing for a split that enables self-commentary, distinguishing it from simple acting.
as “canned laughter”
The artificial, pre-recorded laughter in comedy that serves as a guidepost for what is funny; metaphorically applied to political correctness's forced, performative agreement.
as “Hegelian negation of negation”
Used here to describe the structure of 'bad news/good news' jokes, where the second negation (Alzheimer's) cancels out the first (cancer).
Primo Levi's term for the 'living dead' in Auschwitz; Žižek uses it to argue that heroic resistance is impossible in such total degradation, making comedy the only viable response.
as “comedy as confrontation”
The idea that making comedy out of Nazism or trauma is not 'taking it easy' but the proper way to confront the overwhelming reality of evil, defusing its power through laughter.
as “Oedipal story of the bad father becoming good”
A structural critique of Spielberg’s films (Schindler’s List, War of the Worlds, E.T.) where a dysfunctional family is healed by a father figure who transforms from a 'bad' absent/alienated figure into a 'good' savior, which Žižek finds ideologically limiting.
A theory that when both a source novel and its film adaptation are failures, their repetition retroactively produces a 'specter' or ghost of a perfect, unattainable masterpiece that exists only in the gap between them.
as “secondary contradiction”
Used here to describe the conflict between the state (apartheid) and big corporation (capitalist drive) in Blade Runner, which Žižek values as a 'point of genius' for revealing systemic issues.
A Hegelian observation that the cultural 'World Spirit' is currently migrating from film to television series, changing how narratives are consumed (binge-watching) and experienced.
as “circular temporality / comical undeath”
A temporal structure found in video games, cartoons (Tom and Jerry), and hardcore pornography where death is not final but a reset button; life is a series of restarts without true castration or linear tragedy, preventing genuine loss.
A centralized arena where significant events appear, which Žižek argues is necessary to prevent the confusion and manipulation caused by personalized, dispersed media.
The superficial, respectful interaction between different cultures that lacks true connection, which Žižek contrasts with the radical bonding achieved through obscene humor.
as “socially constructive role of jokes”
The paradoxical function of political humor in socialist regimes to stabilize the system by allowing citizens to vent frustration, thereby preventing more dangerous, brutal political activity.
The specific type of humor required of the inner elite (nomenklatura) in dictatorships, involving an ironic distance from official ideology, where taking the ideology seriously was seen as a step toward dissidence.
as “ideology is not just official values”
The concept that ideology includes the subtle rules of how one is expected to violate official norms, and that violating these norms is required for inclusion.
as “obscene solidarity”
The necessary, hidden enjoyment that sustains official authority, revealed through transgressive or obscene rituals rather than open opposition.
The sociological function of transgressing norms together to create community and friendship, as opposed to merely following polite rules.
as “sincere lie”
A social ritual (like 'nice to see you') that is known to be false by both parties but functions to maintain social bonds; the lie is sincere in its commitment to the ritual.
Identity determined entirely from the outside by contingency and language, rather than by an inner tragic fate or essence.
Lacanian distinction where hysteria is subversive (questioning the master's identification) and perversion is the dark side of power (knowing and sustaining the master's position).
The subversive position of questioning why one is identified with a certain role, contrasted with the boring certainty of the pervert.
as “resistance is surrender”
The idea that certain forms of resistance merely play the game of the dominant ideology, reinforcing it rather than escaping it.
The strategic use of silence or non-engagement as a more threatening political act than violent confrontation, illustrated by Yugoslav communists inviting critics to talk rather than arresting them.
A sarcastic label for tech billionaires (Zuckerberg, Bezos, Cook) who claim to provide 'purpose' while running platforms of meaningless activity, representing a new, insidious form of power more frightening than traditional alt-right figures.
The observation that the right-wing in power can now enact genuine welfare measures (e.g., Poland's Kaczyński) while the left is forced into austerity, reversing traditional political alignments.
as “safe sex / consumerist freedom”
The paradox of modern consumerism wanting goods without their negative consequences (beer without alcohol, sausage without fat), extended to 'safe sex' which eliminates true risk and thus true freedom.
as “culturalization of struggle”
The shift from addressing radical economic questions to focusing on cultural issues like tolerance and harassment, which depoliticizes emancipatory movements.
The ironic observation that communist regimes (like China) are often the most efficient at regulating and thriving within global capitalism, whereas social democracy has lost its vision.
The speaker's term for the liberal tendency to silently accept horrific topics (like torture) as debatable, rather than dogmatically rejecting them.
Žižek's critique of postmodern identity politics, where fluid, shifting identities (LGBT+) are treated as a game, ignoring the serious, suffering reality of transgender individuals seeking fixed identity.
as “enjoyment as an obscene duty”
The paradox where the subject feels guilty not for illicit desires, but for failing to enjoy enough; the superego commands enjoyment, making transgression a mandatory obligation.
A psychoanalytic concept describing the modern pressure to enjoy and be obscene as a duty; Trump's vulgarity is not just id-driven but a fulfillment of a twisted superego command to transgress.
Violence aimed at preserving the existing system or status quo (e.g., Hitler's fascism), as opposed to revolutionary violence aimed at undermining it.
A post-coital anxiety where one questions the performance and moral standing of the sexual act, treating it like a production unit review.
as “superegoization of sexuality”
The transformation of sexual desire into a command to perform and prove enjoyment, turning sex into a bureaucratic or pedagogical task.
A gesture that appears to offer something but explicitly denies its substance (e.g., 'coffee without cream' when there is no cream), revealing the true meaning of the offer through its lack.
The Hegelian concept that a negation (like 'coffee without cream') produces a specific, different qualitative result than another negation ('coffee without milk'), despite material sameness.
The idea that political power requires a comic or ironic agency to counteract its own brutality, as proposed by Lenin's control commission.
as “the dialectical synthesis of two deviations”
Žižek uses this Stalinist joke to illustrate how truth often lies in a pragmatic compromise between two ideological extremes (right-wing and left-wing deviations).
as “nationalism as freedom”
The perception among some Eastern Europeans that nationalism offers true freedom from the tightly regulated, censorious norms of Western liberal society, allowing for violent transgression.
as “vulgarity as politeness”
The paradoxical idea that sharing vulgar, taboo, or racist jokes among close friends is an act of extreme politeness and solidarity, establishing a bond that polite language cannot.
The strategic use of shocking or obscene humor to distract someone from despair or breakdown, serving a therapeutic or 'pedagogical' function.
The argument that by removing the 'brutal irony' and 'aggressiveness' from jokes, political correctness effectively kills the essence of humor, which requires the pretense of hurt.
Žižek's observation that extreme repression (like Taliban dress codes) can be inherently fetishistic and erotic, drawing a parallel to the obsessive control of political correctness.
The brutal imposition from the outside of one's most intimate, shameful, or passive dreams/fantasies, which ruins the subject's internal psychic structure more than physical pain.
as “ego ideal vs. ideal ego”
Lacan's distinction: the ideal ego is the ideal image of oneself, while the ego ideal is the ideal point from which one wants to see oneself (the gaze of the Other).
Authority that does not simply forbid but creates a 'niche' or 'shade' where the subject can secretly enjoy or transgress, thus soliciting desire rather than just suppressing it.
as “over-regulated permissivity”
The paradox of modern permissive society where the freedom to choose is so heavily mandated that it becomes a rigid, oppressive injunction (e.g., 'you must freely choose to visit your grandmother').
A form of comedy where God himself is depicted as fallible, stupid, or even 'screwing up' creation, contrasting with Dante's ordered cosmos; found in Talmudic legends and the Book of Job.
as “Christian atheist”
Žižek's self-definition: one who accepts the theological structure of Christianity (the death of God, the absurdity of creation) but rejects the transcendent God, finding the 'atheist' lesson in the Book of Job and Talmudic comedy.
Stories he reaches for 19
Native Americans prefer the term 'Indians' over 'Native Americans' because 'Indian' is a monument to white man's stupidity, whereas 'Native' implies a patronizing, holistic connection to nature that they reject as modern people.
“They say at least our name is a monument to white man's stupidity... Native is nature and they told me what we are Native Americans.”
Žižek contrasts Hitler, who accepts applause, with Stalin, who stands up and joins the applause, using this to highlight the performative, self-referential nature of Stalinist power.
“A Stalinist leader always stands up and joins the applause.”
Prisoners in the Gulag were forced to sign birthday telegrams to Stalin, a meaningless ritual that highlights the absurdity and specific structure of Stalinist terror compared to Nazism.
“every year on Stalin's birthday they gathered all the prisoners and they had to sign a telegram wishing all the best to Stalin.”
In a Politburo debate, Stalin resolves the conflict between those who want money and those who don't by declaring: 'some people will have money and some people will not,' presenting a cynical 'dialectical synthesis' as common sense.
“Stalin says: you can guess what, very simple: some people will have money and some people will not.”
A father tells his child to 'freely choose' to visit his grandmother. The 'free choice' is a tough injunction, illustrating how permissivity is more oppressive than direct orders because it demands internal compliance.
“What father is telling you is not only go and visit your grandmother but you must freely choose to go.”
Žižek argues that modern racism discourse has been 'culturalized' into a matter of 'tolerance' rather than economics. He notes that MLK never spoke of wanting to be 'tolerated,' but rather demanded economic justice, showing how the left has abandoned radical economic questions for cultural ones.
“Download Martin Luther King's writing and speeches. He never talks about tolerance and so on. It would be ridiculous for him to say what we blacks want to be more tolerated”
A joke from the Srebrenica massacre where survivors frame their survival as 'sabotage' by the KGB/enemies, illustrating how humor allows survival in traumatic contexts.
“you are not a Stalinist, enemies set this to ruin our. is sabotage.”
Žižek describes the 'comedy' of prisoners pinching their lips to look healthy during Nazi selection, arguing that this desperate, absurd performance is a form of survival comedy in the face of horror.
“there is a, you know, a comedy in how prisoners just before running, they were exchanging these desperate advices”
Žižek confesses his father was 'permissive,' asking if he had a girl and offering to show him how to do it. Žižek found this obscene and oppressive, ruining his life, illustrating that too much permissivity destroys the necessary distance of authority.
“I find this so obscene, so indecent oppressive, it ruined my life for two three years.”
Žižek argues Benigni’s film fails because it shifts from comedy to sentimental melodrama at the end. He proposes an alternative ending where the son reveals he knew it was a camp all along but played along to protect his father, creating a more poignant, authentic comic tragedy.
“At the very end when the hero Benigni is to be shot, his son somehow lets him know that he knew it all the time but played the same game for him.”
Žižek cites Palestinian humor, specifically 'Jesus Christ jokes' and a vulgar joke about a husband and wife in Ramallah, to argue that Palestinians are civilized and not just religious fanatics.
“I heard there the best, not even so vulgar, Jesus Christ jokes. I think I told you on the phone those two that I quote.”
The myth of the secret police department that fabricated anti-regime jokes to vent public frustration and prevent actual political uprising, a story found across Eastern Bloc countries.
“That there was an ultra-secret department of secret police where they were fabricating political jokes not against the enemy, anti-imperialist, against the regime... If you feed them with the right jokes they will feel oh but we did strike back and so on, and there will be a lot less of more dangerous, brutal... activity.”
Primo Levi dreamed he survived and told his family about the war, but they fell asleep. He woke up in horror, preferring the reality of Auschwitz to the boredom of his survivors, illustrating the trauma of being unable to transmit the Real.
“He preferred to awaken into the reality of Auschwitz rather than to do that.”
Žižek describes sitting with Jewish friends in Jerusalem who, despite having relatives killed in the Holocaust, enthusiastically debate how Hitler could have won by helping Mussolini take Egypt and attacking Russia later, revealing a dark, obsessive engagement with Nazi history through 'what if' scenarios.
“We all found ourselves in a situation of arguing for Hitler, idiot, why didn't he do this, why didn't he do this”
Žižek lists pre-war Yugoslav stereotypes: Slovenes as misers, Bosnians as sex-obsessed, Macedonians as thieves, Montenegrins as lazy. He argues these racist jokes functioned as a 'tool of solidarity' that disappeared when real nationalism erupted.
“each nation was identified with a certain racist cliche feature... Slovenes were supposed to be misers... Bosnians are supposed to be sex obsessed... Macedonians are supposed to be thieves... Montenegro people are supposed to be extremely lazy.”
Žižek contrasts two types of rape victims: an assertive woman who is physically hurt but not psychologically shattered, and a woman who secretly fantasized about passive victimization, for whom the rape is the 'greatest violence' because it brutally enacts her shameful inner dream.
“There is almost nothing more violent than to have your most intimate dreams... brutally imposed on you from outside.”
An anecdote about a state provocateur at a dissident gathering who used obscenities to disrupt a prisoner's tragic testimony, illustrating how humor can be weaponized to undermine political performance.
“We were at the dissident gathering where some dissident who was imprisoned reported in a very tragic voice of his fate. And then a guy of whom we discovered later that he was a state provocateur... through this pure obscenities he tried to ruin the performance.”
Anthropologists visit a tribe and are told of a terrifying death dance. The tribe invents the dance overnight to please the guests. Years later, another group learns there was no dance, only hospitality, illustrating how traditions are often performances for the observer.
“They were simply good hosts... They somehow understood that the white people want to see some terrifying dance.”
Parents leave kids alone with rules (stay in the living room); the party explodes, the house burns. The father returns, not just angry, but appreciative of the son's 'ability' to throw such a party, showing how authority solicits desire.
“I must confess you something I never would have thought you are able to do this. Like appreciation.”
Works invoked 50
Capital book
Referenced as a required text for young communists, cited by the General Secretary in Žižek's anecdote.
Ninotchka film
Cited for the 'Hegelian joke' about coffee with/without cream, illustrating determinate negation.
Communist Manifesto book
Referenced as a required text for young communists, cited by the General Secretary in Žižek's anecdote.
The Book of Job book
Read as the 'first form of atheism' and 'divine comedy,' where God is a 'barbarian' who created a mess.
Brassed Off film
Cited for a scene involving an 'empty gesture' (coffee without cream) that reveals the true meaning of a sexual invitation.
Žižek acknowledges the movie looks great and was produced by Channel Four, despite not earning much in theaters.
If This Is a Man book
Primo Levi's memoir, cited for scenes that portray horror through a comedic, desperate lens (e.g., the selection process).
To Be or Not to Be film
Praised for its immediate, effective use of Nazi humor to confront evil, featuring Jack Benny’s witty retort.
Billy Bathgate film
Used to illustrate the theory that both the novel and film are failures, but their repetition produces a 'specter of a truly great work.'
Life is Beautiful film
Critiqued for shifting from comedy to sentimental tragedy; Žižek proposes a more authentic, comical ending where the son reveals he knew the truth.
North by Northwest film
Used to illustrate 'comic identification' and how identity is determined from the outside by contingency.
Schindler's List film
Critiqued for its 'Oedipal story' of a bad father becoming good, which ruins the film for Žižek despite being 'nicely made.'
Trouble in Paradise film
One of Žižek's top choices for the 'perfect comedy movie'.
Žižek's own film, where he uses the 'Red Ink' joke at the beginning.
Annie Hall film
Cited for its depiction of 'Stalinist self-criticism' after sex.
Arrival film
Praised by Denis Villeneuve as a 'modest hit' that goes in a 'very refined way' regarding circularity and time.
Blade Runner film
Praised for its 'Marxist terms' secondary contradiction between state and corporation, and Jared Leto’s character as capitalist drive.
War of the Worlds film
Critiqued for featuring Tom Cruise as a 'bad father' who saves his children, fitting the repetitive Oedipal pattern.
Project X film
Used to illustrate 'authentic paternal authority' where the father appreciates the son's transgression, soliciting desire.
Juliette book
A work by Marquis de Sade, cited by Lacan as an example of 'comical undeath' where the heroine is tortured but reappears beautiful.
Nixon (film) film
Oliver Stone's film which 'half rehabilitates' Nixon, showing him as a 'social-oriented welfare president' and the 'last tragic president.'
Used as an example of 'comical undeath' and 'circular temporality' where characters are destroyed but reappear unchanged.
Mentioned in the context of payment structures (flat fee vs. residuals) for actors.
Gulag: A History book
Anne Applebaum's book, cited as the source for the anecdote about prisoners signing Stalin's birthday telegrams.
Used as a model of comedy with serious moral commitment, contrasting with the view that it is merely conformist.
Praised (specifically the Philip Kaufman version with Donald Sutherland) for its political depth and 'sleazy sounds' of alien production.
Borat film
Cited as an example of 'immersive acting' where Sacha Baron Cohen stays in character despite legal troubles.
Facebook other
Described as 'the most expanded without any purpose activity in the world,' yet its creator claims to provide 'purpose in life.'
Cited for the 'sexual education' episode, where the teacher commands arousal, illustrating the superego.
Seinfeld tv
Cited for the 'Soup Nazi' episode and Larry David's persona, which Žižek identifies with as a form of authoritarian relief.
The Thin Blue Line film
Cited for the quote about prosecutors, which Žižek applies to journalists/interviewers who manipulate his words.
Wind River film
Used as an example of 'sincere lie' and empty ritual, where the white man participates in the Native American's mourning knowing it is 'shit' but finding beauty in the ritual.
Enjoy Your Symptom! book
Žižek’s own book where he includes an analysis of Rossellini, which he admits was written before he saw the films.
The Joke book
Cited as Kundera's best work, used to illustrate the comical twist of despair and the refusal to go to the end of tragedy.
Jokester book
A short story by Isaac Asimov, cited by Žižek to illustrate the idea that the creation of humans was an act of telling a joke.
Analyzed for its political opportunism and how Shostakovich manipulated the story to fit the Soviet political moment of dekulakization.
Olympia film
Leni Riefenstahl's film, used as a comparison for the editing effort Sophie Fiennes put into the Pervert's Guides.
The Producers film
Žižek admits he hasn't seen it but implies it's a mistake to rely on second-hand knowledge; he uses it to discuss his own method of analyzing films he hasn't seen.
Bedtime for Bonzo film
Mentioned as a film starring Reagan with a chimp, which dismissed him as a 'comical buffoon' before his presidency, similar to how Trump is treated.
Cited for a Slovene mistranslation ('surgeons on strike') that opened a new comic domain.
Mentioned as an unfinished, unreleased Jerry Lewis movie about the Holocaust.
The Dictator film
Mentioned in the context of Sacha Baron Cohen's career struggles in the US after this film.
E.T. film
Critiqued for its 'Oedipal story' where E.T. acts as a matchmaker to reconstruct a fatherless family, healing the 'bad father' figure.
Cited for its 'Stalinist production unit' depiction of sex, illustrating the superegoization of sexuality.
The Persians play
Used to illustrate how national identity is built through the 'foreign gaze' (Greeks defined by Persian court).
The project they settled on, which Žižek calls 'extremely boring' and 'generic' compared to his desired 'Pervert's Guide to God'.
Pervert's Guide to God other
A proposed but rejected project that Žižek considers a 'great idea' which was deemed 'not commercial enough'.
Described as a 'very modest' idea that was rejected for being 'not commercial enough' compared to the 21st Century guide.
Seven Beauties film
Cited as a film where comedy is the only viable response to the horror of Auschwitz, featuring a prisoner seducing a Kapo.
Thérèse Raquin book
Zola's novel cited as an example of a 'pure evil' monster woman, contrasting with Shostakovich's heroine.
People invoked 84
Franz Kafka positive
Cited regarding the 'Kafkaesque specific sensitivity' of Middle Europe, which combined with communism to produce excellent political jokes.
Janet Jackson positive
Her 'breast scandal' is used to illustrate the adoption of 'Stalinist' broadcast delays in American media.
Peter Sellers positive
Cited as a 'super talented' English comedian who caught the American fancy but couldn't sustain it.
Philip K. Dick positive
Described as a 'big fan'; Žižek values Dick’s alternate histories and the political depth of adaptations like Invasion of the Body Snatchers and Blade Runner.
Primo Levi positive
Cited for his description of Auschwitz (Muselmänner) and specific scenes in 'If This Is a Man' that function as comedy.
Richard Nixon positive
Rehabilitated by Oliver Stone's film; Žižek argues he was the 'most social-oriented welfare president' and the 'last tragic president' before Reagan's 'Teflon presidency.'
Ricky Gervais positive
Cited as a 'super talented' English comedian who caught the American fancy but couldn't sustain it.
Roberto Benigni negative
Critiqued for Life is Beautiful; Žižek argues the film’s shift to sentimental tragedy at the end is a weakness compared to a more authentic comic resolution.
Former Serbian leader under whom Žižek visited Serbia and encountered nationalists who viewed nationalism as 'freedom' from Western regulation.
Sophie Fiennes positive
Žižek praises her as the 'true hard worker' who edits his 'babbling' into order, comparing her dedication to Leni Riefenstahl.
Udi Aloni positive
A friend and comedian known to Žižek, cited as a source for information about Palestinian humor.
Mentioned as the Israeli Prime Minister whose cabinet included Udi Aloni's mother, the Minister of Education.
Mahatma Gandhi positive
Žižek claims Gandhi was 'more violent than Hitler' because his non-violence aimed to undermine the British system, whereas Hitler's was reactive.
Marquis de Sade positive
Cited as the first to formulate the concept of 'comical undeath' where characters are tortured but reappear unchanged in the next scene.
Robert Pippin positive
Referred to as a 'good friend' and Austrian philosopher, cited at the very end of the excerpt regarding resistance.
Donna Brazile negative
Mentioned as a Democratic figure who 'normalized Trump' by saying 'don't lose nerve' and comparing his term to Reagan/Bush.
Denis Villeneuve positive
Praised for the movie Arrival, which Žižek sees as a refined example of 'circularity' in narrative structure.
Modest Petrovich Mussorgsky positive
Preferred by Žižek over Shostakovich; described as a 'true genius' and 'very dark'.
Vladimir Lenin positive
Admired for his obsession with civility and his proposal for a 'comic agency' (control commission) to check Stalin's power through irony.
Jack Benny positive
Praised for his role in To Be or Not to Be, specifically his witty retort to the Nazi officer.
Mentioned as a figure Žižek is 'almost more afraid of' tech billionaires than, but notes Bannon is 'much more interesting' and recently attacked Trump's tax plan.
Jacques Lacan positive
Referenced as noticing the 'circular time' and 'undeath' in Sade’s work, linking it to oral/anal universes without Oedipal castration.
John Oliver negative
Late-night host whose satire is criticized for being 'toothless' and normalizing Trump.
Oliver Stone positive
Director of the Nixon movie, which 'half rehabilitates' Nixon; Žižek finds it 'very interesting' and agrees with its retroactive assessment of Nixon's social spending.
G. K. Chesterton positive
Described as 'my favorite theologian'; cited for reading God's speech in Job not as arrogance but as a humorous admission of the messiness of creation.
Nikolai Bukharin positive
A 'right-winger' in a Stalinist joke who argues for money as a natural way of exchange.
Nikolai Leskov positive
Author of the original story that Shostakovich adapted into Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District.
Lucille Ball positive
Cited as one of the greatest achievements of American culture for breaking the fourth wall (looking into the camera).
Jon Stewart negative
Late-night host whose satire of Trump is criticized for 'normalizing' him rather than undermining him.
A French politician mentioned in the 'De-Bilić' joke as the recipient of the politician's pretentious introduction.
Daniel Dennett positive
Cited as a 'good cognitivist' who correctly identifies language as a tool for seduction and lying rather than just information exchange.
SYRIZA negative
The Greek left-wing party that was allowed to stay in power to implement 'tough austerity,' leading to 'radical demoralization' and 'depoliticization.'
Donald Trump negative
Described as a 'nightmare' but with 'inconsistencies'; his victory is blamed on Democratic party disorientation. His 'obscene superego' and bad jokes are analyzed.
Anne Applebaum positive
Cited as a liberal source for information about Gulag practices (birthday telegrams).
Larry David positive
Co-creator of Seinfeld; Žižek identifies with his 'Borat-like' persona and the 'Soup Nazi' character.
Mike Pence negative
Described as 'worse' than Trump because he is a 'truly conservative' and what people are afraid Trump is.
Tim Cook negative
Grouped with Zuckerberg and Bezos as big business standing behind LGBT+ movements.
Robin Wright positive
Cited in Blade Runner as representing the state/strict apartheid, forming a 'secondary contradiction' with big corporation.
Jaroslav Hašek positive
Author of The Good Soldier Švejk; Žižek admires his radical political history as a polit-commissar, rejecting the view of the work as merely conformist.
Sacha Baron Cohen positive
Žižek considers him a 'super talented' 'immersive actor' who deserves an Academy Award for staying in character during real-world conflicts.
Jeremy Corbyn positive
Mentioned as a UK figure who embodies a 'serious, moralistic' approach that could reclaim the moral high ground from the right.
Russell Brand positive
Cited as a 'super talented' English comedian who caught the American fancy but couldn't sustain it.
Jeff Bezos negative
Grouped with Zuckerberg and Cook as 'public figures of wisdom' representing a new, insidious type of power.
Giancarlo Giannini positive
The actor who played the protagonist in the film Seven Beauties.
Jure Bilić positive
A Croatian politician from communist Yugoslavia, used in a joke about adopting the French 'De' prefix to sound dignified.
László Rajk positive
A Hungarian figure used in an example of Stalinist trials, where he confessed using 'universal reason'.
Identified by Žižek as the actor playing the commissar in Lubitsch's Ninotchka.
Isaac Asimov positive
Žižek explicitly states Asimov is 'not my favorite sci-fi writer' but praises the 'nice short story' Jokester for its theoretical utility.
Adolf Hitler positive
Contrasted with Stalin regarding the reception of applause and the nature of public spectacle.
Bernie Sanders positive
Described as returning to 'basic economic questions' and possessing an 'authentic moral majority' compared to Trump; his brutal defeat by Hillary is blamed for Trump's victory.
Mark Zuckerberg negative
Cited as a 'public figure of wisdom' who claims Facebook provides 'purpose' while running meaningless activity; Žižek finds him frightening.
Tom Cruise negative
Mentioned in War of the Worlds as a 'bad father' who saves his children, fitting the Oedipal pattern Žižek critiques.
George Hitchcock positive
Used as a benchmark for great directors; Žižek suggests Lubitsch should be put in the same series of books written about Hitchcock.
Mentioned in the title of Billy Bathgate, which Žižek uses to illustrate his theory of the 'specter of a truly great work.'
Bertolt Brecht positive
Cited for his concept of 'imaginary Hollywood' and the idea of detachment/fictionalization to understand reality.
Aeschylus positive
Cited for The Persians, which celebrates Greeks but takes place in the Persian court, illustrating identity formation through the foreign gaze.
Mentioned as part of the Democratic party fight with Sanders.
Mentioned as a guest on Curb Your Enthusiasm; Žižek notes he was 'very good' and 'very funny' in the show.
Mentioned in the context of his unfinished, unreleased Holocaust movie The Day the Clown Cried.
Jared Leto positive
Praised in Blade Runner as a 'wonderful key figure' representing the absolute capitalist drive.
Sergei Prokofiev positive
Described by Žižek as a 'much more mysterious phenomenon' than Shostakovich.
Émile Zola positive
Cited in relation to 'Thérèse Raquin' as an example of objective naturalist portrait of a monster woman.
Ernst Lubitsch positive
Žižek argues Lubitsch should be 'rehabilitated' and placed among great directors like Hitchcock for his handling of Nazi humor.
Donald Sutherland positive
Cited as the actor in the Philip Kaufman version of Invasion of the Body Snatchers, which Žižek prefers.
Harvey Weinstein negative
Used as a contemporary scandalous label ('Harvey Weinstein of philosophy') to describe Žižek’s provocative and potentially dangerous intellectual style.
Leni Riefenstahl positive
Used as an ironic comparison for Sophie Fiennes' editing process on 'Olympia' and the Pervert's Guides.
Polish PM whose party enacted welfare reforms (lowered retirement age) and who used an obscene phrase ('now it's our turn to fuck the whore') to describe his program.
Referenced as a label Žižek was called 'ten years ago' ('Borat of philosophy'), contrasting with his current 'Harvey Weinstein' label.
Hillary Clinton negative
Blamed for 'brutally' getting rid of Bernie Sanders and manipulating the primary, leading to the Democratic party's loss.
Søren Kierkegaard positive
Cited for the view that Christianity is immanently a comic religion.
Cited in the context of a theory that Trump is a fan of positive thinking, creating a future while others complain about the past.
Alfred Hitchcock positive
Used as a primary example of 'comic identification' and the contingency of identity in North by Northwest.
Ludwig Feuerbach positive
Referenced via the 'fourth thesis on Feuerbach,' which the General Secretary instructed young communists to follow.
Vladimir Putin negative
Described as 'no fan' of Žižek's; mentioned in the context of alleged election interference, which Žižek dismisses as a scapegoat for Democratic party failures.
Trevor Noah positive
Cited as a source for the observation that Trump's presidency has increased public discourse on ethics and democracy.
Dmitri Shostakovich positive
Analyzed for his opera Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District; Žižek views him as an opportunist who manipulated political narratives.
Martin Luther King Jr. positive
Cited to show that historical racism struggles were about economic justice, not 'tolerance,' which is a modern culturalization of the issue.
Joseph Stalin negative
Cited in Lenin's testament as someone who was not 'kind and polite enough,' requiring a comic counter-balance.
Steven Spielberg negative
Critiqued for Schindler’s List, War of the Worlds, and E.T. for relying on a repetitive 'Oedipal story' where a bad father becomes a good father, which ruins the films for Žižek.
Karl Marx positive
Cited for the theory that British democracy resulted from mistranslating medieval documents, highlighting the creative power of error.
Sigmund Freud positive
Cited for the function of the third party in jokes and the problem of the 'too permissive father' in psychoanalysis.
Milan Kundera positive
Cited as the author of The Joke, which Žižek considers his best work, and used to illustrate the comical twist of despair.
Ludwig Wittgenstein positive
Cited for his wartime diaries, which reveal that sexual fantasy can be structured by non-sexual intellectual debates.
Ronald Reagan negative
Described as the 'Teflon president' who introduced 'comical self-distance' and 'standard dignity' rejection, setting a precedent for Trump.
Transcript 272 turns
Slavoj Žižek
And there it is important in lines like this, no? Like this: Husband comes home, sees her ass, no? Raises the skirt, bam, bam, bam. And after, okay, the usual four, five minutes, he says, I finished. How did you, honey? No, I still have four lines. They are absolutely, you know that even the, that's the beauty there, they should go together, even the Palestinians in Ramallah, first, many of them are Christians, and they have also an excellent sense of humor. I heard there the best, not even so vulgar, Jesus Christ jokes. I think I told you on the phone those two that I quote. It's wonderful. They are civilized people. Everybody knows that Palestinians
And there it is important in lines like this, no? Like this: Husband comes home, sees her ass, no? Raises the skirt, bam, bam, bam. And after, okay, the usual four, five minutes, he says, I finished. How did you, honey? No, I still have four lines. They are absolutely, you know that even the, that's the beauty there, they should go together, even the Palestinians in Ramallah, first, many of them are Christians, and they have also an excellent sense of humor. I heard there the best, not even so vulgar, Jesus Christ jokes. I think I told you on the phone those two that I quote. It's wonderful. They are civilized people. Everybody knows that Palestinians
unknown
are the Jews of the Arabs. We spent, we spent time in Nazareth. We actually spent a lot of time with a great Palestinian comedian, who I think could be a star in America even, and he's sort of trying to change the whole political.
are the Jews of the Arabs. We spent, we spent time in Nazareth. We actually spent a lot of time with a great Palestinian comedian, who I think could be a star in America even, and he's sort of trying to change the whole political.
Slavoj Žižek
I know, I know because my friend Udi Aloni, I think he also knows that comedian with whom you were there. Yeah,
I know, I know because my friend Udi Aloni, I think he also knows that comedian with whom you were there. Yeah,
unknown
there's a few, there's a comedy scene in Palestine. But you know what
there's a few, there's a comedy scene in Palestine. But you know what
Slavoj Žižek
our media don't report, they are not crazy, all crazy religious fanatics, like they have a singer, some rock band who sings beautiful songs against honor murders and so on. They are not all fanatics. No, a whole movement. For they have, and in Ramallah they showed me, you have gay clubs, you have things like this, all there. Gaza is another. Well, right, exactly.
our media don't report, they are not crazy, all crazy religious fanatics, like they have a singer, some rock band who sings beautiful songs against honor murders and so on. They are not all fanatics. No, a whole movement. For they have, and in Ramallah they showed me, you have gay clubs, you have things like this, all there. Gaza is another. Well, right, exactly.
unknown
Where the fight, but that's true even in Iraq, where the fighting is is different than where the people are trying to figure things out. We were up in Erbil, you know, again, a lot of these imaginary places. Is Kurdistan a real place or is Kurdistan an imaginary place in Iraq? Is Palestine a real place or is Palestine an imaginary place?
Where the fight, but that's true even in Iraq, where the fighting is is different than where the people are trying to figure things out. We were up in Erbil, you know, again, a lot of these imaginary places. Is Kurdistan a real place or is Kurdistan an imaginary place in Iraq? Is Palestine a real place or is Palestine an imaginary place?
Slavoj Žižek
But this is a very good point because you were making, for example, it's clear that Hollywood, what Bertolt Brecht, he writes about his imaginary Hollywood. Yes, exactly. He
But this is a very good point because you were making, for example, it's clear that Hollywood, what Bertolt Brecht, he writes about his imaginary Hollywood. Yes, exactly. He
unknown
loves
loves
Slavoj Žižek
the detachment of it also, to be able to look at it as a kind of fictional thing. Yeah, yeah, how even a real place, to really understand it, you have to look at it as an imaginary place. Absolutely. I grew
the detachment of it also, to be able to look at it as a kind of fictional thing. Yeah, yeah, how even a real place, to really understand it, you have to look at it as an imaginary place. Absolutely. I grew
unknown
up here. I grew up in Coney Island. Really? This is where I grew up. I grew up a couple of blocks
up here. I grew up in Coney Island. Really? This is where I grew up. I grew up a couple of blocks
Slavoj Žižek
from here. Really? Was it already Russian? It was, it was old Russian when I first lived here. Had those people died out, like the
from here. Really? Was it already Russian? It was, it was old Russian when I first lived here. Had those people died out, like the
unknown
old, probably people who left in the turn of the century.
old, probably people who left in the turn of the century.
Slavoj Žižek
Did you notice this tendency which worries me a lot, that now in Hollywood, one of the targets like Palestinian, Arab terrorist, blah, blah, of action movies, the bad guys tend to be Russian mafia. They are now accepted as one of the ultimate figures of. Yes, I
Did you notice this tendency which worries me a lot, that now in Hollywood, one of the targets like Palestinian, Arab terrorist, blah, blah, of action movies, the bad guys tend to be Russian mafia. They are now accepted as one of the ultimate figures of. Yes, I
unknown
think Hollywood has meetings and decided who the villain will be that year in the action movies. One year it's the Palestinians, one year it's the, it's the Arab terrorists, whoever they are.
think Hollywood has meetings and decided who the villain will be that year in the action movies. One year it's the Palestinians, one year it's the, it's the Arab terrorists, whoever they are.
Slavoj Žižek
The Latino American narco-mafia, of
The Latino American narco-mafia, of
unknown
course. Yes, exactly. And the Russians are always a convenient.
course. Yes, exactly. And the Russians are always a convenient.
Slavoj Žižek
But it, it only started with this new explosion of oligarchs in the 90s. I don't think it was before. I think you're right. I
But it, it only started with this new explosion of oligarchs in the 90s. I don't think it was before. I think you're right. I
unknown
don't think they saw them as evil enough that evil enough to kind of overturn
don't think they saw them as evil enough that evil enough to kind of overturn
Slavoj Žižek
things. No, no. Before, in the 80s, they were modest, terrified victims of Stalinist horror. Cold War was
things. No, no. Before, in the 80s, they were modest, terrified victims of Stalinist horror. Cold War was
unknown
being felt
being felt
Slavoj Žižek
at that time. Sorry, I'm interrupting. Another thing which is important, just to make it clear. First, I can talk blah, blah, and you are the censor. I don't have to worry. You find somebody with my, you find somebody with a similar voice, you can fake it or you can dub me and so. I'm going to work on my impression. Yeah, yeah. Second thing, tell me the standards, it's not a problem for me, but by mistake, the F-word can enter. It's better to avoid it? No, not at all. F-word is allowed. Totally good. Because you know, I have such bad, this may amuse you, I had recently an experience in London at a book signing. A guy came to me, wanted, said, Professor, I admire your work. Please, could you write a dedication to me, whatever you want. I warned him. I told him, listen, you are talking to a madman, like. He said, doesn't matter, insulting, vulgar. He got it. I put it something like, in a dirty toilet full of urine, I fuck your mother in her ass while she is standing. Then he was hurt. Fuck him! I warned him two, three times, you know. You are talking to a madman and I mean it when you say. So did he take the book ultimately? Yeah, but he was. That's one of the most valuable dedications he has ever had. Yeah, yeah, but, but he was. Another thing with my German friends or militaries they like. I sign the book, till death, and then I add in brackets, of our enemies, not our death, like fuck you, I don't want to die, you know. Right, that makes sense. That's good. All right, so let us get. Sorry, yes. No, no, no. He's this is Ken. Yeah, hey, how are you? Ken's going to get you. Nice to meet you. And also another thing, will you be running around, aha, we talk. Yeah, we'll sit down. I don't talk into the camera. You talk to me. Yeah, that's this, these two basic things. And I do have a question. F-word, I will not, don't be afraid, I will not, and also, although spontaneously, you know, none of, too much of this and no F-word. So we're going to drop this down the back of your shirt, if that's okay. Yeah, yeah. Ah, now you will want something after you talk to me. He does. Did you see Russian music? My tastes are strange. I much prefer Mussorgsky. He is the true genius, very dark. The same as although now the popular appeal is 20th century on Shostakovich. Right, he's been kind of redeemed. Yes, no, no, no. Prokofiev is more. Shostakovich made, you know what, you know a little bit about, you know his opera Stalin was horrified, he was almost arrested, opera Lady Macbeth. Right, right. It's a much darker story. Not that Stalin was right, but the mystery is not why Stalin prohibited it, it's open sex there. The mystery is why one year and a half before it was prohibited, it was the greatest mega success. not performances, different staging just in Soviet. You know what's the story? No. It changed, a poor girl married to a rich peasant, farmer, kills him and his father. At the epoch of dekulakization, liquidate the rich farmers. And very astutely Shostakovich manipulated this. So he was kind of trying to fool Stalin by doing that? No, no, no. No, no, he was much more also of an opportunist. Okay. His idea was, let's do something that fits the political moment. What fit the political moment of the day was killing rich farmers. Okay. So because the original Nikolai Leskov story is much more against the heroine. She is portrayed as a pure evil. Here she becomes a proto-Soviet. Yeah, that's interesting because again in the original obviously Lady Macbeth is kind of like the death behind. Is this like Thérèse Raquin by Zola? Is this typical, is this typical objective naturalist portrait of a monster woman? Right. Here she becomes a heroine. Why? Because she kills a rich farmer, that's the order of the day there, you know? She's actually a revolutionary in a way. Yeah, yeah, no, no. So here it is. Because even the way she encourages Macbeth in the original play, you might even be able to interpret that as like sort of trying to overthrow the system in some way. Yeah, yeah. My Prokofiev is a much more mysterious phenomenon. Okay, let's not lose time with this. Do you want me, do you want to give me, okay, you control everything, no? I will control everything. And to. I already signed that, so you own me. So whatever you do, you can digitally cut out my head, put it on some hardcore fuck scene on the head of that.
at that time. Sorry, I'm interrupting. Another thing which is important, just to make it clear. First, I can talk blah, blah, and you are the censor. I don't have to worry. You find somebody with my, you find somebody with a similar voice, you can fake it or you can dub me and so. I'm going to work on my impression. Yeah, yeah. Second thing, tell me the standards, it's not a problem for me, but by mistake, the F-word can enter. It's better to avoid it? No, not at all. F-word is allowed. Totally good. Because you know, I have such bad, this may amuse you, I had recently an experience in London at a book signing. A guy came to me, wanted, said, Professor, I admire your work. Please, could you write a dedication to me, whatever you want. I warned him. I told him, listen, you are talking to a madman, like. He said, doesn't matter, insulting, vulgar. He got it. I put it something like, in a dirty toilet full of urine, I fuck your mother in her ass while she is standing. Then he was hurt. Fuck him! I warned him two, three times, you know. You are talking to a madman and I mean it when you say. So did he take the book ultimately? Yeah, but he was. That's one of the most valuable dedications he has ever had. Yeah, yeah, but, but he was. Another thing with my German friends or militaries they like. I sign the book, till death, and then I add in brackets, of our enemies, not our death, like fuck you, I don't want to die, you know. Right, that makes sense. That's good. All right, so let us get. Sorry, yes. No, no, no. He's this is Ken. Yeah, hey, how are you? Ken's going to get you. Nice to meet you. And also another thing, will you be running around, aha, we talk. Yeah, we'll sit down. I don't talk into the camera. You talk to me. Yeah, that's this, these two basic things. And I do have a question. F-word, I will not, don't be afraid, I will not, and also, although spontaneously, you know, none of, too much of this and no F-word. So we're going to drop this down the back of your shirt, if that's okay. Yeah, yeah. Ah, now you will want something after you talk to me. He does. Did you see Russian music? My tastes are strange. I much prefer Mussorgsky. He is the true genius, very dark. The same as although now the popular appeal is 20th century on Shostakovich. Right, he's been kind of redeemed. Yes, no, no, no. Prokofiev is more. Shostakovich made, you know what, you know a little bit about, you know his opera Stalin was horrified, he was almost arrested, opera Lady Macbeth. Right, right. It's a much darker story. Not that Stalin was right, but the mystery is not why Stalin prohibited it, it's open sex there. The mystery is why one year and a half before it was prohibited, it was the greatest mega success. not performances, different staging just in Soviet. You know what's the story? No. It changed, a poor girl married to a rich peasant, farmer, kills him and his father. At the epoch of dekulakization, liquidate the rich farmers. And very astutely Shostakovich manipulated this. So he was kind of trying to fool Stalin by doing that? No, no, no. No, no, he was much more also of an opportunist. Okay. His idea was, let's do something that fits the political moment. What fit the political moment of the day was killing rich farmers. Okay. So because the original Nikolai Leskov story is much more against the heroine. She is portrayed as a pure evil. Here she becomes a proto-Soviet. Yeah, that's interesting because again in the original obviously Lady Macbeth is kind of like the death behind. Is this like Thérèse Raquin by Zola? Is this typical, is this typical objective naturalist portrait of a monster woman? Right. Here she becomes a heroine. Why? Because she kills a rich farmer, that's the order of the day there, you know? She's actually a revolutionary in a way. Yeah, yeah, no, no. So here it is. Because even the way she encourages Macbeth in the original play, you might even be able to interpret that as like sort of trying to overthrow the system in some way. Yeah, yeah. My Prokofiev is a much more mysterious phenomenon. Okay, let's not lose time with this. Do you want me, do you want to give me, okay, you control everything, no? I will control everything. And to. I already signed that, so you own me. So whatever you do, you can digitally cut out my head, put it on some hardcore fuck scene on the head of that.
unknown
I always sympathize
I always sympathize
Slavoj Žižek
in hardcore movies how the guys fucking, they're usually with tattoos, some poor sailors. They're the true hard workers. Yes, yes. I sympathize with them, you know. All
in hardcore movies how the guys fucking, they're usually with tattoos, some poor sailors. They're the true hard workers. Yes, yes. I sympathize with them, you know. All
unknown
right, so let's, um, yeah.
right, so let's, um, yeah.
Slavoj Žižek
Any instructions? Do you want to take a peak at the
Any instructions? Do you want to take a peak at the
unknown
other room or should we? I think we should do it in here because I like, I like the
other room or should we? I think we should do it in here because I like, I like the
Slavoj Žižek
daylight is nice. No, sorry, I. You know how I misunderstood you? You want to take a pee in the other room and he answering, no we can pee here, we can pee here. You know, I always look at him as infected by Borat and Larry David and. But I will tell you something. Yeah. You were also involved in Seinfeld, no? You know which is absolute myth in my country? Were you involved in that one? The episode of that Nazi guy, Nazi, pseudo-Nazi, how is he called Nazi who is selling food and terrorize them, no? You don't get, you remember that episode? In the limousine with. No, no, he has a small place where he's selling some soup. Soup Nazi. Soup Nazi! That's absolute, I sympathize, I was so identified with the guy, I was on his side! My God, that, that's what we need! I
daylight is nice. No, sorry, I. You know how I misunderstood you? You want to take a pee in the other room and he answering, no we can pee here, we can pee here. You know, I always look at him as infected by Borat and Larry David and. But I will tell you something. Yeah. You were also involved in Seinfeld, no? You know which is absolute myth in my country? Were you involved in that one? The episode of that Nazi guy, Nazi, pseudo-Nazi, how is he called Nazi who is selling food and terrorize them, no? You don't get, you remember that episode? In the limousine with. No, no, he has a small place where he's selling some soup. Soup Nazi. Soup Nazi! That's absolute, I sympathize, I was so identified with the guy, I was on his side! My God, that, that's what we need! I
unknown
think a lot of people were on his side actually. Yeah, and it was so tragic when they stole the recipe from
think a lot of people were on his side actually. Yeah, and it was so tragic when they stole the recipe from
Slavoj Žižek
him or. But I was on his side. Yes,
him or. But I was on his side. Yes,
unknown
well there's a lot of bad behavior in Seinfeld. That's, it's an amoral show. It had, you know, our motto was no hugging, no learning. You know, that was the motto of the show. We actually rewarded bad behavior because most sitcoms, look at the picture this is. I know, I know. the, uh, most sitcoms were about these fake moral endings. Yes, yeah. And so we were, thank you very much, great. Uh, we were committed to. Mhm. The amorality.
well there's a lot of bad behavior in Seinfeld. That's, it's an amoral show. It had, you know, our motto was no hugging, no learning. You know, that was the motto of the show. We actually rewarded bad behavior because most sitcoms, look at the picture this is. I know, I know. the, uh, most sitcoms were about these fake moral endings. Yes, yeah. And so we were, thank you very much, great. Uh, we were committed to. Mhm. The amorality.
Slavoj Žižek
So to ask you the usual obscene question, apart from Larry and Seinfeld himself, did you also become a millionaire based on that? No, not enough. Or well, we, we. Okay, you didn't become poor because of that.
So to ask you the usual obscene question, apart from Larry and Seinfeld himself, did you also become a millionaire based on that? No, not enough. Or well, we, we. Okay, you didn't become poor because of that.
unknown
Right, I did not become poor, that's
Right, I did not become poor, that's
Slavoj Žižek
true. That's, let's put it in a modest way. That
true. That's, let's put it in a modest way. That
unknown
would be fair, that would be fair, a fair,
would be fair, that would be fair, a fair,
Slavoj Žižek
a fair measure. It's nice. But ah, another thing all my friends are asking me. Yes. It's a fake or was really a model that place just two blocks down from Columbia University which is supposed to be the Seinfeld place? What's the reality there? Yeah, that's
a fair measure. It's nice. But ah, another thing all my friends are asking me. Yes. It's a fake or was really a model that place just two blocks down from Columbia University which is supposed to be the Seinfeld place? What's the reality there? Yeah, that's
unknown
the place. It's called Tom's Diner.
the place. It's called Tom's Diner.
Slavoj Žižek
Yeah, yeah, I know. Yes, that's a real place. Because it's opposite to that, recently or recently, years back opened. But that's not
Yeah, yeah, I know. Yes, that's a real place. Because it's opposite to that, recently or recently, years back opened. But that's not
unknown
where they used to actually hang out. That's where the show coffee shop is. But in reality they hung out at a coffee shop in Midtown somewhere.
where they used to actually hang out. That's where the show coffee shop is. But in reality they hung out at a coffee shop in Midtown somewhere.
Slavoj Žižek
Ah, so you did, you didn't build it on the set, it was a real. The interior was, the whole show was shot in Los
Ah, so you did, you didn't build it on the set, it was a real. The interior was, the whole show was shot in Los
unknown
Angeles for the most part. The whole show was shot in
Angeles for the most part. The whole show was shot in
Slavoj Žižek
Los Angeles. What? Oh my God, now you, you really know how to ruin my last illusion. Isn't that my job to
Los Angeles. What? Oh my God, now you, you really know how to ruin my last illusion. Isn't that my job to
unknown
demythologize these things? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, all right, so why don't you sit down there. Then here? Yes, right there.
demythologize these things? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, all right, so why don't you sit down there. Then here? Yes, right there.
Slavoj Žižek
and. You know, treat me as an idiot. I need clear, you know, I'm a Leninist. You know what Lenin said? Democracy yes, anarchy no. The way I read it is democracy yes if you know who is the boss, you know. Right,
and. You know, treat me as an idiot. I need clear, you know, I'm a Leninist. You know what Lenin said? Democracy yes, anarchy no. The way I read it is democracy yes if you know who is the boss, you know. Right,
unknown
right, right. So based on that, please have
right, right. So based on that, please have
Slavoj Žižek
a seat. I want to make free decisions, but I want somebody to tell me how to choose, what do I really want. You want
a seat. I want to make free decisions, but I want somebody to tell me how to choose, what do I really want. You want
unknown
freedom, you want freedom from choice
freedom, you want freedom from choice
Slavoj Žižek
really. Yes,
really. Yes,
unknown
yeah,
yeah,
Slavoj Žižek
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can do that. I can do that. Okay, okay? Yeah. We're going to just fix
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can do that. I can do that. Okay, okay? Yeah. We're going to just fix
unknown
you up with the. Should
you up with the. Should
Slavoj Žižek
I be attentive to anything? Like, I don't know, not to sweat too much, not to move my chair, give me, give me just instructions. Yes, yes, please. Okay, great. Let's start. Because I could, I'm pretty sure I could ask one question and we could pretty much go from there. No, I get lost, I get repetitive, so it's a good thing that you have then the executive power. You know, I want you to do a good Stalinist job symbolically, you know, to. I will do my best. I'll control the boundaries. yeah, not only this but also figures in the background should disappear from. Yes, yeah, well there will be, and this is actually a great background. But now finally America is learning from Stalin's wisdom. Do you remember when was it, some three, four years ago, that Janet Jackson scandal, her breast? Yes. I read that after that they adopted the Stalinist procedure of one second or what delay. Delay, yes. Oh, finally they are learning from true people's democracy. And using
I be attentive to anything? Like, I don't know, not to sweat too much, not to move my chair, give me, give me just instructions. Yes, yes, please. Okay, great. Let's start. Because I could, I'm pretty sure I could ask one question and we could pretty much go from there. No, I get lost, I get repetitive, so it's a good thing that you have then the executive power. You know, I want you to do a good Stalinist job symbolically, you know, to. I will do my best. I'll control the boundaries. yeah, not only this but also figures in the background should disappear from. Yes, yeah, well there will be, and this is actually a great background. But now finally America is learning from Stalin's wisdom. Do you remember when was it, some three, four years ago, that Janet Jackson scandal, her breast? Yes. I read that after that they adopted the Stalinist procedure of one second or what delay. Delay, yes. Oh, finally they are learning from true people's democracy. And using
unknown
technology is actually kind of promoting fascism in a way. Yes, it's a way to control things.
technology is actually kind of promoting fascism in a way. Yes, it's a way to control things.
Slavoj Žižek
Although I wrote about this, this is so interesting. Tell me. Not that I praise Stalin, but did you notice, I wrote in some of my past books, I don't know if you know it, these differences which are very significative. Apparently superficial, but they tell you something between Stalinism and Nazism. For example, maybe you know it, my big example. After a speech, Hitler delivers a speech, the crowd is applauding, Hitler just accepts the applause. A Stalinist leader always stands up and joins the applause. Wow! This is one difference. Second difference, very interesting. Do you know, I got this not from some leftist, from that famous liberal Anne Applebaum, Gulag. Yes, yeah. Do you know that in Gulag, every year on Stalin's birthday they gathered all the prisoners and they had to sign a telegram wishing all the best to Stalin. Wow! You cannot imagine this, it's meaningless. In the Nazi, what? You gather all the Jews to sign telegram to
Although I wrote about this, this is so interesting. Tell me. Not that I praise Stalin, but did you notice, I wrote in some of my past books, I don't know if you know it, these differences which are very significative. Apparently superficial, but they tell you something between Stalinism and Nazism. For example, maybe you know it, my big example. After a speech, Hitler delivers a speech, the crowd is applauding, Hitler just accepts the applause. A Stalinist leader always stands up and joins the applause. Wow! This is one difference. Second difference, very interesting. Do you know, I got this not from some leftist, from that famous liberal Anne Applebaum, Gulag. Yes, yeah. Do you know that in Gulag, every year on Stalin's birthday they gathered all the prisoners and they had to sign a telegram wishing all the best to Stalin. Wow! You cannot imagine this, it's meaningless. In the Nazi, what? You gather all the Jews to sign telegram to
unknown
Hitler? Dear Adolf,
Hitler? Dear Adolf,
Slavoj Žižek
happy birthday. Yes. Another thing interesting. The monster trials, which were of course directed, I mean organized, but in a very specific way. The accused was, of course through torture, pressure, taught to repeat the exact lines and why? It's a very tragic position. At the same time you were the lowest scum, blah, blah, but at the same time, and that's the perverted legacy of Enlightenment in Stalinism. At the same time even the lowest traitor was supposed to have access to universal reason from which she could see the truth about himself. For example they ask László Rajk, famous Hungary anti-Stalin trial, how did you become a traitor? And he said, already when I was a small boy my parents taught me to hate the working class and so on. You know, like where does he talk from? Yes. This is typical Enlightenment, we all are part of universal reason. Yes. That's also why interesting. In Nazism they it's not part of their universe to organize a big trial where the leading Jews would have admitted that there is a plot. This is one thing which tragically nonetheless maybe makes Nazism a tiny little bit worse because in Stalinism at least you had to admit it. Yes. With all the horror, torture, it means you are still considered minimally a free human being, while in Nazism if you are a Jew the only thing I have to prove is that you are a Jew. It doesn't matter what you. Yeah. But aren't these things so interesting? You can see how in what different way nonetheless the system. Well,
happy birthday. Yes. Another thing interesting. The monster trials, which were of course directed, I mean organized, but in a very specific way. The accused was, of course through torture, pressure, taught to repeat the exact lines and why? It's a very tragic position. At the same time you were the lowest scum, blah, blah, but at the same time, and that's the perverted legacy of Enlightenment in Stalinism. At the same time even the lowest traitor was supposed to have access to universal reason from which she could see the truth about himself. For example they ask László Rajk, famous Hungary anti-Stalin trial, how did you become a traitor? And he said, already when I was a small boy my parents taught me to hate the working class and so on. You know, like where does he talk from? Yes. This is typical Enlightenment, we all are part of universal reason. Yes. That's also why interesting. In Nazism they it's not part of their universe to organize a big trial where the leading Jews would have admitted that there is a plot. This is one thing which tragically nonetheless maybe makes Nazism a tiny little bit worse because in Stalinism at least you had to admit it. Yes. With all the horror, torture, it means you are still considered minimally a free human being, while in Nazism if you are a Jew the only thing I have to prove is that you are a Jew. It doesn't matter what you. Yeah. But aren't these things so interesting? You can see how in what different way nonetheless the system. Well,
unknown
which of those two systems do you think were funnier, was?
which of those two systems do you think were funnier, was?
Slavoj Žižek
Stalinism, definitely. Stalinism. Tell me why, tell me why. Uh, because it added because we all know comedy is always, one of the formulas of comedy, is always this minimal self-distance. Like a comedy is when I, Hegel already says this, that you no longer have simply the split between me as an actor and me as acting a certain role. But me as the actor becomes part of my role so that I'm able to comment on what I'm doing, you know? Right. In a comedy you always have this weird split where, you know where, if you ask me two greatest three greatest achievements of American culture, forget are one is this didn't she introduce it, you must know it better on me before Lucille Ball or what, you know, this idea of where they consciously break the great fiction movies rule not look into the camera. When
Stalinism, definitely. Stalinism. Tell me why, tell me why. Uh, because it added because we all know comedy is always, one of the formulas of comedy, is always this minimal self-distance. Like a comedy is when I, Hegel already says this, that you no longer have simply the split between me as an actor and me as acting a certain role. But me as the actor becomes part of my role so that I'm able to comment on what I'm doing, you know? Right. In a comedy you always have this weird split where, you know where, if you ask me two greatest three greatest achievements of American culture, forget are one is this didn't she introduce it, you must know it better on me before Lucille Ball or what, you know, this idea of where they consciously break the great fiction movies rule not look into the camera. When
unknown
she is and you
she is and you
Slavoj Žižek
look into this, this is comic element. Right. It's
look into this, this is comic element. Right. It's
unknown
Brechtian also, isn't
Brechtian also, isn't
Slavoj Žižek
it? It's drawing on a kind of a Brechtian, yes. Yeah. Another great invention of United States is canned laughter. I've written pages on it. This is you know why because it's magical thinking. I spoke with some psychologists they are wrong, they think that the point of canned laughter is in this Pavlovian way to make you way to make you laugh. No, the set laughs laughs for you! Yes! The trick is you are tired in the evening, uh, you watch at it the the the the the the TV set laughs for you and you feel relieved as if you. It does the work, it does the work for you. That's it! And the last genius they are among the best American jokes. Two. One all those, you know, good doctor, first bad news then good news. Yes, yes, yes, yes. You know some of them they are stupid, but some are ingenious.
it? It's drawing on a kind of a Brechtian, yes. Yeah. Another great invention of United States is canned laughter. I've written pages on it. This is you know why because it's magical thinking. I spoke with some psychologists they are wrong, they think that the point of canned laughter is in this Pavlovian way to make you way to make you laugh. No, the set laughs laughs for you! Yes! The trick is you are tired in the evening, uh, you watch at it the the the the the the TV set laughs for you and you feel relieved as if you. It does the work, it does the work for you. That's it! And the last genius they are among the best American jokes. Two. One all those, you know, good doctor, first bad news then good news. Yes, yes, yes, yes. You know some of them they are stupid, but some are ingenious.
unknown
Do you have a favorite?
Do you have a favorite?
Slavoj Žižek
Uh, a favorite it's the one. Okay we know the usual story like you say first bad news, okay you know this is standard Hegelian negation of negation. Yes. This is not even a good joke just to give you an example. It's like, okay I'm your doctor, the bad news we discovered you have cancer you will be dead in two months. Then you say, so what can be the good news? We also discovered you have Alzheimer's and you will forget the bad news before you reach home. Right. But then there is an ingenious dialectical one. Yes. I tell you first the good news then the bad news. Okay. But then the trick is that the good news are so bad, the good news is very soon your name will be a household name for a new little disease, you know. Who wants to hear the bad news? Yeah, that is the good news, yeah. And my favorite other, they are exquisite, is the jokes about the jokes about this sexually innocent idiot, mhm, educated introduced into sex by an experienced woman.
Uh, a favorite it's the one. Okay we know the usual story like you say first bad news, okay you know this is standard Hegelian negation of negation. Yes. This is not even a good joke just to give you an example. It's like, okay I'm your doctor, the bad news we discovered you have cancer you will be dead in two months. Then you say, so what can be the good news? We also discovered you have Alzheimer's and you will forget the bad news before you reach home. Right. But then there is an ingenious dialectical one. Yes. I tell you first the good news then the bad news. Okay. But then the trick is that the good news are so bad, the good news is very soon your name will be a household name for a new little disease, you know. Who wants to hear the bad news? Yeah, that is the good news, yeah. And my favorite other, they are exquisite, is the jokes about the jokes about this sexually innocent idiot, mhm, educated introduced into sex by an experienced woman.
unknown
Right, you, it's often, it's often like on a farm.
Right, you, it's often, it's often like on a farm.
Slavoj Žižek
Yeah, yeah, but what I like is how what a deep philosophical lesson. Like my favorite, sorry, I'm sure you know it, but the structure is that okay, a guy is introduced into sex and the woman says, look, put down your trousers, she masturbates him. You see now, you have erection, I have here vagina, touch me, I'm wet, now you penetrate me and now you move in out in out. You know what the idiot says after half a minute, can't you finally decide? It's in or out! Very deep philosophically. It makes the point, that's for me the greatest legacy if you ask me of. But really the cruelly true. That's the, that's the apex of American culture basically is that joke. Yeah, but I take it seriously. I
Yeah, yeah, but what I like is how what a deep philosophical lesson. Like my favorite, sorry, I'm sure you know it, but the structure is that okay, a guy is introduced into sex and the woman says, look, put down your trousers, she masturbates him. You see now, you have erection, I have here vagina, touch me, I'm wet, now you penetrate me and now you move in out in out. You know what the idiot says after half a minute, can't you finally decide? It's in or out! Very deep philosophically. It makes the point, that's for me the greatest legacy if you ask me of. But really the cruelly true. That's the, that's the apex of American culture basically is that joke. Yeah, but I take it seriously. I
unknown
understand. Canned laughter, I'm not laughing at it because you know when I use this canned laughter
understand. Canned laughter, I'm not laughing at it because you know when I use this canned laughter
Slavoj Žižek
example because people usually treat as primitive those in Greece, some other countries where they still exist, I visited them in South of Peloponnese where you pay women to mourn for you. Your father dies, you do all the usual stuff, who will get the money, but you pay women to mourn for you. Right. And they people usually say oh, how primitive, primitive. Sorry, we are doing exactly the same thing paying the TV set to laugh for you. Yes, right. We have the surrogates so we don't have to have the experience ourselves. Exactly.
example because people usually treat as primitive those in Greece, some other countries where they still exist, I visited them in South of Peloponnese where you pay women to mourn for you. Your father dies, you do all the usual stuff, who will get the money, but you pay women to mourn for you. Right. And they people usually say oh, how primitive, primitive. Sorry, we are doing exactly the same thing paying the TV set to laugh for you. Yes, right. We have the surrogates so we don't have to have the experience ourselves. Exactly.
unknown
And
And
Slavoj Žižek
no, my philosophical point here now a little bit more serious is that what if this is always the structure of humor, that is wrong to think there is a zero level where you really laugh spontaneously whatever. It's always this minimum of distance, in this sense what you said a comical structure. Right. Which is why comedy is some for me something that can be more tragic than tragedy. Okay, to very simply explain it to you, tragedy still implies a minimum of your personal dignity. Like let's imagine Auschwitz. Okay. A Nazi officer tries to beat you, torture you and you do this heroic gesture, oh no, kill me but you will not break me and so on. If you were to shoot an Auschwitz movie with such a scene it would have been ridiculous, painting Nazis in a much too soft way. Yes. You were so much broken down there, reduced to your so-called, you know, in in Primo Levi, this Muselmänner, so-called Muslims living dead. It doesn't work so no wonder. So again my idea is that it's a deep necessity in the fact that most of the good movies of of and unfortunately I don't include here Schindler's List on Holocaust are comedies. Right, right. And I don't mean and I don't mean unfortunately La vita bella. Did you see the Italian one, Pasqualino Settebellezze? Is that? No, I don't know what you mean. Ah, it's a
no, my philosophical point here now a little bit more serious is that what if this is always the structure of humor, that is wrong to think there is a zero level where you really laugh spontaneously whatever. It's always this minimum of distance, in this sense what you said a comical structure. Right. Which is why comedy is some for me something that can be more tragic than tragedy. Okay, to very simply explain it to you, tragedy still implies a minimum of your personal dignity. Like let's imagine Auschwitz. Okay. A Nazi officer tries to beat you, torture you and you do this heroic gesture, oh no, kill me but you will not break me and so on. If you were to shoot an Auschwitz movie with such a scene it would have been ridiculous, painting Nazis in a much too soft way. Yes. You were so much broken down there, reduced to your so-called, you know, in in Primo Levi, this Muselmänner, so-called Muslims living dead. It doesn't work so no wonder. So again my idea is that it's a deep necessity in the fact that most of the good movies of of and unfortunately I don't include here Schindler's List on Holocaust are comedies. Right, right. And I don't mean and I don't mean unfortunately La vita bella. Did you see the Italian one, Pasqualino Settebellezze? Is that? No, I don't know what you mean. Ah, it's a
unknown
wonder,
wonder,
Slavoj Žižek
it's a guy, Italian guy who is arrested to Auschwitz and there is a fat ugly lady, his Kapo, and he tries to seduce her. That's a, um, yes, I do know that movie, yeah. Giancarlo Giannini play.
it's a guy, Italian guy who is arrested to Auschwitz and there is a fat ugly lady, his Kapo, and he tries to seduce her. That's a, um, yes, I do know that movie, yeah. Giancarlo Giannini play.
unknown
Yes, yes, yes. I I it's got Seven,
Yes, yes, yes. I I it's got Seven,
Slavoj Žižek
Seven Beauties. Seven Beauties, yeah, yeah. You know why because when things are really desperate, you're close to a breakdown, the only thing that works is comedy, not comedy where you laugh like crazy, but comedy which precisely accounts for total absurdity of the situation. I even spoke with a specialist in Primo Levi and he agreed with me if you look his If This Is a Man, there are two, three scenes there which portray the utmost horror. Yes. But it's like a comedy. Yes, totally. For example, you remember, it always did strike me that scene of so-called, uh, uh, uh, when they checked you once every two months, mhm, selekcja,
Seven Beauties. Seven Beauties, yeah, yeah. You know why because when things are really desperate, you're close to a breakdown, the only thing that works is comedy, not comedy where you laugh like crazy, but comedy which precisely accounts for total absurdity of the situation. I even spoke with a specialist in Primo Levi and he agreed with me if you look his If This Is a Man, there are two, three scenes there which portray the utmost horror. Yes. But it's like a comedy. Yes, totally. For example, you remember, it always did strike me that scene of so-called, uh, uh, uh, when they checked you once every two months, mhm, selekcja,
unknown
Polish word they use selection. Okay.
Polish word they use selection. Okay.
Slavoj Žižek
The whole scene is there was an SS doctor with a list, your number, not name was called and you had to run naked in front of him. He observed you for a split of a second and then he puts into a list like to be burned or to allowed to work more. Okay, the way Primo Levi describes it, there is a, you know, a comedy in how prisoners just before running, they were exchanging these desperate advices like because the point was to appear as healthy as possible, to pinch your lips so that they are more red and so on. It was a crazy, utterly desperate comedy and with and so you see my point is when things are really terrifying, it's another type of totally desperate comedy that enters. Well, that's why I want to ask you because I think it's interesting that you said Stalinism was a funnier system than Nazism, but Nazism because it was perhaps so evil, I mean this is up to you, produced, produced so much great comedy against Nazism. You know why, I will tell you why, I will tell you why because Stalinism, what makes it comic are the trials, the trials are comic because they are a totally crazy spectacle taken serious by nobody and so on and so on. That was the horror of it,
The whole scene is there was an SS doctor with a list, your number, not name was called and you had to run naked in front of him. He observed you for a split of a second and then he puts into a list like to be burned or to allowed to work more. Okay, the way Primo Levi describes it, there is a, you know, a comedy in how prisoners just before running, they were exchanging these desperate advices like because the point was to appear as healthy as possible, to pinch your lips so that they are more red and so on. It was a crazy, utterly desperate comedy and with and so you see my point is when things are really terrifying, it's another type of totally desperate comedy that enters. Well, that's why I want to ask you because I think it's interesting that you said Stalinism was a funnier system than Nazism, but Nazism because it was perhaps so evil, I mean this is up to you, produced, produced so much great comedy against Nazism. You know why, I will tell you why, I will tell you why because Stalinism, what makes it comic are the trials, the trials are comic because they are a totally crazy spectacle taken serious by nobody and so on and so on. That was the horror of it,
unknown
yes. But can I give you maybe I
yes. But can I give you maybe I
Slavoj Žižek
will tell you another example of how you can survive only through comedy. You know years ago all the newspapers were full of it, the Serb massacre in Srebrenica, the Bosnian village. A friend of mine from Sarajevo, who is a sociologist of language, told me that the surviving community there, people did survive, some people there.
will tell you another example of how you can survive only through comedy. You know years ago all the newspapers were full of it, the Serb massacre in Srebrenica, the Bosnian village. A friend of mine from Sarajevo, who is a sociologist of language, told me that the surviving community there, people did survive, some people there.
unknown
Hold on one second, Ken, let, let this guy, mhm, mhm.
Hold on one second, Ken, let, let this guy, mhm, mhm.
Slavoj Žižek
Now I have, I have this wonderful idea that, you know, you are not a Stalinist, enemies set this to ruin our.
Now I have, I have this wonderful idea that, you know, you are not a Stalinist, enemies set this to ruin our.
unknown
Yes, this is purposeful, this
Yes, this is purposeful, this
Slavoj Žižek
is sabotage. Who is it, the KGB guy? Yeah, yeah.
is sabotage. Who is it, the KGB guy? Yeah, yeah.
unknown
Ask him question, he. We're going to reveal that at the end of the interview. We're
Ask him question, he. We're going to reveal that at the end of the interview. We're
Slavoj Žižek
going to turn around and pull the. Let me go on. Yes, please. You know that they developed, survivors of Srebrenica, a very sarcastic humor set of jokes, not other Bosnians about them, they themselves. Right. For example, it's so tragic, for example, you have to know to understand this one how in ex-Yugoslavia, even in Europe it was common, when you went to the butcher to buy some beef and so on, usually we cooked it and made a soup, okay, first and then you eat the the meat. But the soup is better if you put some bones into it. So when you say one pound of good beef, please, the butcher usually asks you with or without bones, no? Okay, so the joke is this one: a survivor from Srebrenica goes to Germany to work, earns some money and returns and said oh my God, I heard the prices are good, now that Srebrenica is free again, I want to, I want to maybe buy a parcel here, no, to build a house, and asks a friend what are the prices here? And the friend of course predictably answers, it depends, do you want a parcel with or without bones, you know, of the. Right, right. But
going to turn around and pull the. Let me go on. Yes, please. You know that they developed, survivors of Srebrenica, a very sarcastic humor set of jokes, not other Bosnians about them, they themselves. Right. For example, it's so tragic, for example, you have to know to understand this one how in ex-Yugoslavia, even in Europe it was common, when you went to the butcher to buy some beef and so on, usually we cooked it and made a soup, okay, first and then you eat the the meat. But the soup is better if you put some bones into it. So when you say one pound of good beef, please, the butcher usually asks you with or without bones, no? Okay, so the joke is this one: a survivor from Srebrenica goes to Germany to work, earns some money and returns and said oh my God, I heard the prices are good, now that Srebrenica is free again, I want to, I want to maybe buy a parcel here, no, to build a house, and asks a friend what are the prices here? And the friend of course predictably answers, it depends, do you want a parcel with or without bones, you know, of the. Right, right. But
unknown
they are doing this, others
they are doing this, others
Slavoj Žižek
are not making fun at them. Why? Not because they they don't think it was serious. Yes. It is still too traumatic for them to take it as a tragedy. Maybe it's one of the reasons also why and Primo Levi again got it somewhere, why only in the six, okay there are other geopolitical reasons, but I think this is why the Jews it took them almost years to be able to develop Holocaust stories, history serious. When it's too traumatic you cannot do it. So again the citizens of Srebrenica this is immediate life for them there. Right. They only can do it in a comedy. Again that's crucial for me, comedy is not just lighter. When things go absolutely tragic, yes, when you no longer can play this role I am here my thing is down, no, some type of very weird comedy returns. It's interesting how Americans uh really used Nazism for humor almost immediately from To Be or Not to Be, the Jack Benny movie, to the Producers. Uh it seems like Americans have constantly in order to sort of defuse the evil or the overwhelmingness of it have turned and made a lot of great comedy at the expense of Nazism. Yeah but this is for me like if you ask me, yes, I am. First Lubitsch should be rehabilitated. Okay. Like to be put in one of these great series from I don't know books are constantly written about Hitchcock and so
are not making fun at them. Why? Not because they they don't think it was serious. Yes. It is still too traumatic for them to take it as a tragedy. Maybe it's one of the reasons also why and Primo Levi again got it somewhere, why only in the six, okay there are other geopolitical reasons, but I think this is why the Jews it took them almost years to be able to develop Holocaust stories, history serious. When it's too traumatic you cannot do it. So again the citizens of Srebrenica this is immediate life for them there. Right. They only can do it in a comedy. Again that's crucial for me, comedy is not just lighter. When things go absolutely tragic, yes, when you no longer can play this role I am here my thing is down, no, some type of very weird comedy returns. It's interesting how Americans uh really used Nazism for humor almost immediately from To Be or Not to Be, the Jack Benny movie, to the Producers. Uh it seems like Americans have constantly in order to sort of defuse the evil or the overwhelmingness of it have turned and made a lot of great comedy at the expense of Nazism. Yeah but this is for me like if you ask me, yes, I am. First Lubitsch should be rehabilitated. Okay. Like to be put in one of these great series from I don't know books are constantly written about Hitchcock and so
unknown
on, and with my friends we even try to do now we will organize in Berlin a conference on Lubitsch. Don't you think that the only serious debate is which one is the greatest, To Be or Not to Be or or Trouble in Paradise? Right. These are just breathtaking movies I think. Yes, yes, yes. And you know which is philosophically the crucial
on, and with my friends we even try to do now we will organize in Berlin a conference on Lubitsch. Don't you think that the only serious debate is which one is the greatest, To Be or Not to Be or or Trouble in Paradise? Right. These are just breathtaking movies I think. Yes, yes, yes. And you know which is philosophically the crucial
unknown
part, you know what's so
part, you know what's so
Slavoj Žižek
important in To Be or Not to Be, that Nazis are not simply portrayed in the standard Hollywood way as the stupid clumsy idiots. Some of the funniest replies are from Nazi guys. Absolutely. You remember when Jack Benny answers the Nazi officer, did you hear about that great Polish actor? You know what he answers? Tell me. Yes I did, he is doing to Shakespeare what we are now doing to Poland and so on. This was so, this was the part which was almost censored there although, and I agree with you, this was not simply taking it easy and so on. It was that's how you confront it, it was. You know and here, would you agree or not, here it's for me, I will even offer you a solution, a mistake for me or shortcoming of of who did sorry, La vita bella, Benigni. Uh, Benigni. It's good to make a comedy, but then this comedy towards the end passes into sentimental tragedy. Yes, it does. It's a weak because you know why, the whole genre changes. Instead of authentic Holocaust horror, mhm, we get then of the hero Benigni this kind of a typical comical hero who whatever troubles are, you know he will survive. You can count he will but at the end when he doesn't survive you get into melodrama. You know at the end when his son tells in retroactively oh I know, would you agree or not, how I would change the ending on the movie. It would be more comical but at the same time much more shattering. At the end the boy learns that his father just sacrificed himself, his father as we all know presented him a fake story to endure the horror there, that this is not really a camp, it's just a big competition, right, right, along that Larry David where he got into trouble who is the true survivor of the game. Right, right. That is the question. Yeah, yeah. and that they can leave at any point they want and so on and so on. What do you think about just this tight small change? At the very end when when the hero Benigni is to be shot, his son somehow lets him know that he knew it all the time but played the same game for him. He knew it all the time that it's really concentration camp, but he knew that if he lets him know his father that he knows it, it would be very traumatic for his father like I didn't protect really my son. And that open situation where they both discovered that they played a game. Far more poignant and far more authentic, more comical but far more poignant. I agree, I agree. That sentimentality at the end totally. Yes, it's one more layer also. Yeah, it gives it a little bit more depth than just a kind of simple melodramatic solution. So I do like that very much. Are you familiar with the Jerry Lewis Holocaust movie, The Day the Clown Cried, the unfinished movie that
important in To Be or Not to Be, that Nazis are not simply portrayed in the standard Hollywood way as the stupid clumsy idiots. Some of the funniest replies are from Nazi guys. Absolutely. You remember when Jack Benny answers the Nazi officer, did you hear about that great Polish actor? You know what he answers? Tell me. Yes I did, he is doing to Shakespeare what we are now doing to Poland and so on. This was so, this was the part which was almost censored there although, and I agree with you, this was not simply taking it easy and so on. It was that's how you confront it, it was. You know and here, would you agree or not, here it's for me, I will even offer you a solution, a mistake for me or shortcoming of of who did sorry, La vita bella, Benigni. Uh, Benigni. It's good to make a comedy, but then this comedy towards the end passes into sentimental tragedy. Yes, it does. It's a weak because you know why, the whole genre changes. Instead of authentic Holocaust horror, mhm, we get then of the hero Benigni this kind of a typical comical hero who whatever troubles are, you know he will survive. You can count he will but at the end when he doesn't survive you get into melodrama. You know at the end when his son tells in retroactively oh I know, would you agree or not, how I would change the ending on the movie. It would be more comical but at the same time much more shattering. At the end the boy learns that his father just sacrificed himself, his father as we all know presented him a fake story to endure the horror there, that this is not really a camp, it's just a big competition, right, right, along that Larry David where he got into trouble who is the true survivor of the game. Right, right. That is the question. Yeah, yeah. and that they can leave at any point they want and so on and so on. What do you think about just this tight small change? At the very end when when the hero Benigni is to be shot, his son somehow lets him know that he knew it all the time but played the same game for him. He knew it all the time that it's really concentration camp, but he knew that if he lets him know his father that he knows it, it would be very traumatic for his father like I didn't protect really my son. And that open situation where they both discovered that they played a game. Far more poignant and far more authentic, more comical but far more poignant. I agree, I agree. That sentimentality at the end totally. Yes, it's one more layer also. Yeah, it gives it a little bit more depth than just a kind of simple melodramatic solution. So I do like that very much. Are you familiar with the Jerry Lewis Holocaust movie, The Day the Clown Cried, the unfinished movie that
unknown
he made? I was told that it's excellent unfortunately, okay I will now you don't use this if you want it's on your danger, can I get it on Pirate Bay? It's I think that's you you can get scenes from it. I don't think the whole thing is put together yet in a way that's
he made? I was told that it's excellent unfortunately, okay I will now you don't use this if you want it's on your danger, can I get it on Pirate Bay? It's I think that's you you can get scenes from it. I don't think the whole thing is put together yet in a way that's
Slavoj Žižek
releasable. But he you know I've seen clips from it and it's Jerry Lewis, he's wearing a the kind of pajamas that
releasable. But he you know I've seen clips from it and it's Jerry Lewis, he's wearing a the kind of pajamas that
unknown
they had in the Holocaust but with patent leather shoes. Oh my God, yeah. and you know it's Jerry Lewis playing this Holocaust clown, a Jew who is leading the children into the into the ovens, you know. Oh my God, yeah. And and so he's trying to balance the Jerry Lewis goofiness, the silliness with the incredible seriousness of
they had in the Holocaust but with patent leather shoes. Oh my God, yeah. and you know it's Jerry Lewis playing this Holocaust clown, a Jew who is leading the children into the into the ovens, you know. Oh my God, yeah. And and so he's trying to balance the Jerry Lewis goofiness, the silliness with the incredible seriousness of
Slavoj Žižek
of trying
of trying
unknown
to lead the children. Yeah but at some point again that's that's the only way to do it. Yeah, yeah. No, that's right.
to lead the children. Yeah but at some point again that's that's the only way to do it. Yeah, yeah. No, that's right.
Slavoj Žižek
It
It
unknown
might be a masterpiece that's kind of you know. Yeah, yeah. And
might be a masterpiece that's kind of you know. Yeah, yeah. And
Slavoj Žižek
you know this is what I was a little bit disturbed with in Schindler's List. Yes. It include you know now it's getting more complex but the early movies of of Schindler, sorry, of Spielberg where all a variation of this Oedipal story, bad father grows up to be a good father. Right. Even E.T., it's absolutely crucial, people don't notice this that at the beginning where E.T. appears, it's a fatherless family. You know, you learn father run away with a younger woman to Mexico. And then I think the way to really read the movie is that E.T. is basically how do you call it, a matchmaker, a mediator. All other are evil, you remember, one scientist is a good one. In the final scene where E.T. goes home, he is already holding his hand around the mother. So the family is reconstructed so E.T. can go home. You have the the you have and I think unfortunately it's similar with Schindler's List where the bad father, that Schindler, yeah, you know grows up, discovers himself as a good guy, saving the Jews and so on. And you know which is the most although it's nicely made, even his mid-period movie War of the Worlds. Yes. Forget about aliens, it's basically Tom Cruise, at the beginning bad father, he saves his children and so on and so on. And that kind of a that kind of a ruins it for me if if you.
you know this is what I was a little bit disturbed with in Schindler's List. Yes. It include you know now it's getting more complex but the early movies of of Schindler, sorry, of Spielberg where all a variation of this Oedipal story, bad father grows up to be a good father. Right. Even E.T., it's absolutely crucial, people don't notice this that at the beginning where E.T. appears, it's a fatherless family. You know, you learn father run away with a younger woman to Mexico. And then I think the way to really read the movie is that E.T. is basically how do you call it, a matchmaker, a mediator. All other are evil, you remember, one scientist is a good one. In the final scene where E.T. goes home, he is already holding his hand around the mother. So the family is reconstructed so E.T. can go home. You have the the you have and I think unfortunately it's similar with Schindler's List where the bad father, that Schindler, yeah, you know grows up, discovers himself as a good guy, saving the Jews and so on. And you know which is the most although it's nicely made, even his mid-period movie War of the Worlds. Yes. Forget about aliens, it's basically Tom Cruise, at the beginning bad father, he saves his children and so on and so on. And that kind of a that kind of a ruins it for me if if you.
unknown
I so but also it's kind of interesting, I mean this is where we're digressing a little bit here but maybe Spielberg, you know Spielberg was really raised by his mother and his father really wasn't very present. I didn't know this, yeah. and I wonder if that kind of that gets his version of an autobiographical film anyway. Maybe, but
I so but also it's kind of interesting, I mean this is where we're digressing a little bit here but maybe Spielberg, you know Spielberg was really raised by his mother and his father really wasn't very present. I didn't know this, yeah. and I wonder if that kind of that gets his version of an autobiographical film anyway. Maybe, but
Slavoj Žižek
it's important thing that father can be absent, but we learn this from psychoanalysis
it's important thing that father can be absent, but we learn this from psychoanalysis
unknown
maybe I don't know,
maybe I don't know,
Slavoj Žižek
that the point is not is father there or not, but how the mother refers to father. Yeah. Like is the father a kind of referent point, respectful presence for the mother? And here things go get very complex if you ask me. For example, I from what I know from my gay friends, I'm tempted to say that among many gay couples or for gay people, often mother plays the role of the father. So there are two boys but woman is there as the third point of as the third point of authority and so on and so on. It gets much more complex, no? Yes, yes. All right, so let's let's do okay let's do it properly. Yeah, no we're doing good, we're doing great. This is all. Sorry, my evil, just to let you know, I'm so tempted to you know like when you walk here to so that I will not do it but just let I warn you, my desire is all the time should I put something that you will slip or. I'm I'm evil whatever. No, no, no. it's good, that's good. I don't mind that at all. So, let okay let's begin. No, no, no, we have we've begun. We're deep into it man. Um, but so let's let's
that the point is not is father there or not, but how the mother refers to father. Yeah. Like is the father a kind of referent point, respectful presence for the mother? And here things go get very complex if you ask me. For example, I from what I know from my gay friends, I'm tempted to say that among many gay couples or for gay people, often mother plays the role of the father. So there are two boys but woman is there as the third point of as the third point of authority and so on and so on. It gets much more complex, no? Yes, yes. All right, so let's let's do okay let's do it properly. Yeah, no we're doing good, we're doing great. This is all. Sorry, my evil, just to let you know, I'm so tempted to you know like when you walk here to so that I will not do it but just let I warn you, my desire is all the time should I put something that you will slip or. I'm I'm evil whatever. No, no, no. it's good, that's good. I don't mind that at all. So, let okay let's begin. No, no, no, we have we've begun. We're deep into it man. Um, but so let's let's
unknown
stay on the Nazi thing for a second because do you think that when humor is used as a survival tool, like say what's your opinion of the
stay on the Nazi thing for a second because do you think that when humor is used as a survival tool, like say what's your opinion of the
Slavoj Žižek
Producers for instance? Uh it takes place many years after the, you know it was made many. No, I will tell you something let's skip this one which will horrify you. Okay. By sheer mistake, everybody knows it in my country I haven't seen the Producers. You haven't seen it? Okay. I'm so sorry. That's okay, no that's good. That's
Producers for instance? Uh it takes place many years after the, you know it was made many. No, I will tell you something let's skip this one which will horrify you. Okay. By sheer mistake, everybody knows it in my country I haven't seen the Producers. You haven't seen it? Okay. I'm so sorry. That's okay, no that's good. That's
unknown
all right. Um. It happens you know. we can't all see
all right. Um. It happens you know. we can't all see
Slavoj Žižek
everything. You've seen almost everything. No, I bluff! In my book Enjoy Your Symptom! I have a page analysis of Rossellini. Right. When I wrote that, I haven't seen any of the movies. Afterwards I was kind of convinced by my own analysis, I've seen them and I think it was a mistake, they are not as good as I thought. Sometimes it's better to stick to second hand. Isn't this
everything. You've seen almost everything. No, I bluff! In my book Enjoy Your Symptom! I have a page analysis of Rossellini. Right. When I wrote that, I haven't seen any of the movies. Afterwards I was kind of convinced by my own analysis, I've seen them and I think it was a mistake, they are not as good as I thought. Sometimes it's better to stick to second hand. Isn't this
unknown
often one of the sad. Like books can be like that also, right? It's better to not read the books sometimes and just think
often one of the sad. Like books can be like that also, right? It's better to not read the books sometimes and just think
Slavoj Žižek
you've read the books. Ah, but I have another now we come to this more mystical comical territory. Right. I made one remark to a secretary of Doctor of the writer and he told this to Doctor of himself who was mad at me. I have this strange experience of what was that oh not it has gate in the title with Nicole Kidman, no?
you've read the books. Ah, but I have another now we come to this more mystical comical territory. Right. I made one remark to a secretary of Doctor of the writer and he told this to Doctor of himself who was mad at me. I have this strange experience of what was that oh not it has gate in the title with Nicole Kidman, no?
unknown
Oh right, right. Billy Bathgate.
Oh right, right. Billy Bathgate.
Slavoj Žižek
Billy Bathgate! Let me tell you something, first I saw the movie and I thought, okay, it's not a good movie, but you can feel the presence of a larger better work in the background. Yes. So probably they just didn't capture properly the spirit of the novel. The novel must be the real thing. Then I read the novel, I was even more disappointed and I developed a wonderful theory that you have the novel the film they are both failures but in between the repetition of the novel in the film retroactively produces a specter of a truly great work. Only through the repetition in this in and out I still I still stick to this analysis. So I don't have these prejudices which are usually for example with Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Yes, yes. A cult of my friends it is the original from Did you see the Philip Kaufman version by by Donald Sutherland? I did, I did. I liked it better. I like it better and people treat me as a crazy commercialized idiot or what. No, I think it was more political. The physical process, all those all those sleazy sounds how the aliens are producing it's a it's a better movie I mean and also as you said, I like you know I will tell you a comical detail. Yes, please. You know how at the end the you learn that people who are already possessed by aliens they are trained I don't know how that let's say I'm already possessed you are still full human and when I see you I say bleeh-bleeh some sound like this. This was in my friend circle for months afterwards when we met on the street bleeh-bleeh we were greeting each other
Billy Bathgate! Let me tell you something, first I saw the movie and I thought, okay, it's not a good movie, but you can feel the presence of a larger better work in the background. Yes. So probably they just didn't capture properly the spirit of the novel. The novel must be the real thing. Then I read the novel, I was even more disappointed and I developed a wonderful theory that you have the novel the film they are both failures but in between the repetition of the novel in the film retroactively produces a specter of a truly great work. Only through the repetition in this in and out I still I still stick to this analysis. So I don't have these prejudices which are usually for example with Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Yes, yes. A cult of my friends it is the original from Did you see the Philip Kaufman version by by Donald Sutherland? I did, I did. I liked it better. I like it better and people treat me as a crazy commercialized idiot or what. No, I think it was more political. The physical process, all those all those sleazy sounds how the aliens are producing it's a it's a better movie I mean and also as you said, I like you know I will tell you a comical detail. Yes, please. You know how at the end the you learn that people who are already possessed by aliens they are trained I don't know how that let's say I'm already possessed you are still full human and when I see you I say bleeh-bleeh some sound like this. This was in my friend circle for months afterwards when we met on the street bleeh-bleeh we were greeting each other
unknown
in that. That's great, that's great. because we're all zombies ultimately.
in that. That's great, that's great. because we're all zombies ultimately.
Slavoj Žižek
We are absolutely. We are all
We are absolutely. We are all
unknown
from a pod of some kind.
from a pod of some kind.
Slavoj Žižek
That's why that's how I am rereading it's not enough of a comedy and most of my friends hate Blade Runner Okay, I'm not saying it's a great movie but it has many wonderful detailed observations. For example that let's call it in Marxist terms secondary contradiction between the state, Robin Wright, which is strict apartheid, and big corporation, Wallace, Jared Leto, he is a wonderful key figure with those mechanic eyes already. He is this absolute capitalist drive which which doesn't care we can all be replicants or whatever. This is a wonderful point then it's a point of genius that. You saw the movie? No I haven't seen it. Oh my God, okay let's drop it, it's too much. No, no, please go on. No, no because okay no, no it will bring us to. I'm a big Philip, I'm a big Philip K. Dick fan so I know, you know I know Blade Runner I know the book that it came from, but I haven't seen the new movie.
That's why that's how I am rereading it's not enough of a comedy and most of my friends hate Blade Runner Okay, I'm not saying it's a great movie but it has many wonderful detailed observations. For example that let's call it in Marxist terms secondary contradiction between the state, Robin Wright, which is strict apartheid, and big corporation, Wallace, Jared Leto, he is a wonderful key figure with those mechanic eyes already. He is this absolute capitalist drive which which doesn't care we can all be replicants or whatever. This is a wonderful point then it's a point of genius that. You saw the movie? No I haven't seen it. Oh my God, okay let's drop it, it's too much. No, no, please go on. No, no because okay no, no it will bring us to. I'm a big Philip, I'm a big Philip K. Dick fan so I know, you know I know Blade Runner I know the book that it came from, but I haven't seen the new movie.
unknown
You
You
Slavoj Žižek
know which I like pretty much because I am such a fan of alternate histories especially and all my Jewish friends are the same. If you want comedy, once I was sitting in Jerusalem with a couple of my Jewish friends and we were debating this eternal historian's obsession. What big mistake did Hitler make not to win? Yes. And automatically my Jewish friends, half of their parents or I mean relatives were killed in Auschwitz and so on. Sure. We all found ourselves in a situation of arguing for Hitler, idiot, why didn't he do this, why didn't he do this, you know. That's great. And the result even historians are coming to this result. It's not that he shouldn't have attacked Soviet Union. Right. He should do it a year later, Hitler's big mistake was he was obsessed with this Napoleon idea of Russia. He should have more helped Mussolini take Egypt. Ha! There then Egypt, this would force Turkey to join his side and he would take the Middle East. India would be squashed between Germany in Iran there and and Japan on the other side. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then one year later he would have been in a much better position together with Japanese to attack Russia. This is even almost the
know which I like pretty much because I am such a fan of alternate histories especially and all my Jewish friends are the same. If you want comedy, once I was sitting in Jerusalem with a couple of my Jewish friends and we were debating this eternal historian's obsession. What big mistake did Hitler make not to win? Yes. And automatically my Jewish friends, half of their parents or I mean relatives were killed in Auschwitz and so on. Sure. We all found ourselves in a situation of arguing for Hitler, idiot, why didn't he do this, why didn't he do this, you know. That's great. And the result even historians are coming to this result. It's not that he shouldn't have attacked Soviet Union. Right. He should do it a year later, Hitler's big mistake was he was obsessed with this Napoleon idea of Russia. He should have more helped Mussolini take Egypt. Ha! There then Egypt, this would force Turkey to join his side and he would take the Middle East. India would be squashed between Germany in Iran there and and Japan on the other side. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then one year later he would have been in a much better position together with Japanese to attack Russia. This is even almost the
unknown
main. Yeah that's a really interesting,
main. Yeah that's a really interesting,
Slavoj Žižek
no but what shocked me is again how all my idiot, why didn't he do this, why didn't he do this. It's
no but what shocked me is again how all my idiot, why didn't he do this, why didn't he do this. It's
unknown
like talking about football at a certain point.
like talking about football at a certain point.
Slavoj Žižek
Yeah. It's really is his handicap. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know another point of it's not comedy but that's why I don't like them. I'm too stupid you have to have quick reflexes. Are people, okay it's fashionable to say today and you would agree earning your bread that way that if anything great is happening today, the the to put it in Hegelian idealist terms the World Spirit is moving from cinema to TV series. Yes. Great things are happening there. Yes. and TV series are themselves changing. It's no longer every week Thursday evening we sit. Right. Already I read somewhere the majority of people download the whole season and then you spend a week okay. But people underestimate the incredible not only financial strength but even I would not say artistic but narrative power of video games. You know that three-four years ago they al they started to turn around more money than movies and TV combined. Yes, right. and and what interests me is this one, how a certain structure of subjectivity, which is again that of comedies, this comical undeath that we know for example already from Tom and Jerry and cartoons, you know, you're Tom I'm Jerry whatever. I run over you with with a with a with a truck, I slice you in pieces, no problem, in the next scene we start again. The first to formulate this undeath was Marquis de Sade. This is what Lacan and other noticed if you take Juliette or whatever. The beautiful girl is tortured all the time but strangely in the next scene she appears again in all her beauty and so on, you know? And so incidentally you have the same circular time where it's kind of to put it in technical terms oral anal universe with no Oedipal castration death. You find it also in standard hardcore pornography. Okay. You know because you noticed how okay they do it, erection, you have to see and then they never take a moment to use the Kleenex, to wipe the sperm, it just goes endlessly on. What I'm saying is that it's exactly the same principle in video games usually, no? You have ten lives you die you start again and I think it's something extremely interesting in this new sense of temporality where the time is circular. Yes. Death is just an event which gives you a new lease on life and so on. And I think that a sociologist friend of mine developed how this same circular temporality also determines it's not just fiction our real life. Like he noticed how love affairs today have the same structure, you don't commit yourself fully. I try, sorry I don't want now to be lynched, I don't want to be, you know the nicest dirty remark that somebody gave me because not in the sense of harassment but physically, I don't care how I'm dressed with this, you know it's no longer, you know some idiots called me ten years ago Borat of philosophy. Right, I've seen that. Now I was called Harvey Weinstein of philosophy! I know, that's the that's the latest! So again what in real, you know you treat your love commitments the same way. I try it with you, it doesn't go, okay I return to zero, I make it again. Yes, yes. And this I and it's not necessary to do it at this primitive level. For example the movie by the same guy Denis Villeneuve, his previous modest hit does go in a very refined way this circularity, Arrival. Right, right, right. So I think this is what interests me as a philosopher. This circular structure new experience of time where it's no longer this linear temporality but we can go back to zero point and start and this also prevents tragedy, the structure in some sense becomes comic. Right,
Yeah. It's really is his handicap. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know another point of it's not comedy but that's why I don't like them. I'm too stupid you have to have quick reflexes. Are people, okay it's fashionable to say today and you would agree earning your bread that way that if anything great is happening today, the the to put it in Hegelian idealist terms the World Spirit is moving from cinema to TV series. Yes. Great things are happening there. Yes. and TV series are themselves changing. It's no longer every week Thursday evening we sit. Right. Already I read somewhere the majority of people download the whole season and then you spend a week okay. But people underestimate the incredible not only financial strength but even I would not say artistic but narrative power of video games. You know that three-four years ago they al they started to turn around more money than movies and TV combined. Yes, right. and and what interests me is this one, how a certain structure of subjectivity, which is again that of comedies, this comical undeath that we know for example already from Tom and Jerry and cartoons, you know, you're Tom I'm Jerry whatever. I run over you with with a with a with a truck, I slice you in pieces, no problem, in the next scene we start again. The first to formulate this undeath was Marquis de Sade. This is what Lacan and other noticed if you take Juliette or whatever. The beautiful girl is tortured all the time but strangely in the next scene she appears again in all her beauty and so on, you know? And so incidentally you have the same circular time where it's kind of to put it in technical terms oral anal universe with no Oedipal castration death. You find it also in standard hardcore pornography. Okay. You know because you noticed how okay they do it, erection, you have to see and then they never take a moment to use the Kleenex, to wipe the sperm, it just goes endlessly on. What I'm saying is that it's exactly the same principle in video games usually, no? You have ten lives you die you start again and I think it's something extremely interesting in this new sense of temporality where the time is circular. Yes. Death is just an event which gives you a new lease on life and so on. And I think that a sociologist friend of mine developed how this same circular temporality also determines it's not just fiction our real life. Like he noticed how love affairs today have the same structure, you don't commit yourself fully. I try, sorry I don't want now to be lynched, I don't want to be, you know the nicest dirty remark that somebody gave me because not in the sense of harassment but physically, I don't care how I'm dressed with this, you know it's no longer, you know some idiots called me ten years ago Borat of philosophy. Right, I've seen that. Now I was called Harvey Weinstein of philosophy! I know, that's the that's the latest! So again what in real, you know you treat your love commitments the same way. I try it with you, it doesn't go, okay I return to zero, I make it again. Yes, yes. And this I and it's not necessary to do it at this primitive level. For example the movie by the same guy Denis Villeneuve, his previous modest hit does go in a very refined way this circularity, Arrival. Right, right, right. So I think this is what interests me as a philosopher. This circular structure new experience of time where it's no longer this linear temporality but we can go back to zero point and start and this also prevents tragedy, the structure in some sense becomes comic. Right,
unknown
because it always begins again.
because it always begins again.
Slavoj Žižek
Yeah, it always begins again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The ending isn't really the ending. Yeah, yeah. It's Tom and Jerry and so on. How
Yeah, it always begins again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The ending isn't really the ending. Yeah, yeah. It's Tom and Jerry and so on. How
unknown
do you feel then about I mean you talking about TV series and the fact that people don't watch live TV so much and there's not that appointment viewing, but you can tape it all, binge view it. But what about the next level of technology, the social media which is allowing a lot of so-called comedians to bypass even the mainstream media in order to put their their message out? And a lot of that is actually of the right wing is using that.
do you feel then about I mean you talking about TV series and the fact that people don't watch live TV so much and there's not that appointment viewing, but you can tape it all, binge view it. But what about the next level of technology, the social media which is allowing a lot of so-called comedians to bypass even the mainstream media in order to put their their message out? And a lot of that is actually of the right wing is using that.
Slavoj Žižek
That's what I wanted to tell you. I'm not, this here we see how the old liberal left who put such high hopes, you know, no longer mediated by some alienated central agency, this multiple communication. Well, the new right is much better at it. But what worries me more is that in some sense I like a certain degree of centralization not in a but in the sense of there is a big public space and it matters that something appears there. Now if we get this dispersion all of us has our own media and so on, this will contribute to this personalization, dispersion and so on. So I I'm not so glad about it, which is why okay we can maybe change the canon but I'm basically for canon. It should be less racist and so on, but you know the canon has a function to give you certain central points of reference. If you lose this we enter a confused universe where people can be much more easily manipulated and so on. Yes, yes. That's that's great. I I wonder. But speaking about humor nonetheless let's go on to more interesting points. Because we already talk about this on the phone. My basic point about humor especially political humor is that it's a very ambiguous thing. I know very well how it has emancipatory liberating side. I'm not only talking about at this stupid level when people laugh, they feel more relaxed, easier, but at a more radical level. For example that's for me the problem with political correctness. Let's say we come from different cultures. It doesn't matter which degree of difference. And first we treat each other respectfully, no, and it's this horrible politically correct game, you know, like, oh what is your food, oh what is your culture, your stupid folkloric dances or you. This is just polite distance. Okay. But the true miracle comes where we suddenly really connect. And I claim it can only be done through a slight exchange of obscenity. This happened to me in China where I was debating with some philosophers, it was all this respectful polite, then I risked it and made a slight dirty joke and so on. And they started it totally changed the atmosphere. So on the one hand, on the one hand I'm well aware of this liberating aspect of humor even and especially obscene humor. But I think this is not all. Because one of my founding epiphany experiences is this: I remember in late 70s early 80s when politics became a little bit more open in ex-Yugoslavia, so there were small dissident gatherings. It was a nice example of how obscene humor can be used in the service of power. We were at the dissident gathering where some dissident who was imprisoned reported in a very tragic voice of his fate. And then a guy of whom we discovered later that he was a state provocateur, you know what he did? Not the official Stalinist way, how dare you talk like this, we live in socialist democracy, but like when he was saying something this guy through this pure obscenities he tried to ruin the performance. Or another of his strategies was, but what do you want? All politics is a whore, it's all corruption, you know this total dismissal and so on. So my favorite story here is the following one. First I thought it's only in my country, but then I discovered when I visited Russia, Poland, Czech Republic, that they had the same myth in all these countries. That there was an ultra-secret department of secret police where they were fabricating political jokes not against the enemy, anti-imperialist, against the regime, because they make a simple calculation. People are frustrated. If you feed them with the right jokes they will feel oh but we did strike back and so on, and there will be a lot less of more dangerous, brutal because you know the meaning of political joke is not only they are stupid those in power but let's make fun of them, who cares, it doesn't exactly incite to activity. So although I think this was not true, it was never proven, and and also it's interestingly theoretically wrong because although jokes can be fabricated, but it's interesting how you should never present a joke as your invention. The formula is I heard this joke or whatever. Yes, that's true. You never. This is why this is the most convincing theory. You know there is a story by Isaac Asimov, not my favorite sci-fi writer, but it's nice short story called Jokester. Uh-huh. Where some linguist claim that this mystical moment when God created humans, out of apes made them, was by telling them a joke. That they and they try to reconstruct that original joke whatever. So what I'm saying is that I know that in Stalinism okay maybe there are extreme points where this no longer works, but at least in everyday socialism, yes, jokes in Eastern Europe absolutely played a positive role. Yes. Positive in the sense of ultimately allowing the regime to function even better. And it's not only this. The most interesting part was for me the last years of socialism when Communists saw the writing on the wall, it's over. Literally the writing on the Berlin Wall. Almost literally, yeah. So to save themselves in Yugoslavia, which was a little bit more liberal, it's wonderful detail. They even started at political gatherings to tell jokes about themselves to make them popular and some of them were even not so bad like I remember a famous Croat, big Communist politician, was asked by a journalist how did your trip to Rome, state trip went? And he even made a good series of jokes of how stupid he is. You know, they also have in English in Europe chapel means chapel, Sistine Chapel, but it also means capella like the small the small band that plays in a cafeteria. And he said, it was all confusion. I was told to go and see Sistine Chapel, then I checked in all restaurants Sistine Chapel played nowhere. Then I was told to go and see Figaro's wedding, I checked all the churches, nowhere was Figaro and you know it went on like four, five. But isn't wasn't this a weird, a weird situation when like those in power themselves got the point and used these jokes to. Yes. And I think if you ask me I'm not kidding here that although again I am ambiguous here, you definitely have this socially constructive role of jokes, nonetheless they were maybe in the same way as I said what are the greatest achievements doctors' jokes and so on of American culture, maybe the greatest cultural loss of Eastern Europe of the fall of communism was the disappearance of good political jokes if you ask me. Wait, you're saying that the government itself were the were the perpetrators of the jokes on themselves in order to make. This was at the end only, at the end only. So the oppressor, that's what I wanted to ask you about the oppressor versus the
That's what I wanted to tell you. I'm not, this here we see how the old liberal left who put such high hopes, you know, no longer mediated by some alienated central agency, this multiple communication. Well, the new right is much better at it. But what worries me more is that in some sense I like a certain degree of centralization not in a but in the sense of there is a big public space and it matters that something appears there. Now if we get this dispersion all of us has our own media and so on, this will contribute to this personalization, dispersion and so on. So I I'm not so glad about it, which is why okay we can maybe change the canon but I'm basically for canon. It should be less racist and so on, but you know the canon has a function to give you certain central points of reference. If you lose this we enter a confused universe where people can be much more easily manipulated and so on. Yes, yes. That's that's great. I I wonder. But speaking about humor nonetheless let's go on to more interesting points. Because we already talk about this on the phone. My basic point about humor especially political humor is that it's a very ambiguous thing. I know very well how it has emancipatory liberating side. I'm not only talking about at this stupid level when people laugh, they feel more relaxed, easier, but at a more radical level. For example that's for me the problem with political correctness. Let's say we come from different cultures. It doesn't matter which degree of difference. And first we treat each other respectfully, no, and it's this horrible politically correct game, you know, like, oh what is your food, oh what is your culture, your stupid folkloric dances or you. This is just polite distance. Okay. But the true miracle comes where we suddenly really connect. And I claim it can only be done through a slight exchange of obscenity. This happened to me in China where I was debating with some philosophers, it was all this respectful polite, then I risked it and made a slight dirty joke and so on. And they started it totally changed the atmosphere. So on the one hand, on the one hand I'm well aware of this liberating aspect of humor even and especially obscene humor. But I think this is not all. Because one of my founding epiphany experiences is this: I remember in late 70s early 80s when politics became a little bit more open in ex-Yugoslavia, so there were small dissident gatherings. It was a nice example of how obscene humor can be used in the service of power. We were at the dissident gathering where some dissident who was imprisoned reported in a very tragic voice of his fate. And then a guy of whom we discovered later that he was a state provocateur, you know what he did? Not the official Stalinist way, how dare you talk like this, we live in socialist democracy, but like when he was saying something this guy through this pure obscenities he tried to ruin the performance. Or another of his strategies was, but what do you want? All politics is a whore, it's all corruption, you know this total dismissal and so on. So my favorite story here is the following one. First I thought it's only in my country, but then I discovered when I visited Russia, Poland, Czech Republic, that they had the same myth in all these countries. That there was an ultra-secret department of secret police where they were fabricating political jokes not against the enemy, anti-imperialist, against the regime, because they make a simple calculation. People are frustrated. If you feed them with the right jokes they will feel oh but we did strike back and so on, and there will be a lot less of more dangerous, brutal because you know the meaning of political joke is not only they are stupid those in power but let's make fun of them, who cares, it doesn't exactly incite to activity. So although I think this was not true, it was never proven, and and also it's interestingly theoretically wrong because although jokes can be fabricated, but it's interesting how you should never present a joke as your invention. The formula is I heard this joke or whatever. Yes, that's true. You never. This is why this is the most convincing theory. You know there is a story by Isaac Asimov, not my favorite sci-fi writer, but it's nice short story called Jokester. Uh-huh. Where some linguist claim that this mystical moment when God created humans, out of apes made them, was by telling them a joke. That they and they try to reconstruct that original joke whatever. So what I'm saying is that I know that in Stalinism okay maybe there are extreme points where this no longer works, but at least in everyday socialism, yes, jokes in Eastern Europe absolutely played a positive role. Yes. Positive in the sense of ultimately allowing the regime to function even better. And it's not only this. The most interesting part was for me the last years of socialism when Communists saw the writing on the wall, it's over. Literally the writing on the Berlin Wall. Almost literally, yeah. So to save themselves in Yugoslavia, which was a little bit more liberal, it's wonderful detail. They even started at political gatherings to tell jokes about themselves to make them popular and some of them were even not so bad like I remember a famous Croat, big Communist politician, was asked by a journalist how did your trip to Rome, state trip went? And he even made a good series of jokes of how stupid he is. You know, they also have in English in Europe chapel means chapel, Sistine Chapel, but it also means capella like the small the small band that plays in a cafeteria. And he said, it was all confusion. I was told to go and see Sistine Chapel, then I checked in all restaurants Sistine Chapel played nowhere. Then I was told to go and see Figaro's wedding, I checked all the churches, nowhere was Figaro and you know it went on like four, five. But isn't wasn't this a weird, a weird situation when like those in power themselves got the point and used these jokes to. Yes. And I think if you ask me I'm not kidding here that although again I am ambiguous here, you definitely have this socially constructive role of jokes, nonetheless they were maybe in the same way as I said what are the greatest achievements doctors' jokes and so on of American culture, maybe the greatest cultural loss of Eastern Europe of the fall of communism was the disappearance of good political jokes if you ask me. Wait, you're saying that the government itself were the were the perpetrators of the jokes on themselves in order to make. This was at the end only, at the end only. So the oppressor, that's what I wanted to ask you about the oppressor versus the
unknown
oppressed in terms
oppressed in terms
Slavoj Žižek
of humor and that's one of the first things we ever talked about. We have this even at two levels. On the one hand in every dictatorship the oppressors have their own not so much joke as cruel irony. It is humor towards the like and this is my big lesson in ex-Yugoslavia. At least in the last years to be part of the inner elite, nomenklatura, you had to have an ironic attitude towards the official ideology. Okay. And it's almost a tragic story for me. I had in the 70s two friends who were simply okay, it was slightly stupid of them but nonetheless who were sincere who were sincere believers in the system. They lost their job. Mmm. Because nomenklatura higher thought my God if they seriously believe in it they will soon discover that it's not like that blah blah for them taking seriously the official ideology was the first step towards dissidence. And it was so interesting to note how through a set of encoded not publicly recognized but nonetheless strictly encoded practices you had to signal this distance. I will tell you another story. We were happy in Slovenia because we are a small nation, million people so for us and this was even in a way nice funny you know general secretary of the party was not as in Soviet Union big guy you see him in a limousine maybe passing by. My God he walked along you could meet him on the street, no? So once when I was young I was a communist of course I listened to a speech to young communists by the general secretary. And there he claimed two things, that you communists young you should study Marxism not just Communist Manifesto, you should read both volumes of Capital and you should always follow the fourth thesis on Feuerbach,
of humor and that's one of the first things we ever talked about. We have this even at two levels. On the one hand in every dictatorship the oppressors have their own not so much joke as cruel irony. It is humor towards the like and this is my big lesson in ex-Yugoslavia. At least in the last years to be part of the inner elite, nomenklatura, you had to have an ironic attitude towards the official ideology. Okay. And it's almost a tragic story for me. I had in the 70s two friends who were simply okay, it was slightly stupid of them but nonetheless who were sincere who were sincere believers in the system. They lost their job. Mmm. Because nomenklatura higher thought my God if they seriously believe in it they will soon discover that it's not like that blah blah for them taking seriously the official ideology was the first step towards dissidence. And it was so interesting to note how through a set of encoded not publicly recognized but nonetheless strictly encoded practices you had to signal this distance. I will tell you another story. We were happy in Slovenia because we are a small nation, million people so for us and this was even in a way nice funny you know general secretary of the party was not as in Soviet Union big guy you see him in a limousine maybe passing by. My God he walked along you could meet him on the street, no? So once when I was young I was a communist of course I listened to a speech to young communists by the general secretary. And there he claimed two things, that you communists young you should study Marxism not just Communist Manifesto, you should read both volumes of Capital and you should always follow the fourth thesis on Feuerbach,
unknown
philosophers have only interpreted blah blah. And then afterwards because we were mingling
philosophers have only interpreted blah blah. And then afterwards because we were mingling
Slavoj Žižek
with him I approached and say comrade general secretary you know I just want to draw your attention that
with him I approached and say comrade general secretary you know I just want to draw your attention that
unknown
you committed a double mistake there. There are three volumes of Capital and it's thesis I got an answer of a lifetime.
you committed a double mistake there. There are three volumes of Capital and it's thesis I got an answer of a lifetime.
Slavoj Žižek
You know what he told me? No. I know this but that was my message I don't care. Wasn't this an incredible how openly distance was distance was included. And it was again strictly codified in what and this is my and this is where what fascinate me so much in how ideology functions it it enters this idea of how every ideology is not just the set of official values rules but a much more subtle set of how you are expected to violate these rules. Right. And if you don't do this you are much more excluded than openly opposing these rules. Yes. This fascinated me always immensely. Like to speak about comedy, my greatest lesson in ideology and comedy where I can tell you an experience of mine probably you don't know it it's just in some small half forgotten book of mine was serving the army. Armies are paradise for me. No, I hated it. Paradise in the sense of how army life pretends to be discipline, sacrifice, regulated but at the same time you have all this fragging, obscenities and so on which are absolutely crucial to see how it functions. So I had an experience of this. When I was serving Yugoslav army I once reported I mean claimed that I was a little bit ill so I I I was sent to a doctor who was doing a collective exam. Ten of us were sitting there and then each of us had to stand up to him and something incredible happened. I a friend of mine an Albanian stood up and said I have a pain in my penis. Everybody started to laugh because in Serbo-Croat boli me kurac which means I don't give a damn literally. Then he said no, no, no I mean it literally. Okay. Doctor told him pull your trousers down show me. and okay doctor said what's wrong? He said when I pull the skin down from the top it hurts. Doctor said no you pulled it down now doesn't hurt. The guy said okay only when I have erection. Then the doctor said okay masturbate. Comedy entered, you know, because with all of us around the guy desperately tried to masturbate he didn't get erection. So then doctor noticed that there was there a wash basin in the same room with some of those pre-pornographic stupid pictures you know like you turn you have it like this it's a dressed lady, you turn it like this the breast. Okay and says then he approached with this a guy he made a comedy and said look at it, look that legs, look those breasts, masturbate it. Are you are you a man or not? It was a comedy. The doctor even winked at us we all laughed like crazy. And then I got it. There was absolutely nothing subversive in this. This is a necessary other part of military authority. This was not oh you see it was subversive undermining authority. No, authority military authority absolutely relies on this obscene solidarity. All this even with homosexuality some of my gay friends didn't like this example but but nonetheless it's meant absolutely pro gay. In my unit there was a phrase you must remember this in Serbo-Croat language which we spoke in the army although I'm a Slovene. The the term for sucking a dick is not to suck but to smoke. Okay. And the way we greeted each other in the morning was not good morning but I'll suck yours and the other answers okay and I'll suck your some exchange totally ritualized. The beauty is that we didn't laugh. It was a totally objectified formula, no? So you know what shocked me so much in the army? How it was of course the most homophobic institution. If a soldier was discovered to be really gay, mhm, it was the ritual, you know, with belt every night somebody put a somebody put a pillow on his head so that he couldn't see the others were beating him. Absolutely homophobic. Yes. But at the same time I never saw a community so totally penetrated by homosexual innuendos. Like when we were waiting in line for lunch whatever the standard game was you wait somebody in the back sticks a finger up yours quickly pulls it out and then you look back and ha-ha it wasn't me the others. It's absolutely crucial this radical ambiguity. Some kind of a thwarted perverted homosexuality is not only totally tolerated but even required. Right. and and it's necessary. Yeah, necessary but at the same time the moment it passes into let's call it actual serious homosexuality you are you are out. But again what it and again at this level I like obscene rituals not this stupid male logic haha dirty but this objective function that they played. Another story the last one which is comedy but comedy playing an absolutely positive role this time. I my best friend in the army was an Albanian soldier. We were both university educated so when we looked at when we met each other we greeted every morning then one morning he wanted to signal that was the point of this obscenity that he really wants to be friend with me. And in the army the only way to do it was through an obscenity. So instead of saying good morning and this was important to come from an Albanian who were very sensitive to insulting mother sister more than wife. He greeted me with I I screw I fuck your mother. I knew what I what's expected from me. To just return with a symmetrical obscenity. Believe me I never had problems with this, I instantly answered him go ahead after I finish with your sister. Some obscenity, typical male chauvinist exchanging of means. But you know what was so fascinating? Then we embraced each other like we are friends now and then every time that we met this became a ritual. Not even we didn't even have to say the whole phrase. When we greeted each other he said mother I said sister. We and that's the beauty we didn't even laugh. It was just it was this pure token of solidarity like we are friends. Yes. And again I like this pure ritualization. Now I will give you another example. Did you see the movie maybe too sentimental but I like the ending. Did you see this new hit now Wind River, Indian word? Just at the end with Jeremy Renner, Jeremy Renner. Yeah, yeah, yeah. At the end the guy is mmm a Native American Indian is mourning and paints his face with some death face. His friend white but living with Indians visits him and asks him what are you doing, where did you learn this to paint your face? And the guy says I just invented it nobody taught me and so on. Then he said I'm just sitting here to mourn for my raped killed daughter. Yes. And then after I will finish with this I will wash this shit off my face and go. And then of course it's an act of okay male I know solidarity. Then the white man said can I sit with you? Yes. And that's the end. What I like it so much and you will see the similarity between this and that mother sister. It's it's not that the white man expresses solidarity with the his Indian African American friend as a sign of you know this patronizing solidarity, it's your primitive culture. No, the Indian guy makes it absolutely clear that this is all shit. So it's not I believe in it. The Indian guy is already a modern guy lost his substantial cultural identity faith but nonetheless this type of empty ritual in all its beauty much better than if it if it were to be some authentic belief. A solemn thing right. Yeah, yeah. although they both know it's shit and so on. Yeah, yeah, incredible. This this this touched me this touched me this touched me very much. It's a question of awareness also for. Yeah that's. And this touched me very much. I had one of the best encounters with you call them now Native Americans in Missoula, Montana. Okay. It was pure comedy in a loving way. Because I it was wonderful to encounter them. They told me because I called them Indians and they told me we appreciate that. They told they considered much more racist Native American because I'm sorry but Native is nature and they told me what we are Native Americans and you are Cultural Americans or what? Right, exactly. And they gave me a wonderful comical answer why they prefer Indians. They say at least our name is a monument to white man's stupidity, you know, who thought they discovered Indians and so on. And also another ingenious moment. None of this you know they despise this they play this game for white liberals. This oh you explore nature while we have a we have we have more a holistic approach with dialogue with nature. A friend of mine there wrote a short essay demonstrating that Native Americans whatever call them killed more buffalos and ruined more forests than all the. But you know this was a moment of pride like they got it that in painting them as this holistic good there is something terribly patronizing in it. If anything their tragic historical experience makes them because they are really uprooted much more modern than we are. And that's how I I and they hate people who come to them why don't you follow your tradition. They come from a poor tribe and they gave me a wonderful answer. They said you know that only the rich tribes those who struck dirt with casinos or mining, they can finance to revitalize their old tradition. Sorry, we ordinary poor tribes we don't have money to do that, you know. Right. That's so interesting. Yes. Yeah. So again I think that at this level also I didn't lose the track, you know. Whenever there is this false patronizing attitude towards so-called primitives but they really are much deeper they had a more organic attitude and so on and so on. It's an absolute fake. Right. Only this kind of humorous exchange and this is the moment of humor when they perform their ritual and they let it go let you know why would you take it seriously, but we don't take it seriously. We basically perform this for you. Right. There is maybe you read it in one of my early books a wonderful story about a paradox somewhere in not New Zealand, more primitive New Guinea story which really happened. It's wonderful. A tribe in 18th middle of 19th century a tribe a group of explorers visited tribe in the middle of the island. Yes. and they learn that they have some horrible ritual death dance with terrifying masks. And they arrive to this tribe in the evening through some interpreter they explain to them that they want to see this dance. And next morning, yes, the tribe performed this dance for them. And they left writing anthropological report blah blah. You know what happened years later? Another group, a little bit more intelligent, came there and learned the true story. There was no death dance. They were simply good hosts, hospitality. They somehow understood that the white people want to see some terrifying dance. And all the night they worked on it and performed it. That's incredible. This is how we should treat traditions and all that and so on and so on. And here humor helps in the sense of not in the sense of making fun of the primitives but to see how they can be in some sense more modern than we are. Right, right. I think even with no I don't sympathize with them but how people don't see that ISIS Islamic State okay their ideology is a patch up of old slogans but their organization is ultra-modern even post-modern. Yes. This is like a very well organized gang absolutely nothing traditional about it. Right. Tell us about that, tell us about how they get their message out also and how they also use comedy in their in their sort of message to. That's that's what really makes me sad, that's the problem for me with political correctness although I totally support their goals. Of course, yeah. Absolutely. and I mean it seriously, like I am now horrified with all those actors who did what they did and so on. But there is a problem that if you apply political correctness in this literal sense of killing all irony, then then not only I think at a deeper level you just reproduce racism because you don't really get rid of it, you just control it, but again you open the space to the other side to use it. When I was young and you years ago, uh uh right wingers were this puffed up dignified boys and it was the strategy of the left to be a little bit provocative, dirty and so on. Now it's almost the opposite. How did that happen? I think, I don't have a big psycho-sociological theory, but I think it's I'm surprised by the way that you don't. No, no, no, no, I have limits. But I think it has something to do with this cultural turn of the left. It began already in 80s later when the left practically de facto admitted that they don't have an alternative. Mhm. So the the strategy was then moralization. We don't deal so much with economy and so on, legal problems, we culturalize politics. And they become this kind of a neopuritans, you know. And also it's in a way an obscene enjoyment. For example I notice how some of my politically correct friends what pleasure this gives to you like you know you always suspect am I already out of racism but what if even in this case there is still a trace of racism and what I'm almost always saying is that a truly non-racist society wouldn't be the one where you would not use dirty words but the one in which dirty words, obscene humor could be used without functioning in a racist way. Right. and it can be done. I had a wonderful, I will not mention his name it may hurt him me but with a big name. Okay. black thinker, activist. Okay. We had a debate and he liked what I said so much that he told me you are now my friend, brother, you can call me nigger. Now wait a minute, this was a very refined note why it was not only a sign of true solidarity but it was also you know a wonderful use of what I call an offer meant to be rejected. If I were really to say okay fuck off nigger he would be fully justified in being mad at me. Yeah. The function of this it was not a real call to me to call him nigger, it was just a signal that I was not expected to follow, a signal of of of using it, a signal of true proximity that he accepts me. And at this level I'm often an idiot that I take this type of statements too literally. I remember my first visit to New York years ago I wasn't used to it you have here I don't know if you still have it at that point in all this lower Manhattan cafeterias for old hippies and so on. The waiter brings you free water and then are you how are you today? I didn't know this is a rhetorical question. So I started oh I feel pretty bad bumpy flight turbulence and he looked at me as if I'm a complete idiot. It was a pure comical moment you know. So what I'm saying is that I don't think that in this sense maybe this is me as a neo-conservative, I don't think that rituals are always bad. Rituals also brings freedom. Look, let's say we don't yet know each other we meet. Okay. And we have these phrases how are you today? If we don't are real friends and if I ask you how are you today we probably both know that that this is not
You know what he told me? No. I know this but that was my message I don't care. Wasn't this an incredible how openly distance was distance was included. And it was again strictly codified in what and this is my and this is where what fascinate me so much in how ideology functions it it enters this idea of how every ideology is not just the set of official values rules but a much more subtle set of how you are expected to violate these rules. Right. And if you don't do this you are much more excluded than openly opposing these rules. Yes. This fascinated me always immensely. Like to speak about comedy, my greatest lesson in ideology and comedy where I can tell you an experience of mine probably you don't know it it's just in some small half forgotten book of mine was serving the army. Armies are paradise for me. No, I hated it. Paradise in the sense of how army life pretends to be discipline, sacrifice, regulated but at the same time you have all this fragging, obscenities and so on which are absolutely crucial to see how it functions. So I had an experience of this. When I was serving Yugoslav army I once reported I mean claimed that I was a little bit ill so I I I was sent to a doctor who was doing a collective exam. Ten of us were sitting there and then each of us had to stand up to him and something incredible happened. I a friend of mine an Albanian stood up and said I have a pain in my penis. Everybody started to laugh because in Serbo-Croat boli me kurac which means I don't give a damn literally. Then he said no, no, no I mean it literally. Okay. Doctor told him pull your trousers down show me. and okay doctor said what's wrong? He said when I pull the skin down from the top it hurts. Doctor said no you pulled it down now doesn't hurt. The guy said okay only when I have erection. Then the doctor said okay masturbate. Comedy entered, you know, because with all of us around the guy desperately tried to masturbate he didn't get erection. So then doctor noticed that there was there a wash basin in the same room with some of those pre-pornographic stupid pictures you know like you turn you have it like this it's a dressed lady, you turn it like this the breast. Okay and says then he approached with this a guy he made a comedy and said look at it, look that legs, look those breasts, masturbate it. Are you are you a man or not? It was a comedy. The doctor even winked at us we all laughed like crazy. And then I got it. There was absolutely nothing subversive in this. This is a necessary other part of military authority. This was not oh you see it was subversive undermining authority. No, authority military authority absolutely relies on this obscene solidarity. All this even with homosexuality some of my gay friends didn't like this example but but nonetheless it's meant absolutely pro gay. In my unit there was a phrase you must remember this in Serbo-Croat language which we spoke in the army although I'm a Slovene. The the term for sucking a dick is not to suck but to smoke. Okay. And the way we greeted each other in the morning was not good morning but I'll suck yours and the other answers okay and I'll suck your some exchange totally ritualized. The beauty is that we didn't laugh. It was a totally objectified formula, no? So you know what shocked me so much in the army? How it was of course the most homophobic institution. If a soldier was discovered to be really gay, mhm, it was the ritual, you know, with belt every night somebody put a somebody put a pillow on his head so that he couldn't see the others were beating him. Absolutely homophobic. Yes. But at the same time I never saw a community so totally penetrated by homosexual innuendos. Like when we were waiting in line for lunch whatever the standard game was you wait somebody in the back sticks a finger up yours quickly pulls it out and then you look back and ha-ha it wasn't me the others. It's absolutely crucial this radical ambiguity. Some kind of a thwarted perverted homosexuality is not only totally tolerated but even required. Right. and and it's necessary. Yeah, necessary but at the same time the moment it passes into let's call it actual serious homosexuality you are you are out. But again what it and again at this level I like obscene rituals not this stupid male logic haha dirty but this objective function that they played. Another story the last one which is comedy but comedy playing an absolutely positive role this time. I my best friend in the army was an Albanian soldier. We were both university educated so when we looked at when we met each other we greeted every morning then one morning he wanted to signal that was the point of this obscenity that he really wants to be friend with me. And in the army the only way to do it was through an obscenity. So instead of saying good morning and this was important to come from an Albanian who were very sensitive to insulting mother sister more than wife. He greeted me with I I screw I fuck your mother. I knew what I what's expected from me. To just return with a symmetrical obscenity. Believe me I never had problems with this, I instantly answered him go ahead after I finish with your sister. Some obscenity, typical male chauvinist exchanging of means. But you know what was so fascinating? Then we embraced each other like we are friends now and then every time that we met this became a ritual. Not even we didn't even have to say the whole phrase. When we greeted each other he said mother I said sister. We and that's the beauty we didn't even laugh. It was just it was this pure token of solidarity like we are friends. Yes. And again I like this pure ritualization. Now I will give you another example. Did you see the movie maybe too sentimental but I like the ending. Did you see this new hit now Wind River, Indian word? Just at the end with Jeremy Renner, Jeremy Renner. Yeah, yeah, yeah. At the end the guy is mmm a Native American Indian is mourning and paints his face with some death face. His friend white but living with Indians visits him and asks him what are you doing, where did you learn this to paint your face? And the guy says I just invented it nobody taught me and so on. Then he said I'm just sitting here to mourn for my raped killed daughter. Yes. And then after I will finish with this I will wash this shit off my face and go. And then of course it's an act of okay male I know solidarity. Then the white man said can I sit with you? Yes. And that's the end. What I like it so much and you will see the similarity between this and that mother sister. It's it's not that the white man expresses solidarity with the his Indian African American friend as a sign of you know this patronizing solidarity, it's your primitive culture. No, the Indian guy makes it absolutely clear that this is all shit. So it's not I believe in it. The Indian guy is already a modern guy lost his substantial cultural identity faith but nonetheless this type of empty ritual in all its beauty much better than if it if it were to be some authentic belief. A solemn thing right. Yeah, yeah. although they both know it's shit and so on. Yeah, yeah, incredible. This this this touched me this touched me this touched me very much. It's a question of awareness also for. Yeah that's. And this touched me very much. I had one of the best encounters with you call them now Native Americans in Missoula, Montana. Okay. It was pure comedy in a loving way. Because I it was wonderful to encounter them. They told me because I called them Indians and they told me we appreciate that. They told they considered much more racist Native American because I'm sorry but Native is nature and they told me what we are Native Americans and you are Cultural Americans or what? Right, exactly. And they gave me a wonderful comical answer why they prefer Indians. They say at least our name is a monument to white man's stupidity, you know, who thought they discovered Indians and so on. And also another ingenious moment. None of this you know they despise this they play this game for white liberals. This oh you explore nature while we have a we have we have more a holistic approach with dialogue with nature. A friend of mine there wrote a short essay demonstrating that Native Americans whatever call them killed more buffalos and ruined more forests than all the. But you know this was a moment of pride like they got it that in painting them as this holistic good there is something terribly patronizing in it. If anything their tragic historical experience makes them because they are really uprooted much more modern than we are. And that's how I I and they hate people who come to them why don't you follow your tradition. They come from a poor tribe and they gave me a wonderful answer. They said you know that only the rich tribes those who struck dirt with casinos or mining, they can finance to revitalize their old tradition. Sorry, we ordinary poor tribes we don't have money to do that, you know. Right. That's so interesting. Yes. Yeah. So again I think that at this level also I didn't lose the track, you know. Whenever there is this false patronizing attitude towards so-called primitives but they really are much deeper they had a more organic attitude and so on and so on. It's an absolute fake. Right. Only this kind of humorous exchange and this is the moment of humor when they perform their ritual and they let it go let you know why would you take it seriously, but we don't take it seriously. We basically perform this for you. Right. There is maybe you read it in one of my early books a wonderful story about a paradox somewhere in not New Zealand, more primitive New Guinea story which really happened. It's wonderful. A tribe in 18th middle of 19th century a tribe a group of explorers visited tribe in the middle of the island. Yes. and they learn that they have some horrible ritual death dance with terrifying masks. And they arrive to this tribe in the evening through some interpreter they explain to them that they want to see this dance. And next morning, yes, the tribe performed this dance for them. And they left writing anthropological report blah blah. You know what happened years later? Another group, a little bit more intelligent, came there and learned the true story. There was no death dance. They were simply good hosts, hospitality. They somehow understood that the white people want to see some terrifying dance. And all the night they worked on it and performed it. That's incredible. This is how we should treat traditions and all that and so on and so on. And here humor helps in the sense of not in the sense of making fun of the primitives but to see how they can be in some sense more modern than we are. Right, right. I think even with no I don't sympathize with them but how people don't see that ISIS Islamic State okay their ideology is a patch up of old slogans but their organization is ultra-modern even post-modern. Yes. This is like a very well organized gang absolutely nothing traditional about it. Right. Tell us about that, tell us about how they get their message out also and how they also use comedy in their in their sort of message to. That's that's what really makes me sad, that's the problem for me with political correctness although I totally support their goals. Of course, yeah. Absolutely. and I mean it seriously, like I am now horrified with all those actors who did what they did and so on. But there is a problem that if you apply political correctness in this literal sense of killing all irony, then then not only I think at a deeper level you just reproduce racism because you don't really get rid of it, you just control it, but again you open the space to the other side to use it. When I was young and you years ago, uh uh right wingers were this puffed up dignified boys and it was the strategy of the left to be a little bit provocative, dirty and so on. Now it's almost the opposite. How did that happen? I think, I don't have a big psycho-sociological theory, but I think it's I'm surprised by the way that you don't. No, no, no, no, I have limits. But I think it has something to do with this cultural turn of the left. It began already in 80s later when the left practically de facto admitted that they don't have an alternative. Mhm. So the the strategy was then moralization. We don't deal so much with economy and so on, legal problems, we culturalize politics. And they become this kind of a neopuritans, you know. And also it's in a way an obscene enjoyment. For example I notice how some of my politically correct friends what pleasure this gives to you like you know you always suspect am I already out of racism but what if even in this case there is still a trace of racism and what I'm almost always saying is that a truly non-racist society wouldn't be the one where you would not use dirty words but the one in which dirty words, obscene humor could be used without functioning in a racist way. Right. and it can be done. I had a wonderful, I will not mention his name it may hurt him me but with a big name. Okay. black thinker, activist. Okay. We had a debate and he liked what I said so much that he told me you are now my friend, brother, you can call me nigger. Now wait a minute, this was a very refined note why it was not only a sign of true solidarity but it was also you know a wonderful use of what I call an offer meant to be rejected. If I were really to say okay fuck off nigger he would be fully justified in being mad at me. Yeah. The function of this it was not a real call to me to call him nigger, it was just a signal that I was not expected to follow, a signal of of of using it, a signal of true proximity that he accepts me. And at this level I'm often an idiot that I take this type of statements too literally. I remember my first visit to New York years ago I wasn't used to it you have here I don't know if you still have it at that point in all this lower Manhattan cafeterias for old hippies and so on. The waiter brings you free water and then are you how are you today? I didn't know this is a rhetorical question. So I started oh I feel pretty bad bumpy flight turbulence and he looked at me as if I'm a complete idiot. It was a pure comical moment you know. So what I'm saying is that I don't think that in this sense maybe this is me as a neo-conservative, I don't think that rituals are always bad. Rituals also brings freedom. Look, let's say we don't yet know each other we meet. Okay. And we have these phrases how are you today? If we don't are real friends and if I ask you how are you today we probably both know that that this is not
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meant literally and that I'm even probably not really interested in it. Because if you discover
meant literally and that I'm even probably not really interested in it. Because if you discover
Slavoj Žižek
that I'm really interested in it you would have the full right to tell me, sorry it's none of your business how I feel. Yeah, yeah. So I find this so fascinating how this is what I call sincere lie. We all for example we stumble one upon the other on a street and I greet you nice to see you. Right. We both suspect that what I'm really thinking is why didn't I notice this idiot half a minute before so I would be able to cross to the other side of the street. Well I think the next time I see you I'm going to just say mother. That would be wonderful yeah yeah. And you can say sister and then we are true friends. No but what I want to say is that although we both know it's a lie but as such it does its function. So what I mean through all these examples is that now it will be a radical thesis. I don't think that because this gaps like this call for a comical reading either you take it too literally or whatever. I and you know who was aware of this false identification? One of the classic Alfred Hitchcock's plots like in North by Northwest. Okay. this all of us are like this, you know Roger O. Thornhill. Your identity is determined totally from outside. Yes. This is why it's not a tragic movie because in a tragic movie your identity is your fate. You do something wrong, you pay the price for your hubris whatever. But the Hitchcockian plot is a comic one. It it can be very tragic but it's pure comic identification this because there is no deeper connection between the real the real Roger O. Thornhill and he is George Kaplan no what is he identified as in North by Northwest you know. You're just by total contingency you find yourself at a certain place. And I think even for anti-Semitism it works like this, you know in my country we have a standard not anti-Semitic but pro-Semitic basically jokes that one guy says to the other Jews and cyclists are guilty of all our troubles. And the automatic answer of another is why cyclists, you know? for Jews we know we know and so on no. So again what I think that we should accept that language at a zero level is a comical instrument. It's an not an instrument of deeper truth. Right. Even good good cognitivist like Daniel Dennett make this point clear that language was invented much more important than all those pseudo-Marxist topics we work collectively and we have to exchange information. No, it's basically for seduction and lying, creating false impressions and so on. In language we also have the the basic lesson of psychoanalysis is always that the identity conferred on you by language is by definition a false identity. That's why for psychoanalysis hysteria is the truly subversive position not perversion. Okay. The hysterical question is as Lacan put it nicely: why am I what you are telling me that I am? That's why women are and that's a good thing more hysteric. A woman is is identified with a cert- you are mother, sister, slave, whatever, a certain position and the hysterical question is: but why am I what you are saying that I am? And here again hysterical comedy enters and so on and so on in contrast to perversion which I think is not comical. Perverts are boring people. You know hysterical people ask questions, perverts don't have a doubt, perverts know, know what they want and so on. That's why they are horrible, much more difficult to treat and the great achievement of psychoanalysis against the spirit of where unfortunately the main tendency was to dismiss hysteria as half serious, hysteric just provoke the master they really want a master, perverts go to the end. No, perverts are always the dark side of power. Every dignified power edifice needs a pervert secretly to sustain it, to sustain it no. Have you ever heard of a a Czech movie called The Joke? There's a Czech movie from the 60s, I think I know it's a but you know that it's made from it's based on Milan Kundera book which is incidentally I think much better than his unbearable lightness and so on. It's maybe his best. I even saw it recently because I bought at some sales they are now disappearing in London for pounds a cassette of four great those Prague Spring movies and so on you know. and uh what I like is this is it in the movie also in the novel? I think they cut it out from the movie. At the novel his ex-mistress who reported on him at the end wants to kill herself but she takes the wrong pills for how do you call it to make you to shit. To shit, yes. and this this this comical turn it doesn't make the situation less desperate but it's crucial I think again it's not a strategy of comedy, it's the strategy of true despair. Not to go to the end into a tragedy but to give to the tragedy a comical twist. Yeah, yeah. Now one of your favorite, one of my favorite aphorisms of yours is resistance is surrender and we've sort of been talking about. No, it was too radical there but what I still mean is that a certain kind of resistance just plays the game and so that I call it following my good friend Austrian philosopher Robert
that I'm really interested in it you would have the full right to tell me, sorry it's none of your business how I feel. Yeah, yeah. So I find this so fascinating how this is what I call sincere lie. We all for example we stumble one upon the other on a street and I greet you nice to see you. Right. We both suspect that what I'm really thinking is why didn't I notice this idiot half a minute before so I would be able to cross to the other side of the street. Well I think the next time I see you I'm going to just say mother. That would be wonderful yeah yeah. And you can say sister and then we are true friends. No but what I want to say is that although we both know it's a lie but as such it does its function. So what I mean through all these examples is that now it will be a radical thesis. I don't think that because this gaps like this call for a comical reading either you take it too literally or whatever. I and you know who was aware of this false identification? One of the classic Alfred Hitchcock's plots like in North by Northwest. Okay. this all of us are like this, you know Roger O. Thornhill. Your identity is determined totally from outside. Yes. This is why it's not a tragic movie because in a tragic movie your identity is your fate. You do something wrong, you pay the price for your hubris whatever. But the Hitchcockian plot is a comic one. It it can be very tragic but it's pure comic identification this because there is no deeper connection between the real the real Roger O. Thornhill and he is George Kaplan no what is he identified as in North by Northwest you know. You're just by total contingency you find yourself at a certain place. And I think even for anti-Semitism it works like this, you know in my country we have a standard not anti-Semitic but pro-Semitic basically jokes that one guy says to the other Jews and cyclists are guilty of all our troubles. And the automatic answer of another is why cyclists, you know? for Jews we know we know and so on no. So again what I think that we should accept that language at a zero level is a comical instrument. It's an not an instrument of deeper truth. Right. Even good good cognitivist like Daniel Dennett make this point clear that language was invented much more important than all those pseudo-Marxist topics we work collectively and we have to exchange information. No, it's basically for seduction and lying, creating false impressions and so on. In language we also have the the basic lesson of psychoanalysis is always that the identity conferred on you by language is by definition a false identity. That's why for psychoanalysis hysteria is the truly subversive position not perversion. Okay. The hysterical question is as Lacan put it nicely: why am I what you are telling me that I am? That's why women are and that's a good thing more hysteric. A woman is is identified with a cert- you are mother, sister, slave, whatever, a certain position and the hysterical question is: but why am I what you are saying that I am? And here again hysterical comedy enters and so on and so on in contrast to perversion which I think is not comical. Perverts are boring people. You know hysterical people ask questions, perverts don't have a doubt, perverts know, know what they want and so on. That's why they are horrible, much more difficult to treat and the great achievement of psychoanalysis against the spirit of where unfortunately the main tendency was to dismiss hysteria as half serious, hysteric just provoke the master they really want a master, perverts go to the end. No, perverts are always the dark side of power. Every dignified power edifice needs a pervert secretly to sustain it, to sustain it no. Have you ever heard of a a Czech movie called The Joke? There's a Czech movie from the 60s, I think I know it's a but you know that it's made from it's based on Milan Kundera book which is incidentally I think much better than his unbearable lightness and so on. It's maybe his best. I even saw it recently because I bought at some sales they are now disappearing in London for pounds a cassette of four great those Prague Spring movies and so on you know. and uh what I like is this is it in the movie also in the novel? I think they cut it out from the movie. At the novel his ex-mistress who reported on him at the end wants to kill herself but she takes the wrong pills for how do you call it to make you to shit. To shit, yes. and this this this comical turn it doesn't make the situation less desperate but it's crucial I think again it's not a strategy of comedy, it's the strategy of true despair. Not to go to the end into a tragedy but to give to the tragedy a comical twist. Yeah, yeah. Now one of your favorite, one of my favorite aphorisms of yours is resistance is surrender and we've sort of been talking about. No, it was too radical there but what I still mean is that a certain kind of resistance just plays the game and so that I call it following my good friend Austrian philosopher Robert
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Pfaller that resistance can be co-opted as what in boxing
Pfaller that resistance can be co-opted as what in boxing
Slavoj Žižek
they call clinching, you know when you are dangerously hitting me I embrace you. Yes. And often you know it's always okay let's talk and so on and then I mean like communists in the last ten years of Yugoslav communism, communists were doing it all the time. It was a wonderful it's again comic detail. Somewhere from early 80s at least in Slovenia no way you could wrote whatever you wanted, no way to be arrested. So one friend of mine it's a wonderful comical story was worried like he wanted a badge of honor, I was imprisoned for one month whatever. And he worried so he wrote a terrible attack on party even published in some journal. Like the attack said like you are worse than Stalinist this is the most corrupt well. and he got an invitation from the central committee: come and talk it's interesting what you wrote. He went there, attacked them even more. Will they arrest me now? No. They told him it's so nice that we talk, it's wonderful that you came, you see we should talk more. Sometimes the thing to do is to not to be violent but to refuse the dialogue. Uh-huh, right. Silence can be often more threatening. Yes. You know that's all I meant that this type of and unfortunately it goes for a lot of political correctness or this cultural left. You know what My God I was almost lynched when I took note of this that how LGBT plus with all the hell they are raising as if they are most subversive but I'm sorry all the big business stands behind them. Name them: Zuckerberg, Tim Cook and so on. and I was shocked,
they call clinching, you know when you are dangerously hitting me I embrace you. Yes. And often you know it's always okay let's talk and so on and then I mean like communists in the last ten years of Yugoslav communism, communists were doing it all the time. It was a wonderful it's again comic detail. Somewhere from early 80s at least in Slovenia no way you could wrote whatever you wanted, no way to be arrested. So one friend of mine it's a wonderful comical story was worried like he wanted a badge of honor, I was imprisoned for one month whatever. And he worried so he wrote a terrible attack on party even published in some journal. Like the attack said like you are worse than Stalinist this is the most corrupt well. and he got an invitation from the central committee: come and talk it's interesting what you wrote. He went there, attacked them even more. Will they arrest me now? No. They told him it's so nice that we talk, it's wonderful that you came, you see we should talk more. Sometimes the thing to do is to not to be violent but to refuse the dialogue. Uh-huh, right. Silence can be often more threatening. Yes. You know that's all I meant that this type of and unfortunately it goes for a lot of political correctness or this cultural left. You know what My God I was almost lynched when I took note of this that how LGBT plus with all the hell they are raising as if they are most subversive but I'm sorry all the big business stands behind them. Name them: Zuckerberg, Tim Cook and so on. and I was shocked,
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Zuckerberg gave some two
Zuckerberg gave some two
Slavoj Žižek
months ago, maybe you saw it in the media, a talk at Princeton where he says: my goal, our goal is to bring people provide to people a purpose in life. And I said, My God look, the guy who created Facebook which is the most expanded without any purpose activity in the world, you know. This is another thing that should be investigated. This new type of I wouldn't call them public intellectuals but public figures of wisdom, this new you know Jeff Bezos, Tim Cook, Zuckerberg. I'm almost more afraid of them than of people like Steve Bannon. Yeah. Who is much more interesting. Oh he is horrible don't avoid but did you read what he recently said? He ferociously attacked Trump's tax plan. He said no for the rich people we should raise it to percent taxes and so on. And this is the sadder thing, the alt-right is taking from us irony. Even, it's a comical reversal, even today only the right in power almost proto-fascist right can still risk to do some good old welfare social measures. Look at Poland, I had this example. they have now this order and justice law and justice ultra-conservative power the Kaczyński guy the surviving brother. Yes. You know what they enacted a year ago? Incredible reforms. They lowered the retirement age, they raised they raised pensions what you get. They better better student loans, better health better healthcare for all. What no leftists dares to do today. And on the opposite side on the opposite side this the sad lesson from Greece and it was a great wisdom of Europe to allow Syriza to stay in power. The only if you have to do tough austerity you should put pressure on the left to do it. Because imagine that now the right would have been
months ago, maybe you saw it in the media, a talk at Princeton where he says: my goal, our goal is to bring people provide to people a purpose in life. And I said, My God look, the guy who created Facebook which is the most expanded without any purpose activity in the world, you know. This is another thing that should be investigated. This new type of I wouldn't call them public intellectuals but public figures of wisdom, this new you know Jeff Bezos, Tim Cook, Zuckerberg. I'm almost more afraid of them than of people like Steve Bannon. Yeah. Who is much more interesting. Oh he is horrible don't avoid but did you read what he recently said? He ferociously attacked Trump's tax plan. He said no for the rich people we should raise it to percent taxes and so on. And this is the sadder thing, the alt-right is taking from us irony. Even, it's a comical reversal, even today only the right in power almost proto-fascist right can still risk to do some good old welfare social measures. Look at Poland, I had this example. they have now this order and justice law and justice ultra-conservative power the Kaczyński guy the surviving brother. Yes. You know what they enacted a year ago? Incredible reforms. They lowered the retirement age, they raised they raised pensions what you get. They better better student loans, better health better healthcare for all. What no leftists dares to do today. And on the opposite side on the opposite side this the sad lesson from Greece and it was a great wisdom of Europe to allow Syriza to stay in power. The only if you have to do tough austerity you should put pressure on the left to do it. Because imagine that now the right would have been
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in power in Greece. Syriza would have organized demonstrations
in power in Greece. Syriza would have organized demonstrations
Slavoj Žižek
all the time. Now the result is perfect. Radical radical demoralization and so on, depoliticization and so on, you know. This this is and another thing bring us to our topic. Yes. I've written I don't know where about it recently. Uh. Not just the good irony but this use of obscenity in a anti-emancipatory whatever we call it conservative way. I was shocked to discover that friends friends send me documents it's all true, you can even check it on the web. The same Kaczyński brother, staunch conservative moral majority, you know what he did a couple of years ago when his party won the election, the journalist of the biggest daily newspaper and then this was repeated on TV, he stood by it. Ask him what's your program now, what do you want to do? And he said: don't worry about program, then he used an extremely obscene expression in Polish, teraz kurwa my, which means now it's our turn my turn to fuck the whore. It's a vulgar expression from the military you know when there is a prostitute and waiters sorry soldiers wait in line and then okay you fucked her now it's my turn to do it. Now is this interesting? It tells you a lot about this alt-right neocon identity. I don't think this is any subversive undermining. Neocons are structured precisely like that. It's which is why I
all the time. Now the result is perfect. Radical radical demoralization and so on, depoliticization and so on, you know. This this is and another thing bring us to our topic. Yes. I've written I don't know where about it recently. Uh. Not just the good irony but this use of obscenity in a anti-emancipatory whatever we call it conservative way. I was shocked to discover that friends friends send me documents it's all true, you can even check it on the web. The same Kaczyński brother, staunch conservative moral majority, you know what he did a couple of years ago when his party won the election, the journalist of the biggest daily newspaper and then this was repeated on TV, he stood by it. Ask him what's your program now, what do you want to do? And he said: don't worry about program, then he used an extremely obscene expression in Polish, teraz kurwa my, which means now it's our turn my turn to fuck the whore. It's a vulgar expression from the military you know when there is a prostitute and waiters sorry soldiers wait in line and then okay you fucked her now it's my turn to do it. Now is this interesting? It tells you a lot about this alt-right neocon identity. I don't think this is any subversive undermining. Neocons are structured precisely like that. It's which is why I
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don't see any contradiction in the fact that conservatives still more or less support Trump knowing that he is an obscene guy and so on. They identify
don't see any contradiction in the fact that conservatives still more or less support Trump knowing that he is an obscene guy and so on. They identify
Slavoj Žižek
with him precisely because of that and the leftist liberal is so stupid they didn't see it. Yes. Where I'm against humor in the sense of it just strengthens the system. Okay, I watch them, I love but John Stewart and now John Oliver. I'm a little bit tired of this endless making fun of Trump. On and on and at the end he will be re-elected when. Well and does it, does it normalize him? I mean by making fun of him. That's the word! Yeah. You normalize. Is satire toothless ultimately? Because it sort of encourages the. But the problem is that this satire, I'm not saying we should take him seriously, but the catch is that first we should take his politics seriously. He knows, he's not just a clown, he knows what he's doing. And you know what's for me the true problem? Look, Trump is nightmare, but at least he has okay I wouldn't call it a human side but inconsistencies but I think we all who still care for freedom should pray to God that Trump is not impeached because then we get Mike Pence who is worse! Much worse. He truly is the conservative. He's what people are afraid Trump is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So again my idea would be that this is why today ideology is so efficient because you cannot undermine it through irony, sarcasm. It's doing that job better than ourselves my God. Yes, yes. So how so that shift that when the left, the left wing was tweaking the right wing you had Nixon in power, but eventually they incorporated the left wing, the counterculture into the culture. I think that based on this, I don't always agree with far from it he is too naive manipulated by Putin Oliver Stone, but did you see his Nixon movie? Yes. It's very interesting, he half rehabilitates Nixon and I tell you, look, if you look from today retroactively, my leftist friends told me: look, he did peace with China. If you look at social spending for students healthcare, Nixon was most social-oriented welfare president. I think it's unfair this this. He was the last tragic president. Yes. Afterwards it was this Teflon presidency Reagan who already introduced this comical self-distance in a bad way. I remember I couldn't believe it, once a journalist asked in one of the few then he stopped free press conferences Reagan about some point, and Reagan simply said why are you asking me this, you know that I'm too stupid to answer you now. You know where where self-depreciation is part of the way, and here I am almost for standard dignity. My God, sorry, president is not there to make bad taste jokes. President should stand for some kind of dignity and so on. Well he was also he was also dismissed before he became president as a comical buffoon. He was in the Bedtime for Bonzo movies with the chimp. He was not taken seriously and kind of in the same way as Trump. He was sort of a joke and somehow that joke reinforced people's desire. But that's my point, that's why I, although I never did that I was a, I comically pseudo-supported Trump. My point is that the true problem is not Trump, the true problem is the deep disorientation of the Democratic party. Yes. That's why they are, I'm no fan of Putin, probably they did mess with the election but in the same way that United States are messing with everything, yes. But my point is that nonetheless it's clear that this was not the ultimate reason. The ultimate reason was how Hillary and her wing brutally got rid of Bernie Sanders and manipulated, and now nobody is asking now it's again it's like blame the Jews. Now Putin is now the Jew instead of asking the self-critical question. Such an obvious idiot like Trump, how could we have lost against this guy? Oh it's an easy answer, blame the Russians, we don't have to change and so on. Right. I'm not a naive guy claiming even first Sanders has his limitations and so on but what is welcome with him is that he is simply returning back to this basic economic questions and so on. And I think when you asked me how did we end up with this irony and so on, I think the problem was this even fight against racism was culturalized. In what sense? Did you notice how today when the topic of racism, race is automatically translated into the topic of tolerance. Right. Are we harassed? Do we tolerate the other? But sorry, make a simple test which I did. Download Martin Luther King's writing and speeches. He never talks about tolerance and so on. It would be ridiculous for him to say what we blacks want to be more tolerated or what. This is how instead of asking radical economic and so on questions, if I am a racist towards you, all of a sudden the problem is why don't I tolerate you and why what problems do I have so in a kind of I should do a kind of collective psychoanalysis my group. That's that's that's a problem and I'm here going to the end and even here we have ideology in everyday life today. Take My God smoking. Okay. I am opposed to smoking but I find suspicious all the ideological energy invested in it. You know the idea is it's harassing us. Right. But you know quite often in our politically correct times, harassment is itself a very suspicious term. It basically means I don't tolerate you another human being, and a human being means a desiring being with all small obscenities and so on. You shouldn't come too close to me. Right. It's a censorship in a way. Yeah, don't come too close to me. Keep at a distance. That's why we are today so absolutely obsessed like take sexuality. Like if I it happened to me, if I it wasn't obscene staring, I simply am myopic and a lady I had to look at her and I was told uh visual rape. Oh! Then with my way of talking you can imagine how I get verbal rape, all rapes except of course never the real one. But what I'm saying is that isn't there a very sad picture of a human being beneath this? It's somebody who is all the time threatened, all the time under pressure and the big task is just to keep to keep others at a distance, you know. And that's what I fear I find clear traces in this about this in anti-antismoking. You know what we are really I think there is a deep lesson here that that uh
with him precisely because of that and the leftist liberal is so stupid they didn't see it. Yes. Where I'm against humor in the sense of it just strengthens the system. Okay, I watch them, I love but John Stewart and now John Oliver. I'm a little bit tired of this endless making fun of Trump. On and on and at the end he will be re-elected when. Well and does it, does it normalize him? I mean by making fun of him. That's the word! Yeah. You normalize. Is satire toothless ultimately? Because it sort of encourages the. But the problem is that this satire, I'm not saying we should take him seriously, but the catch is that first we should take his politics seriously. He knows, he's not just a clown, he knows what he's doing. And you know what's for me the true problem? Look, Trump is nightmare, but at least he has okay I wouldn't call it a human side but inconsistencies but I think we all who still care for freedom should pray to God that Trump is not impeached because then we get Mike Pence who is worse! Much worse. He truly is the conservative. He's what people are afraid Trump is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So again my idea would be that this is why today ideology is so efficient because you cannot undermine it through irony, sarcasm. It's doing that job better than ourselves my God. Yes, yes. So how so that shift that when the left, the left wing was tweaking the right wing you had Nixon in power, but eventually they incorporated the left wing, the counterculture into the culture. I think that based on this, I don't always agree with far from it he is too naive manipulated by Putin Oliver Stone, but did you see his Nixon movie? Yes. It's very interesting, he half rehabilitates Nixon and I tell you, look, if you look from today retroactively, my leftist friends told me: look, he did peace with China. If you look at social spending for students healthcare, Nixon was most social-oriented welfare president. I think it's unfair this this. He was the last tragic president. Yes. Afterwards it was this Teflon presidency Reagan who already introduced this comical self-distance in a bad way. I remember I couldn't believe it, once a journalist asked in one of the few then he stopped free press conferences Reagan about some point, and Reagan simply said why are you asking me this, you know that I'm too stupid to answer you now. You know where where self-depreciation is part of the way, and here I am almost for standard dignity. My God, sorry, president is not there to make bad taste jokes. President should stand for some kind of dignity and so on. Well he was also he was also dismissed before he became president as a comical buffoon. He was in the Bedtime for Bonzo movies with the chimp. He was not taken seriously and kind of in the same way as Trump. He was sort of a joke and somehow that joke reinforced people's desire. But that's my point, that's why I, although I never did that I was a, I comically pseudo-supported Trump. My point is that the true problem is not Trump, the true problem is the deep disorientation of the Democratic party. Yes. That's why they are, I'm no fan of Putin, probably they did mess with the election but in the same way that United States are messing with everything, yes. But my point is that nonetheless it's clear that this was not the ultimate reason. The ultimate reason was how Hillary and her wing brutally got rid of Bernie Sanders and manipulated, and now nobody is asking now it's again it's like blame the Jews. Now Putin is now the Jew instead of asking the self-critical question. Such an obvious idiot like Trump, how could we have lost against this guy? Oh it's an easy answer, blame the Russians, we don't have to change and so on. Right. I'm not a naive guy claiming even first Sanders has his limitations and so on but what is welcome with him is that he is simply returning back to this basic economic questions and so on. And I think when you asked me how did we end up with this irony and so on, I think the problem was this even fight against racism was culturalized. In what sense? Did you notice how today when the topic of racism, race is automatically translated into the topic of tolerance. Right. Are we harassed? Do we tolerate the other? But sorry, make a simple test which I did. Download Martin Luther King's writing and speeches. He never talks about tolerance and so on. It would be ridiculous for him to say what we blacks want to be more tolerated or what. This is how instead of asking radical economic and so on questions, if I am a racist towards you, all of a sudden the problem is why don't I tolerate you and why what problems do I have so in a kind of I should do a kind of collective psychoanalysis my group. That's that's that's a problem and I'm here going to the end and even here we have ideology in everyday life today. Take My God smoking. Okay. I am opposed to smoking but I find suspicious all the ideological energy invested in it. You know the idea is it's harassing us. Right. But you know quite often in our politically correct times, harassment is itself a very suspicious term. It basically means I don't tolerate you another human being, and a human being means a desiring being with all small obscenities and so on. You shouldn't come too close to me. Right. It's a censorship in a way. Yeah, don't come too close to me. Keep at a distance. That's why we are today so absolutely obsessed like take sexuality. Like if I it happened to me, if I it wasn't obscene staring, I simply am myopic and a lady I had to look at her and I was told uh visual rape. Oh! Then with my way of talking you can imagine how I get verbal rape, all rapes except of course never the real one. But what I'm saying is that isn't there a very sad picture of a human being beneath this? It's somebody who is all the time threatened, all the time under pressure and the big task is just to keep to keep others at a distance, you know. And that's what I fear I find clear traces in this about this in anti-antismoking. You know what we are really I think there is a deep lesson here that that uh
unknown
that we don't really live in a
that we don't really live in a
Slavoj Žižek
consumerist
consumerist
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society. We live in a society of controlled consumerism.
society. We live in a society of controlled consumerism.
Slavoj Žižek
Like I always use that joke you know like drink beer but without alcohol, chocolate but without sugar, sausage but without fat. We want and in sexuality we call this safe sex, just no true consumerists would be drug addicts whatever where you I'm not saying we should do this I'm just saying how. But that's true freedom, the freedom to be able to overdo it, to make a mistake, those kind of things. Yeah, yeah and how false how false this idea of that we live in no we live in an extremely tightly controlled. That's why maybe this will interest you, I understand this turn towards aggressive fundamentalism. One of my big experiences was that when Milošević was still in power I half illegally I was afraid even to be arrested I visited from Slovenia Serbia and I have one of the encounters of my lifetime in a in a small cafeteria in Belgrade where at a nearby table
Like I always use that joke you know like drink beer but without alcohol, chocolate but without sugar, sausage but without fat. We want and in sexuality we call this safe sex, just no true consumerists would be drug addicts whatever where you I'm not saying we should do this I'm just saying how. But that's true freedom, the freedom to be able to overdo it, to make a mistake, those kind of things. Yeah, yeah and how false how false this idea of that we live in no we live in an extremely tightly controlled. That's why maybe this will interest you, I understand this turn towards aggressive fundamentalism. One of my big experiences was that when Milošević was still in power I half illegally I was afraid even to be arrested I visited from Slovenia Serbia and I have one of the encounters of my lifetime in a in a small cafeteria in Belgrade where at a nearby table
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were some fanatical Serb nationalists, probably ethnic murderers and so on. And I'm crazy I got in conversation with them. And it's incredible
were some fanatical Serb nationalists, probably ethnic murderers and so on. And I'm crazy I got in conversation with them. And it's incredible
Slavoj Žižek
what they told me. You know I tried to pursue this standard leftist line, you know that today we live in the domain of new
what they told me. You know I tried to pursue this standard leftist line, you know that today we live in the domain of new
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freedom, society is changing, you have to improvise
freedom, society is changing, you have to improvise
Slavoj Žižek
all the time, no old values, and that they are afraid of freedom, they take refuges in old values. And they gave me the answer of my lifetime. They told me: no, sorry, we are not afraid of freedoms of Western liberal society. We experience it as so tightly regulated. You cannot swear, you this. For us being a nationalist means freedom. I can go to Bosnia I rape women I kill and so on. That's true freedom. Yeah and that's and the same goes for ISIS. It's not just fanaticism. You are one of them, you can get slaves they deal with drugs and so on. What to understand ISIS you absolutely have to include all this very sensual vulgar corruption they gave to their privileged fighters and so on. You know? And again so the problem for me is this culturalization of struggle which is in itself I'm not blaming those in power, I'm not paranoiac, it's the really sad thing behind all of this and I'm saying this as still a kind of leftist
all the time, no old values, and that they are afraid of freedom, they take refuges in old values. And they gave me the answer of my lifetime. They told me: no, sorry, we are not afraid of freedoms of Western liberal society. We experience it as so tightly regulated. You cannot swear, you this. For us being a nationalist means freedom. I can go to Bosnia I rape women I kill and so on. That's true freedom. Yeah and that's and the same goes for ISIS. It's not just fanaticism. You are one of them, you can get slaves they deal with drugs and so on. What to understand ISIS you absolutely have to include all this very sensual vulgar corruption they gave to their privileged fighters and so on. You know? And again so the problem for me is this culturalization of struggle which is in itself I'm not blaming those in power, I'm not paranoiac, it's the really sad thing behind all of this and I'm saying this as still a kind of leftist
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believer. Look, people always complain Syriza betrayed the left, Chavez regime got corrupted. Okay but what is the solution? Do we have at all a leftist vision what to do with our society which would propose a true alternative? I claim that almost all leftists today are what we ironically call left Fukuyamaists.
believer. Look, people always complain Syriza betrayed the left, Chavez regime got corrupted. Okay but what is the solution? Do we have at all a leftist vision what to do with our society which would propose a true alternative? I claim that almost all leftists today are what we ironically call left Fukuyamaists.
Slavoj Žižek
They accept the system the way it is just you know a little bit more gay rights, abortion, healthcare, less racism. But nobody has a serious idea because Stalinist state socialism it's not only that, there is a more beautiful irony there. That where communists are still in power they turn out to be the best managers of today's capitalism. China, Part Communist Party is certainly doing an excellent job of regulating capitalism. So communism turns out to be the best system for capitalism to thrive. To thrive, absolutely! That's right. Then standard social democracy it no longer works. The left doesn't have a vision. So what you do in such a situation is you moralize. Yes. You know, especially you moralize it in such a safe way where you know that big business this is even better will be fully behind you. It's palatable to big business. Absolutely palatable! All that. and so and another problem I have, I wonder what do you do with this, because LGBT plus people. What got me into trouble with them is that I pointed out how you know they always have these problems with classification. And even some here in New York some state authority officially composed a list of sex identities. You know butch, double sex, asexual, triple sex, so that each of us can avoid just masculine feminine and pick. But you know what's the tragic misunderstanding here? I think, that's my lesson from psychoanalysis. Sexuality itself is an enigma precisely you never have a fixed identity. Yes. And while LGBT people criticize this fixed identity, masculine feminine, they just want to replace it with a wider set of identities as if if I have a wider choice I will be able to say, okay, I am this. And the true comedy begins with this plus. Like let's be liberal and include all the. Uh I don't think this
They accept the system the way it is just you know a little bit more gay rights, abortion, healthcare, less racism. But nobody has a serious idea because Stalinist state socialism it's not only that, there is a more beautiful irony there. That where communists are still in power they turn out to be the best managers of today's capitalism. China, Part Communist Party is certainly doing an excellent job of regulating capitalism. So communism turns out to be the best system for capitalism to thrive. To thrive, absolutely! That's right. Then standard social democracy it no longer works. The left doesn't have a vision. So what you do in such a situation is you moralize. Yes. You know, especially you moralize it in such a safe way where you know that big business this is even better will be fully behind you. It's palatable to big business. Absolutely palatable! All that. and so and another problem I have, I wonder what do you do with this, because LGBT plus people. What got me into trouble with them is that I pointed out how you know they always have these problems with classification. And even some here in New York some state authority officially composed a list of sex identities. You know butch, double sex, asexual, triple sex, so that each of us can avoid just masculine feminine and pick. But you know what's the tragic misunderstanding here? I think, that's my lesson from psychoanalysis. Sexuality itself is an enigma precisely you never have a fixed identity. Yes. And while LGBT people criticize this fixed identity, masculine feminine, they just want to replace it with a wider set of identities as if if I have a wider choice I will be able to say, okay, I am this. And the true comedy begins with this plus. Like let's be liberal and include all the. Uh I don't think this
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classificatory
classificatory
Slavoj Žižek
way is the right way out. Well, first you know also I don't like this playful ontology. They like to say we don't have fixed identities, we just jump, today I'm gay, tomorrow I'm bisexual. Identify this way today, identify that way. Yeah, yeah. Wait a minute. Did they, I often ask myself, is this people, did they really speak? I did, with some tragic transgender people. Let's say you are bodily a man, you want to become a woman. This is not fluid identity. You know very well what you want to be and you are ready to suffer a lot, these operations are not fun. No. So I think we should there is something terribly wrong how LGBT topic was occupied by a certain postmodern ideology of just changing identities and everything is a game, we just fluidly pass from one identity to the other. And this is absolutely crucial to see how this LGBT fluidification whatever and I think the neocon reaction are two sides of the same coin. Yes, right. But that's not popular to say today. You get lynched. Right, right. Let let me ask you I I want to go back to Trump for a second and the idea of of politically incorrect or obscene humor because do you think that he tapped into a certain id-like level of the public by being so disrespectful in his humor? He called people Pocahontas, crooked Hillary. Absolutely! But I don't think, but I don't think that it's simply. Working class interfering in high intellectual debate. Where is KGB? Put them discover the Trotsky's plot behind. Yeah this is a, this is a sabotage. No, no what I'm saying is that I think that it's simply I wouldn't call it id, it's an obscene superego. Okay. Uh I don't think even I always have this perverse idea that when Trump is doing that, he is not just enjoying it, in a weird sense he feels this as a duty, you know. I like this paradox of to enjoy to be obscene as some kind of a twisted duty. This is one of the most insightful realizations of psychoanalysis how enjoyment itself and all can function as an obscene duty. All my psychoanalytic friends are telling me how a typical patient today is no longer the one who has some illicit desire, I want to do sex in that dirty way but because I have internalized some strict norms I feel guilty. No, no, no. Typical patient today would like to enjoy but feels unable to, he feels guilty not for having illicit desires to enjoy but not being able to enjoy. So the task of psychoanalysis today treatment is not so much to enable you to enjoy, but to get rid of this perverse superego dimension. Right. You are allowed to enjoy but you are not obliged to enjoy. Right, right. That's our tragedy today. This superego pressure. So I think with Trump it's it's more his superego is precisely explodes in this violent obscenities and again we should get it as I already said that all his stupid obscenities. You know what would be maybe a way to hit at Trump? Maybe they did it but the way I would have done it is to have a really good comedian to criticize him not for disrespectful bad but to criticize him as: sorry guy you are not our competition, your jokes are not good enough. Right. and tell Trump's jokes and rewrite like please insult us or gays at least in a better way, do it like this, better material. Better material! Yeah! Pocahontas isn't that clever! Isn't that clever? Yeah I mean maybe this would have worked better I'm not. Because it's true there's there's a flood of so-called satire directed to Trump and it seems to only have normalized him, only have to have increased his acceptance. Absolutely! So sad! Absolutely! And again it doesn't do. That's back that's satire backfiring in a sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So again the point is that the left, the emancipatory movement should be at the same time paradoxically it can be done more serious, moralistic and more comical in an authentic way. Because you know nonetheless this was my idea and you find elements of this with Corbyn in Unit in United Kingdom, with Sanders here. In a way isn't Sanders the mystery of Sanders' success as in so many is that he was if the term moral majority has any authentic meaning he is much more than Trump some kind of authentic moral majority. Yes. I mean the fury of ordinary people and so on and so on. So I think the this the way how the right wingers themselves are becoming dirty obscene gives us a chance to try to occupy that terrain, to say sorry guys we are the true moral majority. Yeah. You are the dirty obscene transgressors. We should use this opportunity. Yeah, I don't think the Democrats seem to have the willingness, the flexibility, the fluidity to be able to make that change. Yeah, they're stuck. and that's one of the problems they're going to have with. But so and that was my hope maybe I was wrong I see. I thought that Trump's victory will unstick them. Yes. Doesn't look as good as. I know that there is now a big fight going on within the Democratic party, Sanders and all those good mostly women. That's wonderful, it's Elizabeth Warren the woman Brazil whatever Donna Brazile. Yeah, yeah. Donna Brazile, and so on. But but unfortunately from what my KGB networks spies are telling
way is the right way out. Well, first you know also I don't like this playful ontology. They like to say we don't have fixed identities, we just jump, today I'm gay, tomorrow I'm bisexual. Identify this way today, identify that way. Yeah, yeah. Wait a minute. Did they, I often ask myself, is this people, did they really speak? I did, with some tragic transgender people. Let's say you are bodily a man, you want to become a woman. This is not fluid identity. You know very well what you want to be and you are ready to suffer a lot, these operations are not fun. No. So I think we should there is something terribly wrong how LGBT topic was occupied by a certain postmodern ideology of just changing identities and everything is a game, we just fluidly pass from one identity to the other. And this is absolutely crucial to see how this LGBT fluidification whatever and I think the neocon reaction are two sides of the same coin. Yes, right. But that's not popular to say today. You get lynched. Right, right. Let let me ask you I I want to go back to Trump for a second and the idea of of politically incorrect or obscene humor because do you think that he tapped into a certain id-like level of the public by being so disrespectful in his humor? He called people Pocahontas, crooked Hillary. Absolutely! But I don't think, but I don't think that it's simply. Working class interfering in high intellectual debate. Where is KGB? Put them discover the Trotsky's plot behind. Yeah this is a, this is a sabotage. No, no what I'm saying is that I think that it's simply I wouldn't call it id, it's an obscene superego. Okay. Uh I don't think even I always have this perverse idea that when Trump is doing that, he is not just enjoying it, in a weird sense he feels this as a duty, you know. I like this paradox of to enjoy to be obscene as some kind of a twisted duty. This is one of the most insightful realizations of psychoanalysis how enjoyment itself and all can function as an obscene duty. All my psychoanalytic friends are telling me how a typical patient today is no longer the one who has some illicit desire, I want to do sex in that dirty way but because I have internalized some strict norms I feel guilty. No, no, no. Typical patient today would like to enjoy but feels unable to, he feels guilty not for having illicit desires to enjoy but not being able to enjoy. So the task of psychoanalysis today treatment is not so much to enable you to enjoy, but to get rid of this perverse superego dimension. Right. You are allowed to enjoy but you are not obliged to enjoy. Right, right. That's our tragedy today. This superego pressure. So I think with Trump it's it's more his superego is precisely explodes in this violent obscenities and again we should get it as I already said that all his stupid obscenities. You know what would be maybe a way to hit at Trump? Maybe they did it but the way I would have done it is to have a really good comedian to criticize him not for disrespectful bad but to criticize him as: sorry guy you are not our competition, your jokes are not good enough. Right. and tell Trump's jokes and rewrite like please insult us or gays at least in a better way, do it like this, better material. Better material! Yeah! Pocahontas isn't that clever! Isn't that clever? Yeah I mean maybe this would have worked better I'm not. Because it's true there's there's a flood of so-called satire directed to Trump and it seems to only have normalized him, only have to have increased his acceptance. Absolutely! So sad! Absolutely! And again it doesn't do. That's back that's satire backfiring in a sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So again the point is that the left, the emancipatory movement should be at the same time paradoxically it can be done more serious, moralistic and more comical in an authentic way. Because you know nonetheless this was my idea and you find elements of this with Corbyn in Unit in United Kingdom, with Sanders here. In a way isn't Sanders the mystery of Sanders' success as in so many is that he was if the term moral majority has any authentic meaning he is much more than Trump some kind of authentic moral majority. Yes. I mean the fury of ordinary people and so on and so on. So I think the this the way how the right wingers themselves are becoming dirty obscene gives us a chance to try to occupy that terrain, to say sorry guys we are the true moral majority. Yeah. You are the dirty obscene transgressors. We should use this opportunity. Yeah, I don't think the Democrats seem to have the willingness, the flexibility, the fluidity to be able to make that change. Yeah, they're stuck. and that's one of the problems they're going to have with. But so and that was my hope maybe I was wrong I see. I thought that Trump's victory will unstick them. Yes. Doesn't look as good as. I know that there is now a big fight going on within the Democratic party, Sanders and all those good mostly women. That's wonderful, it's Elizabeth Warren the woman Brazil whatever Donna Brazile. Yeah, yeah. Donna Brazile, and so on. But but unfortunately from what my KGB networks spies are telling
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me they are losing unfortunately. Yes. The establishment Hillary Nancy Pelosi. Nancy Pelosi, I was
me they are losing unfortunately. Yes. The establishment Hillary Nancy Pelosi. Nancy Pelosi, I was
Slavoj Žižek
horrified half a year ago she normalized Trump she said don't lose nerve Trump we had eight years of Reagan, eight years of Bush, now we have eight years of Trump. No, sorry, Trump is a more radical change. The whole public the whole space of public discourse changed into obscenity. Yes. So again here we leftists should be more moralists. For example to provoke
horrified half a year ago she normalized Trump she said don't lose nerve Trump we had eight years of Reagan, eight years of Bush, now we have eight years of Trump. No, sorry, Trump is a more radical change. The whole public the whole space of public discourse changed into obscenity. Yes. So again here we leftists should be more moralists. For example to provoke
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my friends I often argue for
my friends I often argue for
Slavoj Žižek
dogmatism. In the simple sense of I wouldn't like to live in a society where you have to argue all the time that rape is bad. Right. I would like to live in a society where this is automatically dogmatically accepted. So when you get a guy who starts to argue oh but maybe women enjoy it and so on ask for it you don't have to you just laugh sorry you're a jerk you're an idiot, you know. Yeah. And and this here we are regressing. years ago torture was unmentionable. Okay we were all states I mean not us doing it but it was unmentionable. Now the most horrible thing is that even those who are against torture silently accepted it as a topic. Yes. And that's for me the true I'm not afraid to say this moral decay. Well maybe there's a reverse to that also because I was talking to Trevor Noah yesterday and he brought up the point that people in this society, the American society, have never talked so much about sexual harassment, about ethics in government, about democracy since since Trump has been in office those subjects now are on everybody's mind. Maybe in the long run it'll have a. Let's hope because the problem I almost more fear that it will just especially since under Trump it's horrible I cross
dogmatism. In the simple sense of I wouldn't like to live in a society where you have to argue all the time that rape is bad. Right. I would like to live in a society where this is automatically dogmatically accepted. So when you get a guy who starts to argue oh but maybe women enjoy it and so on ask for it you don't have to you just laugh sorry you're a jerk you're an idiot, you know. Yeah. And and this here we are regressing. years ago torture was unmentionable. Okay we were all states I mean not us doing it but it was unmentionable. Now the most horrible thing is that even those who are against torture silently accepted it as a topic. Yes. And that's for me the true I'm not afraid to say this moral decay. Well maybe there's a reverse to that also because I was talking to Trevor Noah yesterday and he brought up the point that people in this society, the American society, have never talked so much about sexual harassment, about ethics in government, about democracy since since Trump has been in office those subjects now are on everybody's mind. Maybe in the long run it'll have a. Let's hope because the problem I almost more fear that it will just especially since under Trump it's horrible I cross
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myself for saying it
myself for saying it
Slavoj Žižek
economy is not doing too bad. Right, that was the irony. So it's quite possible that it will just serve this renormalization of Trump in a yes yes. You know imagine a typical hypocritical left liberal. You have a government whom you can fully despise, at the same time you are not doing so bad economically. Right, that was the irony. and they like to be opposition. That's the ideal! Yes, yes. That's the ideal space. Right, I like I could be against the tax cuts and yet they will benefit me actually. You know that's the irony too. You know people who are actually against a lot of these liberal policies don't really benefit from them at all, but they benefit from the opposite. But here I almost admire Trump because it's now more or less proven that only the rich will profit, even middle classes will lose. Yes. And he still
economy is not doing too bad. Right, that was the irony. So it's quite possible that it will just serve this renormalization of Trump in a yes yes. You know imagine a typical hypocritical left liberal. You have a government whom you can fully despise, at the same time you are not doing so bad economically. Right, that was the irony. and they like to be opposition. That's the ideal! Yes, yes. That's the ideal space. Right, I like I could be against the tax cuts and yet they will benefit me actually. You know that's the irony too. You know people who are actually against a lot of these liberal policies don't really benefit from them at all, but they benefit from the opposite. But here I almost admire Trump because it's now more or less proven that only the rich will profit, even middle classes will lose. Yes. And he still
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maybe he I almost begin to think but maybe he is a secret genius, he knows how to you know we we normal people we made one mistake, we still take argumentation seriously. So when we lie we manipulate a little bit, we lie with the guilt feeling. We should learn from those guys, true lie is I look you into the eye and just repeat it. Yes. and
maybe he I almost begin to think but maybe he is a secret genius, he knows how to you know we we normal people we made one mistake, we still take argumentation seriously. So when we lie we manipulate a little bit, we lie with the guilt feeling. We should learn from those guys, true lie is I look you into the eye and just repeat it. Yes. and
Slavoj Žižek
when you prove me with data that I'm wrong you say something like oh now you are diverting the debate to minor causes, you are avoiding the key issue, you're all you have all these empty rhetorical. Yes, yes. Well what do you think about that idea that Trump is using? I talked to somebody who was talking about the idea that Trump was a fan of Norman Vincent Peale and positive thinking and so that he while he while people are complaining about things that he said about the past he's already describing the future. He's creating a future for the people that are sort of in his trance while the rest of us are complaining about something he's already done that's already happened. That's a very good analysis as I think Trump maybe even half consciously plays this game. He is a master of diverting maybe even all his obscenities serve precisely like you guys make fun of me with my obscenities and let me to do secretly the real business of tax cuts of and so on. Yes, yes. That's it, it seems like we get distracted very easily and then the his agenda gets played out, you know. It's sad, it's sad, yes. Talk to me if you would, can- first of all, so can comedy be revolutionary? Are there situations where comedy can be because we're talking about comedy kind of in some ways satire sort of confirming the power structure rather than breaking it down. You caught me here because although intuitively I see the I see clearly this distinction between let's call it establishment use of comedy and the I wouldn't call use the big word revolutionary but emancipatory pointing towards change use of comedy. I think it can but it depends on the presuppositions of comedy in to what type of politics and I don't mean just content it is attached. A certain comedy can be where where for example the model of Middle European comedy Jaroslav Hašek, *The Good Soldier Švejk*. Okay. Usually people take this as the ultimate this conformist comedy of oh life is a joke, but I like Hašek. You know just a couple of years before he wrote *Švejk*, you know what was he, in Russian Civil War, polit-commissar of a whole division in Siberia. He was radical there. So I think that I think there is
when you prove me with data that I'm wrong you say something like oh now you are diverting the debate to minor causes, you are avoiding the key issue, you're all you have all these empty rhetorical. Yes, yes. Well what do you think about that idea that Trump is using? I talked to somebody who was talking about the idea that Trump was a fan of Norman Vincent Peale and positive thinking and so that he while he while people are complaining about things that he said about the past he's already describing the future. He's creating a future for the people that are sort of in his trance while the rest of us are complaining about something he's already done that's already happened. That's a very good analysis as I think Trump maybe even half consciously plays this game. He is a master of diverting maybe even all his obscenities serve precisely like you guys make fun of me with my obscenities and let me to do secretly the real business of tax cuts of and so on. Yes, yes. That's it, it seems like we get distracted very easily and then the his agenda gets played out, you know. It's sad, it's sad, yes. Talk to me if you would, can- first of all, so can comedy be revolutionary? Are there situations where comedy can be because we're talking about comedy kind of in some ways satire sort of confirming the power structure rather than breaking it down. You caught me here because although intuitively I see the I see clearly this distinction between let's call it establishment use of comedy and the I wouldn't call use the big word revolutionary but emancipatory pointing towards change use of comedy. I think it can but it depends on the presuppositions of comedy in to what type of politics and I don't mean just content it is attached. A certain comedy can be where where for example the model of Middle European comedy Jaroslav Hašek, *The Good Soldier Švejk*. Okay. Usually people take this as the ultimate this conformist comedy of oh life is a joke, but I like Hašek. You know just a couple of years before he wrote *Švejk*, you know what was he, in Russian Civil War, polit-commissar of a whole division in Siberia. He was radical there. So I think that I think there is
unknown
if you we can learn one thing from Charles Dickens well. Okay. I appreciate Dickens, he had his dark side, anti-Semitism, how you can combine a spirit of
if you we can learn one thing from Charles Dickens well. Okay. I appreciate Dickens, he had his dark side, anti-Semitism, how you can combine a spirit of
Slavoj Žižek
satire comedy with extremely serious moral commitment. It can be done. Yes. Where I disagree with comedy is
satire comedy with extremely serious moral commitment. It can be done. Yes. Where I disagree with comedy is
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that when it turns into a kind
that when it turns into a kind
Slavoj Žižek
of deep life wisdom, you know, oh don't take things seriously, it's just a joke and so on. I think the most conformist thing is to play this game of politics is a whore, she don't care about it, don't get caught into it and so on and so on. My idea would be to unify the most ruthless irony comedy with the most even fanatical committed committed politics. Right, right. Well that's what I want to ask you, how like the relationship between violence and comedy? I mean does the violence, does the violence somehow make that comedy more powerful? Is that is there is? It depends on what do we mean by violence. I got as you maybe know into many troubles with this. Right, right. But my point is a very simple one. My point is that when we talk about violence we should avoid the trap of simply narrowing violence to violence of changing things. Yes. What about the violence which has to go on all the time just to keep things running the way they are? That's the first step for me.
of deep life wisdom, you know, oh don't take things seriously, it's just a joke and so on. I think the most conformist thing is to play this game of politics is a whore, she don't care about it, don't get caught into it and so on and so on. My idea would be to unify the most ruthless irony comedy with the most even fanatical committed committed politics. Right, right. Well that's what I want to ask you, how like the relationship between violence and comedy? I mean does the violence, does the violence somehow make that comedy more powerful? Is that is there is? It depends on what do we mean by violence. I got as you maybe know into many troubles with this. Right, right. But my point is a very simple one. My point is that when we talk about violence we should avoid the trap of simply narrowing violence to violence of changing things. Yes. What about the violence which has to go on all the time just to keep things running the way they are? That's the first step for me.
unknown
What about the violence which is going on all the time? Right, the mundane everyday violence, yes. Second thing if I try to rehabilitate violence in some sense it's more as I always emphasized violence of not doing things in the
What about the violence which is going on all the time? Right, the mundane everyday violence, yes. Second thing if I try to rehabilitate violence in some sense it's more as I always emphasized violence of not doing things in the
Slavoj Žižek
sense of when you are expected to do something if you just stay back and don't participate. It can be extremely violent but in a good
sense of when you are expected to do something if you just stay back and don't participate. It can be extremely violent but in a good
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sense of answer. For example I quoted
sense of answer. For example I quoted
Slavoj Žižek
precisely in that violence book of mine that Saramago novel the wonderful one you know where people refuse to vote, the whole system is in a panic, emergency state and so on and so on. We should and it's not the Gandhian violence
precisely in that violence book of mine that Saramago novel the wonderful one you know where people refuse to vote, the whole system is in a panic, emergency state and so on and so on. We should and it's not the Gandhian violence
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which
which
Slavoj Žižek
is non-violence. Okay or maybe they are connected I think that my model of violence is what Gandhi called non-violence. And once I even it shocked the people in India I claimed I like Gandhi although not totally, it's another story Gandhi was for castes he played another game, but his non-violence, okay my shocking statement was that the problem with Hitler is that he wasn't violent enough, Gandhi was more violent than Hitler. Then told are you crazy or what? My Jewish friend told me, are you telling me that they should kill all of us more? No, I told them Hitler's violence was in Nietzsche's sense a reactive violence. It was a violence to basically save the system the way it is. It was a violence to prevent change to keep things going on while Gandhi with his non-violence his aim was a very brutal one to undermine the basic functioning of the British system. Yes. and I think the art of politics would have been this one to engage in this type of violence where it's not blood, it's just you really hit the system. Yes, that would be that would be my type of violence. And back to humor, I think we should admit it in a way of course humor is violent. Yes. And also I will go even a step further. Sexuality is immanently humorous. Right.
is non-violence. Okay or maybe they are connected I think that my model of violence is what Gandhi called non-violence. And once I even it shocked the people in India I claimed I like Gandhi although not totally, it's another story Gandhi was for castes he played another game, but his non-violence, okay my shocking statement was that the problem with Hitler is that he wasn't violent enough, Gandhi was more violent than Hitler. Then told are you crazy or what? My Jewish friend told me, are you telling me that they should kill all of us more? No, I told them Hitler's violence was in Nietzsche's sense a reactive violence. It was a violence to basically save the system the way it is. It was a violence to prevent change to keep things going on while Gandhi with his non-violence his aim was a very brutal one to undermine the basic functioning of the British system. Yes. and I think the art of politics would have been this one to engage in this type of violence where it's not blood, it's just you really hit the system. Yes, that would be that would be my type of violence. And back to humor, I think we should admit it in a way of course humor is violent. Yes. And also I will go even a step further. Sexuality is immanently humorous. Right.
unknown
I mean there is something at all levels, like the British joke, it's a very primitive one, but it says something truthful. You know that a classical upper class that a guy a lord is practicing push-ups and the butler approaches him and said: his lordship maybe didn't notice that the lady already
I mean there is something at all levels, like the British joke, it's a very primitive one, but it says something truthful. You know that a classical upper class that a guy a lord is practicing push-ups and the butler approaches him and said: his lordship maybe didn't notice that the lady already
Slavoj Žižek
left half an hour ago? I mean there is something absolutely nonsensical in all this love parade and so on in sexuality. And at the same time
left half an hour ago? I mean there is something absolutely nonsensical in all this love parade and so on in sexuality. And at the same time
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violent you know in what sense.
violent you know in what sense.
Slavoj Žižek
I read a very good feminist analysis of all these politically correct rules, a critical feminist analysis of this most radical political correctness where it's again don't be violent don't harass me. And she the lady came to a paradoxical result that the in this sense the only totally
I read a very good feminist analysis of all these politically correct rules, a critical feminist analysis of this most radical political correctness where it's again don't be violent don't harass me. And she the lady came to a paradoxical result that the in this sense the only totally
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politically correct sex would have been the most contractual one. We we write a kind of consensual agreement this that and so on. A contract. Contract! Yes! Contractual sex is then in
politically correct sex would have been the most contractual one. We we write a kind of consensual agreement this that and so on. A contract. Contract! Yes! Contractual sex is then in
Slavoj Žižek
a way the only. Because it's a clean transaction, there's no. It's transaction, yes. Otherwise isn't it that every sex is violent,
a way the only. Because it's a clean transaction, there's no. It's transaction, yes. Otherwise isn't it that every sex is violent,
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first that before you pass to the act you have
first that before you pass to the act you have
Slavoj Žižek
this game of innuendos and so on where of course if you feel offended you can claim it's harassment. But it is harassment. If I want to seduce a lady or whomever I'm proposing something which is extremely intrusive I mean. So this is the and then I claim there is no way out here. You know when you do the then we have this implicit innuendo that somebody usually in our society is man, but also women can do it and here I'm somebody then must make a pass in the sense of you openly do a gesture which means you want it. But this is a mysterious moment of ambiguity because the other the attacked side if the answer is no he or she can
this game of innuendos and so on where of course if you feel offended you can claim it's harassment. But it is harassment. If I want to seduce a lady or whomever I'm proposing something which is extremely intrusive I mean. So this is the and then I claim there is no way out here. You know when you do the then we have this implicit innuendo that somebody usually in our society is man, but also women can do it and here I'm somebody then must make a pass in the sense of you openly do a gesture which means you want it. But this is a mysterious moment of ambiguity because the other the attacked side if the answer is no he or she can
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always claim it was a brutal intrusion because it is a brutal intrusion. Yes. The only fair thing for me is absolutely to admit that you can in no way clearly separate in sex this violent this politically correct seduction consensual from the violent. At some psychic level violence is part of the game. Sex is a violent intrusion. Yes. And not in spite of its pleasure. There is an intricate way how this violent part is even conditioning its most its most pleasurable. It's a
always claim it was a brutal intrusion because it is a brutal intrusion. Yes. The only fair thing for me is absolutely to admit that you can in no way clearly separate in sex this violent this politically correct seduction consensual from the violent. At some psychic level violence is part of the game. Sex is a violent intrusion. Yes. And not in spite of its pleasure. There is an intricate way how this violent part is even conditioning its most its most pleasurable. It's a
Slavoj Žižek
component, it's a component of the sexuality. I also another thing maybe it will amuse you. I also have a problem here with this idea of women are objectivized. But all the women I've met, not slept with much less I'm strangely conservative here, but told me the same thing. But one of the pleasures of sex is that precisely
component, it's a component of the sexuality. I also another thing maybe it will amuse you. I also have a problem here with this idea of women are objectivized. But all the women I've met, not slept with much less I'm strangely conservative here, but told me the same thing. But one of the pleasures of sex is that precisely
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you know you are just reduced to an instrument, you enjoy it he enjoys you get rid of all that gentle psychological bullshit. And the point is that in a way. You kind of lose your identity. Yeah and it's kind of a liberating experience. It doesn't reduce you to it reduces you to an object, but while you retain fully your subjective freedom and so on,
you know you are just reduced to an instrument, you enjoy it he enjoys you get rid of all that gentle psychological bullshit. And the point is that in a way. You kind of lose your identity. Yeah and it's kind of a liberating experience. It doesn't reduce you to it reduces you to an object, but while you retain fully your subjective freedom and so on,
Slavoj Žižek
you know? Even in hardcore pornography, once they almost lynched me but then I convinced them in some talk when I developed this idea. I a year ago I quickly went through some short hardcore I tried to identify let's call it the basic figure of heterosexual hardcore. Okay. And I think I found it: a woman lies on her back with I'm sorry for the obscenity with her legs spread, the man is penetrating her, but now comes the crucial part. You must have noticed how in hardcore woman is allowed to do the Lucille Ball thing, allowed to look into the camera of course to express but so the scene is this one: man you see in close-up vagina penetration and man doesn't matter, he is the truly objectified one. Right, okay. Often I found a couple of movies short where they don't even show his face. He's just a do this bam-bam who cares? But the scene is this one: like so man and then camera there so that between her thighs you see her face and all the expression. Woman no is not an object you as a viewer it's total you don't identify with the man doing it. You are a pure observer you look for a proof that woman enjoys you. Woman as a if anything woman is subjectivized there. Right, okay. Now I know this is a subjectivization which is not it's even more humiliating than being an object. But it complicates thing how way too simplistic this simple idea is: women are objectivized. No, if in hardcore you are subjectivized in this violent way where you have to convince the man you look for a this is why again it's the woman who looks into the camera addressing you with the message I am enjoying it and so on and so on. So this already shows first how comical
you know? Even in hardcore pornography, once they almost lynched me but then I convinced them in some talk when I developed this idea. I a year ago I quickly went through some short hardcore I tried to identify let's call it the basic figure of heterosexual hardcore. Okay. And I think I found it: a woman lies on her back with I'm sorry for the obscenity with her legs spread, the man is penetrating her, but now comes the crucial part. You must have noticed how in hardcore woman is allowed to do the Lucille Ball thing, allowed to look into the camera of course to express but so the scene is this one: man you see in close-up vagina penetration and man doesn't matter, he is the truly objectified one. Right, okay. Often I found a couple of movies short where they don't even show his face. He's just a do this bam-bam who cares? But the scene is this one: like so man and then camera there so that between her thighs you see her face and all the expression. Woman no is not an object you as a viewer it's total you don't identify with the man doing it. You are a pure observer you look for a proof that woman enjoys you. Woman as a if anything woman is subjectivized there. Right, okay. Now I know this is a subjectivization which is not it's even more humiliating than being an object. But it complicates thing how way too simplistic this simple idea is: women are objectivized. No, if in hardcore you are subjectivized in this violent way where you have to convince the man you look for a this is why again it's the woman who looks into the camera addressing you with the message I am enjoying it and so on and so on. So this already shows first how comical
unknown
sex is never pure passion. You have to have this comical spectacle aspect and so on because this of course introduces Lucille Ball comedy and so first how true love
sex is never pure passion. You have to have this comical spectacle aspect and so on because this of course introduces Lucille Ball comedy and so first how true love
Slavoj Žižek
even passion it's always this minimally triple structure. The lesson of psychoanalysis is not we always think about sex. Like everybody has sexual meaning. It's a much more intelligent insight. The problem is not why do we always think about sex whatever we are doing, it's but what are we thinking when we are doing it? And there you get fantasy which even doesn't have to be sexual, a comical detail you know Ludwig Wittgenstein, the philosopher. You know already years ago a friend of mine discovered in Austria published his wartime diaries and writing everything there he reported how many times he masturbated in the trenches World War I, and he also describes his fantasies during masturbation. They were not gay, although he was gay, they were rather debates with philosophers about problems of mathematics and that's absolutely crucial. That sounds like a Woody Allen bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ah that's for me the of everybody knows this the most the nicest. I'm not a mega Woody Allen fan but two things I like: first his typical especially from Diane Keaton movies this after sex you have this I almost call it Stalinist self-criticism, but did you do this, was I good and so on? And another very deep one. This is the comedy of sex is you saw his Everything You Always Wanted to Know blah blah. Sure. The last one from the inside how they treat it almost a kind of Stalinist production unit, orders down, workers there, one push more boys. It was like Modern Times but inside his body, yes. The other wonderful example here is did you see Monty Python The Meaning of Life? Sure. That central episode sexual education. Right. and that's what I mean by superego. You know teacher comes, hey you, three times to arouse vagina. I don't know what you were doing yesterday instead of practicing this and so on. Is there is such a deep insight into this pure superegoization you know of. This this is absolutely crucial to get in sexuality. That sexuality it's a total fake this romantic idea pure passion. Without an element of comedy sexuality doesn't function. Seduction is an element of comedy, it's never this pure passion me and you or whatever, you know. Yes, yes. Let me you mentioned Meaning of Life, you mentioned Annie Hall, some of those movies. Do you have first of all, do you think there is a perfect comedy movie or and also what is your. I here I already mentioned it I'm here very traditional. If you asked me I'm I'm split between *To Be or Not to Be* and and maybe I would nonetheless opt for *Trouble in Paradise*. Right, right. Although there are wonderful elements of sexual comics I often
even passion it's always this minimally triple structure. The lesson of psychoanalysis is not we always think about sex. Like everybody has sexual meaning. It's a much more intelligent insight. The problem is not why do we always think about sex whatever we are doing, it's but what are we thinking when we are doing it? And there you get fantasy which even doesn't have to be sexual, a comical detail you know Ludwig Wittgenstein, the philosopher. You know already years ago a friend of mine discovered in Austria published his wartime diaries and writing everything there he reported how many times he masturbated in the trenches World War I, and he also describes his fantasies during masturbation. They were not gay, although he was gay, they were rather debates with philosophers about problems of mathematics and that's absolutely crucial. That sounds like a Woody Allen bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ah that's for me the of everybody knows this the most the nicest. I'm not a mega Woody Allen fan but two things I like: first his typical especially from Diane Keaton movies this after sex you have this I almost call it Stalinist self-criticism, but did you do this, was I good and so on? And another very deep one. This is the comedy of sex is you saw his Everything You Always Wanted to Know blah blah. Sure. The last one from the inside how they treat it almost a kind of Stalinist production unit, orders down, workers there, one push more boys. It was like Modern Times but inside his body, yes. The other wonderful example here is did you see Monty Python The Meaning of Life? Sure. That central episode sexual education. Right. and that's what I mean by superego. You know teacher comes, hey you, three times to arouse vagina. I don't know what you were doing yesterday instead of practicing this and so on. Is there is such a deep insight into this pure superegoization you know of. This this is absolutely crucial to get in sexuality. That sexuality it's a total fake this romantic idea pure passion. Without an element of comedy sexuality doesn't function. Seduction is an element of comedy, it's never this pure passion me and you or whatever, you know. Yes, yes. Let me you mentioned Meaning of Life, you mentioned Annie Hall, some of those movies. Do you have first of all, do you think there is a perfect comedy movie or and also what is your. I here I already mentioned it I'm here very traditional. If you asked me I'm I'm split between *To Be or Not to Be* and and maybe I would nonetheless opt for *Trouble in Paradise*. Right, right. Although there are wonderful elements of sexual comics I often
unknown
two three times mentioned this in my books.
two three times mentioned this in my books.
Slavoj Žižek
Did you see, it's not a very good movie, an earlier how is he called my God who played the young the young in Star Wars in the second part Ewan McGregor. Ewan McGregor. Okay, yes. Did you see a movie by him, British modest working class comedy not even comedy serious drama *Brassed Off*? Never saw it. About miners and so on. Okay. There you learn everything about comedy and sexuality. He is a striking miner gets entangled with a girl who works for the turned out to be a good one for the company which wants to close down the mine and there is a seduction game then it's something wonderful. They had a date then he accompanies her to her house and in front of the house he is very decent doesn't approach she tells him: would you like to come up for a coffee? He says would love to but I don't drink coffee. You know what she answers? No problem I don't have any. It's so wonderful because it's just an empty gesture. A solemn thing, right. Yeah, yeah, although they both know it's shit and so on. Yeah, yeah, incredible. Yeah. But through this nothing dirty, can you imagine a more direct sexual invitation, you know? Yes. This is what we have to learn. Yes. This is the the ultimate anti- it's none of this consensual sex with just I offer you something and then I say it doesn't exist but the true meaning of the offer is revealed. It's done in such a wonderful way, no? And it's also very feminist because it's the woman who does it you cannot accuse him no. It would be totally different if the man had said that. Another maybe you heard it ultimate Hegelian joke for me. It has the same structure comical is maybe the best joke although it's a traditional one from Lubitsch. You saw Ninotchka? Yeah. Okay, did you notice the nice detail? You know who plays her commissar who sends her abroad? I can't remember his name. Bela Lugosi! Bela Lugosi! Ingenious! But you know this famous joke there when he tries to amuse her, the actor I forgot his name, and tells this joke, it's a simple classic, that you know a guy goes to a cafeteria and asks: can I get coffee with cream please, without cream, and the waiter tells him: sorry we don't have any cream, we only have milk, so I cannot give you without cream only without milk. I claim all Hegel is in this. This is what Hegel calls determinate negation. Although it's the same coffee materially but coffee without cream it's not the same as coffee without milk. Now this brings us back to Soviet times, you know that in Poland they told me this was a classic political joke from those times. Because you know you never had everything in the stores. Yes. and a customer comes in a Warsaw store and says: did you already get butter? And they tell him: sorry you are in the wrong store, we are a store which doesn't have wash powder, the store across the street is the one which doesn't have butter and so on, you know. Yeah, yeah. So again something like this, this is the essence of sexuality, of innuendos, that you know a gesture can be just a gesture, it can be not this it can be not that. Another I quoted them in one of my other books. Comedy is always the final line of a joke. This is why Kierkegaard is right. Christianity is immanently a comic religion. Not in this vulgar Dante sense, comedy it ends well as opposite to tragedy, but in the sense of this falling into as it were your own image. Maybe you heard it my favorite there are couple of Soviet joke. One of it has this Christian moment of the figure out falls into it. You know in Lubyanka prison mid 30s three prisoners meet in a cell. Each says why: the first prisoner says I got five years for attacking Popov, high functionary. The second one says but then the party line changed and I got ten years for defending Popov. You know what the third one says? I'm here for life and I am Popov! You know like he falls into and you know that in East Germany they had the same structure of a joke with God. And it's the deepest Christian joke that I heard, it's that it's from those times, you know, Brezhnev, Nixon, Honecker in East Germany, East German boss, no? Okay, they all confront God and ask him the same question, no. First Nixon, what will be of my beloved United States years from now? God says it will be a Soviet colony, no. Nixon turns around and starts to cry. Then Brezhnev: what will be of my beloved Soviet Union years from now? You can guess it. It will be a Chinese province, no. Okay Brezhnev turns around starts to cry. Then Honecker asks: what will be my beloved German Democratic Republic years from now? You can guess it. God turns around and starts to cry. But you know what the Christian? How you think you are outside but the agent itself falls into it. Yes. That's why I think that I'm not kidding, it would have been wonderful to do an intricate analysis of why, maybe it was just Middle Europe, I don't know, because I still think this is the Freudian legacy, Middle Europe: Czech Republic, Poland, East Germany. They were the top in these political jokes. Yeah, you know, and it is as if this Kafkaesque specific sensitivity when this meets communism, you get the best the best explosive combination. Yeah, yeah. And I think that Lenin knew it. Lenin I don't want to just celebrating Lenin, he did many things. Yes. But I was so you know what people don't draw attention to enough, how Lenin was obsessed with question of civility, good manners. People don't remember you know that famous overrated statement so-called testament: comrade Stalin should be deposed. But you know what he gives as a reason there, not wrong politics, but comrade Stalin is not kind and polite enough and so on. Lenin's big obsession then even proposed he saw that central committee has a lot of power. Yes. and his problem was how to counteract him. And then he proposed some control commission voted directly by party members which would not be simply a higher committee, but something that would confront, criticize central committee through irony, jokes and so on. This is Lenin at his best, a totally crazy idea that to have a regime functioning the the top power should be redoubled by a comic agency. Right. And it was not this would be good humor, you know why, because there already was enough humor in central committee, but this was the brutal Stalinist humor directed as those at those beneath. Right, right. But I like this idea of the comic double of power, you know? Yes, yes. So again I don't buy this story unfortunately of some of my Trotskyite friends, you know like if only Lenin were to survive for three years he would have made a pact with Trotsky and then depose and then what? We would have a thriving democracy. But when he was really desperate, Lenin in the last two years of his life, when he saw how he screwed it up, it's interesting where his mind went. Not some boring objective analysis but comedy and politeness, simple good manners. This is what is missing. So who. Yes. Battery and cards you need to change? All right so we'll take a break for a minute while they change. But uh that's generally the way it works. So our conversation you have
Did you see, it's not a very good movie, an earlier how is he called my God who played the young the young in Star Wars in the second part Ewan McGregor. Ewan McGregor. Okay, yes. Did you see a movie by him, British modest working class comedy not even comedy serious drama *Brassed Off*? Never saw it. About miners and so on. Okay. There you learn everything about comedy and sexuality. He is a striking miner gets entangled with a girl who works for the turned out to be a good one for the company which wants to close down the mine and there is a seduction game then it's something wonderful. They had a date then he accompanies her to her house and in front of the house he is very decent doesn't approach she tells him: would you like to come up for a coffee? He says would love to but I don't drink coffee. You know what she answers? No problem I don't have any. It's so wonderful because it's just an empty gesture. A solemn thing, right. Yeah, yeah, although they both know it's shit and so on. Yeah, yeah, incredible. Yeah. But through this nothing dirty, can you imagine a more direct sexual invitation, you know? Yes. This is what we have to learn. Yes. This is the the ultimate anti- it's none of this consensual sex with just I offer you something and then I say it doesn't exist but the true meaning of the offer is revealed. It's done in such a wonderful way, no? And it's also very feminist because it's the woman who does it you cannot accuse him no. It would be totally different if the man had said that. Another maybe you heard it ultimate Hegelian joke for me. It has the same structure comical is maybe the best joke although it's a traditional one from Lubitsch. You saw Ninotchka? Yeah. Okay, did you notice the nice detail? You know who plays her commissar who sends her abroad? I can't remember his name. Bela Lugosi! Bela Lugosi! Ingenious! But you know this famous joke there when he tries to amuse her, the actor I forgot his name, and tells this joke, it's a simple classic, that you know a guy goes to a cafeteria and asks: can I get coffee with cream please, without cream, and the waiter tells him: sorry we don't have any cream, we only have milk, so I cannot give you without cream only without milk. I claim all Hegel is in this. This is what Hegel calls determinate negation. Although it's the same coffee materially but coffee without cream it's not the same as coffee without milk. Now this brings us back to Soviet times, you know that in Poland they told me this was a classic political joke from those times. Because you know you never had everything in the stores. Yes. and a customer comes in a Warsaw store and says: did you already get butter? And they tell him: sorry you are in the wrong store, we are a store which doesn't have wash powder, the store across the street is the one which doesn't have butter and so on, you know. Yeah, yeah. So again something like this, this is the essence of sexuality, of innuendos, that you know a gesture can be just a gesture, it can be not this it can be not that. Another I quoted them in one of my other books. Comedy is always the final line of a joke. This is why Kierkegaard is right. Christianity is immanently a comic religion. Not in this vulgar Dante sense, comedy it ends well as opposite to tragedy, but in the sense of this falling into as it were your own image. Maybe you heard it my favorite there are couple of Soviet joke. One of it has this Christian moment of the figure out falls into it. You know in Lubyanka prison mid 30s three prisoners meet in a cell. Each says why: the first prisoner says I got five years for attacking Popov, high functionary. The second one says but then the party line changed and I got ten years for defending Popov. You know what the third one says? I'm here for life and I am Popov! You know like he falls into and you know that in East Germany they had the same structure of a joke with God. And it's the deepest Christian joke that I heard, it's that it's from those times, you know, Brezhnev, Nixon, Honecker in East Germany, East German boss, no? Okay, they all confront God and ask him the same question, no. First Nixon, what will be of my beloved United States years from now? God says it will be a Soviet colony, no. Nixon turns around and starts to cry. Then Brezhnev: what will be of my beloved Soviet Union years from now? You can guess it. It will be a Chinese province, no. Okay Brezhnev turns around starts to cry. Then Honecker asks: what will be my beloved German Democratic Republic years from now? You can guess it. God turns around and starts to cry. But you know what the Christian? How you think you are outside but the agent itself falls into it. Yes. That's why I think that I'm not kidding, it would have been wonderful to do an intricate analysis of why, maybe it was just Middle Europe, I don't know, because I still think this is the Freudian legacy, Middle Europe: Czech Republic, Poland, East Germany. They were the top in these political jokes. Yeah, you know, and it is as if this Kafkaesque specific sensitivity when this meets communism, you get the best the best explosive combination. Yeah, yeah. And I think that Lenin knew it. Lenin I don't want to just celebrating Lenin, he did many things. Yes. But I was so you know what people don't draw attention to enough, how Lenin was obsessed with question of civility, good manners. People don't remember you know that famous overrated statement so-called testament: comrade Stalin should be deposed. But you know what he gives as a reason there, not wrong politics, but comrade Stalin is not kind and polite enough and so on. Lenin's big obsession then even proposed he saw that central committee has a lot of power. Yes. and his problem was how to counteract him. And then he proposed some control commission voted directly by party members which would not be simply a higher committee, but something that would confront, criticize central committee through irony, jokes and so on. This is Lenin at his best, a totally crazy idea that to have a regime functioning the the top power should be redoubled by a comic agency. Right. And it was not this would be good humor, you know why, because there already was enough humor in central committee, but this was the brutal Stalinist humor directed as those at those beneath. Right, right. But I like this idea of the comic double of power, you know? Yes, yes. So again I don't buy this story unfortunately of some of my Trotskyite friends, you know like if only Lenin were to survive for three years he would have made a pact with Trotsky and then depose and then what? We would have a thriving democracy. But when he was really desperate, Lenin in the last two years of his life, when he saw how he screwed it up, it's interesting where his mind went. Not some boring objective analysis but comedy and politeness, simple good manners. This is what is missing. So who. Yes. Battery and cards you need to change? All right so we'll take a break for a minute while they change. But uh that's generally the way it works. So our conversation you have
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referenced all kinds from from Lubitsch stuff to Monty Python and we could use all those to sort of illustrate your point. Ah you can, you can. And that'll give a pace to the interview as
referenced all kinds from from Lubitsch stuff to Monty Python and we could use all those to sort of illustrate your point. Ah you can, you can. And that'll give a pace to the interview as
Slavoj Žižek
well the way it does in the Sophie Fiennes movies. You'll talk, you're on the set of Batman or whatever it is but they're cutting to all these different things as well. Those movies look great by the way. No we don't have the energy to do the third part. What's the third part? We will no it's very boring. I wanted to do something much more eccentric but then everybody is afraid one idea was a very modest one to do Pervert's Guide to Opera and follow this line Mozart, Wagner and so on they claim oh commercial it's not enough commercial. Then I want to do Pervert's Guide to God they ah. That's a great one how can you not do that? So we will do now something extremely boring like Pervert's Guide to 21st Century or other. Oh I see, yeah very generic yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pervert's Guide to God is a great idea. Yeah, I know, I know but whatever, no. the problem okay the good point is that I can use all my common stuff and so on but the true hard worker is Sophie there. Uh-huh, yes right of course. She then she was my I ironically call her you know you know how my God who did the movies Leni Riefenstahl. Right. You know after she filmed Olympia she spent two years just going through all the clips whatever. She spent then through all my babbling and so on to put order into it. She does the work. For me it was pretty easy to do it. Yeah, but they came out great though both those movies are great. I do like them. Yeah
well the way it does in the Sophie Fiennes movies. You'll talk, you're on the set of Batman or whatever it is but they're cutting to all these different things as well. Those movies look great by the way. No we don't have the energy to do the third part. What's the third part? We will no it's very boring. I wanted to do something much more eccentric but then everybody is afraid one idea was a very modest one to do Pervert's Guide to Opera and follow this line Mozart, Wagner and so on they claim oh commercial it's not enough commercial. Then I want to do Pervert's Guide to God they ah. That's a great one how can you not do that? So we will do now something extremely boring like Pervert's Guide to 21st Century or other. Oh I see, yeah very generic yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pervert's Guide to God is a great idea. Yeah, I know, I know but whatever, no. the problem okay the good point is that I can use all my common stuff and so on but the true hard worker is Sophie there. Uh-huh, yes right of course. She then she was my I ironically call her you know you know how my God who did the movies Leni Riefenstahl. Right. You know after she filmed Olympia she spent two years just going through all the clips whatever. She spent then through all my babbling and so on to put order into it. She does the work. For me it was pretty easy to do it. Yeah, but they came out great though both those movies are great. I do like them. Yeah
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but we learned we earned
but we learned we earned
Slavoj Žižek
minimally because uh they just uh it was nonetheless it didn't earn a lot on in movie theaters, it was
minimally because uh they just uh it was nonetheless it didn't earn a lot on in movie theaters, it was
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just all those rentals and
just all those rentals and
Slavoj Žižek
then the production costs, the company which produced it Channel Four wanted it. Yes. Do you get some percentage? If I may ask how do you do with Curb Your Enthusiasm now? I Are you just paid a flat fee or do you get some percentage? There's a flat fee but because there's a union you get the residuals which go on for almost ever. There you know every time it's shown you're paid
then the production costs, the company which produced it Channel Four wanted it. Yes. Do you get some percentage? If I may ask how do you do with Curb Your Enthusiasm now? I Are you just paid a flat fee or do you get some percentage? There's a flat fee but because there's a union you get the residuals which go on for almost ever. There you know every time it's shown you're paid
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again.
again.
Slavoj Žižek
And it also so also Seinfeld when it's shown. Seinfeld too you keep get keep getting paid no matter how many times it's on. Now eventually it kind of gets reduced to to a very but that's years later it gets reduced. But for a long time you just continue to get checks from all those different sources here. In other countries it doesn't usually work that way. What happened with that guy? He's not doing so well after after Dictator the the Sacha Baron. You know it's tough for English comedians to come to the United States and have success and sustain it. Peter Sellers, um, Russell Brand, Sacha, they're all super talented people. But they kind of catch the fancy of the American public for a while and if they can't- Ricky Gervais there's a lot of great English comedians but they catch the fancy for a while and then the taste shifts again. It's so stupid of me I should have but when I first saw him in Borat and so on I mean I I must say I'm stupid I wouldn't have guessed that he is that he is British. Right, isn't that interesting? Yeah, yeah. No he is British but he is an immersive actor. He should in my opinion he should have been nominated for an Academy Award because he's doing a role he's doing acting with real people who are not realizing that he's doing. Ah was it really that Borat was so? Where were you in trouble I read in that rodeo or whatever? Yes well all all kinds of places we got into trouble. We got into probably about we were at the Watergate hotel and got stopped by the Secret Service. We got stopped in front of the White House. We had a lot of incidents with police. Somebody was keeping track we had like at least incidents with police with the Secret Service with the FBI where we would get stopped we would get and he would stay in character. Which is very conceptual which was really funny we filmed it. Ah you mean he was the way yeah. Yes he wouldn't reveal who he was until he absolutely had to until we were going to get arrested you know. All right but uh sorry yeah. No no please go no no no no no no. I want to ask you uh because I know we want to sort of wrap up a little bit. Do you have a favorite joke or a favorite dirty joke? Uh It's so difficult to nominate one favorite. Yeah, I know. You can give me a couple. Okay. I will tell you my favorite dirty joke but it's not that you laugh a lot. Right. I like the structure which is it begins dirty but and it was even told from Stalinist Russia, it begins in a dirty way but it ends up the surprise is the total innocence. Okay. Two guys sit for a long ride in a compartment of a train, wagon, and one asks the other: did you already fuck a dog? The other says no this is disgusting did you? The first guy says it's disgusting of course not then why did you then ask me? Oh just I wanted a point to start the conversation and so on. It's not a great joke but I like this total you know like because usually you begin in an innocent way and then and I like this total that's true it's the opposite yeah yeah. My favorite favorite political would be but I don't think it would have worked it works in English but it's part of this Central European tradition of you think the joke is over and then it goes one step more. There was in communist time in ex-Yugoslavia a Croat politician called Jure Bilić. Okay. The idea is this one: that he visits Giscard d'Estaing years ago in France and he learns that in France to appear dignified you must add a D, D-E, no? De it's like von, no? And the guy French guy presents himself: Giscard d'Estaing, I'm de Esting, and he says: de-Bilić, debil, no? And now comes the second part. Surprised, Giscard says: really? De facto? He says: no de jure, you know because he's stupid one but I like this although my favorite politically because it's the same I like this ah I will tell you two more, okay great. One Stalinist one that I recently discovered I really like it. They debate in the Politburo in the 30s will there be money in communism or not? And first a right-winger right-winger okay Bukharin says of course money money is needed it's a natural way to exchange things and then a leftist said no money is capitalist alienation we will have immediate distribution no money and then Stalin intervenes and says: no comrades you have two deviations: right-wing deviation and left-wing deviation. And the truth is the dialectical synthesis of the two: there will be money and there will not be money. And somebody asked: okay comrade Stalin how will this look? And Stalin says: you can guess what, very simple: some people will have money and some people will not. It's a simple one but again I like this return to common sense. But my favorite okay for political and theoretical reason is the one you must know it I use it at the beginning of my of my uh I think it was *Welcome to the Desert of the Real*. It's East German joke the best I know when a guy from Soviet times, me
And it also so also Seinfeld when it's shown. Seinfeld too you keep get keep getting paid no matter how many times it's on. Now eventually it kind of gets reduced to to a very but that's years later it gets reduced. But for a long time you just continue to get checks from all those different sources here. In other countries it doesn't usually work that way. What happened with that guy? He's not doing so well after after Dictator the the Sacha Baron. You know it's tough for English comedians to come to the United States and have success and sustain it. Peter Sellers, um, Russell Brand, Sacha, they're all super talented people. But they kind of catch the fancy of the American public for a while and if they can't- Ricky Gervais there's a lot of great English comedians but they catch the fancy for a while and then the taste shifts again. It's so stupid of me I should have but when I first saw him in Borat and so on I mean I I must say I'm stupid I wouldn't have guessed that he is that he is British. Right, isn't that interesting? Yeah, yeah. No he is British but he is an immersive actor. He should in my opinion he should have been nominated for an Academy Award because he's doing a role he's doing acting with real people who are not realizing that he's doing. Ah was it really that Borat was so? Where were you in trouble I read in that rodeo or whatever? Yes well all all kinds of places we got into trouble. We got into probably about we were at the Watergate hotel and got stopped by the Secret Service. We got stopped in front of the White House. We had a lot of incidents with police. Somebody was keeping track we had like at least incidents with police with the Secret Service with the FBI where we would get stopped we would get and he would stay in character. Which is very conceptual which was really funny we filmed it. Ah you mean he was the way yeah. Yes he wouldn't reveal who he was until he absolutely had to until we were going to get arrested you know. All right but uh sorry yeah. No no please go no no no no no no. I want to ask you uh because I know we want to sort of wrap up a little bit. Do you have a favorite joke or a favorite dirty joke? Uh It's so difficult to nominate one favorite. Yeah, I know. You can give me a couple. Okay. I will tell you my favorite dirty joke but it's not that you laugh a lot. Right. I like the structure which is it begins dirty but and it was even told from Stalinist Russia, it begins in a dirty way but it ends up the surprise is the total innocence. Okay. Two guys sit for a long ride in a compartment of a train, wagon, and one asks the other: did you already fuck a dog? The other says no this is disgusting did you? The first guy says it's disgusting of course not then why did you then ask me? Oh just I wanted a point to start the conversation and so on. It's not a great joke but I like this total you know like because usually you begin in an innocent way and then and I like this total that's true it's the opposite yeah yeah. My favorite favorite political would be but I don't think it would have worked it works in English but it's part of this Central European tradition of you think the joke is over and then it goes one step more. There was in communist time in ex-Yugoslavia a Croat politician called Jure Bilić. Okay. The idea is this one: that he visits Giscard d'Estaing years ago in France and he learns that in France to appear dignified you must add a D, D-E, no? De it's like von, no? And the guy French guy presents himself: Giscard d'Estaing, I'm de Esting, and he says: de-Bilić, debil, no? And now comes the second part. Surprised, Giscard says: really? De facto? He says: no de jure, you know because he's stupid one but I like this although my favorite politically because it's the same I like this ah I will tell you two more, okay great. One Stalinist one that I recently discovered I really like it. They debate in the Politburo in the 30s will there be money in communism or not? And first a right-winger right-winger okay Bukharin says of course money money is needed it's a natural way to exchange things and then a leftist said no money is capitalist alienation we will have immediate distribution no money and then Stalin intervenes and says: no comrades you have two deviations: right-wing deviation and left-wing deviation. And the truth is the dialectical synthesis of the two: there will be money and there will not be money. And somebody asked: okay comrade Stalin how will this look? And Stalin says: you can guess what, very simple: some people will have money and some people will not. It's a simple one but again I like this return to common sense. But my favorite okay for political and theoretical reason is the one you must know it I use it at the beginning of my of my uh I think it was *Welcome to the Desert of the Real*. It's East German joke the best I know when a guy from Soviet times, me
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Germany
Germany
Slavoj Žižek
is sent
is sent
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to work to Siberia as an engineer whatever and he says to his friends that I will write you letters but of course letters will be censored checked by secret police so I everything that I will write you will not be true. So let's establish this code. If I write with normal blue ink it means it's true. If I write it with red ink it's means I had to lie. Okay. Then they got the first letter all in blue, no? and he says the letter goes on it's wonderful here ladies are nice we have all
to work to Siberia as an engineer whatever and he says to his friends that I will write you letters but of course letters will be censored checked by secret police so I everything that I will write you will not be true. So let's establish this code. If I write with normal blue ink it means it's true. If I write it with red ink it's means I had to lie. Okay. Then they got the first letter all in blue, no? and he says the letter goes on it's wonderful here ladies are nice we have all
Slavoj Žižek
the freedom western movies we get all the commodities here in the stores you get everything except red ink. It's just true it's very precise! I even use this one when I made that speech on Zuccotti Park Occupy Wall Street. Yes, yes. I said we need red ink today. That is to say we the problem is not simply that we are not free but we need a more precise language to to to to to explain in what sense we are not free. Right. I'm always for this paradox that the
the freedom western movies we get all the commodities here in the stores you get everything except red ink. It's just true it's very precise! I even use this one when I made that speech on Zuccotti Park Occupy Wall Street. Yes, yes. I said we need red ink today. That is to say we the problem is not simply that we are not free but we need a more precise language to to to to to explain in what sense we are not free. Right. I'm always for this paradox that the
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first
first
Slavoj Žižek
gesture of liberation is that you define yourself as a slave and so on. Wow that's interesting. Yeah, yeah, so so this type of otherwise I must tell you ah another maybe you know this one in where I discovered nonetheless the emancipatory dimension of jokes. The same in ex-Yugoslavia. The beautiful thing before nationalism exploded in the 80s when I was young was that all the time in
gesture of liberation is that you define yourself as a slave and so on. Wow that's interesting. Yeah, yeah, so so this type of otherwise I must tell you ah another maybe you know this one in where I discovered nonetheless the emancipatory dimension of jokes. The same in ex-Yugoslavia. The beautiful thing before nationalism exploded in the 80s when I was young was that all the time in
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ex-Yugoslavia
ex-Yugoslavia
Slavoj Žižek
each nation was identified with a certain racist cliche feature. You know like we Slovenes were supposed to be misers. Okay. We don't like to spend money. Bosnians are supposed to be sex obsessed. Macedonians are supposed to be thieves. Montenegro people are supposed to be extremely lazy. And there and also okay maybe I'm sure you've heard this one a classic Montenegro one I use it all the time is this
each nation was identified with a certain racist cliche feature. You know like we Slovenes were supposed to be misers. Okay. We don't like to spend money. Bosnians are supposed to be sex obsessed. Macedonians are supposed to be thieves. Montenegro people are supposed to be extremely lazy. And there and also okay maybe I'm sure you've heard this one a classic Montenegro one I use it all the time is this
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one: that a Montenegro how does because it's always also earthquake territory
one: that a Montenegro how does because it's always also earthquake territory
Slavoj Žižek
Montenegro. Okay. How does
Montenegro. Okay. How does
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a Montenegro guy masturbate? How? He digs a small hole in the earth, puts his penis in, and waits for the earthquake because he is even too lazy to. But the wonder was how this functioned: whenever we meet with friends different republics, we did not play this politically correct games,
a Montenegro guy masturbate? How? He digs a small hole in the earth, puts his penis in, and waits for the earthquake because he is even too lazy to. But the wonder was how this functioned: whenever we meet with friends different republics, we did not play this politically correct games,
Slavoj Žižek
oh you see this jokes try to reduce us to a cliche. We gladly and with
oh you see this jokes try to reduce us to a cliche. We gladly and with
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pride identified with that cliche and try to use it as in as many jokes as possible, making joke of those cliches, you know? And it was wonderful experience like we competed with each other who will tell a nastier joke against ourselves mostly but precisely mobilizing the mobilizing the cliche. For example there is a whole
pride identified with that cliche and try to use it as in as many jokes as possible, making joke of those cliches, you know? And it was wonderful experience like we competed with each other who will tell a nastier joke against ourselves mostly but precisely mobilizing the mobilizing the cliche. For example there is a whole
Slavoj Žižek
series of ah there is another Montenegro joke which you will not dare to use that one.
series of ah there is another Montenegro joke which you will not dare to use that one.
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It's problematic. It's extremely politically incorrect. Okay. But in my for my redemption I can only tell you it was told to me by a woman. It's okay. It takes
It's problematic. It's extremely politically incorrect. Okay. But in my for my redemption I can only tell you it was told to me by a woman. It's okay. It takes
Slavoj Žižek
place in Pristina, Kosovo part where you have all this United Nations
place in Pristina, Kosovo part where you have all this United Nations
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International police and a woman comes to them, again it refers to Montenegro laziness, a woman comes to a lady them and said: yesterday night I want to report a rape, I was raped by a Montenegro guy. And they okay show us where okay she takes them to a dark corridor where even the bulb exploded, darkness, says it happened here at midnight. They say: but how do you know that it was a Montenegro guy if you can't
International police and a woman comes to them, again it refers to Montenegro laziness, a woman comes to a lady them and said: yesterday night I want to report a rape, I was raped by a Montenegro guy. And they okay show us where okay she takes them to a dark corridor where even the bulb exploded, darkness, says it happened here at midnight. They say: but how do you know that it was a Montenegro guy if you can't
Slavoj Žižek
see anything? And she says:
see anything? And she says:
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well he was just laying down I had to do all the work. You don't use this, you know. That's funny though,
well he was just laying down I had to do all the work. You don't use this, you know. That's funny though,
Slavoj Žižek
but that's funny. But it's typical how it was part of our Balkan ethos that I liked it, you know, how it
but that's funny. But it's typical how it was part of our Balkan ethos that I liked it, you know, how it
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like in Slovenia we have these traditions like all the nice they are now a little bit outdated jokes against blonde ladies as stupid no. We had a blonde student who was
like in Slovenia we have these traditions like all the nice they are now a little bit outdated jokes against blonde ladies as stupid no. We had a blonde student who was
Slavoj Žižek
specialized in collecting them and so on. No again what I really liked is how what may appear as brutal racism was in a wonderful way changed into a tool of solidarity because I even have a negative proof of it. The proof is that when in early 80s real actual nationalist violence and tensions emerged, these jokes disappeared. Oh. Only the so it's effective for me. One would have expected, you know, with all those Serb, Bosnian, Croat tensions it would have exploded even more. No it didn't. No it didn't. It didn't explode it even disappeared. It was really some kind of a proof that these jokes illustrated their power actually. Yes, they were a danger in some way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. A subversive they were a subversive tool. Not so much subversive as I would even say an instrument of solidarity. By sharing these jokes you established you established a link. That's why I always use this example that there are people who are polite, that's easy. There are people who are vulgar, this is also relatively easy. Then there are people like Japanese and British who can be vulgar while maintaining their polite facade. Yes, they can insult you extremely but in an extremely gentle polite way. You don't even know you've been insulted. Yeah, yeah. But then I think the true art is to be polite and kind in a vulgar way. You apparently talk vulgar you know but then you do and so on. And that's for me that's for me a certain function of and this is what you don't find in these arrogant dirty racist political humors. They're usually just vulgar and so on. While the true art is to use vulgarity, it can be a very dirty humor and so on, but the way it functions is and is really one of friendship politeness and when friends told me that all these liberals who worry too much: but how do you know that somebody will not be offended or whatever? No, the miracle is you do know. In a concrete situation it's always absolutely clear is somebody is somebody offended or not. And sometimes this humorous approach works wonders. For example I was with my friend Udi Aloni when he got a notice that his mother died. and he was totally desperate, he was very attached to his mother and so on. mhm and ah she told me not even a joke it really she was minister of education in Rabin cabinet. Okay. and she visited Japan with Rabin. She had a thing there where she thought it's humor but the joke was that it wasn't. The Japanese minister of education told her: we admire Jewish people, you are wonderful you are our model. and she asked him: why? What do you mean why? He said: you know what to do a plan and then you realize it. She said: okay, well and he said protocols of z- she assumed that this is a real book and she was slightly shocked to say that no and then I knew the guy is Udi Aloni approaching a breakdown and I did something which was risky but it worked. I knew it must be something obscene crazy that will distract because he showed me some picture of her mother and so on just when she was old and I thought listen fuck now she is an ugly old lady. I want to see was she fuckable or not when she was younger. Show me some of her early pictures. and it was madness it worked so wonderfully. We were no she is fuckable here what sounds did she make there and I distracted him in such a nice way you know that's the pedagogical act pedagogical art of obscenity. If you know to shock people in a good way, yes, it can it can definitely work. But again my big formula is the art of using ah another thing you will like at this level of using vulgarity literally as means of kindness and friendship. You know a wonderful thing happened to me with my son whose best friend for years in Slovenia is a black boy. By some miracle his mother moved to Slovenia he lives there. and he was all the time but as an act of extreme friendship when he visited my son to play video games the butt of my you can imagine how dirty they were tasteless jokes. Yeah, you know like the first time he came I told him why are you so black, don't you have do you need more soap to wash this off all. Once they were when they were very young practicing mathematics you know like all those stupid elementary first second year ex you take two apples you cut them in three parts you put together how and he had some difficulties. and I told him wait a minute maybe we should make for you a different task: like there is an ape jumping from a tree for three. It was then something so I suspected for some time My God maybe that guy will be hurt really. No then a miracle happened. Once he came to visit my son I opened the door and because my son was playing the video games no and I was really in a bad mood some private trouble so I just kindly said hi come in to him and withdrew. and then in five minutes my son came and said: are you mad at my friend? Why didn't you insult him? He's extremely worried did he do something wrong? I loved this so much it became to such an extent this and he was very good at insulting me back. At least maybe I've screwed my children with my education but maybe I used it so much you know this joke at least my son had my type of sarcastic humor. I'm so proud of him when for example when he was it's important you will see why thirteen years old. I was once a little bit mad at him so I shouted at him a dirty curse in Croat, *jeboti pas mater*, which means literally translated let a dog fuck your mother. Okay. You know what my son instantly answered? He was thirty. This already happened fourteen years ago that's how I was born! But I admired him he didn't have to think five minutes, reflex instant. Reflex! Reflex instant! Nice, nice! Yeah, yeah! That's great! That's great! And what worries me now more seriously is that is such a procedure still possible in politically correct times or do we worry all the time would somebody be offended no or whatever up and down. Because even in erotics with my wife we strictly speak this language for years. When she wanted sex she had to say listen I need now a nice gentle rape would you please rape me and so I claim that you lose something very precious if you drop this obscene dimension. It can be for me I think that we are so cynical at least I am that if you say it literally or in a direct way I automatically take it as irony you know. It it must be wrapped up in this way as some kind of a paradox and so on or with a dirty twist to it and so on and so on. So again that that worries me that worries me very much. Well do you think that political correctness could lead to the evolution or the death of comedy at some point? When nothing is allowed to be funny? This is a good question because again of course their official party line would have been no there can also be a good humor and so on. Once I had a problem with this in Santa Cruz which was already in the 80s one of the capitals of political correctness no and and I told a dirty joke and they told me you know no you we don't do this here we have wonderful jokes you know we have wonderful jokes which these
specialized in collecting them and so on. No again what I really liked is how what may appear as brutal racism was in a wonderful way changed into a tool of solidarity because I even have a negative proof of it. The proof is that when in early 80s real actual nationalist violence and tensions emerged, these jokes disappeared. Oh. Only the so it's effective for me. One would have expected, you know, with all those Serb, Bosnian, Croat tensions it would have exploded even more. No it didn't. No it didn't. It didn't explode it even disappeared. It was really some kind of a proof that these jokes illustrated their power actually. Yes, they were a danger in some way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. A subversive they were a subversive tool. Not so much subversive as I would even say an instrument of solidarity. By sharing these jokes you established you established a link. That's why I always use this example that there are people who are polite, that's easy. There are people who are vulgar, this is also relatively easy. Then there are people like Japanese and British who can be vulgar while maintaining their polite facade. Yes, they can insult you extremely but in an extremely gentle polite way. You don't even know you've been insulted. Yeah, yeah. But then I think the true art is to be polite and kind in a vulgar way. You apparently talk vulgar you know but then you do and so on. And that's for me that's for me a certain function of and this is what you don't find in these arrogant dirty racist political humors. They're usually just vulgar and so on. While the true art is to use vulgarity, it can be a very dirty humor and so on, but the way it functions is and is really one of friendship politeness and when friends told me that all these liberals who worry too much: but how do you know that somebody will not be offended or whatever? No, the miracle is you do know. In a concrete situation it's always absolutely clear is somebody is somebody offended or not. And sometimes this humorous approach works wonders. For example I was with my friend Udi Aloni when he got a notice that his mother died. and he was totally desperate, he was very attached to his mother and so on. mhm and ah she told me not even a joke it really she was minister of education in Rabin cabinet. Okay. and she visited Japan with Rabin. She had a thing there where she thought it's humor but the joke was that it wasn't. The Japanese minister of education told her: we admire Jewish people, you are wonderful you are our model. and she asked him: why? What do you mean why? He said: you know what to do a plan and then you realize it. She said: okay, well and he said protocols of z- she assumed that this is a real book and she was slightly shocked to say that no and then I knew the guy is Udi Aloni approaching a breakdown and I did something which was risky but it worked. I knew it must be something obscene crazy that will distract because he showed me some picture of her mother and so on just when she was old and I thought listen fuck now she is an ugly old lady. I want to see was she fuckable or not when she was younger. Show me some of her early pictures. and it was madness it worked so wonderfully. We were no she is fuckable here what sounds did she make there and I distracted him in such a nice way you know that's the pedagogical act pedagogical art of obscenity. If you know to shock people in a good way, yes, it can it can definitely work. But again my big formula is the art of using ah another thing you will like at this level of using vulgarity literally as means of kindness and friendship. You know a wonderful thing happened to me with my son whose best friend for years in Slovenia is a black boy. By some miracle his mother moved to Slovenia he lives there. and he was all the time but as an act of extreme friendship when he visited my son to play video games the butt of my you can imagine how dirty they were tasteless jokes. Yeah, you know like the first time he came I told him why are you so black, don't you have do you need more soap to wash this off all. Once they were when they were very young practicing mathematics you know like all those stupid elementary first second year ex you take two apples you cut them in three parts you put together how and he had some difficulties. and I told him wait a minute maybe we should make for you a different task: like there is an ape jumping from a tree for three. It was then something so I suspected for some time My God maybe that guy will be hurt really. No then a miracle happened. Once he came to visit my son I opened the door and because my son was playing the video games no and I was really in a bad mood some private trouble so I just kindly said hi come in to him and withdrew. and then in five minutes my son came and said: are you mad at my friend? Why didn't you insult him? He's extremely worried did he do something wrong? I loved this so much it became to such an extent this and he was very good at insulting me back. At least maybe I've screwed my children with my education but maybe I used it so much you know this joke at least my son had my type of sarcastic humor. I'm so proud of him when for example when he was it's important you will see why thirteen years old. I was once a little bit mad at him so I shouted at him a dirty curse in Croat, *jeboti pas mater*, which means literally translated let a dog fuck your mother. Okay. You know what my son instantly answered? He was thirty. This already happened fourteen years ago that's how I was born! But I admired him he didn't have to think five minutes, reflex instant. Reflex! Reflex instant! Nice, nice! Yeah, yeah! That's great! That's great! And what worries me now more seriously is that is such a procedure still possible in politically correct times or do we worry all the time would somebody be offended no or whatever up and down. Because even in erotics with my wife we strictly speak this language for years. When she wanted sex she had to say listen I need now a nice gentle rape would you please rape me and so I claim that you lose something very precious if you drop this obscene dimension. It can be for me I think that we are so cynical at least I am that if you say it literally or in a direct way I automatically take it as irony you know. It it must be wrapped up in this way as some kind of a paradox and so on or with a dirty twist to it and so on and so on. So again that that worries me that worries me very much. Well do you think that political correctness could lead to the evolution or the death of comedy at some point? When nothing is allowed to be funny? This is a good question because again of course their official party line would have been no there can also be a good humor and so on. Once I had a problem with this in Santa Cruz which was already in the 80s one of the capitals of political correctness no and and I told a dirty joke and they told me you know no you we don't do this here we have wonderful jokes you know we have wonderful jokes which these
unknown
abstract jokes you know about mathematical forums and so on which hurt nobody
abstract jokes you know about mathematical forums and so on which hurt nobody
Slavoj Žižek
and then of course I exploded they almost threw me out you know I I said but isn't the whole point of joke that at least you pretend that there is something dirty somebody is hurt
and then of course I exploded they almost threw me out you know I I said but isn't the whole point of joke that at least you pretend that there is something dirty somebody is hurt
unknown
and so on?
and so on?
Slavoj Žižek
What remains in the? So I think that although they have this goal they will never say no we are against jokes or whatever but de facto it does mean this that they disappear. There is always some kind of this brutal irony aggressiveness in a joke. And again the true miracle is not to get rid of it but to make it serve against its own form as a mean of because that's for me true friendship my God. Yeah. True friendship is not that we talk
What remains in the? So I think that although they have this goal they will never say no we are against jokes or whatever but de facto it does mean this that they disappear. There is always some kind of this brutal irony aggressiveness in a joke. And again the true miracle is not to get rid of it but to make it serve against its own form as a mean of because that's for me true friendship my God. Yeah. True friendship is not that we talk
unknown
kindly. A true friend is for me somebody
kindly. A true friend is for me somebody
Slavoj Žižek
whom I can ruthlessly insult be honest. Yeah and then I know he will do the same to me and so on and so on. Yes, yes. Sharing, sharing taboos also if you share taboos. Because you know in one of my books I went into of how what political correctness yes and fundamentalism like it's not the only one Muslim fundamentalism share they share the same obsession with sexual innuendos where does it enter? For for example I read somebody that when Taliban were in power in Afghanistan mhm you know that they prohibited women wearing metal heels. The idea is even if a woman is totally covered that click click sound can already excite men. Huh. My first reaction was what a wonderful society where everything is so eroticized! Very fetishistic. Yes but but isn't that with this obsession woman totally covered and so on this tight control of sexual innuendos expressions isn't this pretty similar although with the opposite goal pretty similar to political correctness where where also it's so tightly controlled if you do this gesture that gesture and so on and so on you know? I mean I met women years ago who were extremely strong assertive and these were not yet politically correct times and I remember how if somebody tried to flirt with them and they didn't want it they didn't need any politically correct just looked at you with with such an annihilating brutal despising attitude that you dropped that you know. Right, right. More powerful. Yeah, more powerful! I mean it can be done it can be done in this sense. You know
whom I can ruthlessly insult be honest. Yeah and then I know he will do the same to me and so on and so on. Yes, yes. Sharing, sharing taboos also if you share taboos. Because you know in one of my books I went into of how what political correctness yes and fundamentalism like it's not the only one Muslim fundamentalism share they share the same obsession with sexual innuendos where does it enter? For for example I read somebody that when Taliban were in power in Afghanistan mhm you know that they prohibited women wearing metal heels. The idea is even if a woman is totally covered that click click sound can already excite men. Huh. My first reaction was what a wonderful society where everything is so eroticized! Very fetishistic. Yes but but isn't that with this obsession woman totally covered and so on this tight control of sexual innuendos expressions isn't this pretty similar although with the opposite goal pretty similar to political correctness where where also it's so tightly controlled if you do this gesture that gesture and so on and so on you know? I mean I met women years ago who were extremely strong assertive and these were not yet politically correct times and I remember how if somebody tried to flirt with them and they didn't want it they didn't need any politically correct just looked at you with with such an annihilating brutal despising attitude that you dropped that you know. Right, right. More powerful. Yeah, more powerful! I mean it can be done it can be done in this sense. You know
unknown
what also
what also
Slavoj Žižek
people don't get here this also brought me a lot of trouble but many feminists accepted it that let's say I simplify it: let's say two women are raped. One is assertive self-assertive emancipated woman, the other is the one who is weak maybe even why not secretly fantasizing about being raped why not people have their. My point was not to my point was of course to argue against this male chauvinist wisdom that many women just call for it even. no my point was that and then speaking with some psychiatrists from Bosnian war where there were many rapes years ago they confirmed this to me. Take two ideal types of course take them and ask yourself which woman would have been more traumatized? Not the self-assertive one, the one who was dreaming about there is almost nothing more violent than to have your most intimate dreams of which you are even ashamed to express them publicly to have them brutally imposed on you from from outside no? So these are paradox and then the typical false feminist approach was but there are no women like that, these are only women who internalized male ideology. No, I think this is an extremely censoring attitude towards women. People have the right to fantasize the nastiest passive victimization and so on. The point is that in no way this justifies if you enacting dreams. This is the greatest violence is to brutally enact what you most intimately dream from outside on you. It's this type of things which can lead to suicide. Yeah. An assertive woman who is raped, it may be painful, horrible, but it doesn't touch her inside. Okay. She will to be vulgar take a good shower and I hope take revenge of the man but she will not be traumatized. While if you attack a woman if you rape her who already is weak in herself fantasizing about it there you can ruin everything. This again brings us back to that comedy as the third here, you know what was also the saddest thing I learned in I learned from Bosnian war experience friends telling me that. It's similar to something that that Primo Levi wrote that when let's say a woman is gang raped, many of them who survived it told us that the most painful thing was not okay it was horrible the act of rape but the way mostly Serbs were doing it is that to do it when they kidnapped or took prisoner of the entire family to do it in front of the girl's father. Mm. And this ruined so much the relationship because father felt incredibly guilty, My God, my girl is there raped I cannot help her. At the same time at a deeper level he felt angry at a girl. Look, she now ruined my life, took my authority from me and so on. And the interesting thing is this one: when did suicide enter, suicides entered the scene of the rape victims of rape? Yeah, the futility sets in. Yeah, yeah, it's the same the crucial dream reported by Primo Levi that once in Auschwitz in the middle of the night he dreamt in Auschwitz in the middle of the night he was dreaming that he survived the war and that he rejoined his family and that he was telling them about his wartime experience and he noticed that they are all getting bored, fall asleep, and at that point he awakens because he was so traumatized by this horror that nobody wants to listen to it that he preferred to awaken into the reality of Auschwitz rather than to do that. Yeah, you see it's the same as what I was telling about that woman's gaze between her legs, how
people don't get here this also brought me a lot of trouble but many feminists accepted it that let's say I simplify it: let's say two women are raped. One is assertive self-assertive emancipated woman, the other is the one who is weak maybe even why not secretly fantasizing about being raped why not people have their. My point was not to my point was of course to argue against this male chauvinist wisdom that many women just call for it even. no my point was that and then speaking with some psychiatrists from Bosnian war where there were many rapes years ago they confirmed this to me. Take two ideal types of course take them and ask yourself which woman would have been more traumatized? Not the self-assertive one, the one who was dreaming about there is almost nothing more violent than to have your most intimate dreams of which you are even ashamed to express them publicly to have them brutally imposed on you from from outside no? So these are paradox and then the typical false feminist approach was but there are no women like that, these are only women who internalized male ideology. No, I think this is an extremely censoring attitude towards women. People have the right to fantasize the nastiest passive victimization and so on. The point is that in no way this justifies if you enacting dreams. This is the greatest violence is to brutally enact what you most intimately dream from outside on you. It's this type of things which can lead to suicide. Yeah. An assertive woman who is raped, it may be painful, horrible, but it doesn't touch her inside. Okay. She will to be vulgar take a good shower and I hope take revenge of the man but she will not be traumatized. While if you attack a woman if you rape her who already is weak in herself fantasizing about it there you can ruin everything. This again brings us back to that comedy as the third here, you know what was also the saddest thing I learned in I learned from Bosnian war experience friends telling me that. It's similar to something that that Primo Levi wrote that when let's say a woman is gang raped, many of them who survived it told us that the most painful thing was not okay it was horrible the act of rape but the way mostly Serbs were doing it is that to do it when they kidnapped or took prisoner of the entire family to do it in front of the girl's father. Mm. And this ruined so much the relationship because father felt incredibly guilty, My God, my girl is there raped I cannot help her. At the same time at a deeper level he felt angry at a girl. Look, she now ruined my life, took my authority from me and so on. And the interesting thing is this one: when did suicide enter, suicides entered the scene of the rape victims of rape? Yeah, the futility sets in. Yeah, yeah, it's the same the crucial dream reported by Primo Levi that once in Auschwitz in the middle of the night he dreamt in Auschwitz in the middle of the night he was dreaming that he survived the war and that he rejoined his family and that he was telling them about his wartime experience and he noticed that they are all getting bored, fall asleep, and at that point he awakens because he was so traumatized by this horror that nobody wants to listen to it that he preferred to awaken into the reality of Auschwitz rather than to do that. Yeah, you see it's the same as what I was telling about that woman's gaze between her legs, how
unknown
the way some event is witnessed socially mediated, it's so it's so important. And again comedy
the way some event is witnessed socially mediated, it's so it's so important. And again comedy
Slavoj Žižek
is always about this. Comedy is always that's why okay there are idiots who laugh at their own jokes, but usually they always do it to save the appearance. Did you encounter such vulgar guys? I like them who tells a joke and then when he notices that nobody is laughing he
is always about this. Comedy is always that's why okay there are idiots who laugh at their own jokes, but usually they always do it to save the appearance. Did you encounter such vulgar guys? I like them who tells a joke and then when he notices that nobody is laughing he
unknown
laughs
laughs
Slavoj Žižek
himself to save his face. Yes! He's his own canned laughter! Yeah, a comedian when a comedian laughs at his joke it is like it's what canned laughter is supposed to provide, like a kind of guidepost for you to realize that what he's saying is funny. Yeah, so again, sorry, I was going to ask you another question which is in the future we're talking about political correctness and maybe the death of humor. Will there come a time when comedy doesn't have to be funny? Will that paradox somehow exist? It'll be comic but not actually funny anymore. It depends what do you mean by it. There was one wonderful joke from prisoners' life that a group of prisoners are together for a year and to pass time they tell jokes to each other, maybe you've heard it, it's a European classic, and then so they have a limited set of jokes and then so they all know these jokes and at the end they are too lazy to tell someone says joke number and everybody starts to laugh and so on. Yeah, yeah. Maybe we will develop into something like this which will be that's funny. what can be another version of this canned laughter you know because you know also again Freud developed this nicely this function of the third party in the joke you know how you depend on a witness and so on. This is where I see the link between joke and sexuality. This is why I always suspect that this is why sexuality implies always some kind of exhibitionism. Even if you are alone you imagine a gaze even if you are not fully aware of it. We are we are never alone. That's the lesson of sexuality. It's never just me and my partner and so on and so on you know. And sometimes me and myself you talking about like an outside version of ourselves looking back at ourselves gazing at ourselves. Yeah, but for okay now we would have to go into psychoanalytic topic I think that we are already split in this way. Lacan has a wonderful distinction he found in Freud although Freud uses the terms in an indistinct way but Lacan sensed a difference between ego ideal and ideal ego. Ideal ego is the ideal image of myself but ego ideal is the ideal point from which I want to see myself. Okay. So you know but this split for Lacan is constitutive of our identity, our and you know at what sense this is true, most of the national identities are built in this way: a nation imagines how it would like to look in the eyes of foreigners. For example one of the first classics Aeschylus' Persians. It's celebration of Greeks but the action takes place in Persian court and who are Greeks these great guys? Or I learned a wonderful detail when I was in Argentina. You know that in Argentina the Gaucho, their myth, these cowboys on pampas all this legend figure, you know that they took them from early English travelers? Their national identity is based on identifying with the with the foreign gaze you know. Right, right, right. So I think it's always this mediation through a foreign gaze. You need it and of course here comedy enters and so on you know because the the dream is then it's all these comical details. Do I have a tiny place where I can be without the other looking at me because I think against cheap theories of paranoia that the true horror is not to be looked at but not to be looked at. Right. When you really have did you see the movie how was it called Project X or what? Uh-huh. I haven't seen it but I know the movie. That that big orgy you know it tells so much about our society I think. You know what's the idea? No? Two guys who are alone parents left for the weekend just put a note on Facebook come and what happens is that people come police has to intervene. Incidentally a similar thing happened a year before in Belgium you know. A local girl put a note on Facebook people came. Wow! But what's so nice in that that's absolutely crucial in that movie this comical aspect. At the beginning when parents leave they tell to their son: listen, we'll be absent but if you want friends, maximum five friends, you have to stay in the living room, don't touch the swimming pool, don't touch the car. Okay. Then orgy explodes, the whole house burns down, the car is ruined and so on. But there is a wonderful detail at the film's end when father comes home first he is shocked everything ruined then he tells to his son: listen, you will have to work hard to cover the expensive but on the other hand I must confess you something I never would have thought you are able to do this. Like appreciation. Uh-huh, like. And that's I think the authentic paternal authority which is not simply oppressive. It literally solicits desire and in a way no and what I am afraid is that both extremes, political correctness and permissivity, want to close this gap. The problem of political correctness is that there are things which work only insofar as they are not strict rules but implicit ambiguous rules of politeness. Mhm. Political correctness tries to legislate what doesn't function if purely legislated. Right. The problem is that if you have this so this is what I try to develop through another joke maybe you heard it I use it in my early books. Why can be permissivity much more oppressive than standard paternal authority? Paternal authority and every authority always leaves you a kind of place in shade, okay you are not allowed to do this but if you have to do it discretely where I don't see you no? Do you know that you as a Jew you should know it you know that that in Decalogue, okay. that prohibition, do not praise other gods blah blah. Right. This is not the exact translation every good guy
himself to save his face. Yes! He's his own canned laughter! Yeah, a comedian when a comedian laughs at his joke it is like it's what canned laughter is supposed to provide, like a kind of guidepost for you to realize that what he's saying is funny. Yeah, so again, sorry, I was going to ask you another question which is in the future we're talking about political correctness and maybe the death of humor. Will there come a time when comedy doesn't have to be funny? Will that paradox somehow exist? It'll be comic but not actually funny anymore. It depends what do you mean by it. There was one wonderful joke from prisoners' life that a group of prisoners are together for a year and to pass time they tell jokes to each other, maybe you've heard it, it's a European classic, and then so they have a limited set of jokes and then so they all know these jokes and at the end they are too lazy to tell someone says joke number and everybody starts to laugh and so on. Yeah, yeah. Maybe we will develop into something like this which will be that's funny. what can be another version of this canned laughter you know because you know also again Freud developed this nicely this function of the third party in the joke you know how you depend on a witness and so on. This is where I see the link between joke and sexuality. This is why I always suspect that this is why sexuality implies always some kind of exhibitionism. Even if you are alone you imagine a gaze even if you are not fully aware of it. We are we are never alone. That's the lesson of sexuality. It's never just me and my partner and so on and so on you know. And sometimes me and myself you talking about like an outside version of ourselves looking back at ourselves gazing at ourselves. Yeah, but for okay now we would have to go into psychoanalytic topic I think that we are already split in this way. Lacan has a wonderful distinction he found in Freud although Freud uses the terms in an indistinct way but Lacan sensed a difference between ego ideal and ideal ego. Ideal ego is the ideal image of myself but ego ideal is the ideal point from which I want to see myself. Okay. So you know but this split for Lacan is constitutive of our identity, our and you know at what sense this is true, most of the national identities are built in this way: a nation imagines how it would like to look in the eyes of foreigners. For example one of the first classics Aeschylus' Persians. It's celebration of Greeks but the action takes place in Persian court and who are Greeks these great guys? Or I learned a wonderful detail when I was in Argentina. You know that in Argentina the Gaucho, their myth, these cowboys on pampas all this legend figure, you know that they took them from early English travelers? Their national identity is based on identifying with the with the foreign gaze you know. Right, right, right. So I think it's always this mediation through a foreign gaze. You need it and of course here comedy enters and so on you know because the the dream is then it's all these comical details. Do I have a tiny place where I can be without the other looking at me because I think against cheap theories of paranoia that the true horror is not to be looked at but not to be looked at. Right. When you really have did you see the movie how was it called Project X or what? Uh-huh. I haven't seen it but I know the movie. That that big orgy you know it tells so much about our society I think. You know what's the idea? No? Two guys who are alone parents left for the weekend just put a note on Facebook come and what happens is that people come police has to intervene. Incidentally a similar thing happened a year before in Belgium you know. A local girl put a note on Facebook people came. Wow! But what's so nice in that that's absolutely crucial in that movie this comical aspect. At the beginning when parents leave they tell to their son: listen, we'll be absent but if you want friends, maximum five friends, you have to stay in the living room, don't touch the swimming pool, don't touch the car. Okay. Then orgy explodes, the whole house burns down, the car is ruined and so on. But there is a wonderful detail at the film's end when father comes home first he is shocked everything ruined then he tells to his son: listen, you will have to work hard to cover the expensive but on the other hand I must confess you something I never would have thought you are able to do this. Like appreciation. Uh-huh, like. And that's I think the authentic paternal authority which is not simply oppressive. It literally solicits desire and in a way no and what I am afraid is that both extremes, political correctness and permissivity, want to close this gap. The problem of political correctness is that there are things which work only insofar as they are not strict rules but implicit ambiguous rules of politeness. Mhm. Political correctness tries to legislate what doesn't function if purely legislated. Right. The problem is that if you have this so this is what I try to develop through another joke maybe you heard it I use it in my early books. Why can be permissivity much more oppressive than standard paternal authority? Paternal authority and every authority always leaves you a kind of place in shade, okay you are not allowed to do this but if you have to do it discretely where I don't see you no? Do you know that you as a Jew you should know it you know that that in Decalogue, okay. that prohibition, do not praise other gods blah blah. Right. This is not the exact translation every good guy
unknown
who really knows the Old Testament will
who really knows the Old Testament will
Slavoj Žižek
tell you it says something which is much more adequately translated as: do not praise our gods in my view. In my. Right, right. fuck you do it there when you are but not and this is how authentic authentic authority function. Do it discreetly. Right. and a good master even knows intensely it slides it discretely. Like the satisfaction of a slave is precisely that you can secretly enjoy out of the out of the master's gaze. Yes. and what I'm afraid is that when you get permissivity this regulation which are supposed to regulate this totally permissive society get much worse. Because they are not like the patriarchal rules which allow you for an opening, you know do it discreetly there, they really want to be rules themselves. Example maybe you know that I like use this one. You are a small boy Sunday afternoon or girl, your father wants you to visit
tell you it says something which is much more adequately translated as: do not praise our gods in my view. In my. Right, right. fuck you do it there when you are but not and this is how authentic authentic authority function. Do it discreetly. Right. and a good master even knows intensely it slides it discretely. Like the satisfaction of a slave is precisely that you can secretly enjoy out of the out of the master's gaze. Yes. and what I'm afraid is that when you get permissivity this regulation which are supposed to regulate this totally permissive society get much worse. Because they are not like the patriarchal rules which allow you for an opening, you know do it discreetly there, they really want to be rules themselves. Example maybe you know that I like use this one. You are a small boy Sunday afternoon or girl, your father wants you to visit
unknown
some crazy old aunt. and okay if your father is a patriarchal father he will tell you something like go to
some crazy old aunt. and okay if your father is a patriarchal father he will tell you something like go to
Slavoj Žižek
grandmother behave properly there or
grandmother behave properly there or
unknown
aunt, that's your duty, I don't care how you feel, you have to do it. I claim no problem with this oppression. In your inner self you will hate your father for doing it you will develop a normal guy against authority. You know what a postmodern permissive father tells you? I don't want to force you into
aunt, that's your duty, I don't care how you feel, you have to do it. I claim no problem with this oppression. In your inner self you will hate your father for doing it you will develop a normal guy against authority. You know what a postmodern permissive father tells you? I don't want to force you into
Slavoj Žižek
anything. Go if you want, if not no. Just beware how much your grandmother or aunt loves you and so on. Here beneath the surface of a free choice it's a much more tough injunction. Yes. What father is telling you is not only go and visit your grandmother but you must freely choose to go and visit your grandmother. And that's the paradox of permissivity and I think that's why psychoanalysis is only today coming to its own time
anything. Go if you want, if not no. Just beware how much your grandmother or aunt loves you and so on. Here beneath the surface of a free choice it's a much more tough injunction. Yes. What father is telling you is not only go and visit your grandmother but you must freely choose to go and visit your grandmother. And that's the paradox of permissivity and I think that's why psychoanalysis is only today coming to its own time
unknown
like
like
Slavoj Žižek
because from the very beginning Freud's problem was not patriarchal oppression but was that a too permissive father who is much worse. Let me take you a very personal confession it was my problem I was My father asked me often did you already have a girl? Do you want me to show you how you would do it and so on? And I find this so obscene, so indecent oppressive, it ruined my life for two three years you know. Proper function of paternity is precisely to create this distance. Yes. To create this small niche, niche is domains where you have your freedom to enjoy. That's why one of the great comical strategies some classical even Chaplin Charlie Chaplin others do it sometimes is that you think you
because from the very beginning Freud's problem was not patriarchal oppression but was that a too permissive father who is much worse. Let me take you a very personal confession it was my problem I was My father asked me often did you already have a girl? Do you want me to show you how you would do it and so on? And I find this so obscene, so indecent oppressive, it ruined my life for two three years you know. Proper function of paternity is precisely to create this distance. Yes. To create this small niche, niche is domains where you have your freedom to enjoy. That's why one of the great comical strategies some classical even Chaplin Charlie Chaplin others do it sometimes is that you think you
unknown
are in this shady domain but all of a sudden you discover everybody sees you, you know this is almost my my my preferred
are in this shady domain but all of a sudden you discover everybody sees you, you know this is almost my my my preferred
Slavoj Žižek
way. So I'm not saying now we should return to patriarchal authority. Right. It's over that. I'm just saying that this standard that's the paradox of political correctness. It's over-regulated permissivity. Right. and that's the danger. That's the danger. Ultimately an illusion of permission, you know, as well. Um, could you put your cup down, I can't have the Starbucks logo. Ah yeah that's true, that's true. Yeah, yeah. How do you, how do you control that? Did anybody tell you that? Well we've been taking the time to take the labels off the water. I know but I don't think that's necessary. I never thought that was necessary either. Okay I can maybe make no you don't want to make fun of. Let's we're almost done it's it's fine. Um, let me ask you: do you think there's a language that's the funniest language? That's some languages like we were in Nigeria and they speak Pidgin when they do stand-up as opposed to their regular English and there's a flow and a rhythm and a kind of a cadence to it that's more fun to listen to in some ways. You know it's not so much that languages are funny, one obsession I have, I like ridiculous mistranslations. That's the funniest aspect. For example in my country Slovenia I remember with the end of communism, you had private TV stations and they were showing many old American blockbusters and uh but they didn't want to spend money for good subtitles so they hired students or not even them and they were like and I remember one wonderful incident, they've shown that stupid Harrison Ford Tom Clancy movie *Clear and Present Danger* where Harrison Ford goes to the president and explodes because CIA bombed a village in Colombia promising it will be a precision surgical strike killing just the narco-traffickers, no, they kill dozens of people, and he goes there to president and shouts: you promised me this will be a surgical strike. You know how the Slovene guy translated it? He took it literally to re-translate into English: you promised me surgeons will be on strike. Now I tried to imagine to take this seriously what would have been why would the president promise? You know I the aspect of language that I like most is when such mistranslations, these comic elements are not simply just a stupid mistake but sometimes a true miracle happens and through this mistake a totally different new domain is opened of under- Marx has this wonderful theory where he claims that the British democracy was the result of mistranslating some medieval documents and so on, you know. Even here with all my sympathy to Palestinians, all my recognition goes to Talmud. You know I quoted two three times that uh it's the highest divine comedy. You know, every idiot can be comical about man, we are finite stupid, only Jews and Christians can do a divine comedy, not in a Dante sense but it's a sense that God himself is even stupid. Do you know that story and I checked it with with Talmud specialists? It's not a joke there are even two versions. It's a Jewish legend, it's sacred text. Two rabbis are debating a theological point and the one who is losing says: well let's call for Jehovah to come to decide. and an old guy comes yes Jehovah comes and then you know what the other guy who was winning the debate does? He shouts at God: listen you old guy, you did your stuff you created the world you did it badly you screwed it up so fuck off. and you know what's Jehovah's answer? Oh my God you are right you are right and here runs away. I think this is much better than all Gnosticism. Right. This idea that and that's also for me the lesson of the Book of Job is that God is all-powerful but morally a barbarian, stupid and so on, you know? Yes. And this is I think this is I think something this type of a comical aspect of God himself. That's maybe I'm ready to call it the ultimate wisdom and so on and so on. And this up to a point survives in Christianity where the way I read Crucifixion it's not God sacrificed his son, isn't in some Gnostic tradition they read Crucifixion as God screwed it up all and he sacrificed his son as a kind of apology to us. Sorry, I will give you my son as an apology because I screwed up creation to that extent and so on, you know? So I really believe then that our this religions of the book Christianity, Judaism it's there the first form of atheism. Can you imagine something more atheist than the Book of Job? Right. Exactly. where the lesson is the true lesson is not is Job being tested and so on but then you remember when Job asks God, okay but why did you did you do it? and God gives that bombastic speech: where were you when I created those monster? Chesterton, my favorite theologian, read this not as a an assertion of divine arrogance of fuck you who are you you don't but as a basically God's answer is: you think only you were in deep trouble but look it's mess everywhere what I created. Yeah, that's funny. and this survives also in Protestant legacy of predestination. Where basically isn't this an extremely cruel brutal God? He just plays dice, you are condemned or redeemed before and independently of what you will do and so on and so on. So I am, as I define myself, I am a Christian atheist. I define myself you know that there is a lesson which is so important that paradoxically most of materialists for me are not true
way. So I'm not saying now we should return to patriarchal authority. Right. It's over that. I'm just saying that this standard that's the paradox of political correctness. It's over-regulated permissivity. Right. and that's the danger. That's the danger. Ultimately an illusion of permission, you know, as well. Um, could you put your cup down, I can't have the Starbucks logo. Ah yeah that's true, that's true. Yeah, yeah. How do you, how do you control that? Did anybody tell you that? Well we've been taking the time to take the labels off the water. I know but I don't think that's necessary. I never thought that was necessary either. Okay I can maybe make no you don't want to make fun of. Let's we're almost done it's it's fine. Um, let me ask you: do you think there's a language that's the funniest language? That's some languages like we were in Nigeria and they speak Pidgin when they do stand-up as opposed to their regular English and there's a flow and a rhythm and a kind of a cadence to it that's more fun to listen to in some ways. You know it's not so much that languages are funny, one obsession I have, I like ridiculous mistranslations. That's the funniest aspect. For example in my country Slovenia I remember with the end of communism, you had private TV stations and they were showing many old American blockbusters and uh but they didn't want to spend money for good subtitles so they hired students or not even them and they were like and I remember one wonderful incident, they've shown that stupid Harrison Ford Tom Clancy movie *Clear and Present Danger* where Harrison Ford goes to the president and explodes because CIA bombed a village in Colombia promising it will be a precision surgical strike killing just the narco-traffickers, no, they kill dozens of people, and he goes there to president and shouts: you promised me this will be a surgical strike. You know how the Slovene guy translated it? He took it literally to re-translate into English: you promised me surgeons will be on strike. Now I tried to imagine to take this seriously what would have been why would the president promise? You know I the aspect of language that I like most is when such mistranslations, these comic elements are not simply just a stupid mistake but sometimes a true miracle happens and through this mistake a totally different new domain is opened of under- Marx has this wonderful theory where he claims that the British democracy was the result of mistranslating some medieval documents and so on, you know. Even here with all my sympathy to Palestinians, all my recognition goes to Talmud. You know I quoted two three times that uh it's the highest divine comedy. You know, every idiot can be comical about man, we are finite stupid, only Jews and Christians can do a divine comedy, not in a Dante sense but it's a sense that God himself is even stupid. Do you know that story and I checked it with with Talmud specialists? It's not a joke there are even two versions. It's a Jewish legend, it's sacred text. Two rabbis are debating a theological point and the one who is losing says: well let's call for Jehovah to come to decide. and an old guy comes yes Jehovah comes and then you know what the other guy who was winning the debate does? He shouts at God: listen you old guy, you did your stuff you created the world you did it badly you screwed it up so fuck off. and you know what's Jehovah's answer? Oh my God you are right you are right and here runs away. I think this is much better than all Gnosticism. Right. This idea that and that's also for me the lesson of the Book of Job is that God is all-powerful but morally a barbarian, stupid and so on, you know? Yes. And this is I think this is I think something this type of a comical aspect of God himself. That's maybe I'm ready to call it the ultimate wisdom and so on and so on. And this up to a point survives in Christianity where the way I read Crucifixion it's not God sacrificed his son, isn't in some Gnostic tradition they read Crucifixion as God screwed it up all and he sacrificed his son as a kind of apology to us. Sorry, I will give you my son as an apology because I screwed up creation to that extent and so on, you know? So I really believe then that our this religions of the book Christianity, Judaism it's there the first form of atheism. Can you imagine something more atheist than the Book of Job? Right. Exactly. where the lesson is the true lesson is not is Job being tested and so on but then you remember when Job asks God, okay but why did you did you do it? and God gives that bombastic speech: where were you when I created those monster? Chesterton, my favorite theologian, read this not as a an assertion of divine arrogance of fuck you who are you you don't but as a basically God's answer is: you think only you were in deep trouble but look it's mess everywhere what I created. Yeah, that's funny. and this survives also in Protestant legacy of predestination. Where basically isn't this an extremely cruel brutal God? He just plays dice, you are condemned or redeemed before and independently of what you will do and so on and so on. So I am, as I define myself, I am a Christian atheist. I define myself you know that there is a lesson which is so important that paradoxically most of materialists for me are not true
unknown
materialists you know. Well are you suggesting that God
materialists you know. Well are you suggesting that God
Slavoj Žižek
is the ultimate
is the ultimate
unknown
comedian then? Absolutely! That's isn't this the lesson of Protestantism or of that story story from the Talmud and so on and so on? Yes. Yes! God is the ultimate what would the Isaac
comedian then? Absolutely! That's isn't this the lesson of Protestantism or of that story story from the Talmud and so on and so on? Yes. Yes! God is the ultimate what would the Isaac
Slavoj Žižek
Asimov the jokester you know? Yes, yes, yeah right right. All right I think I think we're we're good. Thanks very much and sorry. No no no no no. No no what do you mean? Please yes yes yes I give you I give you all the right. Ah you know the the the nice joke there was a debate in England in philosophy and a professor claimed that while double no can be a yes double yes cannot be a no. and he got an immediate answer from another famous philosopher. You know what he just said? Yeah yeah. It means no! Perfect! Yeah it's perfect you know. So so so I'm so I liked ah the last my Jewish joke I love them. When I was in Israel the first time I was I had a longer beard I looked a little bit like Rasputin madman. Okay. And I gave an interview there to some daily newspaper and they asked me why am I not practicing psychoanalysis? Okay I gave them my standard answer. First part is look at me like don't you see I'm a madman that like who would take me? Yeah, who would be your patient? Yeah. Second answer was look I talk all the time. Can you imagine me for more than seconds just sitting there and listening? But the third answer was the sincere one and it's true. You know when you are in a tense situation of tension close to psychotic breakdown, one wrong gesture, you say the wrong word, it can push the patient to final men and that I wouldn't be able to sustain that tension. Mmm. My God I was so this should be your ideal. I was so beautifully manipulated. You know what was the title next day how they read this with one. they took a very Rasputin mad monk image on me and the big title: Slavoj Žižek, I can kill a person with one word, you know. As if I meant that, you know? It was so I like so another did you see that wonderful documentary *The Thin Blue Line*? Yes of course. That somebody says that has this wonderful phrase which I apply to journalism you know that every idiotic prosecutor can get a guilty person convicted, it takes a really good prosecutor to take an innocent person convicted. Every idiotic guy who does interviews like you can faithfully reproduce what I said. It takes a really good interviewer to do the montage so that respecting my works you make me say the opposite of it! Yes! Please live up at the level. That's my goal. That's that should be your goal! Yes, great. Thank you so much for talking, it's been great to meet you. I enjoyed it. Just a cut it short do it. Don't worry, I cannot get out of my vulgar anti-Semitic jokes and where for that yes so but when it gets to money or what. That's where he draws the line exactly. He'd be happy to meet you, I'm excited. But I'm so did you tell me this or your assistant, it's so strange that that she is not that he that the house where Curb Your Enthusiasm it's not really his house? No. I thought it would be. In fact we have to change the house every season because the neighbors get upset with us for using the house, we rent that house for the year. This is so stupid. So in other words they are not proud
Asimov the jokester you know? Yes, yes, yeah right right. All right I think I think we're we're good. Thanks very much and sorry. No no no no no. No no what do you mean? Please yes yes yes I give you I give you all the right. Ah you know the the the nice joke there was a debate in England in philosophy and a professor claimed that while double no can be a yes double yes cannot be a no. and he got an immediate answer from another famous philosopher. You know what he just said? Yeah yeah. It means no! Perfect! Yeah it's perfect you know. So so so I'm so I liked ah the last my Jewish joke I love them. When I was in Israel the first time I was I had a longer beard I looked a little bit like Rasputin madman. Okay. And I gave an interview there to some daily newspaper and they asked me why am I not practicing psychoanalysis? Okay I gave them my standard answer. First part is look at me like don't you see I'm a madman that like who would take me? Yeah, who would be your patient? Yeah. Second answer was look I talk all the time. Can you imagine me for more than seconds just sitting there and listening? But the third answer was the sincere one and it's true. You know when you are in a tense situation of tension close to psychotic breakdown, one wrong gesture, you say the wrong word, it can push the patient to final men and that I wouldn't be able to sustain that tension. Mmm. My God I was so this should be your ideal. I was so beautifully manipulated. You know what was the title next day how they read this with one. they took a very Rasputin mad monk image on me and the big title: Slavoj Žižek, I can kill a person with one word, you know. As if I meant that, you know? It was so I like so another did you see that wonderful documentary *The Thin Blue Line*? Yes of course. That somebody says that has this wonderful phrase which I apply to journalism you know that every idiotic prosecutor can get a guilty person convicted, it takes a really good prosecutor to take an innocent person convicted. Every idiotic guy who does interviews like you can faithfully reproduce what I said. It takes a really good interviewer to do the montage so that respecting my works you make me say the opposite of it! Yes! Please live up at the level. That's my goal. That's that should be your goal! Yes, great. Thank you so much for talking, it's been great to meet you. I enjoyed it. Just a cut it short do it. Don't worry, I cannot get out of my vulgar anti-Semitic jokes and where for that yes so but when it gets to money or what. That's where he draws the line exactly. He'd be happy to meet you, I'm excited. But I'm so did you tell me this or your assistant, it's so strange that that she is not that he that the house where Curb Your Enthusiasm it's not really his house? No. I thought it would be. In fact we have to change the house every season because the neighbors get upset with us for using the house, we rent that house for the year. This is so stupid. So in other words they are not proud
unknown
that oh. No they're annoyed. they're annoyed because the reality
that oh. No they're annoyed. they're annoyed because the reality
Slavoj Žižek
is there's people there's noise going on all the time. Yeah, okay but on the other hand you have a bad
is there's people there's noise going on all the time. Yeah, okay but on the other hand you have a bad
unknown
neighbor
neighbor
Slavoj Žižek
you have basically a bad neighbor you know. And you know what I like, the part I most like in that series is how you get the real stars playing small like how's that called in one series Elizabeth Banks how she get a crush on him. Yes, Salman Rushdie was on recently. I saw that one! If there's another season you should do a cameo too. Fatwa, Fatwa, I know him I met him a couple in other. He was very good he was very funny in the show. How did you get him? How did you get him? You know there's an agent involved, I don't know how they get them but they're very easy to get. People want to be on the show. And you know which part it was vulgar but lovely vulgar. You remember when he gets fucked by a Palestinian woman? Yes! And she shouts oh I will fuck you your. That's where it gets so- A lot of these clips that you're talking about from Curb illustrate a lot of the things that we've been talking about. Precisely that's what I wanted to say. Let's just pray to God that he will not fall into some of no I believe he is a good guy privately but in these crazy times when he will get now stigmatized as violent, political, correct, you never know. Well he is the anti-Trump in a lot of ways because he has the same instincts of expressing himself that Trump does, kind of an uncensored, no governor, no editor.
you have basically a bad neighbor you know. And you know what I like, the part I most like in that series is how you get the real stars playing small like how's that called in one series Elizabeth Banks how she get a crush on him. Yes, Salman Rushdie was on recently. I saw that one! If there's another season you should do a cameo too. Fatwa, Fatwa, I know him I met him a couple in other. He was very good he was very funny in the show. How did you get him? How did you get him? You know there's an agent involved, I don't know how they get them but they're very easy to get. People want to be on the show. And you know which part it was vulgar but lovely vulgar. You remember when he gets fucked by a Palestinian woman? Yes! And she shouts oh I will fuck you your. That's where it gets so- A lot of these clips that you're talking about from Curb illustrate a lot of the things that we've been talking about. Precisely that's what I wanted to say. Let's just pray to God that he will not fall into some of no I believe he is a good guy privately but in these crazy times when he will get now stigmatized as violent, political, correct, you never know. Well he is the anti-Trump in a lot of ways because he has the same instincts of expressing himself that Trump does, kind of an uncensored, no governor, no editor.
unknown
That would be a
That would be a
Slavoj Žižek
wonderful attack on Trump like not that you are vulgar but sorry I am the big vulgar guy! You don't have the right to steal. That's right! There's competition for that for that mantle, yes. No I would love to,
wonderful attack on Trump like not that you are vulgar but sorry I am the big vulgar guy! You don't have the right to steal. That's right! There's competition for that for that mantle, yes. No I would love to,
unknown
when you come to Los Angeles we will we will
when you come to Los Angeles we will we will
Slavoj Žižek
arrange that.
arrange that.
unknown
That would be my pleasure. We'll
That would be my pleasure. We'll
Slavoj Žižek
have
have
unknown
time. Listen thanks very much.
time. Listen thanks very much.
Slavoj Žižek
Thank you, thank you very much! Now I go to take my sleep or whatever because I came yesterday. What for an idiot. Do you have more to do
Thank you, thank you very much! Now I go to take my sleep or whatever because I came yesterday. What for an idiot. Do you have more to do
unknown
today or can you just rest? Sorry? Do you have more
today or can you just rest? Sorry? Do you have more
Slavoj Žižek
stuff to do today? No just a bureaucratic
stuff to do today? No just a bureaucratic
unknown
stuff not a problem. Okay, okay. I just have to go to
stuff not a problem. Okay, okay. I just have to go to
Slavoj Žižek
the university now to because tomorrow
the university now to because tomorrow
unknown
I sorry. Yeah, yeah
I sorry. Yeah, yeah
Slavoj Žižek
we'll take we'll take. So where are you heading?
we'll take we'll take. So where are you heading?
unknown
Take a couple. Take an extra couple. You know that I'm afraid
Take a couple. Take an extra couple. You know that I'm afraid
Slavoj Žižek
of doing
of doing
unknown
pictures, I don't
pictures, I don't
Slavoj Žižek
have any pictures of myself. Really? I'll have to
have any pictures of myself. Really? I'll have to
unknown
send you one
send you one
Slavoj Žižek
of
of
unknown
these. No! Well
these. No! Well
Slavoj Žižek
you're
you're
unknown
a very, you're a very well-chronicled person, you have a lot of photographs that are
a very, you're a very well-chronicled person, you have a lot of photographs that are
Slavoj Žižek
in the
in the
unknown
world.
world.
Slavoj Žižek
But none
But none
unknown
of them
of them
Slavoj Žižek
by me.
by me.